The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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If we had Wobuffet, Salamence wouldn't be problem.

I get both points of the argument, I can see how destructive Mence is and why people say he should be uber, but on the other side of the coin I honestly can't see Mence being uber because I personally don't mind Mence and love the challenge of taking him on.
 
Helix, maybe I was unclear. The rules of chess make the very concept of uber meaningless. It's a totally different game.

And I never mentioned Salamence. Maybe I was talking about Kyogre. Or Arceus. Or RBY Mewtwo. I could well say they are the "queens" of their metagames, and I could say I'm the Queen of England, and both statements would be equally helpful to this discussion.
 

shrang

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If we had Wobuffet, Salamence wouldn't be problem.

I get both points of the argument, I can see how destructive Mence is and why people say he should be uber, but on the other side of the coin I honestly can't see Mence being uber because I personally don't mind Mence and love the challenge of taking him on.
What?? Wobbuffet would make Mence twice as broken as he is now, and the same can be applied to Lucario, Infernape, Metagross, anything that can set up.
 
Ok look, Salamence can be stopped by "many things", but those things can also be killed by Salamence. Imagine Weavile with ice shard, it can just fire blast it and kill it. With SR, it too is hurt badly. Scarfgon can outrage him, but Salamence can do the same. So it's counters can be countered by Salamence. Salamence dosen't need to switch after a kill, so whatever is pulled in better scare it off or it will kill that too, and with enough boosts, it can outspeed scarfers and is too powerful. It is TOO easy to get some boosts with ddance on Salamence, and that's all you need to stop a team.
 
The thing is, why would they need to? I'll tackle these one at a time.

Swampert: Takes about the same amount from MixMence DM as it would from DDMence's +1 Outrage. In both cases, Mence is left crippled, whether that be an unfavorably low Sp.A or by being KOd with Ice Beam. If you want to save Pert as death fodder you can - the lowered SpA will allow the steel of your choice to come in and end Mence's sweep right there.

Suicune: Will never be KOd by DM + Earthquake, which means the only think Mence can do here is Outrage. Bring in Metagross / Jirachi and call it a day.

Hippowdon: You know Salamence isn't going to lock itself into Outrage, so use an Earthquake resist to take it down. Or, just use a pokemon that doesn't take that much damage from an unboosted 310 Atk LO Earthquake (there are plenty). Also note that Hippowdon is prevalent on stall teams, which often have Skarmory or Forretress as a backup, meaning that if you got rocks up, you haven't lost too much.

Celebi: Is rarely OHKOd by any attack, meaning that Mence takes 2 rounds of LO instead of the usual one, and that translates into an easier revenge kill. I get the whole "but then it has done its job" argument but really, if you are trading Celebi for Salamence then it is a fair trade. Not to mention that MixMence often leads off with DM instead of FB (and hardly ever with EQ), so bringing in a steel is often the best move here. Heatran in particular makes a nice switchin, and is often seen alongside Celebi. You'll note that I'm acknowledging that it isn't Mence vs. 1 pokemon, it is Mence vs. a possibility of 6. It has to predict perfectly to score these crucial KOs, while I have to predict what the most likely attack is and switch accordingly aka Mence has to predict Heatran, while Heatran only has to avoid Earthquake.

Gyara and Donphan: Touche. Here, they should only be brought in if Mence is revealed late-game, signaling a DDer. ResTalk Gyara (often found on stall and balance) is often paired with some type of special sponge, which would be the better choice. I'm not saying that you should always switch Blissey into Mence but, given that Mence does not typically select Outrage as its first attack, it may in fact be your best choice against a mid-game Mence.

Shaymin and Slowbro: Shaymin will always survive the ordeal, and can come back in later on a bulky water or ground to Natural Rest the damage. Slowbro is crippled indeed...maybe I should look into Slowking?

Torterra and Regirock: Torterra is 2HKOd, which means 2 rounds of LO for you. Regirock takes relatively little damage from either of the two sets, making it a decent candidate as a primary switchin. Also, Tyranitar is a common partner for Mence, so it is quite likely that sand will be up and running, lessening the damage it takes.

The point holds true that switch-ins differ for each set. I could say the same for Infernape, Jirachi, or Tyranitar.

It is interesting that Salamence is firing off Draco Meteors free of all consequences. Taking Stealth Rock + LO recoil and ending up at -2 is far from an ideal situation, and in some cases it takes two hits to finally KO the opponent. This leaves Mence vulnerable to faster threats, such as ScarfTran or LO Starmie. And since the set up for the support characteristic is Modern Mixmence and not Classic MixMence (which can use Roost to mitigate passive damage), it is not coming in and wreaking havoc again.

EDIT: To keep this from being pure theorymon, I'm just pointing out that I have no qualms with using these pokemon on the suspect ladder. Swampert, for example, has been working out just fine for me, though I've been playing a bit with the older 252 / 212 / 44 SpA spread I used to run and it is giving me some good results. Donphan and Torterra aren't seeing too much use what with all the Shaymin/Starmie running around by my own Celebi works well with the defensive spread, and is great for taking on Breloom and Machamp if I can score a Leech Seed. I find that most of my changes have been to EV spreads rather than actual pokemon.
What are you talking about? I just showed that every Pokemon on that list is 2hkoed by MixMence without forcing it to lock itself into Outrage. Salamence takes 45% from 2 Life Orb recoils and Stealth Rock. You just lost your best answer to Salamence, or severely cripple it and take a second powerful hit on your Steel (watch out if it decides to EQ or Fire Blast). Salamence still has the ability to throw full strength Earthquakes and Outrages, or one more opportunity to switch in. MixMence's purpose is to break walls, not sweep. Who wins?
 
lol so no one should use checks and counters for popular pokemon in the metagame? I can name other pokemon capable of sweeping as well, I guess we should just say ohnoes im swept by xxx cause I thinkg using specefic pokemon to counter threats is dumb

you must have missed the part where i said checks and counters, you cant counter everything in this metagame, so some things must be checked, and mop already stated how DD mence is counterable, mixmence is a little different but its not like it cant be checked

edit: I know this is kind of lame but I am going to ignore suggestions of people who are unproven in battling, either show me you are competent with some suspect ladder ratings or past achievements, theorymon is pretty lol to me
I'll throw in my thoughts real quick -

starting with cresselia, i think using her is a waste, despite being a hard counter to ddmence - it basically sits around besides throwing status and nothing else (which can be heal belled/aromatherapy but those aren't common enough for me to actually use them in argument). i will use the fact that scizor and ttar absolutely dominate cresselia (and she has no reliable healing (in fact, all of the counters besides p2 and vaporeon have none)) and mence is only used on 20% of teams (nape even less, clocking in at 14). so basically, 1/5 of the time you will have a good ddmence counter (and im not even starting on mixmence yet) but 4/5 of the time you have a literal "sitting duck". Why bother using something weak to a plethora of threats like TTar/CM Cune/Scizor/ETC that can only counter a few threats (ddmence/nape/lucario to an extent (can twave/reflect but lucario setting up multiple sds is never a good thing) when we can use something like Suicune/Vaporeon/Swampert who could beat most of those threats and be an actual threat to teams at the same time? it's not "hey lets not use this pokemon because we don't want to think outside the box or counter stuff", it is "cresselia could counter these things but i'd rather take my chances with something like suicune who can do something useful as well, despite being at more risk"

It is easy to say mixmence can be checked but it is pretty easy to bring in Salamence and just start tearing through with draco meteor anyway. and because mixed/dd have different ways to play around them you are at automatic risk the moment you see mence. "shit its mence do i bring in cune who risks draco meteor?" ultimately, i end up switching to something else like jirachi or scizor with the risk of fire blast being present. i realize "it works both ways, they might mess up" but the constant risk of fire blast/eq as well as the pure strength of draco meteor is something that is always worrysome. add a good rapid spinner like starmie or forretress (who could get layers up) and you really could be in trouble depending on if you cant determine what mence it is quick enough. i personally think the best teams on standard include forretress/mixmence/gengar because they can sweep through teams pretty easily but that is just my current opinion.

i've played on suspect for a while now, as well as current standard and although I prefer suspect for reasons i already outlined, many of those reasons also apply to any pokemon leaving ou (allowing other pokemon to shine). if we removed say scizor, i'm sure gengar usage for example would increase. what i don't know is if mence is actually fully uber, but im hoping to reach a desicion with a lot more playing.
 

Hipmonlee

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If you do want a specialised Salamence counter other than Cresselia, try Regirock (requires SS).

The Tank set can only be 2hkoed by specs/lifeorb hydropump. I recommend lowering your SDef and boosting Def a little though.

Stone edge will KO even the bulkiest LO mence after you switch in and attack (in ss). I recommend twaving first though, as it wont miss.

It may run into some trouble with a subbing physically bulky mence that tries to roost you out of stone edge pp. You could run rockslide, but either way you need to paralyse a bulky roosting salamence to take it out..

Have a nice day.
 
DM vs. 252 / 220 Careful Regirock: (53.6%-62.9%)
34.89% - 41.48%. You forgot the sandstorm boost. (252/252 Careful Regirock)

Mixmence Outrage does 32.42% - 38.19%. Earthquake does 36.26% - 42.86% vs 252 / 4 Careful Regirock.

+1 Adamant DD Mence Earthquake does 71.43% - 84.07%. Jolly does 65.38% - 76.92%.

Regirock Stone Edge or Ice Punch deals 78.55% - 93.05%.

Not that Regirock is very good, but he can tank hits, drop Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave and Explode. Or use Curse and run through teams.

Edit: Hipmonlee beat me.
 

Hipmonlee

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Oh I missed that someone else had mentioned regirock, I thought I was being innovative..

Have a nice day
 
Where did we decide to assume Sandstorm? I can't argue with the calcs, though, that does seem like a pretty useful option.
 

Hipmonlee

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Well if you use the regirock, you can lead with hippowdon/tyranitar and you should be pretty safe.

Also according to smogon at least Regirock doesnt actually learn ice punch. But stone edge does just as much..

Have a nice day.
 
Why wouldn't you add a Tyranitar/Hippowdon to a team that includes Regirock? That Special Defense boost will make Regirock a "better" counter to Pokemon such as Heatran and Jolteon as well. I wouldn't use it though but that is another matter.

edit: hipmonlee got me but according to shoddy smogon u team builder, regirock does learn ice punch
 
I was thinking about Regirock before, while we're on topic. How viable is Curse Regirock in a Latias-less Metagame?

+1 252/4 Careful Regirock is 3HKOed by Band Scizor Bullet Punch and pretty much shrugs off every other attack (including Gyarados Waterfall and even Lucario Close Combat deals just 49.45% - 58.24% while +1 Earthquake OHKOs). At +1 it OHKOs any flyer (even Bold Zapdos has a 50% chance of being OHKOed by Stone Edge) and can't be intimidated.

Some things like Celebi, Shaymin, Hippowdon, Swampert and Suicune beat it but Toxic Spikes cripple them. Hippowdon and Swampert can't actually beat Regirock, with their EQs each doing around 25%. The can Roar for some residual damage. Regirock is also beat by Trick, but most choiced Pursuit users can remove that easily enough.

Best case scenario it kills 2-3 pokemon, worse case scenario a Salamence counter?

Edit: Gengar Focus Blast is only doing 34.62% - 41.21%, 45.05% - 53.30% with Life Orb. Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast does 16.76% - 19.78%, Earth Power is only 34.07% - 40.66%. Should Heatran be Choice Scarfed the damage may only 5HKO. Bulky Zapdos does 16.48% - 19.78% with Thunderbolt.

Edit 2: Looking at the OU list, many top OU pokes can directly counter Curse Regirock, or at least hurt him enough to prevent a sweep. Hes still cool as hell though. Tank Regirock at least gets Thunder Wave..
 
The chess/Pokémon analogy fails because you can only choose the default pieces. If you could pick between 400 interesting and exciting pieces that would never see the light of day as long as the queen's there, you'd rethink allowing the queen.
I'm sorry that chess isn't exactly the same as Pokémon...? Also, if the chess setup is the result of the 16 best pieces out of 400, well, it would be the same game.
 
iight, so basically my best guess is that Infernape is gonna go up since it is an expert in breaking skarmbliss, and w.e combo out there since it outspeeds mostly everthing now that Latias and Mence are out of the way.
 
The only problem is that nothing can do what Salamence did. Without my Salamence, I wouldn't have won half the games I've won now. I mean Flygon or Dragonite might work but Flygon lacks Salamence's Set-up moves while Dragonite lacks the raw stats Salamence has. What would be funny is if people started using DD-Tar because they didn't have Salamence to do it. Then again, it might happen...
-Marble101
 

SJCrew

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Well if you use the regirock, you can lead with hippowdon/tyranitar and you should be pretty safe.

Also according to smogon at least Regirock doesnt actually learn ice punch. But stone edge does just as much..

Have a nice day.
Well, accourding to team builder, Regirock does indeed learn Ice Punch (don't see why he wouldn't, really). Looks like not all of the HG/SS tutor moves have been added.
 
Well, accourding to team builder, Regirock does indeed learn Ice Punch (don't see why he wouldn't, really). Looks like not all of the HG/SS tutor moves have been added.
That was an ADV tutor move anyway. I don't think the site's movelists are entirely finished; last I saw, Lugia was lacking Earth Power and Trick, for example. Not that it matters...

@ Chess analogy thing: I guess some people are tired of it feeling like their battles revolve around Salamence. I've made that analogy with Garchomp before (everyone has one, whoever uses it smarter wins) except that Salamence is only on one out of every 5 teams. Still, I'm sure the battles that actually have Salamence in them can feel like that, especially near the top of the ladder.
 
What's the point of an analogy but to compare similar things? Compare Pokémon and chess all you like when we're talking about teamwork, long-term planning, attacking, defending, stalling, whatever. But chess is vastly different in the one way that's relevant to this discussion--whether we should ban a Pokémon from the standard metagame. What is chess's analogue for that? Even if we could contrive some chess variant where to "ban a piece from the metagame" even makes sense, do we really want to twist ourselves in knots just to discuss Pokémon in chess's terms?
 
I've been playing the suspect ladder, and it's a much more enjoyable metagame.
I've seen people being creative with Kingdra and Dragonite, I see pokemon do well that you would never see with mence around. LIke I said, much more enjoyable.
 
This isn't something people "found to complain about" it's something that has been helping to run the metagame for a long time.
 
Sorry if I sound like a noob, and I know I probably do because I'm really new to battling, but has anyone seen that South Park episode where the characters tried to ban an episode of a T.V. show? That episode would be banned, then more episodes would become banned and finally the T.V. show would be cancelled. I can see this happening to the tiers-Garchomp was banned, then came Shaymin-S Latias and now maybe Salamence. What's next?
 
I really didn't want to be the "slippery slope" guy, but if Salamence is Uber then we're going to be asked to do suspect tests for Dragonite(just a slower Salamence, and still faster than every wall, with some useful extra moves like Superpower, Thunderbolt, and Extremespeed) or Machamp(Payback kills Rotom, Rest takes care of the Burn, trolls everything else with 100% confusion and solid power, while healing repeatedly) or something else nothing can seem to counter safely. Hell, Rotom-a could 2HKO me with its great type coverage, Trick me, or Burn me, and if I guess wrong one of my Pokemon becomes crippled, making me vulnerable to another sweeper or losing one of my major attackers... sounds pretty annoying, doesn't it?

If we are really going to say that "it's unacceptable to have Pokemon with only checks and 50% counters but not have 100% safe counters that can come in all day", even though we've accepted that "countering is an outdated term" for a while now, then we're going to have many more suspects, because Salamence is not the only uncounterable Pokemon in OU. Why not just let things be and avoid pissing off half of Smogon...

PS: It was pretty funny when I heard that Salamence ruins Stall this generation. Ever watched a top-of-the-ladder battle...
 
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