So are you saying that "sleep absorber" is not a role? After all, kangaskhan is not the only pokemon that absorbs sleep. Snorlax, Suicune, Machamp, Heracross, Zapdos, Hypno and Honchkrow all match the role of sleep absorber.If I'm going to use Kangaskhan, it's not because he is a "physical sweeper". It's because he is Kangaskhan. It could be because I need a Sleep absorber, or something with 101 Subs, or because he is really cool, but definitely not because he's a "physical sweeper".
Right, and the same way goes with every single Pokémon. The thing is that the concept of 'roles' sumarises the function of a Pokémon. People who have taken the next step know that Blissey does not only deal with CM Raikou, Togekiss and Specsmence, but it also serves as a status absorber with Natural Cure, and in many situations, as a staller, too.If you think about Infernape in such general terms, you will miss specific points that are vital for your team to take the "next step."
See, that's the problem right there..."generally speaking."
If you want to build good teams...you shouldn't be thinking in general terms at all.
You are saying your Pokemon beats (or stops) this specific set of Pokemon, or these specifics sets of Pokemon, and then you choose your next Pokemon accordingly.
You should never build a team "generally speaking."
I'm not talking about building teams with roles in mind. I said that people usually have good reasons for using the pokemon they use. Also, what is a "limited ceiling"?Teams that are built with general roles in mind tend to centralize towards one standard team that might be good, hell it might be great, but it has a limited ceiling for sure.
You mention a "generally speaking" idea, which I assume has something to do what I said earlier on account of the fact that you put it in quotation marks . . . but you don't explain what the "generally speaking" idea is or why it's outdated. Recall that I said roles are defined by what you do with the pokemon, not used to make a team.Roles reinforce this "generally speaking" idea, and are therefore outdated. You should choose Infernape because it defeats Skarmory, Blissey, Hippowdon, Celebi and Swampert, and build off its problem with Garchomp (Yache and Scarf sets) and Tentacruel (since Ape rarely carries Earthquake), not because it is a "sweeper."
Calling Infernape a sweeper hardly prevents me from using him otherwise. Also, what is the "next step" that I can't make because I think of pokemon in terms of what they do?If you think about Infernape in such general terms, you will miss specific points that are vital for your team to take the "next step."
That right there, my friends, is exactly the wrong perspective to have when team building. Never, ever add Infernape to your team because he "sweeps and thus is a sweeper." Add him on the team because he beats specific Pokemon your team cannot beat, and make absolutely sure to account for every single Pokemon.COalex said:Generally speaking, we put pokemon on our team to do certain things. I put Infernape on my team to sweep. Thus, he is my sweeper. I put Blissey on my team to wall special attacks and cure my team of status. Thus, she is my special wall and cleric.
It's completely wrong. You shouldn't add Pokemon on your team to fill roles. He added Infernape to sweep, not to beat these certain Pokemon specifically. He then adds Blissey to wall special attacks...but that is so general. What special attacks, and from what Pokemon?Coalex said:Generally speaking, we put pokemon on our team to do certain things. I put Infernape on my team to sweep. Thus, he is my sweeper. I put Blissey on my team to wall special attacks and cure my team of status. Thus, she is my special wall and cleric.
No good player ever does this to my knowledge so I guess the point of this thread is to address novice battlers. I don't think COAlex was saying "I put Infernape on my team because I need a sweeper," he's saying "if Infernape is on my team and he sweeps, then he is my team's sweeper." Basically this entire argument is pointless, I think everyone agrees with you that nobody should be going "Hm I need a sweeper, I'll pick... ooh infernape, he sweeps, I'll use him." we were just confusing the point of your posts I think.What I care is if you limit team building to roles, as COAlex did.
Why can't I use Infernape as a sweeper? What if I would rather kill my opponent than beat specific pokemon? "Account for every single Pokemon", as you say, is an outdated philosophy. On the other hand, using Infernape to sweep forces your opponent to react to you and puts you closer to your goal of killing all six of his guys.That right there, my friends, is exactly the wrong perspective to have when team building. Never, ever add Infernape to your team because he "sweeps and thus is a sweeper." Add him on the team because he beats specific Pokemon your team cannot beat, and make absolutely sure to account for every single Pokemon.
But "beating Blissey and Cresselia" Mismagius is cumbersome and lengthy and doesn't describe what Mismagius does. CM Mismagius handily beats Cresselia and Blissey as well - your description doesn't encompass what it really does.Also COAlex, the most detailed you got in your roles was "Perish Trapper" Mismagius. My entire point is that designating Pokemon like this is pointless. PerishTrapper Mismagius should be "beating Blissey and Cresselia" Mismagius. Roles are outdated because they are not nearly specific enough. Every move, every move combination, and every EV spread should have excessively specific reasoning behind it.
I don't add pokemon on my team to fill roles, I add pokemon on my team to do things. I put Blissey on my team because I use a variety of fast sweepers that hate being paralyzed or burned - and I need a pokemon to easily switch into almost any special attack. Blissey does both these things, so I put it in my team. If this is a mockery of the teambuilding process, I apologize.It's completely wrong. You shouldn't add Pokemon on your team to fill roles. He added Infernape to sweep, not to beat these certain Pokemon specifically. He then adds Blissey to wall special attacks...but that is so general. What special attacks, and from what Pokemon?
Could you explain that a little more? I can certainly use roles to build a team and designate Pokémon at the same time. Weezing walls physical attacks, therefore Weezing is a physical wall. However, Donphan, Skarmory, Slowbro, etc. also wall physical attacks, thus they are physical walls too.You can use roles to basically designate certain Pokemon, but you should never use roles to build a team.
xDIf this is a mockery of the teambuilding process, I apologize.
Unless you're seriously good and generally speaking, every team should have a special wall, every team should have a physical wall, etc. Otherwise you get completely stopped by their sweeper. You don't really need anything to sweep, as stalling is effective as well. Not every team needs a Gyarados Counter, or a revenge killer, or whatever else.i.e. I must have a phys. sweeper, sp. sweeper, phys. wall, spec. wall etc
That's a common misconception, as a team doesn't necessarily need something like say a physical wall to work well...