The Best Butterfly?

[Bologo]

There's a bajillion things that can be immune to Spikes like Butterfree. Venomoth is one that can ABSORB Toxic Spikes with the non-levitating poison typing though, which is quite hard to find.

Plus, he's one of the few that can absorb Toxic Spikes but not get murdered by Ground attacks. His 4x resists are also a lot nicer than Butterfree's. 4x resist to Fighting and Grass is awesome. Something like Breloom can get eaten for breakfast by him.

That poison typing helps out Venomoth a lot more than the Flying for Butterfree. A lot of things have so much trouble switching into Venomoth unless they 4x resist Bug at first.

Plus he can also surprise the opponent switching in by laying down some Toxic Spikes and if you don't want to use Toxic Spikes.

 

[blastoiselover100]

I have to say that Venomoth out classes Butterfree as far as passive damage goes. At the most they both take 50% if three layers of Spikes is up AND Stealth Rock is up. Butterfree is immune to Toxic Spikes, but Venomoth gets rid of them. That makes it better when it comes to passive damage.

EDIT: I know it says the same thing as the post above, but it was put up two seconds before mine.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Butterfree has its job done in 2 turns from the start of the game.

1st turn, come out and Sleep the first OU opponent (surviving with focus sash if you need too). 2nd turn, stun spore the guy coming in. 3rd turn, pat yourself on the back and be a nice body to toss around the rest of the match.

Point is, Butterfree doesn't really give a damn about stats, weaknesses, passive damage, whatever. It does its job and it does it well without caring about that.

Venomoth comes in, pulls some cool tricks, is definitely a useful pokemon . . . but overall, there is no 1 thing it does that I couldn't see another pokemon doing better . . .

. . . except maybe absorbing toxic spikes without getting its ass kicked by earthquake. Nice point Bologo, I forgot about that . . .

 

[Emu]

Uh, not to cause anymore unrest over Butterflies and Moths, but Bologo, Butterfree and Venomoth have the same 4x resists...

But I am still a Venomoth supporter. Other than Tinted Lens, Venomoth avoids that 50% from Stealth Rock, plus he can run a a few different sets. Butterfree is pretty much Double-Powder or bust.

 

[blastoiselover100]

That is all Butterfree can do, but people think that it is better than Venomoth because,"it is so good at it." Idiots.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Being good at what you do is the point of being the best. -.-

The world's fastest sprinter doesn't give a damn that he'd be mauled by a wrestler. Bill gates doesn't give a damn that a pro sax player can play the saxophone better than him.

And butterfree doesn't give a damn that Venomoth can do just about everything better than him except double powder . . . because guess what, he's better than venomoth at double powder . . . and better at it than everyone else too.

Meanwhile, venomoth should give a damn that Specsmence is a better Special Sweeper, that Ninjask is a better baton passer, and that Tentacruel is a better utility poke.

You don't see Blissey crying that Clefable can try for every role Blissey can and more . . . because guess what, Blissey does its job better.

edit: Blastoiselover-- if you're a Naruto fan like your avitar indicates, I would think you'd understand the point of being the best.

 

[cim]

None, since in order to be the "best" of something it has to not be awful.

Venomoth is the coolest in my opinion, followed by Butterfree.

 

[blastoiselover100]

Technically, Smeargle is better at a version of double powder. It can learn TWave and Spore.

@ChouToshio-Naruto is the best. Kyuubi no Kitsune makes him better than everyone. Just wait until Shippuden on Thursday when he kicks Orochimaru's sorry gray ass.

 

[cim]

Yes I am saying Tinted Lens Venomoth is not as good as Specsmence. What's not to understand about that? Let me explain the basics-- Whenever we look at pokemon, we usually look to see if there are other pokes who do it better. Like Blissey, wouldn't be the top special wall if there were lots of pokes better at it . . . get it? Better special sweepers like Salamence existing are what puts Venomoth in UU to begin with . . . get it? I don't think I can make it easier to understand than that.

As to why am I comparing Venomoth to a top-tier OU-- because guess what: Butterfree does its job better than any top-tier OU, and does see play in OU on occasion. Since we're arguing between Butterfree and Venomoth, if one is the best in OU at something and the other isn't . . . well, that's a pretty damn good arguement for the one that does have the OU use. Not saying that's the only thing to consider, but it's worth considering.

Which is why I put it out there . . . retard.

As to the physical tinted lenses thing, rest assured I wasn't using that as a part of my arguement; just musing at how cool it would be. That's all.

I would like to point out here that this argument is about as intelligent as a kid I gave my copy of Tetris to (I claimed I needed a "tester"). He gave me back the game and said that the game needs to be more like Grand Theft Auto.

The point is, every pokémon has their place. Venomoth might not be good, but surely you can think of a better comparison than Specs-mence. What would happen if everyone followed this logic? People would tell me on RMT (if i could post there) to replace my Dugtrio with Gyarados, my CM Jirachi with Blissey, and my Medicham with a Skarmory. Make a better comparison.

 

[Emu]

But to me, being too predictable brings big problems. See all the outrage over people trying to use Ditto? He's too predicable, so people can counter. Butterfree is very good at double-powder, possibly the best (though Smeargle is a fair point), but if you see it, you can switch to anything to absorb status, or, at the very least, leave the sleeping Poke in to absorb Stun Spore, too. Then Butterfree has to guess when to attack, etc.

Maybe not the best example, but whatever. I'm going to bed.

 

[blastoiselover100]

That is very true. That is one of the many reasons that Venomoth is better.

 

[Wolfheart]

masquerain

._.

Umm. yes.

It's not a butterfly though.

 

[Colonel M]

Venemoth or Masquerain are my choices. Butterfree would land as 3rd.

Venemoth is pretty awesome in many ways. First off, he isn't 50% killed off by Stealth Rock (that's a major plus right there). 2nd, free Roosting (in other words, no drawbacks)! And of course, let's not forget the awesomeness of Tinted Lens and STAB Bug Buzz. Quite the useful bug that he is.

Masquerain gets my 2nd vote since 1) he looks kind of cool and 2) Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, AND Intimidate = auto-win for him being a bug. Not to mention that he at least gets STAB Air Slash. >_>;

Butterfree is okay, but like many people mention, it's a one-ride pony, then it's just useless.

 

[Brawley]

Butterfree was badass.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I would like to point out here that this argument is about as intelligent as a kid I gave my copy of Tetris to (I claimed I needed a "tester"). He gave me back the game and said that the game needs to be more like Grand Theft Auto.

The point is, every pokémon has their place. Venomoth might not be good, but surely you can think of a better comparison than Specs-mence. What would happen if everyone followed this logic? People would tell me on RMT (if i could post there) to replace my Dugtrio with Gyarados, my CM Jirachi with Blissey, and my Medicham with a Skarmory. Make a better comparison.

. . . I don't get your point. Dugtrio's a trapper, Gyara is a bulky sweeper. Jirachi is a Utility Tank while Blissey is a Special Wall. Medicham's a physical sweeper while skarmory is a wall.

SpecsMoth and SpecsMence on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Baton Pass-moth and Baton Pass-Ninjask on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Utility-Moth and Utility-Cruel on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

I think the comparison is pretty clear.


Predictability on the other hand, is something important to take into consideration . . . and that's why I said being the best at something isn't the only thing to consider . . .

Blastoiselover-- Ah yeah I forgot about Smeargle. :/ Well, butterfree has a bit of an edge in being able to not worry about paralyzing/not-paralyzing the switch in, because (correct me if I'm wrong) everything gets hit by stun spore. Don't have to worry about nasty Hippowdon/Garchomp switch ins not feeling it. Smeargle definitely has unpredictability on its side though . . .

Oh and yeah and on an off-topic note, I haven't been following the Naruto anime (have been reading the manga for years on the other hand), but I think I'll definitely stop into watch next weeks . . . 4-tail Kyuubi Naruto is going to freaking rock . . .

 

[Chou Toshio]

. . . I don't get your point. Dugtrio's a trapper, Gyara is a bulky sweeper. Jirachi is a Utility Tank while Blissey is a Special Wall. Medicham's a physical sweeper while skarmory is a wall.

SpecsMoth and SpecsMence on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Baton Pass-moth and Baton Pass-Ninjask on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Utility-Moth and Utility-Cruel on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

I think the comparison is pretty clear.


Predictability on the other hand, is something important to take into consideration . . . and that's why I said being the best at something isn't the only thing to consider . . .

Originally Posted by me:

Since we're arguing between Butterfree and Venomoth, if one is the best in OU at something and the other isn't . . . well, that's a pretty damn good arguement for the one that does have the OU use. Not saying that's the only thing to consider, but it's worth considering.

Blastoiselover-- Ah yeah I forgot about Smeargle. :/ Well, butterfree has a bit of an edge in being able to not worry about paralyzing/not-paralyzing the switch in, because (correct me if I'm wrong) everything gets hit by stun spore. Don't have to worry about nasty Hippowdon/Garchomp switch ins not feeling it. Smeargle definitely has unpredictability on its side though . . .

Oh and yeah and on an off-topic note, I haven't been following the Naruto anime (have been reading the manga for years on the other hand), but I think I'll definitely stop into watch next weeks . . . 4-tail Kyuubi Naruto is going to freaking rock . . .

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

Why is masquerain not on this list, intimidate is a pretty sweet ability and it has huge type coverage. with a choice scarf it can d alot of damage.

yes I realize that masquerain isn't a butterfly, but no where in the title does it say moths, and look where they are... on the poll. This is bug racism/specism this is!

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Bug Buzz might as well be resisted by nothing, thanks to Tinted Lens.

Soundproof *cough* Mr.Mime *cough* now a little more popular thanks to Obi *cough*

I looked back on Venomoth and it turns out that venonat learns compound eyes not that it matters. Gamefreak acually made it so Butterfree wouldn't be totally outclassed by Venomoth thanks to its other mostly useless shield dust ability which is only remotely useful to stallers which venomoth definitely isn't. I look at the stats and Venomoth is better in that than Butterfree but it is also outclassed in most aspects by Yanmega. Yanmega pre evolution also learns compound eyes not that it matters since Yanma only learns hypnosis. If it is in terms in overall capability for butterfly pokemon Venomoth would win. If it is in terms of best ability Venomoth would win but many could argue otherwise. If it is in terms of best ability for the certain pokemon Butterfree would win. If it is in terms of best strategy obviously it is Butterfree. Smeargle can possibably be better than Butterfree but the only thing that butterfree sets itself apart from smeargle is t waves resistance by ground and mach punch weakness while Butterfree x4resists. But then again what do I know.

 

[Bologo]

Well, about pokemon that learn Tinted Lens, don't forget about Illumise. I know this is obviously a butterfly discussion but Illumise seems to have the best supporting movepool of the pokemon that get the ability. That is something to think about with Wish, Encore, Baton Pass, U-Turn and a whole other jibber-jabber of other useful moves. Plus, Illumise is the only one of the three that can actually raise special attack without resorting to specs, because it has Growth.

Just something to think about in terms of Tinted Lens users.

 

[Blln]

SpecsMoth and SpecsMence on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Baton Pass-moth and Baton Pass-Ninjask on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Utility-Moth and Utility-Cruel on the other hand . . . well, I think you get the picture.

I think the comparison is pretty clear.

OK so you're comparing some of the most overused and overpowered pokemon in the game to a pokemon that is only decent by UU standards.

That really doesn't make any sense. Venomoth can do the double powder set almost exactly the same as Butterfree, the only difference being 75% Sleep Powder instead of 90%, but atleast Venomoth can do something after it double powders, like lay down Toxic Spikes, which a grand total of like 5 pokemon can even learn.

Yes there are better special sweepers and better utility pokemon, etc, but there's only one pokemon that can double powder, lay down toxic spikes, absorb Toxic Spikes, while still having good speed and decent SAtk with an unresistable STAB and that's Venomoth. You don't use Venomoth because you need a Toxic Spiker, or because you need a special sweeper; you use Venomoth because it provides whatever support or offense your team needs, you gety the entire package.

And anyway, you keep saying Butterfree is some sort of double powder god, but I would much rather take 75% Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Toxic Spikes / unresisted (except for 4x) Bug Buzz Venomoth (or even Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Agility / Baton Pass) than 90% Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / filler / filler Butterfree. I feel like if you're going to just throw a slot away to get an early sleep / para, you might as well get as much out of it as possible with some Toxic Spikes or Agility support. Venomoth can keep come back in a few times if it gets lucky, but unless you have spotless Rapid Spin support, Butterfree's days are severely numbered

 

[Bam]

Yanmega is ultimate butterfly and is Pokemons.

Curse you kami for putting that in our thread!!!

Anyways, I'd have to say that Venomoth is arguably the best. It's more versatile, and can function as either a Specs user or a Baton Passer among other things.

 

[Automatic]

Yes I am saying Tinted Lens Venomoth is not as good as Specsmence.

Since this is now apparently the "state the obvious but not related" thread, I just wanted to add that Run Away Eevee is not as good as Motor Drive Electivire.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You guys really aren't willing to read the words I'm typing, neh?

Logical Steps:

1. We are comparing Butterfree to Venomoth, correct?

2. I said Butterfree has its uses in OU, and it's arguably one of the best at its job in OU (along smeargle).

3. In that case, when considering Venomoth in respect to Butterfree, you would at least consider its OU use as well-- correct? After all, UU pokemon are allowed in OU, neh?

4. In which case, you should properly compare both of them to others in OU who do the same job (just like comparing Butterfree to smeargle).

5. Since Venomoth is a specs user reliant on a not-commonly-resisted STAB, and Specsmence is also a specs user reliant on a not-commonly-resisted stab, it makes sense to compare between them when considering Venomoth's OU use, correct?

6. By what I can see, Butterfree does its job in OU better than practically all its rivals (arguable with Smeargle). On the other hand, Venomoth is obviously outclassed by said rivals (like specsmence) in OU.

Conclusion: At least in the aspect of how the two rank against their peers in performing their respective tasks in OU, butterfree is clearly superior. In other aspects, maybe not.

That's all I was saying, and if you still can't understand after properly reading, I give up.

 

[astrohawke]

Choutoshio I think people get that butterfree is one of the best double powder users but I also think that everyone is arguing against you because of your original implication that butterfree is better than venomoth purely because venomoth is outclassed in OU while butterfree isn't.

 

[Gmax]

OK, so according to Chou Toshio, since Butterfree can do its job very well in OU, but Hypno is outclassed by Blissey when it comes to special walling, Butterfree>Hypno right?

Other comparisons using his logic:-

Butterfree>Chansey
Butterfree>Lickilicky
Butterfree>Dusclops
Butterfree>DD Feraligatr

Look, Butterfree is deadweight after 3 turns, while Venomoth can serve you throughout the battle. And don't compare Venomoth and Tentacruel, their Utility moves are different(Cruel Spins and uses Knock Off, Venomoth uses the powders).

If you had to choose between Butterfree and Venomoth for a team slot, Venomoth would win hands down, because unlilke Butterfree, it can actually do more than put stuff to sleep. So many people run Hypnosis on Gengar and Crobat, its a 70% acc move, why not run 97.5 % acc Sleep Powder with Butterdree?. Simply because, unlike Butterfree, they can actually DO something after putting stuff to sleep. Venomoth uses a 75% Sleep move, has decent typing, better defenses than Butterfree, and multiple functions, all of which it performs decently. Hell it has better stats than Butterfree in everything but SDef, where it trails by just 5 points(more than compensated for by the extra 10 HP)