The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

[khlaylav]

I sorta want to bust out an unpopular opinion regarding boss mons not having four moves all the time, but I'll save that for later. Right now, I just want to praise Iono's Mismagius for being strong but not overpowering; yes, it can rack up Special Attack boosts with Charge Beam, confuse with Confuse Ray and then bop the confused mons with Hex. But, if you have a Normal type and a Ground type, clever switching can help with that. Plus, the use of Tera type Electric to remove all weaknesses is probably the most clever use of the mechanic in the game.

On that note, memeworthy as Sudowoodo finally becoming a Grass type is, it's also clever considering it can buff its Speed with Trailblaze and bop any Fire and Flying types with Rock Throw. Perfect? No. But I think those two are really good examples of the new mechanic in action.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

bop the confused mons with Hex

Hex doesn't actually deal double damage against confused mons! It's only non-volatile status conditions that boost it. I think Hex was picked as her STAB move because it's threatening from a fully-evolved Level 24 mon but not overbearing.

 

[khlaylav]

Hex doesn't actually deal double damage against confused mons! It's only non-volatile status conditions that boost it. I think Hex was picked as her STAB move because it's threatening from a fully-evolved Level 24 mon but not overbearing.

... Ya learn something new every day! Regardless, think it speaks to the larger point. Powerful, not overwhelming.

 

[IcyMan28]

... Ya learn something new every day! Regardless, think it speaks to the larger point. Powerful, not overwhelming.

Speaking of powerful but not overwhelmingly so, I actually think Mismagius was cheated out of gaining the Fairy type back in gen 6. It would have been a great way to distinguish it from Gengar and also gives it powerful coverage but off good-but-not-great stats of 105/105/105. It even fits with her category as the Magical Pokémon. Obviously the inspo is there because 4 gens later we got Flutter Mane who is just complete overkill.

 

[khlaylav]

Saying that someone is the best Ice-type Gym Leader is a bit like saying you're the strongest first grader, but even so I think Candice has a solid team, especially in Platinum. Her team in Diamond and Pearl does nothing to take advantage of the permanent Hail from Snover, but in Platinum, her surprise Piloswine with Earthquake and especially her Froslass that's very capable of abusing Double Team and Snow Cloak to screw with your team are much appreciated. Her mixed Abomasnow also has some cheeky moves to hit its many weaknesses like Water Pulse and Focus Blast. Perfect? Arceus, no. Is it enough to actually be an amazing seventh gym leader? Probably not. But it's better than freakin Wulfric, I'll tell ya that much. Though her Sneasel is bad in both versions beyond Aerial Ace to possibly dent Infernape.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Brock's ace being Onix puts him in such an awkward position in all games where he's not faced as the first Gym Leader. The Kanto gym leaders are more novelty fights than anything else in GSC, with the possible exception of Blue, but Brock's the most unthreatening of the bunch because he's got an otherwise relatively decent team, except for his underwhelming signature mon.

In B2W2 he's forced to lead with Onix: in the Kanto leaders tournament it's basically a suicide lead which can only set up Stealth Rock or Sandstorm, holding a Salac Berry to get a second move in and hoping it'll have Sturdy to trigger it. In the Type Expert tournament he gives it basically the only other sensible choice: an Eviolite. Neither make it particularly viable and it's the worst Pokemon on both lineups.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

Brock's ace being Onix puts him in such an awkward position in all games where he's not faced as the first Gym Leader. The Kanto gym leaders are more novelty fights than anything else in GSC, with the possible exception of Blue, but Brock's the most unthreatening of the bunch because he's got an otherwise relatively decent team, except for his underwhelming signature mon.

In B2W2 he's forced to lead with Onix: in the Kanto leaders tournament it's basically a suicide lead which can only set up Stealth Rock or Sandstorm, holding a Salac Berry to get a second move in and hoping it'll have Sturdy to trigger it. In the Type Expert tournament he gives it basically the only other sensible choice: an Eviolite. Neither make it particularly viable and it's the worst Pokemon on both lineups.

at least other earlygame leaders can evolve their aces for rematches :pensive: poor guy

 

[KalosianPorygon]

Brock's ace being Onix puts him in such an awkward position in all games where he's not faced as the first Gym Leader. The Kanto gym leaders are more novelty fights than anything else in GSC, with the possible exception of Blue, but Brock's the most unthreatening of the bunch because he's got an otherwise relatively decent team, except for his underwhelming signature mon.

Janine: Am I not a joke to you?

 

[Hugin]

Janine: Am I not a joke to you?

Janine can at least pretend to be threatening. She leads with something immune to Ground, has Explosion for Psychic-types, and in the Remakes/Rematches has Levitate and Bug moves. Not to mention her entire team is fully evolved. She sucks like all Kanto teams, but there's ways she can handle problems. Brock loses to one equal-level mon with Giga Drain.

 

[SturdyShedinja]

I think Evice from pokemon colosseum is the only boss fight in the series I'd criticize for being too difficult.

Evice's Team

On it's own merits, the team is incredible. DD salamence is a menace, SD pass scizor can be devastating to teams without a fire move, and of course, slaking + skill swap is a brutal combination. Evice's team packs an enormous punch with the type diversity and bulk to withstand blows from most attackers while punishing defensive play with a variety of setup tools. However, most of his pokemon have exploitable weaknesses that most good teams should be able to exploit. Except, of course, that this is pokemon colosseum.

For starters, the player's options for snaggable pokemon are very limited, and only a few of them quite match the power of Evice's team. Of the 40ish total options players could reasonably bring to this fight, most of them are mediocre johto pokemon like sneasel, murkrow, delibird, and ledian. There are some diamonds in the rough, like the legendary beasts and the starters, espeon and umbreon, but most teams will have at least a couple members that just can't compete with this level of power, especially as early game monsters like jumpluff and quagsire fall off. It doesn't help that there are no hms and only a handful of tms available to the player, which means that water and flying types have extremely mediocre stab options if they don't happen to come with surf or fly. It also hurts that flamethrower and ice beam are locked behind Mt Battle, so very few pokemon can actually exploit the 4x weaknesses of scizor and salamence.

There are a couple other minor nitpicks, such as the player not being able to change their leads after a 5 trainer gauntlet containing another boss fight and Evice's leads being completely random, but most players could probably still beat Evice in a couple of tries even with their limited options through sheer strategy. Except that Evice's pokemon are an absurd level 61! For context, the regular trainers in the area use pokemon around level 40-45, the cipher admin refights cap out at level 50, and the Gonzap battle directly before the gauntlet was level 53. The average player could be anwhere from 10-15 levels underleved depending on their team composition and how much side content they did.

So, for a team far surpassing anything the player could realistically create and an absurd level spike, Evice is the only boss fight in the series that I'd call outright unfair. I can only hope the final boss of XD isn't as cheap.

Yes, I had to spam items to win and I'm salty, how could you tell?

 

[pika pal]

I think Evice from pokemon colosseum is the only boss fight in the series I'd criticize for being too difficult.

Evice's Team

View attachment 578028

On it's own merits, the team is incredible. DD salamence is a menace, SD pass scizor can be devastating to teams without a fire move, and of course, slaking + skill swap is a brutal combination. Evice's team packs an enormous punch with the type diversity and bulk to withstand blows from most attackers while punishing defensive play with a variety of setup tools. However, most of his pokemon have exploitable weaknesses that most good teams should be able to exploit. Except, of course, that this is pokemon colosseum.

For starters, the player's options for snaggable pokemon are very limited, and only a few of them quite match the power of Evice's team. Of the 40ish total options players could reasonably bring to this fight, most of them are mediocre johto pokemon like sneasel, murkrow, delibird, and ledian. There are some diamonds in the rough, like the legendary beasts and the starters, espeon and umbreon, but most teams will have at least a couple members that just can't compete with this level of power, especially as early game monsters like jumpluff and quagsire fall off. It doesn't help that there are no hms and only a handful of tms available to the player, which means that water and flying types have extremely mediocre stab options if they don't happen to come with surf or fly. It also hurts that flamethrower and ice beam are locked behind Mt Battle, so very few pokemon can actually exploit the 4x weaknesses of scizor and salamence.

There are a couple other minor nitpicks, such as the player not being able to change their leads after a 5 trainer gauntlet containing another boss fight and Evice's leads being completely random, but most players could probably still beat Evice in a couple of tries even with their limited options through sheer strategy. Except that Evice's pokemon are an absurd level 61! For context, the regular trainers in the area use pokemon around level 40-45, the cipher admin refights cap out at level 50, and the Gonzap battle directly before the gauntlet was level 53. The average player could be anwhere from 10-15 levels underleved depending on their team composition and how much side content they did.

So, for a team far surpassing anything the player could realistically create and an absurd level spike, Evice is the only boss fight in the series that I'd call outright unfair. I can only hope the final boss of XD isn't as cheap.

Yes, I had to spam items to win and I'm salty, how could you tell?

Evice I think is kept in check by the two things that plague any Pokemon boss: Item discrepancy and Pokemon AI. Evice’s Pokemon work well IF he pilots them right, but if, say, his Slowking goes down because he sent it put separate from Slaking, that’s two semi-Teethless Pokemon on top of Tyranitar being a pseudo OHKO if you saved the Masterball for it as the game is encouraging. Other small issues can include using Dragon Claw with his Salamence or Scizor being hard to do damage into several types with its STABs even with SD. Most infamous example I’ve seen of Pokemon AI is in Chuggaaconroy’s LP, in which Evice down to a weakened Machamp and Ttar vs Emile’s Quagsire X Attacks both his mons instead of going for the KO, losing to Machamp on EQ that turn and the Snag next.

Evice also has the give-and-take of his team being a few cores instead of a singular strategy like Miror B.’s Rain Stall or Dakim being all EQ/Protect or Sun/Solarbeam, so it’s kind of fighting six strong solos vs your weaker but probably more cohesive team, with several aspects being shut down by some of the game’s common utility like Intimidate (such as Granbull or Hitmontop) or Taunt for their set up moves. In essence he feels hard because they bulked him up to offset the usual AI boss hurdles

 

[Eeveeto]

That Evice dude is so based that the only held item he has is a Nugget on Tyranitar, lol. Next level of swag.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

on top of Tyranitar being a pseudo OHKO if you saved the Masterball for it as the game is encouraging.

Lack of items and Pokemon Ai definitely hold Evice back for sure, but saving the Master Ball for Tyranitar might not be a possible move for an average player given that Evice is more or less a surprise final boss. Yes there is foreshadowing for it, but if you don't make a habit of talking to NPCs, you really only get the Nascour hint...which was like 20 hours ago, at the very start of the adventure. Even Ein doesn't foreshadow Tyranitar directly either, he simply calls it "the ultimate Shadow Pokémon"...which could realistically apply to Metagross as well as Tyrantiar - both are psuedo-legendaries after all.

I can very easily see the average blind player using the Master Ball on Metagross given how Nascour's design screams "I'm evil." The only off thing about that battle is that there's no music at all.

Even if you caught that foreshadowing and didn't use the Master Ball on Metagross, Evice is just not fun. He has more or less an OU team whereas 80% of Colosseum's options blow chunks and probably won't be level matching against him unless you go out of your way to grind at the very end, which drags the game to a crawl and is about as bad as the endgame difficulty spike in DPPT. The only remotely acceptable design decisions with Evice are that A) you are fully healed beforehand and B) you can rematch him instantly if you lose unlike Nascour, but both mean next to nothing with how much the deck is stacked against you.

Really, level spiking with the bosses is a problem I have with Colosseum in general. One reason I love XD is because it has an actually balanced level curve, which goes a long way in keeping me engaged in the adventure.

 

[Castersvarog]

Lack of items and Pokemon Ai definitely hold Evice back for sure, but saving the Master Ball for Tyranitar might not be a possible move for an average player given that Evice is more or less a surprise final boss. Yes there is foreshadowing for it, but if you don't make a habit of talking to NPCs, you really only get the Nascour hint...which was like 20 hours ago, at the very start of the adventure. Even Ein doesn't foreshadow Tyranitar directly either, he simply calls it "the ultimate Shadow Pokémon"...which could realistically apply to Metagross as well as Tyrantiar - both are psuedo-legendaries after all.

I can very easily see the average blind player using the Master Ball on Metagross given how Nascour's design screams "I'm evil." The only off thing about that battle is that there's no music at all.

Even if you caught that foreshadowing and didn't use the Master Ball on Metagross, Evice is just not fun. He has more or less an OU team whereas 80% of Colosseum's options blow chunks and probably won't be level matching against him unless you go out of your way to grind at the very end, which drags the game to a crawl and is about as bad as the endgame difficulty spike in DPPT. The only remotely acceptable design decisions with Evice are that A) you are fully healed beforehand and B) you can rematch him instantly if you lose unlike Nascour, but both mean next to nothing with how much the deck is stacked against you.

Really, level spiking with the bosses is a problem I have with Colosseum in general. One reason I love XD is because it has an actually balanced level curve, which goes a long way in keeping me engaged in the adventure.
View attachment 578277

Plus Metagross has an insanely low catch rate, when it’s so strong and you’re up against what felt like the final boss, the game itself is practically telling you to use the master ball if only to get it out of the fight comfortably.

 

[KalosianPorygon]

That Evice dude is so based that the only held item he has is a Nugget on Tyranitar, lol. Next level of swag.

Evice is a Rich Boy, confirmed.
Hey, at least one of his Pokémon holds an Item. Many bosses don't even do that.

 

[Just A Seaking]

To be blunt about it, Scarlet and Violet are the only Pokemon games in which I am actively not interested in battling, and that is something I should never feel in a Pokemon game. It's as if battling is a mere distraction that takes away from the experience of exploring the overworld. It's a shame, too, because I think Scarlet and Violet have a lot of potential and I really hope the series draws more from it going forward, but I don't think I'll ever replay it when the boss fights give me almost nothing to look forward to. No game in the series, not even the easier or more dull ones like the aforementioned X and Y or SWSH, actively bore me during boss fights, and that's a real shame how once again, GF proves its inability to take a step forward without taking 3 more back.

Without exaggeration, the Indigo Disk battles are honestly everything I've ever wanted out of Pokemon post-game challenges. Like, I'm legitimately blown away by how great they were. Making this a Part 2 to the previous DLC was an ingenious move, not just for the story but to take into account player progression and make it a real challenge. I was using my in-game, suboptimal squad, so I was genuinely really surprised by just how much I had to struggle to win with some of these fights! I find that even the generic trainers are all pretty well designed, but in my opinion the highlights are:

* Lacey's entire team; in particular, her lead Whimsicott and the Tera-Fairy Excadrill. The Whimsicott is just an amazing lead for a Fairy specialist and does a lot to make her team threatening, not much else to say there. In my original post, I expressed my frustration about every Gym Leader ace just using Tera to get into their assigned type, but I think Lacey actually uses her Excadrill to great effect - its Ground/Steel STABS are perfect for breaking the Poison and Steel types that otherwise threaten her Fairy types, and the Fairy STAB + defensive typing lets it break the Fighting types that it normally struggles against. It's a great fit, both as a team member and as a callback to her dad!

* Crispin's Harvest Exeggutor is such a fun set, I really love it. I wish that he had a Chlorophyll sweeper somewhere on his team - I think Scovillain in particular would be thematically perfect for him - but I love that we have a Fire specialist taking advantage of Sun's properties for Grass types as well.

* Drayton's Kingdra + Archaludon is a great combo, I really love it. His team might be too strong for in-game if he had a Drizzle 'mon of some kind, but I think Rain Dance + Swift Swim Kingdra is a great compromise; lets his Archaludon abuse Electro Shot, and the Kingdra itself becomes a lot scarier once it has Swift Swim up.

* Kieran's team just blows me away, holy shit. Prankster + Sash Grimmsnarl, Intimidate + Fake Out Incineroar, the Tera-Fighting Hydrapple... this is the closest we've ever seen to a proper competitive in-game team in the series, even including Frontier sets, and I really love it. It was mentioned in the Indigo Disk discussion thread by Pika Pal that his team is also set-up very well to counter Ogerpon in all its forms, which I think is a fantastic touch. There are some aspects of the team that are sub-optimal of course - the usage of Hydrapple itself tragically being foremost - but it's an amazing team and I'm really happy to see a fight of this caliber in an in-game context.

* Geeta's actually competent now???? Glimmora as her lead and Kingambit in the back really was the bare minimum change that she needed for her team to be cohesive, but it just works so well; the cherry on top being the Tera-Flying Kingambit, which is more terrifying than it has any right to be. The additions of Chesnaught and especially Dragapult are also nice additions to what was otherwise a very underpowered and underwhelming team before.

In short: I'm sorry, Scarlet and Violet. I underestimated your game. I still hold steadfast to my opinion that the main-game fights, particularly the Gym Leader fights, are frankly embarrassing and should have gone back to the drawing board, but at risk of coming off as hyperbolic, the new fights in the Indigo Disk 100% make up for that. It's a great challenge, and I hope we see more like it going forward.

 

[bdt2002]

View attachment 582115

Without exaggeration, the Indigo Disk battles are honestly everything I've ever wanted out of Pokemon post-game challenges. Like, I'm legitimately blown away by how great they were. Making this a Part 2 to the previous DLC was an ingenious move, not just for the story but to take into account player progression and make it a real challenge. I was using my in-game, suboptimal squad, so I was genuinely really surprised by just how much I had to struggle to win with some of these fights! I find that even the generic trainers are all pretty well designed, but in my opinion the highlights are:

* Lacey's entire team; in particular, her lead Whimsicott and the Tera-Fairy Excadrill. The Whimsicott is just an amazing lead for a Fairy specialist and does a lot to make her team threatening, not much else to say there. In my original post, I expressed my frustration about every Gym Leader ace just using Tera to get into their assigned type, but I think Lacey actually uses her Excadrill to great effect - its Ground/Steel STABS are perfect for breaking the Poison and Steel types that otherwise threaten her Fairy types, and the Fairy STAB + defensive typing lets it break the Fighting types that it normally struggles against. It's a great fit, both as a team member and as a callback to her dad!

* Crispin's Harvest Exeggutor is such a fun set, I really love it. I wish that he had a Chlorophyll sweeper somewhere on his team - I think Scovillain in particular would be thematically perfect for him - but I love that we have a Fire specialist taking advantage of Sun's properties for Grass types as well.

* Drayton's Kingdra + Archaludon is a great combo, I really love it. His team might be too strong for in-game if he had a Drizzle 'mon of some kind, but I think Rain Dance + Swift Swim Kingdra is a great compromise; lets his Archaludon abuse Electro Shot, and the Kingdra itself becomes a lot scarier once it has Swift Swim up.

* Kieran's team just blows me away, holy shit. Prankster + Sash Grimmsnarl, Intimidate + Fake Out Incineroar, the Tera-Fighting Hydrapple... this is the closest we've ever seen to a proper competitive in-game team in the series, even including Frontier sets, and I really love it. It was mentioned in the Indigo Disk discussion thread by Pika Pal that his team is also set-up very well to counter Ogerpon in all its forms, which I think is a fantastic touch. There are some aspects of the team that are sub-optimal of course - the usage of Hydrapple itself tragically being foremost - but it's an amazing team and I'm really happy to see a fight of this caliber in an in-game context.

* Geeta's actually competent now???? Glimmora as her lead and Kingambit in the back really was the bare minimum change that she needed for her team to be cohesive, but it just works so well; the cherry on top being the Tera-Flying Kingambit, which is more terrifying than it has any right to be. The additions of Chesnaught and especially Dragapult are also nice additions to what was otherwise a very underpowered and underwhelming team before.

In short: I'm sorry, Scarlet and Violet. I underestimated your game. I still hold steadfast to my opinion that the main-game fights, particularly the Gym Leader fights, are frankly embarrassing and should have gone back to the drawing board, but at risk of coming off as hyperbolic, the new fights in the Indigo Disk 100% make up for that. It's a great challenge, and I hope we see more like it going forward.

These are all very good points to bring up, and I do want to give Scarlet & Violet credit where credit is due. But as someone who put off finishing The Indigo Disk’s storyline for weeks and only just around to finishing it a couple of days ago because I was bored, I do have a couple of counterpoints I’d like to mention, just for the sake of discussion.

• Aside from the Glimmora and Kingambit change that should have been a thing from the very start, it remains to be seen how competent of a Champion Geeta actually is. To her credit, she might be better than I thought, but unfortunately newer games haven’t allowed for any opportunities for Trainers from different generations to battle each other. In this sense, it’s less about being a Champion and more about how you’d fare against other Champions. She also still treats her workers like crap, but that’s a whole other can of worms
• The Indigo Disk’s emphasis on competitive-style Double Battles is a great idea for longer-tenured fans who want a challenge, but in some points I think it could be a little too much for newer fans to handle all at once. The only other Doubles-centric campaigns we’ve gotten have been the GameCube games, and I’d much rather play those in hindsight since they have their challenging moments while still being more accessible for newer players in the early stages of the game.
• This is a minor nitpick all things considered, but while Kieran does have a pretty well-made competitive Doubles team, it’s not the first time we’ve seen that kind of team building. There’s a hidden postgame battle in ORAS against Wally where he uses what’s effectively a Gen 6 OU team, but that’s Singles so it arguably doesn’t count as a knock against Kieran.
  

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Aside from the Glimmora and Kingambit change that should have been a thing from the very start, it remains to be seen how competent of a Champion Geeta actually is. To her credit, she might be better than I thought, but unfortunately newer games haven’t allowed for any opportunities for Trainers from different generations to battle each other. In this sense, it’s less about being a Champion and more about how you’d fare against other Champions.

I don't understand what you mean by this. I assume that the Pokemon World Tournament would be your main example of interregional/intergenerational battles, but the PWT doesn't give us any insight into the relative strength of different Champions, because the results of battles that don't involve the player appear to be decided randomly.

 

[R_N]

In general it's kind of irrelevant to think of how a champion would "actually" perform because it varies based on medium and most of those mediums don't have them actually face each other and the mediums that do have other considerations. And specific to the games, there's always going to be some segregation between gameplay and story, even on trainers meant to be strong.

 

[bdt2002]

I don't understand what you mean by this. I assume that the Pokemon World Tournament would be your main example of interregional/intergenerational battles, but the PWT doesn't give us any insight into the relative strength of different Champions, because the results of battles that don't involve the player appear to be decided randomly.

In general it's kind of irrelevant to think of how a champion would "actually" perform because it varies based on medium and most of those mediums don't have them actually face each other and the mediums that do have other considerations. And specific to the games, there's always going to be some segregation between gameplay and story, even on trainers meant to be strong.

I'll be honest and admit to both of you that my original post on this matter (the part about Champions and resumé building, to be more specific) is very much opinionated and something I personally wanted to see more of. In older games, the Champions all had some kind of connection with other characters, and sometimes they would even be connections that you wouldn't expect. A great example of this kind of worldbuilding can see seen in B2W2 with Iris. In the span of two years, she "upgraded" from being an eighth-tier Gym Leader (alongside Drayden) to being a Champion who canonically has a win against Alder and most likely Unova's Elite Four as well. Not only that, but one of these Elite Four members is a former Frontier Brain Yes, I know that Darach is the one doing the battling, but it's close enough who herself is supposedly at or around the same level as Cynthia is, or at least in some continuities. So that begs the question- is Iris in the games technically stronger than Cynthia? It's impossible to answer questions like this, of course, but my point is, other Champions often come with extra perks that help validate their Champion status:

• Red should be self explanatory by this point, I hope
• Blue has a win over Lance, and both him and Red were invited to Alola's Battle Tree
• Lance upgraded from being an Elite Four member to a Champion, and has an eighth-tier Gym Leader in his family
• Steven and Wallace, depending on the game version, are probably on each other's level on average
  • Depending on how you choose to look at things, that technically means an eighth-tier Gym Leader has Champion-level potential, but even in the Emerald series of events, Wallace's own mentor takes his place
• Cynthia possibly comes from a long line of strong battlers (see Volo) and has connections with an Elite Four member and former Frontier Brain
  • She was invited to the Battle Tree also, if that means anything
• Alder is training rivals with an Elite Four member and probably could have won against N if it wasn't for his Legendary
• Speaking of which, N has a win over Alder and befriended a Legendary Pokémon
• Iris has a win over Alder and saw incredible improvement over just two years

Admittedly, the Champions' resumés start falling off a cliff starting in X & Y with Diantha, with only Leon, Mustard, and Kieran having any notable results out of the group of Champions we've seen since then. These pre-established details go a long way in making older Champion battles so much more rewarding, at least in my opinion, regardless of if we ever see anything remotely close to the PWT again. Also no, Pokémon Masters doesn't count before anyone asks

 

[R_N]

I'll be honest and admit to both of you that my original post on this matter (the part about Champions and resumé building, to be more specific) is very much opinionated and something I personally wanted to see more of. In older games, the Champions all had some kind of connection with other characters, and sometimes they would even be connections that you wouldn't expect. A great example of this kind of worldbuilding can see seen in B2W2 with Iris. In the span of two years, she "upgraded" from being an eighth-tier Gym Leader (alongside Drayden) to being a Champion who canonically has a win against Alder and most likely Unova's Elite Four as well. Not only that, but one of these Elite Four members is a former Frontier Brain Yes, I know that Darach is the one doing the battling, but it's close enough who herself is supposedly at or around the same level as Cynthia is, or at least in some continuities. So that begs the question- is Iris in the games technically stronger than Cynthia? It's impossible to answer questions like this, of course, but my point is, other Champions often come with extra perks that help validate their Champion status:

• Red should be self explanatory by this point, I hope
• Blue has a win over Lance, and both him and Red were invited to Alola's Battle Tree
• Lance upgraded from being an Elite Four member to a Champion, and has an eighth-tier Gym Leader in his family
• Steven and Wallace, depending on the game version, are probably on each other's level on average
  • Depending on how you choose to look at things, that technically means an eighth-tier Gym Leader has Champion-level potential, but even in the Emerald series of events, Wallace's own mentor takes his place
• Cynthia possibly comes from a long line of strong battlers (see Volo) and has connections with an Elite Four member and former Frontier Brain
  • She was invited to the Battle Tree also, if that means anything
• Alder is training rivals with an Elite Four member and probably could have won against N if it wasn't for his Legendary
• Speaking of which, N has a win over Alder and befriended a Legendary Pokémon
• Iris has a win over Alder and saw incredible improvement over just two years

Admittedly, the Champions' resumés start falling off a cliff starting in X & Y with Diantha, with only Leon, Mustard, and Kieran having any notable results out of the group of Champions we've seen since then. These pre-established details go a long way in making older Champion battles so much more rewarding, at least in my opinion, regardless of if we ever see anything remotely close to the PWT again. Also no, Pokémon Masters doesn't count before anyone asks

Those character connections never really went away, though
Geeta has arguably the most connections period in this situation then considering she runs the entire league, actively acts as boss to every gym leader and E4 member, is on the Academy's school board, I believe helped create the Tera Blast TM, has at least passing involvement, keeps contact with Nemona specifically (even trusting her with....something....which is never elaborated on actually that's still weird; and of course reaching out to us (& blueberry) to help resolve another loose end) and so on.
Her fingers are in many pies in the going ons around Paldea and despite only being properly introduced in the Victory Road story her reach is fairly widespread. It's always been notable to me that the post game had us get a feel for what all the leaders feel about her and most of it isn't lavish praise; it's insight you basically never get for other champions.


But hey since we're here...
Alola didn't really have a champion but if we look at our nearest neighbors its:
-Kukui who had enough pull to reach out to former island challengers, kahunas to create a League, is directly connected to prior generations through his wife Burnnet, personally knew the Team Skull leader, gave Lillie a place to stay...
-Hau, the grandson of an island kahuna and then depending on the game said Kahuna is also an E4 member or Hau himself is helping rehabilitate Team Skull members in the post game.

Meanwhile Leon:
-Trained under a former Galar champion in Mustard
-Was in close contact with Rose since he was the chariman of the league (& also like every other business venture in Galar...)
-Brother to your main rival
-While as Champion he obviously has to deal with the various leaders aiming for his head I'll just focus that he had a major rival in Raihan specifically, the 8th gym leader and the only other person other than you considered to give him a run for his money
-Childhood friends with Sonia, future professor of the region, and as such also knew Magnolia, current professor.
-Helped rehabilitate Sordward & Shielbert. They may be dunces no one cares about but they lead a post game and helped finance the Stars Tournament they count its fine.

Mustard obviously trained Leon but his Dojo also serves as a training ground for the other leaders, including up & comers; also his little dialog with Opal implies they were closer. Peony is brother to Rose (& implied father to Penny, which is fun)


Diantha's the only real loser here, sadly. She had a speech with Lysandre but that's about it that I can recall outside of "implied by her position" connections. Ah well, maybe in a future Kalos revisit....

 

[Bakugames]

I still subscribe that red being the strongest champion is a lore thing only, I think he's one of the more mediocre/middle of the road gamewise

He has a reputation not because his team is uniquely well built (you're basically doing a 5v6 because even with high level gaps, pikachu does absolutely nothing, and it's the only mon really bumping the average levels of his team), but because of the insane grind which forces people to have massive gaps in level and stats or just wasting hours to get to his level. If you battle him at the same level range, he's actually not that hard. Both versions of his team have pretty easy to exploit gaps, from overlapping weaknesses to weird/useless movepool choices (why is hgss snorlax running 2 special non stab moves that thing hits like a wet noodle on the special side. why did it lose rest. why does espeon only have 2 good moves LOL).

I give more weight to a battle that can be challenging while being on the same level as yours, because that means losing the breathing room of level gap advantage and needing to make use of every teamslot and moveslot proper. This in turn leads to more options for a player to win. Some can grind/exp candy, and that's fine, but you can also try new team setups and moves and strategies. This to me is more important than raw difficulty, it engages the player to try out new ways to beat someone, instead of just being a "either grind for ages or just bullshit bruteforce it".

 

[Coronis]

lol thats not how you rate a champion or trainer at all..

 

[Axiemeister]

I still subscribe that red being the strongest champion is a lore thing only,

the champion discussion in this page has been almost entirely lore based. i don't disagree that red's teams are less well constructed than the ones that came later, but it's kind of an unfair comparison. the HGSS team obviously focused on lore (volt tackle pikachu, starters with the elemental hyper beams, etc) and by gen 4 they didn't really think too, too hard on enemy movesets yet anyway. the battle tree entrance fight is more representative.

going back to lore, diantha never had a chance because kalos so, so clearly was meant to have a third game and then didn't. the elite four levels don't even increase on a rematch in XY, which had been customary since platinum. when gamefreak finally gives kalos its proper time in the spotlight, we will know what the trainers from here truly mean in lore.

 

[Hugin]

If we're talking about which is supposed to feel strongest, I think there's a few standout options: Blue, Cynthia, Iris, Diantha, and Leon. These are trainers with rare mons, pseudo-legends, and stuff known for it's potency. Leon throwing out an Aegislash or Blue's whole team of Psychics and stone evos are designed to tell the player to wake up and put effort into this fight in a way that a good monotype team or a bunch of Starters doesn't do.

That doesn't mean those trainers are actually the hardest to fight for various reasons, but I think they're built with more intent than certain other Champions.