Media The Dragon Ball Thread

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
First off, yes, I am perfectly aware of the existence of this DBS thread. I posted in it relatively often! However, that has been half-dead for some time mainly due to being focused near-exclusively around the one series out of six (yes I'm counting Daima and Heroes) that is its namesake. This new thread, much like the One Piece one, is designed for EVERYTHING: Manga, anime, games, movies, that one Japanese-only edutainment game, if it has Goku in it and otherwise abides by Smogon site rules it's worthy to post about here.

You got all that? Good. Let's get crackin'.
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming

A stinger at the end confirming the roster size, forms included. Way too big for me to count but according to comments it's 165 slots, which very slightly edges out BT3's total of 161. Honestly pretty impressive once you factor in the animation quality on display and the fact that unlike BT3 this game's working from scratch.

More importantly though, we got confirmation of 3 different Z Gokus. Goku (Mid) is back bros.....

I'll add to this post in a a couple of hours once the Daima news drops. Also End of Z for Kakarot, that's nifty I reckon

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I think the Super anime was atrocious and the Goku Black arc made me ragequit the entire franchise for a while.The Super movies were okay, and are mostly one time enjoyments that's better than most schlop nowadays. The problem with the Buu Saga was that the Dragon Balls (in-universe) and Toriyama not thinking ahead (out of universe reason) removed all the tension in the series and made nobody take this giant threat seriously outside of Gohan. (Who got screwed over by Toriyama) GT fixed this, but at the cost of removing everyone except Goku, especially towards the end.

Does the Super manga address the issues of either late Z or GT? Do people take anything seriously, and do non Goku characters shine? This wasn't addressed in the anime, and the fact that Goku became an idiot who doesn't care about his kids alongside other atrocious things ruined it for me. I heard that the manga is much better than the anime though, and if it at least isn't a pure cashgrab like the anime was, I'm interested in it. I also understand this follows the Minus timeline, so any major retcons I just see it as following its own continuity, so it won't ruin my experience of the original.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I think the Super anime was atrocious and the Goku Black arc made me ragequit the entire franchise for a while.The Super movies were okay, and are mostly one time enjoyments that's better than most schlop nowadays. The problem with the Buu Saga was that the Dragon Balls (in-universe) and Toriyama not thinking ahead (out of universe reason) removed all the tension in the series and made nobody take this giant threat seriously outside of Gohan. (Who got screwed over by Toriyama) GT fixed this, but at the cost of removing everyone except Goku, especially towards the end.

Does the Super manga address the issues of either late Z or GT? Do people take anything seriously, and do non Goku characters shine? This wasn't addressed in the anime, and the fact that Goku became an idiot who doesn't care about his kids alongside other atrocious things ruined it for me. I heard that the manga is much better than the anime though, and if it at least isn't a pure cashgrab like the anime was, I'm interested in it. I also understand this follows the Minus timeline, so any major retcons I just see it as following its own continuity, so it won't ruin my experience of the original.
Hmm... Good timing for this question, I just done with a reread of the whole manga in preparation for the upcoming new chapters! I'll give you my short answer, my long answer and recommendations for how to proceed.

The Short Answer: I do think the manga is in general a better-constructed set of stories than the anime, yes. There are tradeoffs, namely in terms of visual spectacle, but that's clearly not your primary concern. The improvements range from better characterization to more "logical" writing that doesn't bank so hard on poorly-set-up wackiness like Future Trunks' Rage form. That said, the basic conceit of the previously anime-only arcs is the same: If the original Goku Black arc was rage-quittingly unpleasant for you then I'm not sure how much its manga changes will help. I also regret to inform you that you'll be seeing no real improvement on the Stupid Super Goku issue until you reach the manga original arcs. I'm serious, once you get to the Moro arc (Chapters 42-67) he chills out significantly and is generally characterized just fine, still some silly japes and maybe a weird line or two but nothing terrible. Whether they directly responded to criticism of his anime portrayal or this is a sign of brainlet Toei execs influencing his depiction before this point I have no idea, that's just how it is.

The Long Answer: I did in-depth reviews of manga Battle of Gods, U6 Tournament and Goku Black on my own time with a lot of comparisons to their other versions. I also wrote about manga ToP but that's incomplete, so for now I'll just post the 3 I've done.

Chapters 1-4
Toyotaro’s opening salvo on mainline Dragon Ball is one that doesn’t get talked about a lot, and it’s not hard to see why. For one thing it’s incredibly short - a fast reader can knock it out in 15 minutes. More critically, however, this four chapter runtime is used on the third incarnation of the Battle of Gods storyline, the preceding version being an anime retelling that, to put it diplomatically, didn’t exactly ingratiate viewers. These factors form the perfect stew for reader apathy, to where if you ask the average fan nowadays about their thoughts on manga BoG they won’t really have much of anything to say. Prior to rereading it for this essay I was one of those people, and I would’ve capped off the preceding hypothetical scenario by urging you to just watch the movie instead before flipping over to Chapter 5 and going from there. But now that I have reread it, I really can’t do that anymore.

The truth is, movie Battle of Gods and manga Battle of Gods are very different stories at their core. That’s not apparent at all when you’re just reading the back-of-the-napkin plot synopses, for the only notable change in terms of the sequence of events of Beerus’ encounter with the warriors of Earth is Goku not dropping from Super Saiyan God into a powered-up Super Saiyan in the closing stages of the final battle. The real divergence comes with the tone of these events and their meaning to the characters. In layman’s terms, manga Battle of Gods is way less climactic than the movie version. Sure, you still get some high-scope setpieces like Goku and Beerus’ godly flash of fists shaking the universe, but it’s not the be-all end-all like on the big screen. Part of this is undoubtedly a byproduct of Toyotaro wanting to get rethreaded material overwith to move on to the new stuff causing him to detrimentally rush through key sequences (Shenron’s summoning, Videl revealing her pregnancy and the God ritual itself are somewhat infamously blitzed through in a single page), the man himself lampshading this with a drawing at the end of Chapter 3 of Vegeta being grumpy he wasn’t able to show his Bingo Dance. For the most part, however, this “chilling out” of things for lack of a better term is definitely by design. The first chapter continues directly where the Buu arc left off, and while in the latter half we catch our first glimpse of Beerus as he destroys a planet in retaliation for a failed poisoning attempt the vast majority is dedicated to a cute, low-stakes re-introduction to Goku as Goten helps him out with farm work, the pair having some nice father-and-son bantering as the former sneaks in some image training in whatever gaps in the work he can find, eventually culminating in Goten heckling his dad to accept a cash reward from Mr. Satan for the last time he saved the universe. When Goku finally does become a Super Saiyan God he still doesn’t hold a candle against Beerus at his maximum, only just barely intriguing him enough to not destroy Earth and take him in for training with a last burst of strength that repels a planet-busting supernova attack. Even the back-cover blurb for DBS’ first volume has a laid-back vibe to it: “...Beerus is reminded of a man from his dreams with the moniker "Super Saiyan God" or something like that... The God of Destruction sets his sights on Earth to track down this mysterious man! Maybe this will give Goku something to do?” Movie Battle of Gods couldn’t afford to be this low-key, it had to be immense and sensational to mark the triumphant return of Dragon Ball after 15 years of absence. There may have been vague plans for continuing things further after that point, but they were ill-defined and with no guarantee they would come to fruition. As such, not only does the manga slow things down to convey that this is merely the beginning but it’s also not remotely a self-contained story, for throughout these first four chapters we also see two beings with a suspicious resemblance to Beerus and Whis searching around the universe for a set of Dragon Balls. One insanely funny moment I had completely forgotten about comes in Chapter 3 when the Elder Kai and Kibitoshin start spying on Champa and Vados through their crystal ball only for the pair to look back at them through the ball, showing that they know they’re being watched before touching down on the World of the Kais in a flash to reprimand them, the eavesdroppers playing dumb until they go away.

Stuff like this is why I now consider the prior recommendation of “Just watch the movie lol” to be deeply misguided. Manga Battle of Gods is a short but important prologue first and foremost, an appetizer for the heights Goku and friends can now climb to and the kinds of strange new opponents they’ll soon face that are literally a universe apart. This stuff is obvious for superfans like myself and most of the presumed readership of this essay who have every Dragon Ball story ever told memorized front to back, but for newcomers to the series (and boy did the Super era bring in a lot of those) telling them to essentially graft on a whole other narrative is bound to leave them a little disoriented. With all that said, one more question is left to us: Is manga BoG a good prologue? I don’t know about you, but I would say yes. It’s not mindblowing, it’s not an epic, but it doesn’t need to be. It quickly and concisely sets up all the pieces that will be key for the stories to follow: What our heroes are up to, the powers and personalities of the new gods, the existence of the alternate universes. I would even go so far as to say that I’d consider its brevity more of an asset than it is a liability. Yes, it’s unfortunate that several key scenes are stripped down to the cliffnotes versions, but if that’s the price to pay for quickly getting readers into the new status quo then so be it. Some of the greatest intros of all time are a fraction of even this length, with one of the seminal works of this very genre pulling it off in seven pages:

In conclusion: anime BoG freakin’ blows lol

Chapters 5-13
The first fully-fledged arc begins with Goku and Vegeta sparring, a sight we will quickly get used to as readers. Chapter 5 in general is all about sparring, in a way, and what it says about the three pairs of rival it shows off. There’s the Saiyans as mentioned previously, frenetically challenging each other until their blood gets pumping to a point where they can no longer resist entering their recently acquired Super Saiyan Blue forms. Then, with the arrival of Champa and Vados we see the God of Destruction brothers have their own duke-out in the form of sharing recipes from their universes, with us finding out later that this is their substitute for huge space clashes they once had that would destroy multiple planets in a flash. Finally there’s their angel attendants, who only playfully gesture at their strength levels without actually getting into the fray, showing their restraint and tact. It’s after the food contest that Champa learns about Earth, revealing his recent acquisition of the Super Dragon Balls and resolving to use them to acquire Universe 7’s Earth in place of his universe’s ruined wartorn equivalent unless Beerus can best a 5-man team of fighters handpicked by him in a tournament. Before we can get to that, however, we are made to spend the latter half of Chapter 6 and the first half of Chapter 7 following Bulma and Jaco on a sidequest to seek out Zuno, a decidedly less intriguing new cast member. He’s literally just The Exposition Dump Character who serves as a conduit for something that should’ve been left behind in OG DB: More unfunny perv gags!! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to guess why we see very little of him after this arc. He’s about as middling and forgettable of an addition to the DB universe as it gets with the SDB info-gathering being a waste of time that could’ve just been said by Champa and Vados off the bat. Oh well, at least we get some Galactic Patrolman Jaco references.

Following this diversion and the selection of the 3 extra Universe 7 fighters, the whole gang other than a very busy Gohan flies off in Whis’ glass cube transport to get to the arena and cheer on their roster. It seems like a small thing, but the stands provide some cute background character moments and jokes throughout the arc. For example, while in the cube the Pilaf Gang speculate on how big the Super Dragon Balls, settling them on them being watermelon-sized before ultimately getting disproven. Later on, following the defeat of Magetta, Chi-Chi pulls out a celebratory treat for U6 being run down to its last man, that being a plate of watermelon slices. Before this, when Vegeta is laying the smackdown on Frost we cut to Videl blocking baby Pan’s eyes from the display. Again, I know this seems like me grasping at straws for things to comment on, but oftentimes it’s the little details like these that give a work that added bit of spice and show the artist is paying close attention to what they’re making. But fine, let’s get to the main event.


With the format of the tournament in mind I reckon that I’ll rank each of the Universe 6 fighters one by one, going from personal least to most favorite based on their fights and general story usage.
  • Frost is at the lowest rung, but not for the promise of a good member of Freeza’s Race being broken that everyone complains about. That aspect is a more or less a creation of the anime, the manga’s angle being an actually pretty funny one: He still tries to cheat by poisoning people, but rather than actually being evil he just does it because he’s quite literally not being paid enough for this and wants to get the tournament overwith so he can go back to his normal life. This in conjunction with later fights seems to leave Vados’ claim of him being the strongest warrior in Universe 6 as utterly nonsensical, but I think this can be interpreted as his toxic deception being so thorough that during the tryouts for the team he fooled the gods into thinking he was one-shotting people. My aforementioned Jaco appreciation also gives Frost points for being found out by him. More than anything egregiously wrong with the character himself, it’s the stuff surrounding Frost in regards to how the Z Fighters are written that turns me off, and by that I mean basically just Piccolo. I really, really don’t like how he and Majin Buu are effectively written out of relevance in this arc even though they were specifically chosen as the other two Earth warriors on the team. Majin Buu, sure, fine: Goku couldn’t have plausibly anticipated he would gum up the entry test that bad and the fact nobody can figure out how to satisfyingly use him without exposing how broken he is is a problem that dates back to GT. By all means they should’ve picked Krillin or 18 or anyone else more reliable, but it’s not the worst thing ever. The way Piccolo is established to be unable to beat Frost and then jobbing without any sort of recompense, on the other hand? No defense there, it’s just plain awful. I know I said I wouldn’t bring up non-manga stuff but it cannot be understated how unbelievably strange it is to look back on ResF Gohan and U6 Tournament Piccolo in a post-Super Hero world, it’s actually unfathomable that Toriyama, Toyotaro and their boardroom buddies seemingly all concurrently agreed that devaluing the 3rd and 4th most popular protagonists like this was completely fine. Just look at these two pages side by side:
    If I knew nothing about Dragon Ball and was seeing this comparison without further context, my first assumption would be that there was some major reshuffling in the writer’s room somewhere in the 85 chapter gap between these scenes. While Piccolo’s usage gets the bulk of my ire, I’m also not too keen on Frost being eliminated by Vegeta. Maybe I’m just cranky and searching for things to complain about, but that scene has always felt like half-hearted “compensation” for whatever the ending of Resurrection ‘F’ was. Overall, all this weirdness combined with Frost himself just not being a good enough character to make up the difference makes his screentime my least favorite portion of the arc by a pretty wide margin. Seriously, Piccolo asking an opponent to go easy on him? What the actual hell? Is this some insane Viz screwup?
  • Thankfully, the other four fighters are all much better in my opinion, starting with Botamo. Yes, seriously, Goku VS Botamo is kinda underrated! It’s silly in a good way, what with Goku leading his opponent to run at him like a maniac as he does mid-fight running warm-ups. I love how Toyo draws Botamo’s shocked eyes as Goku flings him off the ring, as well as his bounciness when his foe’s punches and blasts kick him around the arena, it’s very Buu-esque. I’m rather fond of the wackier gimmick characters past DB tournaments introduced, and Botamo fits right in alongside the likes of Giran and Man-Wolf, adding some flavor to Universe 6 by showing how strange and alien it can be when you look past the shared species.
  • You can say pretty similar things about Magetta and his fight with Vegeta. I’ve always been something of a Magettahead, him being my second favorite Universe 6 fighter in terms of design and moveset, although strangely the manga skims past the heat-based attacks he wielded to great effect in the anime. I think the comedic element of this battle is made to stand out by the fact that unlike his rival, it’s very rare to see Vegeta emote like this:
    . Not much to say on this one, it’s just as solid as Magetta’s own body.
  • Consider me a not-so-lukewarm Cabba defender. The U6 cadet gets a lot of flack for being kinda plain but I think he works great as a facilitator for Vegeta in a mentor role, a great avenue for his character post-Z that I’m surprised hasn’t been played around with more. He’s clearly capable, having a very tactical and acrobatic fighting style, he just needs some guidance to tap into the power of a Super Saiyan. His calm and friendly demeanor works as a good contrast to Vegeta hamming up his evilness, and when Cabba finally learns the form his new teacher immediately surges into Super Saiyan Blue as a showcase of how far he can advance if he puts his mind to it. There’s even a big, manga-exclusive enhancement to this moment that comes during the battles with Hit. During Goku’s go at him Whis explains that SSB has very heavy stamina drain, meaning that when Vegeta was fighting Hit in the form he was only able to use 10% of its power at that time. Goku points this out to him after he drops out of the ring and says that if he hadn’t shown off against Cabba he might’ve been able to win. Instead of getting uppity or irritated at himself for losing this chance, Vegeta simply accepts it as the price he had to pay to give Cabba the best lesson possible and make him strive for higher.
  • Unsurprisingly, the legendary assassin Hit is the crown jewel of the Universe 6 roster. Despite not saying anything until he gets into the ring the man keeps attention to himself throughout the preceding rounds by virtue of his silence and mystery, and when he gets going he leaves Goku scrambling to intuit the mechanics of his timeskip before he can get the elimination. This is the battle where the question of manga vs anime is at its most salient, and personally I think I actually slightly prefer how the manga does it. Goku’s steady progression from form to form feels like a smoother escalation than how he shoots straight to Blue in the anime, and while we miss out on the raw cool factor of SSB Kaioken that for me is compensated by Super Saiyan God getting the bulk of screentime, although that’s probably just my personal bias kicking in as it’s tied for my favorite transformation in the series with this regrettably being the one time we ever see the form combined with the Whis gi (more on that soon). There’s two things about this section that I will defend for the complaints they sometimes get. For one, a lot of people don’t like Hit’s time-skip being nerfed by Goku being stronger than him in his God forms, it’s a common talking point in discussions about Dragon Ball’s powercreep silliness and alleged inability to create more intellectually stimulating fights. I understand the annoyance but I don’t think it’s that big a deal in practice: If Goku completely manhandled Hit with absolutely no recourse the moment he entered SSG I would share the frustration, but right down to the end the assassin is able to keep up reasonably well, ultimately dodging Goku’s finishing Kamehameha with his natural agility. The second thing is Monaka, and this is where I regrettably have to voyage into my least favorite part of discussing this series: Stupid Super Goku Discourse. As of this point in the reread I will say that yes it’s real, yes it’s varying degrees of grating, but this is not an example of it. As Piccolo more or less spells out when he’s introduced in Chapter 7, Monaka is a riff on Dragon Ball’s famous trend of making the least traditionally intimidating fighters the strongest. It’s Toriyama Writing 101: Vegeta barely reaching to Nappa’s waist, Freeza’s final form being slender and smooth, the entire existence of Majin Buu, you know the drill by now. Monaka is built up to be yet another one of these cases, except nope, this time he’s actually just a weakling. It’s completely fair and reasonable for Goku to not catch on to this considering he and his friends have been able to hide their power levels for about two decades in-universe, and as of this juncture in the story there’s no real intermediate checkpoint for him to aspire to: He knows he’s a loooong ways off from Beerus and the other Z Fighters are all behind him. It all ends up paying off in an amusing way that solidifies Hit’s burgeoning respect for Goku.
If there’s two words that come to mind to describe the Tournament of Destroyers, they are “underrated” and “charming”. Toriyama and Toyotaro said in interviews their goal was to create a light-hearted throwback to the early tournaments of DB after the more intense big bad-focused stories of Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’, and in general I think they succeeded despite some noticeable rough edges and the overall story lacking the deeper martial arts drama themes that made the 21st and 22nd Budokais as compelling as they are. I’d consider it analogous to a high-end filler arc in terms of quality, honestly preferring it to something like the Otherworld Tournament. It’s the ultimate “kick back and relax” arc, something you can crack open on any given day to amuse yourself without spending too much time. That said, this sounds kinda similar to my endorsement of manga Battle of Gods. Going low-key mode is fine every once in a while, but after what would’ve been roughly 56 weekly chapters once upon a time one can’t help but feel like the manga could use something a bit grander. Of course, we know that a decisive answer to that demand is right around the corner.

Chapters 14-26
Like Chapters 1 and 5, the preceding arc intros, Chapter 14 is all about contrasts. The first thing we see after the cover page is the future once again in ruins. As Future Trunks runs through it we are treated to a conga line of much top-grade visual storytelling and detail: The lost helmet and ruined tank of a failed military resistance, a newspaper celebrating the anniversary of 17 and 18’s death floating lazily in the wind before being crushed under Trunks’ boot, its words now being as good as dirt, Trunks and Mai’s shelter having a taped-up cracked window and a lizard hanging on the wall. Whoever is hunting him down is framed not with the cool but somewhat overblown evil tornado visuals of the anime but more like a horror movie, the hybrid Saiyan being unsettled by even the slightest movements of rubble. We cut back and forth between the decimated future and the untouched present, which in this juncture features Bulma, Jaco, Beerus and Trunks’ private tutor all talking about time manipulation and its consequences, a motif which was already set up at the tail end of the Universe 6 tournament with the reactions to Hit’s powerset. Cut back to the future and Trunks and Mai make a break for the time machine at the ruins of Capsule Corp, only for their assailant to finally find them. Right from the title page we spend most of the chapter seeing the enemy as silhouettes over the horizon, or at best little dimly lit peeks at their face. The tension finally breaks as Mai is knocked out and Trunks turns to the enemy in tears, an accidentally lit fire finally revealing their full visage:

If the way I talked about it reverently didn’t clue you in already, this is my favorite individual chapter at this point and what I believe to be the best introduction of a new antagonist since Imperfect Cell. In general I’ve reached the conclusion that Toyotaro’s Black arc is a collection of some of his most underrated work visually. You see a fair amount of acclaim for the big battle setpieces like Goku’s Hakai, but take something like this page a little later in Chapter 16:

The use of the present and future versions of the Briefs family cat Tama, the future variant being totally exclusive to this arc’s manga equivalent is just class man.

After managing to make his escape following a brief standoff with Black, Future Trunks finds himself back in the present (or the past from his perspective) debriefing Goku and Vegeta on the situation. Branching off from this section are three more notable changes from the anime:
  • Goku and Future Trunks’ sparring match is a pretty straight improvement, namely in the latter showing off his supercharged Super Saiyan 2 state that can compete with Super Saiyan 3 and forces him into God to end things quickly. This feels like a much better evolution of their spar from the first time Trunks came to this time period, showing how he has grown and isn’t such a rookie relative to the big G anymore with Whis even noting that Trunks might be the slightly stronger and more skilled fighter now before Goku’s new forms are taken into consideration.
  • Another good alteration is how Trunks’ defeat of Dabura and Babidi is expanded upon. I already liked this being addressed in the anime as a nice bit of attention to detail and here it’s a much more detailed fight where Kibito and Shin actually help out and lay down their lives, the first case of their surprising prominence overall in this version while directly feeding into Black’s arrival. There’s one particular panel that caught my eye of Babidi pettily stomping on the heavily beaten Shin. My only manga-specific nitpick is that shortly after going SS2, Trunks’ first attack on Dabura is referenced from Gohan pummeling Third Form Freeza. Toyotaro’s over-reliance on referencing pre-Moro was something of a recurring complaint in this time period and usually I don’t find it too noticeable but the dopeyness of supplanting the fight choreography of a literal child on this hardened defender of the future was a bit too much for me to ignore.
  • The last change is the biggest fundamental restructure of the whole arc and one I am a bit more mixed on. In the manga Goku Black never chases Future Trunks to the present, and as a result Goku and Vegeta only make two trips to the future instead of three with Beerus investigating and eliminating present Zamasu on his own without Goku present. The reducing of the back-and-forth is absolutely the correct move from a pacing perspective while eliminating the overly convenient popping up of the time hole that sucks Goku Black away, but I’m not sure if how they got there checks out. Like in the anime Future Trunks only just barely gets the Time Machine working under the duress of Goku Black’s assault, who sees this unknown vessel vanish into thin air and just doesn’t put two and two together as to what his prey just did, continuing to prance around the future until he returns with aid. This decision on his part gets even stranger when right in the finale Fused Zamasu confirms that he remembered Gowasu’s story about the Universe 12 time traveler, announcing his intentions to find their time machine to carry out his project across all realities. I don’t think this is an insurmountable breakdown of logic, there’s legitimate ways you can rationalize Black’s behavior that stay true to his character: Maybe he didn’t think Earth advanced enough of a civilization to do such a thing, or perhaps he does have suspicions but decides to let Future Trunks try whatever he’s planning so he can get a new challenge to grow stronger against (his dialogue in Chapter 16 vaguely supports this interpretation). That said, I can’t help but wonder if there was a more graceful way to pull this off.
This seems like a ripe transition into discussing the intricacies of Zamasu’s character and how he’s portrayed. WRONG! MARIO KART!

What does it say about me that this is my favorite scene of the arc? Genuinely, to me, this is what it’s all about. This is the kind of stuff that makes Dragon Ball. Beerus may be an ultra powerful divine being with planetary destruction part of his daily routine, Future Trunks may be a time-displaced freedom fighter who has spend the past year fending for his life, but my god if they can’t sit down and play some go-karts together. Sometimes you get those moments in a story that by all means should be tonal sledgehammers but somehow just aren’t. This is one of them. It’s a succinct reminder that for Future Trunks the past is just as much his home as his own time period. This scene empowers and respects him more than the entire Perfect Cell portion of his debut story and if you take it out the Goku Black arc drops a whole letter grade for me, I am dead serious. That said, I am LIVID that Viz had present Trunks say “This is the combined power of two Trunks!” when he and his counterpart won and not “This is the combined power of a pair of Trunks!”. Shame on them.

Alright, that’s enough of that, now let’s get back to more sober things like talking about the main villain. Manga Goku Black and Zamasu are an interesting beast to me. I once knew a really big Zamasuhead, like a “meticulously planned out a fanfic centered around Fused Zamasu dating Android 21” level of devotion, and they repeatedly went on record saying they strongly disliked the manga version of the duo. After reading it, I can totally understand why someone would harbor that opinion. Like with many facets of the manga version, I do think aspects of these two are just flat-out better written: Goku Black seems noticeably better prepared to face Trunks’ timeline, having Super Saiyan off the bat and with Zamasu immediately in tow to save him when Vegeta goes all-out to finish him ASAP in the new first battle with him, which again is a better, less convenient route than Goku holding back in the present enough for the magic time hole to get Black away. Zamasu doesn’t fight Goku in the present, instead being introduced in a duel with Kibito (More U7 Kai exposure!) and learning of Goku’s “sin” via Godtube. There’s also another really great use of present-past switching in Chapter 19 where present Zamasu gets ready to ramble on about his mad plan to Beerus with it then switching to the future to see Goku Black saying presumably the same things to Vegeta in the middle of their first bout before cutting back to present Zamasu again, the other gods around him peeved at his behavior. Super Saiyan Rose being a Blue variant makes more sense, and I personally prefer the effects here of the mortal-god fusion expiring which have a suitably creepy vibe, a metaphor for Zamasu having become so lost in his world that he’s become an incurable walking bundle of contradictions.

And yet... There’s just a lot of pizazz missing. One thing that shocked me was realizing that Goku Black never brings out his iconic scythe, and the only time he even uses a ki blade at all is his attempt to execute Gowasu after he fails at talking sense into him. In general there’s something a bit off about him, less high-and-mighty and more plain psychotic (one scene that comes to mind is him grabbing Trunks’ face and smashing it into the ground over and over, a moment that elicited Z Broly more than a fallen god laying down his delusional form of divine punishment). I think there’s a unique appeal to this with how it contrasts with his partner Zamasu keeping more of that Kaioshin coolness, but there’s definitely a shift and not always for the better. But the biggest casualty is undoubtedly Fused Zamasu, who has lost basically all of his visual iconography. The false halo hovering behind his head, his constant floating in the air like he doesn’t even want his feet to touch the same ground mortals did, Lightning of Absolution, Holy Wrath, the continued usage of ki weaponry, his Corrupted form, it’s all gone. Even his physical strength has been toned down considerably, from being able to reasonably compete with Vegito Blue to being just about dead-even against Perfected SSB Goku. Manga Fused Zamasu does have a few unique skills to his name such as opening portals and materializing blocks of Kachin to throw at his enemies, but it would be outright foolish to act like this is a remotely equivalent exchange. Like I’ve alluded to a few times previously I think the manga pretty consistently has a more sensible and intuitive escalation in strength and evolution of forms and such compared the wild jumps the anime makes, Perfected Blue itself being an example that expands on the drawbacks established for SSB in Universe 6 and lets it get more time in the sun as the top dog form while not completely sidelining God the way its counterpart did. I just don’t understand why compromises like this had to made: Why can’t we have both? Did Fused Zamasu being nerfed in strength and given some new moves that debatably follow more logically from pre-established Kaioshin lore really require so much of what made him distinct to be gutted to this extent?

I think this general throughline can also be ascribed to Future Trunks. Again, I fully concede that he is better-written in the manga, Super Saiyan Rage was always prime-rib nonsense and the reveal that he adopted Kaioshin healing and has been using it the whole time is genuinely a good twist. But there will always be that meathead part of me terminally frustrated by his superfluousness in the Cell Games that appreciates the immense overcompensation the Goku Black arc brought to him. Remember, that’s just my own name: The storyline is officially called the Future Trunks arc, and when I rewatch the scene of him triumphantly declaring the resilience of mortals and slicing Corrupted Zamasu in half with his giant glowing spirit sword I can fully understand the choice of nomenclature. Then again... Maybe it’s for the best that Trunks’ role in the manga is a bit more subdued.

Well, here we are, the Cell Max in the room that much like Goku Black’s stalking of Trunks hangs over the arc like an inescapable shadow: The ending.

In the latter half of Chapter 21, following Shin and Gowasu arriving from the present to save Trunks and Mai in the nick of time, we see Goku Black and Zamasu discussing their next moves now that they’ve been found out by other living gods. They determine they need to leave and lay low on another planet, but before doing so decide on their parting gift: To finish cleansing the humans. Shin and Gowasu suddenly sense the final life signatures being snuffed out, and with no regard for his life Zamasu’s master warps down to Earth to try and stop his pupil... And he’s too late. His greeting upon apparating in front of Goku Black is him pointing his thumb back at a warehouse freshly exploded by his comrade, the shelter of the last humans. It’s over. Goku and Vegeta haven’t even returned, but Trunks’ world is irreparably doomed. When I was taking notes while reading this arc, the first thing I put down for this moment was a disparaging comparison to Vegeta’s elimination of Frost: A lame attempt at papering over an unpopular story decision. Toyotaro presumably did not have the agency to change the ending outright so the next best thing was to let the audience down easy, to not make it as big of a sucker punch. But I can’t lie, as I finished my note-taking and thought it over more, I started to see the vision.

If DBS Broly didn’t exist, my favorite Dragon Ball story of all time would be the Saiyan arc. It’s one of those things where it’s hard to figure out what to say that hasn’t already been said so many times by so many others: It’s the arc that catapulted Dragon Ball to new heights, reforging the universe with a tale about a band of brothers standing against monsters unlike anything they’ve seen before that was as action-packed as it was heart-wrenching. From this masterpiece my favorite segment has always been the ending. Goku can’t move, Gohan is passed out, Vegeta is pathetically crawling back to his pod and Krillin only has just enough energy to decide the invader’s fate with Yajirobe’s sword. Both sides are completely beaten and broken, their closest allies all now residing in the next world. Earth has only survived by the skin of its teeth, the costs unfathomable and its greatest terror having lived to do god knows what. I don’t think any story in this series ever managed to live up to the melancholy the Saiyan arc leaves you. The next best thing is perhaps the Android arc’s ending and Goku’s death, but staying down was his choice, one that could’ve easily been reversed with one of the two sets of Dragon Balls readily available to the heroes by this point. Even if he never came back he left the Earth with his even more powerful son and plenty of other great warriors to help him with future trials. The same can be applied to GT’s much-vaunted finale. The exception is Manga Goku Black. The Saiyan arc may have been a pyrrhic victory, but when Goku and Vegeta reunite with Trunks they are placed in an even bleaker position they’ve never been in before or since: They have already lost. They could’ve brought as many reinforcements as their hearts desired and it wouldn’t have mattered. Every trick and technique they bring out after this point, from the Mafuba to Potara fusion to Perfected Blue, is not in service of stopping the machinations of a new evil. They’re doing it as damage control. Future Trunks’ trademark motto of hope takes on a whole new meaning: The hope that he can prevent others from meeting his terrible fate. To put it frankly, I love this. It is tragic, mesmerizingly so. It is a wake-up call for characters and audience alike who have grown complacent because of those magical wishing orbs while still showing the persistence of our heroes. Like I said before, for Future Trunks the present is just as much of a home as the future was. He may have lost one home, but by god is he going to fight like hell to make sure he doesn’t lose another. Putting the chips down now rather than later while reducing the opportunities to visit makes it so Goku & Vegeta couldn’t have done anything differently. In the words of Picard, “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”

There’s just one problem. It’s not enough to totally capsize all this conclusion means to me, but it certainly puts a considerable damper on it: The actual reactions to this turn of events on the page are way, WAY too subdued, if not entirely nonexistent. Goku and Vegeta not having much to say is somewhat forgivable by virtue of them not having ever truly known the people of the future Earth, but Trunks and Mai’s lack of reaction is downright startling. The former acknowledges what has happened later, but there’s nowhere near enough passion behind it. The chapter where the last humans die gives more emotional weight to how this affects Gowasu than the fan-favorite character the entire arc is named after, it’s utterly bizarre. So y’know what? To hell with it, lemme workshop this.

Consider the following scenario: Chapter 22 starts, and Trunks finally either gets the bad news told to him by the Kais or senses the lack of energy across the planet. Either way, he becomes totally despondent. His pupils dilate and his arms and legs stiffen, his eyes locked in a thousand-yard stare at Goku Black. The body-snatcher enters Rose and starts beating on him, but Future Trunks doesn’t so much as try to throw a punch back. Both he and Zamasu laugh in unison as they realize what they’ve done: They’ve finally broken this poor neandarthal’s spirit. Goku and Vegeta arrive in the time machine, the first thing they notice being the Earth’s desertion of sapient life, a chilling sensation they haven’t felt since the battle with Super Buu. Goku looks up at the sky, his thoughts unknowable. Vegeta balls his fists, promising to make Black suffer for this. When the two teleport over they arrive just in time to see Goku Black about to fire a huge Rose-empowered Kamehameha at Trunks, who’s leaning on the side of a building unconscious. The prince has seen enough, taking advantage of Black’s distraction to viciously clothesline him away to their new battle site far away from where the others are standing. Goku does his part, taking Trunks and Shin to safety.

As the Vegeta VS Goku Black rematch proceeds unaltered, we take a look inside Future Trunks’ mind as he’s having a near-death experience. He can hear the voices of Goku, Shin and Mai trying to shake him awake, but they’re too muffled for him to make out. There is someone else accompanying in the white void of his mindscape, however. Someone familiar.

Taking care to keep his eyes on the “ground”, Future Trunks tries to walk past Future Gohan only for him to be pushed back. Still not looking at him, he speaks, barely choking back tears.

“Let me go.”

“Not yet.”

“I said let me go.”

“It’s not your time yet.”

“WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT ISN’T MY TIME YET?! What’s left for me, Gohan?! Mom’s dead, and so is everyone else! Zamasu won, I failed at my one purpose, SO AT LEAST LET ME JOIN THEM, DAMNIT!!!”

“Your friends up there don’t seem to want you gone.” Gohan replies, pointing up as the muffled shouts for Trunks to wake up get louder. “Besides, Zamasu can’t claim absolute victory just yet.”

“W-what do you mean...?”

“Didn’t his two versions say they want to eradicate all mortals? Including the ones in the other time rings? Our fathers from the past, who will fight to the bitter end to keep those monsters from causing any more damage? All their friends and family, praying for them to come home safe? Countless other civilizations whose fates will be decided by the outcome of this battle without them even realizing it? It’s too late for us, that much is true. But we’re just an infinitesimal fraction of all those who are counting on you, Trunks. For however worthless you feel right now, keeling over and letting that demonic duo have their way isn’t going to help matters.”

Future Trunks lets a few more tears out. He then looks at his sword, then back to Gohan with renewed purpose.

I just improvised all that so it could probably use some additional refinement, but you get the idea. At least we have this pretty touching exchange:

While I was pretty critical at points, I got quite the kick out of the manga’s take on the Goku Black storyline. On the whole, I think it’s the better version. That said, on the whole is a pretty important qualifier in this case, for as I’ve stated there are quite a few irritating downgrades including removals of entire scenes that added a lot to the anime like Goku Black telling Goku how he killed his family, or Future Bulma’s death being off-screen in the manga. This is purely anecdotal, but for a while now I’ve noticed that out of all of Super’s arcs and movies this is the on that gets the lion’s share of fan rewrites and high quality what-ifs, many of which are by people with far less charitable views on both versions of the canon material than I. Part of this is the malleability of the premise: You can easily alter surrounding events to facilitate Vegeta Black or Gohan Black or whatever alternate Zamasu body suits your fancy. But after rereading the actual thing I am reminded of the other big reason as to why. Simply put, even the biggest detractors recognize that within what I’d consider a good arc are the pieces to make a great arc. Something that in its current state I would give a 7/10 could easily go up to an 8 or 9: Just re-implement some of the lost visual flair of the anime and add a scene grappling with the immensity of future Earth’s fall like I described earlier and you’ve got an all-time Super highlight. Alas, that’s just dealing in hypotheticals, something I tend to look down upon when it comes to reviewing stuff. It’s easy for me to say what “should’ve” been done on the second layer of hindsight, the first being Toyotaro and Toriyama themselves getting to revise stuff with their manga, which in itself is a highly exceptional circumstance. I’m not even within spitting distance of the grueling mangaka grind!

In your case, I'd recommend two litmus tests: Read my manga Goku Black review and try reading the Moro arc itself. If you don't like what you see, there's most likely nothing of value for you here.
 
Hearing someone say DBS Broly is their favorite story in all of Dragon Ball is very shocking, but not something I can't understand. Really frustrated to hear that they destroyed Future Trunks' future, but I'm coping with DBS Broly confirming that this follows the Minus timeline, which is so drastically different than the original manga it has to be its own separate continuity. For all intents and purposes this is a completely different Trunks. The backdrop of Bardock and Future Trunks were partially what made the Frieza and Cell arcs hit so hard, with Future Trunks borderline carrying the emotional weight of the Cell arc prior to SSj2 Gohan. If you take the Goku Black as a direct sequel to Zs, it's one of the worst sequels to a storyline in all of fiction.

That being said, I do enjoy the artwork of the manga far more than the anime, and while not Toriyama and now drawn digitally, still has some level of "rawness" present in the 90s anime and the original manga. As for Goku, I thought black haired UI was a perfect way to tie Super back to its roots but they just won't stop milking him. My biggest narrative issue with GT was that the story was written in a way so that Goku was the main vassal for everybody, and Super is just doubling down on that and not even making him the interesting character he was in the original manga/anime adaptations.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
My biggest narrative issue with GT was that the story was written in a way so that Goku was the main vassal for everybody, and Super is just doubling down on that and not even making him the interesting character he was in the original manga/anime adaptations.
For whatever it's worth I do think that they really have been trying to diversify and dust off their backlog of underutilized secondary characters as of the ToP, it's just been slow and uneven, likely due to those bad habits you described being unfortunately quite lucrative and general inertia they have to struggle against. For example, the Moro arc features Majin Buu and his mythos as a major crux of the story, and while he spends a large chunk of the narrative out of commission it DOES end up paying off in a big way at the end. That arc also has some solid showings from Gohan, Piccolo and the other Z Fighters as they fend off Moro's minions. Of course Super Hero stands out as the big game-changer in this aspect, with the manga retelling devoting an entire new 3 chapter prologue section to Goten and Trunks as Great Saiyaman successors with the core SH storyline receiving some tweaks to facilitate them. Considering this duo has been all but abandoned for a good quarter century now it really stands out, and while it's too early to say I somehow I don't think all this is a fluke before a return to business as usual.

Gohan, Goten and Trunks are all brought to Beerus' planet to have a series of sparring matches. The chapter starts with a SSJ Goten and Trunks tag-team match against SSJ Gohan before segueing into the beginning of the main event, UI Goku VS Gohan Beast, a battle which promises to continue into 103.

Like I said though, slow and uneven. Between these two stories is the very controversial Granolah arc, which is yet another stripped-down Goku & Vegeta romp in the vein of DBS Broly. There's also the upcoming Daima, which while still Goku-focused and not really connected to the broader DBS storyline is at least seemingly trying to shake things up in its own way by forcibly nerfing the cast to a point where they gotta rely on more old-fashioned OG DB style fisticuffs not contingent on Saiyan transformation spam and the like. Also leaks and bits of promo material have alluded to freaking Shin of all people being the secondary protagonist, so that's gotta count for something.

Anyways yeah, that's the situation. To summarize my stance: Black Star DBs up to Goku Black was probably the absolute worst of "The Goku and/or Vegeta Show" with a steady recovery since then. Whether this sounds appealing enough or if it's too little too late is up to you.
 
Anyways yeah, that's the situation. To summarize my stance: Black Star DBs up to Goku Black was probably the absolute worst of "The Goku and/or Vegeta Show" with a steady recovery since then. Whether this sounds appealing enough or if it's too little too late is up to you.
Super to me was almost designed to be filler, so I treat it as mostly filler until I notice genuine character growth amongst the cast that isn't just a rehash of prior developments. Only problem is because of what they did to Future Trunks I can't enjoy this series as a direct continuation than Z, but it at least sounds like satisfying slice of life. (Outside of the fact that they actually have 0 clue what to do with Gohan) I'm ironically more interested in Daima because it sounds like they're going to redo the first arc of GT, except fans will this time eat it up because Toriyama's name is plastered on it and also wasn't released immediately after Z.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Super to me was almost designed to be filler, so I treat it as mostly filler until I notice genuine character growth amongst the cast that isn't just a rehash of prior developments. Only problem is because of what they did to Future Trunks I can't enjoy this series as a direct continuation than Z, but it at least sounds like satisfying slice of life. (Outside of the fact that they actually have 0 clue what to do with Gohan) I'm ironically more interested in Daima because it sounds like they're going to redo the first arc of GT, except fans will this time eat it up because Toriyama's name is plastered on it and also wasn't released immediately after Z.
To wrap this up, have you ever read the fan manga Dragon Ball Kakumei? I think you'd like it a lot. Amazing art with a story that continues directly off the end of DBS Broly concerning the accidentally revived Universes 13-18 as a result of Android 17's wish in the ToP. Not exactly a really original premise but what distinguishes it aside from the aforementioned artistry is the fact that early on Goku gets captured and imprisoned by the main villains forcing the other Z Fighters to take the reigns and fight to save him and the multiverse from the plans of the resurrected Universes' Gods and Angels. It's ongoing and readable for free right now on Mangadraft with an English translation (it's a French production), go give it a shot!
 
Might do a full review of GT later, but A Hero's Legacy was amazing and I'm glad that the (only official) finale of the franchise was one that paid respects to both Dragon Ball, its successor Z, (I know that originally they were lumped together, but their later marketing ploys even in the manga continuity between the OG and Z was the right call) and even other Toriyama series like Dragon Quest. One thing I liked about GT in general was that it maintained the style of humor of the OG, without the raunchiness that I really wasn't a fan of, and a Hero's Legacy maintains that.

The only people who like Dragon Ball but wouldn't like this movie are people who are so used to Z and Super upping the stakes that they forgot that Dragon Ball was originally about a kid on adventures. I will also say that this was more about understanding the atmosphere of a world where the Dragon Balls are mystified and intentionally left ambigious, and GT in general has a somber tone (NOT bleak or depressing, but contemplative) and not the happy go lucky vibes of Dragon Ball. Some people can see this as a con, and while I can understand why, I ultimately see it as a pro.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
I think the reactions to this chapter, both positive and negative are just yet more confirmation of something I have suspected and come to terms with for a long while: The things I want most out of Dragon Ball at this stage of the game are at odds with what 90-95% of the broader fanbase wants most.

Don't get me wrong for a second: UI VS Beast is cool as hell. I'm not enough of a contrarian nutjob to say no to these simple, obvious crowdpleasers. What I am certain of is the news that most of this chapter would focus on a preceding Goten and Trunks VS Gohan fight making me more excited for it must put me in some comically tiny percentile of the readerbase. I have been angsting for years over the near-total abandonment of this duo (namely Goten) since GT's Black Star Dragon Balls opener and I've totally fallen in love with the superhero overhaul they've been given. This chapter seems to be setting up a training arc for them alongside Broly, another character who I've been waiting diligently for the continuation of their story. I think that's what's happening. But they've been burned for so long now that I'm deeply afraid that any moment they're gonna be jammed back into the toybox, whether it be Chi-Chi and Bulma screaming for them to come home before the next arc starts or Vegeta being so disappointed he doesn't even wanna give them the time of day. If I were given a choice between diving right into whatever Black Freeza's up to at G&T's expense or, say, a Sadala arc or some other low-stakes story where the hero duo plays a big role, I would choose the latter without hesitation.

This is just one example of many concerning my strange priorities when it comes to DB. I waited nearly 6 years (christ) for Broly's plotline to finally get going and now it's somewhat spoiled by the worry that two other characters I've grown to love are gonna be "sacrificed" to make that happen. God damnit, man.

gamig.png

No, but seriously, this is my favorite establishing shot in the series. I love these goobers SO MUCH you don't understand guys.
 
I think the reactions to this chapter, both positive and negative are just yet more confirmation of something I have suspected and come to terms with for a long while: The things I want most out of Dragon Ball at this stage of the game are at odds with what 90-95% of the broader fanbase wants most.

Don't get me wrong for a second: UI VS Beast is cool as hell. I'm not enough of a contrarian nutjob to say no to these simple, obvious crowdpleasers. What I am certain of is the news that most of this chapter would focus on a preceding Goten and Trunks VS Gohan fight making me more excited for it must put me in some comically tiny percentile of the readerbase. I have been angsting for years over the near-total abandonment of this duo (namely Goten) since GT's Black Star Dragon Balls opener and I've totally fallen in love with the superhero overhaul they've been given. This chapter seems to be setting up a training arc for them alongside Broly, another character who I've been waiting diligently for the continuation of their story. I think that's what's happening. But they've been burned for so long now that I'm deeply afraid that any moment they're gonna be jammed back into the toybox, whether it be Chi-Chi and Bulma screaming for them to come home before the next arc starts or Vegeta being so disappointed he doesn't even wanna give them the time of day. If I were given a choice between diving right into whatever Black Freeza's up to at G&T's expense or, say, a Sadala arc or some other low-stakes story where the hero duo plays a big role, I would choose the latter without hesitation.

This is just one example of many concerning my strange priorities when it comes to DB. I waited nearly 6 years (christ) for Broly's plotline to finally get going and now it's somewhat spoiled by the worry that two other characters I've grown to love are gonna be "sacrificed" to make that happen. God damnit, man.

View attachment 607330
No, but seriously, this is my favorite establishing shot in the series. I love these goobers SO MUCH you don't understand guys.
I've missed these based takes of yours, honestly. Also, yeah, I think that the latest DBS chapter should've honestly just been wholly Goten and Trunks vs Gohan, with a successful Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks going up against him.

That would've been HELLA sick to see, IMO.

With that being said though?

My attention’s honestly more on the Goku and Gohan fight than anything else.

It’s honestly so cool to see Goku and Gohan being this evenly matched so far, and you know what?

I think the best way for this to end is in a tie, with Gohan realizing that he still does have a long way to go and Goku in turn finding that he has way more to learn from his son than he might have thought he would have in the first place.
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming

>Ultra SS2 Teen Gohan undisputed best unit in Legends
>LR Beast Gohan undisputed best unit in Dokkan
>DBS manga hypemanning a UI Goku VS Beast Gohan showdown

Every day this frame seems less and less real. This is more like it.
 

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