The forgotten foe: McGar

[obi]

I don't like the inaccurate move Hypnosis on Gengar, due to its frailty. However, if I had some sort of assurance that Blissey didn't have Thunder Wave, then I could see it being useful to let you actually kill it (Focus Punch on the switch, spam Hypnosis until it hits or Blissey switches). I agree that Substitute isn't the best general choice, but that's more because I like the idea of Life Orb. Of course, with how much stuff Gengar hits SE, Expert Belt may just be the better idea.

Another idea that I never really got around to using outside of ADV ubers is Light Screen + Subpunch Gengar. Sure, Blissey might break your Substitute with Ice Beam without fail, but throw up a Light Screen, and suddenly Blissey needs a critical hit to get through. Light Screen also means that SpecsMence really can't come in and terrorize you until it wears off, or Hippowdon can just stay in and use Ice Fang. Of course, I don't know that I'd use Hippowdon with a SubGar, but it's just an example.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Every time I've tested it, the DP damage formula has either done the same or slightly less.

That does not change the fact that the damage forumlas are now different. They are DIFFERENT. They are NOT THE SAME. It has been PROVEN.

 

[Asian__Mon]

Hmm... just wondering, WHY Leftovers? Doesn't black sludge do the exact same thing (heals 1/16 hp?) AND you can play under item clause (if its in play, that is.)

 

[leafgreen386]

That does not change the fact that the damage forumlas are now different. They are DIFFERENT. They are NOT THE SAME. It has been PROVEN.

Well, of course, but the post was talking about blissey not doing enough damage in adv, but doing enough damage in DP (which is totally bizarre but we'll ignore that for now). The fact that they're different has nothing to do with that, as the damage difference goes the other way. They're actually similar enough that until you start pulling out a ton of multipliers, rarely will the difference of damage be more than 1 or 2 points. The highest I've ever had the difference be is 10 points testing a STAB low atk fighting move against a ttar.

WHY Leftovers?

Why not?

 

[obi]

Black Sludge is theoretically better in case of Trick (so you can damage them), but you also risk giving them more ammo against you later.

 

[Blln]

Hmm... just wondering, WHY Leftovers? Doesn't black sludge do the exact same thing (heals 1/16 hp?) AND you can play under item clause (if its in play, that is.)

I guess if item clause is in play then Black Sludge makes more sense, but if there's no item clause, I'd prefer leftovers

True if someone tricks you, and you have Black Sludge, then their tricker gets poisoned, but now that pokemon can trick Black Sludge onto another one of your pokemon, which can be seriously crippling to some pokemon, so imo it's smarter to just use Leftovers.

But the exact scenario of a trick using pokemon tricking Gengar is so rare that it really hardly makes any difference.

 

[Asian__Mon]

I guess if item clause is in play then Black Sludge makes more sense, but if there's no item clause, I'd prefer leftovers

True if someone tricks you, and you have Black Sludge, then their tricker gets poisoned, but now that pokemon can trick Black Sludge onto another one of your pokemon, which can be seriously crippling to some pokemon, so imo it's smarter to just use Leftovers.

But the exact scenario of a trick using pokemon tricking Gengar is so rare that it really hardly makes any difference.

Well, the thought just crossed my mind; I always used Black sludge on my weezing, but hey, leftovers works as well.

 

[CWW]

Another idea that I never really got around to using outside of ADV ubers is Light Screen + Subpunch Gengar. Sure, Blissey might break your Substitute with Ice Beam without fail, but throw up a Light Screen, and suddenly Blissey needs a critical hit to get through. Light Screen also means that SpecsMence really can't come in and terrorize you until it wears off, or Hippowdon can just stay in and use Ice Fang. Of course, I don't know that I'd use Hippowdon with a SubGar, but it's just an example.

The thought has crossed my mind too. Bronzong for example doesn't really mind Thunder Wave, can Light Screen and pass it to SubGar, which forces Blissey to switch and stay out until the screen wears off. Of course, it requires a lot of setup, but it has merits against other threats like SpecsMence as you say. It helps that Bronzong can easily switch in on said threat, unless it uses Flamethrower.

 

[NC]

Why would you max attack? You can 2hko bliss with no attack and a neutral nature...max SpAtk shadow ball with LO is so devastating I'm not sure why you would give that up especially when the pokemon that absorbs them the best is afraid to come in because you'll 2hko it.

I don't understand what the point of 2HKOing blissey and snorlax with focus punch is. No smart battler is going to let them get hit by focus punch twice in a row and if you only put enough attack to "just" 2HKO them, you may not kill them with focus punch later in the battle after hitting them once, due to their likely leftovers recovery switching in to something else. I do see where you are coming from with max special attack, but I think having more attack would be up to preference, rather than pointless.

 

[Syberia]

Boah does such a better job beating Skarmbliss, and is quite viable in the current D/P metagame.

 

[SNX7]

Boah really isn't that great anymore IMO, just like McGar. On the other hand, Taunting Gengars can really fuck Blissey up, especially if they're not carrying Ice Beam. I remember a Gengar that ran something like this:

Gengar@Petaya Berry
Timid
Levitate
252 SpAtk, 252 Spd, 4 HP
-Taunt
-Substitute
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast

It really did a number on my team. Taunt screwed my Blissey over since I wasn't carrying Ice Beam at the time. He just taunted, then sub'd. Really annoying if you can't outspeed it.

 

[obi]

Taunt + Substitute is redundant. Pretty much whatever you're trying to block with Substitute is Taunted, and Gengar's Substitutes aren't strong enough to really punch behind. I'd much prefer the versatility of more attacks.

 

[teekay]

Yeah, a better version of that is a Mismagius set I've used with Taunt, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball. Taunt renders Blissey worthless and allows you to get free CMs.

 

[husk]

I don't understand what the point of 2HKOing blissey and snorlax with focus punch is. No smart battler is going to let them get hit by focus punch twice in a row and if you only put enough attack to "just" 2HKO them, you may not kill them with focus punch later in the battle after hitting them once, due to their likely leftovers recovery switching in to something else. I do see where you are coming from with max special attack, but I think having more attack would be up to preference, rather than pointless.

If they don't send bliss/lax in again your problem is solved...and if they do you should fp.

 

[Monkeymascot]

Yeah, a better version of that is a Mismagius set I've used with Taunt, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball. Taunt renders Blissey worthless and allows you to get free CMs.

Substitute is better than Taunt on that since it still beats Blissey and it helps against other things, but this isn't the topic to discuss that.