Other The Next Best Thing - ORAS OU Edition (Discussing Gardevoir sets) Check Post #920

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Karxrida said:
If you're going to run Sub-Salac you're probably better off using the Belly Drum set with Overgrow, since it can sweep unprepared teams on its own.
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SubBD lacks the coverage necessary to beat common stuff, Chesnaught has to rely on its 2 move coverage to sweep. Alongside Drain Punch, if Grass is picked, stuff like Dragonite, Venusaur, Heracross, Celebi, Altaria etc. would be able to tank a hit even at +6; if Rock is picked, Slowbro, Gallade, Hippowdon would have no problem taking a hit and KOing in return; Ground obviously gets walled by the Lando, Latias, Gliscor etc. What's more is that many of said mons I listed are pretty common switch ins to Chesnaught in the first place, so it might be challenging to get a sweep going. Sub-Endeavor, however, gives up the ability to sweep unprepared teams to being able to handle prepared teams better, since only priority (which stops SubBD too) and Ghost types can avoid being cut down to 1 HP with Endeavor.

I'm not trying to say which set is better because what 1 set can do, the other set can't do, simply because the comparison goes both ways; 1 set can run through an unprepared team with ease, while another set fares better against teams with natural counters to Chesnaught.

That being said, I'm voting for ZANBAKUresh's Super Fang Chesnaught
 
escarlata said:
SubBD lacks the coverage necessary to beat common stuff, Chesnaught has to rely on its 2 move coverage to sweep. Alongside Drain Punch, if Grass is picked, stuff like Dragonite, Venusaur, Heracross, Celebi, Altaria etc. would be able to tank a hit even at +6; if Rock is picked, Slowbro, Gallade, Hippowdon would have no problem taking a hit and KOing in return; Ground obviously gets walled by the Lando, Latias, Gliscor etc. What's more is that many of said mons I listed are pretty common switch ins to Chesnaught in the first place, so it might be challenging to get a sweep going. Sub-Endeavor, however, gives up the ability to sweep unprepared teams to being able to handle prepared teams better, since only priority (which stops SubBD too) and Ghost types can avoid being cut down to 1 HP with Endeavor.

I'm not trying to say which set is better because what 1 set can do, the other set can't do, simply because the comparison goes both ways; 1 set can run through an unprepared team with ease, while another set fares better against teams with natural counters to Chesnaught.

That being said, I'm voting for ZANBAKUresh's Super Fang Chesnaught
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Hence why I said unprepared? Regardless, every sweeper needs some support and you can BS your way past some of that stuff with the Drain Punch recovery and/or having Rocks up (for example Dragonite dies to Drain Punch after Rocks 50% of the time and can't even kill with Banded E-Speed after BD damage). I just feel like BD would be better off using since it can actually sweep and do something to defensive teams before getting phazed.
 
Vinc608 said:
The guy who posted the SubBellySalac is not the creator ;;; so i vote for Sergeant Spooky's Super Fang Chesnaught
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You...You... said:
240px-652Chesnaught.png

Chesnaught @ Salac Berry
Ability: Bulletproof Overgrow
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Seed Bomb


Disclaimer: I did not make this set

Sub + Belly Drum Chesnaught is an awesome and very unexpected sweeper. It relies heavily on the advantage of surprise but when it gets set up it is very difficult to stop. Basically you come in on something you wall (e.g bisharp) or something that can't do anything but status you (e.g Rotom-W) or something that outright can't touch you (Ferrothorn) and set a substitute up. Then you can go for a free Belly Drum which at that point will activate your Salac Berry and allow you to sweep with your dual STAB.



Edit: Changed to Overgrow after accidently having Bulletproof.
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I'm not trying to change your vote but seriously read my disclaimer I underlined and in this post bolded. While we're on this topic firehusky if you feel it gives off the wrong impression to people when labelling my suggested set as You...You...'s SubBDSalac Chesnaught when I'm not the inventor you could change it so it isn't labelled with my name.
 
Karxrida said:
Hence why I said unprepared? Regardless, every sweeper needs some support and you can BS your way past some of that stuff with the Drain Punch recovery and/or having Rocks up (for example Dragonite dies to Drain Punch after Rocks 50% of the time and can't even kill with Banded E-Speed after BD damage). I just feel like BD would be better off using since it can actually sweep and do something to defensive teams before getting phazed.
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If it only factors in BD damage, then Chesnaught is not even at +1 Speed yet so why would any good CBNite even try to ESpeed it instead of like Superpower or Fire Punch. That aside, these 2 Chesnaughts do not even try to do the same thing so I don't see why you are even comparing BD with SubEndeavor. SubSalacBD is basically a sweeper which needs its checks to be eliminated. SubEndeavor however, does not look for a sweep, but serves as a lure, which allows it to kill common switch ins, to allow something else to sweep; i.e. luring and defeating Venusaur so that Keldeo can sweep; luring and defeating Altaria so Gyarados can sweep or the likes. While the BD set can wear down stuff too, do note that it needs the 1 turn for BD in order to get anything going, which it would not always get; whereas Sub Endeavor can just sub down to low hp and land Endeavors to cripple stuff which it cannot immediately KO, or land Superpowers and Stone Edge on stuff which can be KOed. BD set is pretty match-up reliant on whether opponent has something that can take on a +6/+1 Chesnaught, whereas Sub Endeavor can at least do something against any teams lacking a ghost to block Endeavor. Overalls, Sub Endeavor has a lower risk, and lower payoff than BD, so I would not jump to the conclusion that either is worth using over another. Saying its not worth using SubEndeavor because SubBD can sweep unprepared team is like saying it's not worth using Heracross because Gallade can sweep unprepared teams i.e. comparing things of different purposes, which is absolutely fallacious.
 
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I'm gonna go with Zanbakuresh

I believe that underrated and truly effective sets do not need to be extremely specialised to something, but being able to do the " surprise factor" without giving up too much "standard" viability, Super Fang Chesnaught allows Chesnaught to gain some offensive presence, being able to hit for good damage majority of Ches switch ins, while at the same time Ches can still act as the same physical wall he's supposed to be when teambuilding.
 
escarlata said:
If it only factors in BD damage, then Chesnaught is not even at +1 Speed yet so why would any good CBNite even try to ESpeed it instead of like Superpower or Fire Punch. That aside, these 2 Chesnaughts do not even try to do the same thing so I don't see why you are even comparing BD with SubEndeavor. SubSalacBD is basically a sweeper which needs its checks to be eliminated. SubEndeavor however, does not look for a sweep, but serves as a lure, which allows it to kill common switch ins, to allow something else to sweep; i.e. luring and defeating Venusaur so that Keldeo can sweep; luring and defeating Altaria so Gyarados can sweep or the likes. While the BD set can wear down stuff too, do note that it needs the 1 turn for BD in order to get anything going, which it would not always get; whereas Sub Endeavor can just sub down to low hp and land Endeavors to cripple stuff which it cannot immediately KO, or land Superpowers and Stone Edge on stuff which can be KOed. BD set is pretty match-up reliant on whether opponent has something that can take on a +6/+1 Chesnaught, whereas Sub Endeavor can at least do something against any teams lacking a ghost to block Endeavor. Overalls, Sub Endeavor has a lower risk, and lower payoff than BD, so I would not jump to the conclusion that either is worth using over another. Saying its not worth using SubEndeavor because SubBD can sweep unprepared team is like saying it's not worth using Heracross because Gallade can sweep unprepared teams i.e. comparing things of different purposes, which is absolutely fallacious.
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To be fair most of these "checks" you're speaking of for the BD set get hit extremely hard with M-Vennusaur taking a good 60% or so from Drain Punch and we're talking about something that is pretty defensive to begin with. 1 turn for BD? That's like saying BD Azumarill is ineffective cause of this when everyone knows it isn't. BD set is not as match-up reliant as you're making it out to be. You'd be surprised how many teams fall to it with just one revenge killer out of the way and most times this is pretty easy. I'm not saying one is better than the other cause to be frank, I'm not actually concerned with this discussion as much as others are, but you're sort of over exaggerating the flaws of BD. I do agree though that the argument for using one over the other is becoming mind numbing at this point and I'm pretty sure people are reading this are just reading it for the entertainment value more than anything else. It's a creative sets thread with sets I guarantee you most people won't even end up using in the first place because it's OU and everyone loves using standard sets lol. Pick the set you want if you care and move on from this debate.
 
ZANBAKUResh's Super Fang Chesnaught

I think that the SubBD set is probably the best one, but I also don't think it's truly creative anymore given that it's in the analysis revamp and has received a considerable amount of hype as of late. Super Fang is an interesting option because it lets you put actual pressure on switch-ins into Chesnaught like Latios and Clefable while dealing with Gyarados's Substitutes. I think that Leech Seed > Spiky Shield and the last slot should be where you choose between Spikes, Spiky Shield, and Wood Hammer, but this idea is pretty solid overall.
 
AM said:
To be fair most of these "checks" you're speaking of for the BD set get hit extremely hard with M-Vennusaur taking a good 60% or so from Drain Punch and we're talking about something that is pretty defensive to begin with. 1 turn for BD? That's like saying BD Azumarill is ineffective cause of this when everyone knows it isn't. BD set is not as match-up reliant as you're making it out to be. You'd be surprised how many teams fall to it with just one revenge killer out of the way and most times this is pretty easy. I'm not saying one is better than the other cause to be frank, I'm not actually concerned with this discussion as much as others are, but you're sort of over exaggerating the flaws of BD. I do agree though that the argument for using one over the other is becoming mind numbing at this point and I'm pretty sure people are reading this are just reading it for the entertainment value more than anything else. It's a creative sets thread with sets I guarantee you most people won't even end up using in the first place because it's OU and everyone loves using standard sets lol. Pick the set you want if you care and move on from this debate.
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I understand what you mean, and my phrasing might have seemed a bit misleading; what I have meant to say is that comparing 2 sets performing different roles with the standard of a single role is pretty unfair. I didn't want to get into the flaws of sub drum part that's pretty much how I tried to that 2 different sets shine at different points of the game. On the note of the checks, they don't come in when you are at +6, but at +0 so they would just deny the sweep if you try to BD, sure you can eliminate their checks, but that's again establishing that it is a mid-late game threat and should not be compared with an early game lure. As for comparison with Azu, one having to use a pinch berry is all the difference, but that deviates from any point so I shall leave it at that. Anyway maybe it's just the way I say things, but I'm certainly not trying to bash a set.
 
HM Slave
Double Dance Gliscor
gliscor.gif

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Tailwind / Agility
- Earthquake
- Facade / Baton Pass / Knock Off

lol basic concept of double dancer, SD lets you break stall, Tailwind lets you outspeed fast HO teams. Toxic Orb makes sure Gliscor can't get burned lol. Also you can run other moves like Knock Off or Ice Fang. Acrobatics + Fling is kinda gimmicky but it means you pretty much need to set up with a move and then also use Fling to even hit hard. Stronk sweeper that doesn't mind random priority not named Aqua Jet or Ice Shard. Also can surprise random stuff lol. Baton Pass is also a random option that lets you pass SD or switch in appropriate Tailwind abuser. Also good for when you see something random like a Gengar that will hardstop you. Agility should be used over Tailwind if running BP.

Fly, Dig, Strength, and Cut make Gliscor a stronk HM slave. Wait wut it doesn't learn Fly???
 
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TauntTurn Gliscor:

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Heal
EVs: 244 HP, 192 Def, 72 spe
Impish Nature

- Taunt
- Roost
- U-Turn
- Toxic/Earthquake

A very nice bulky pivot with the ability to stallbreak, this set can be an effective anti lead that also gains momentum with U-Turn. Roost is used over Sub as the sub is lost after a U-Turn and recovery is great for a poke that wants to tank hits and get the slow U-Turn into another poke, and U-Turn over BP as the amount of Lando-Ts that stop you passing to a physically offensive poke is annoying, and the sash breaking/chip damage is good too. EQ is for use on more offensive teams, while defensive ones can enjoy the toxic chip damage instead.

If running EQ, run 16 attack EVs to OHKO Lucario (might be rare, but worth mentioning).
 
s0me1 b0red said:
TauntTurn Gliscor:

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Heal
EVs: 244 HP, 192 Def, 72 spe
Impish Nature

- Taunt
- Roost
- U-Turn
- Toxic/Earthquake

A very nice bulky pivot with the ability to stallbreak, this set can be an effective anti lead that also gains momentum with U-Turn. Roost is used over Sub as the sub is lost after a U-Turn and recovery is great for a poke that wants to tank hits and get the slow U-Turn into another poke, and U-Turn over BP as the amount of Lando-Ts that stop you passing to a physically offensive poke is annoying, and the sash breaking/chip damage is good too. EQ is for use on more offensive teams, while defensive ones can enjoy the toxic chip damage instead.

If running EQ, run 16 attack EVs to OHKO Lucario (might be rare, but worth mentioning).
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U-turn is an interesting option, I'll add this.
 
gliscor.gif

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpDef / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Counter
- Taunt / Swords Dance
- Earthquake / Facade

Taunt Counter is an interesting variant of Gliscor that I tried and it seemed to work pretty well. It works in a similar vein as Counter Skarm. Because of Gliscor's impressive physical bulk as well as access to pretty reliable recovery moves and ability, this gives us more working space with Counter as you can take a hit and then dish out to something else that comes in. Taunt forces mons like Ferro to go on the offensive which you can take advantage of as EQ only hits about 30% while Counter will hit for about 60%. Things that commonly use physical moves on Glis are like Land T and usually their switch ins are those that don't like to eat a Counter. It's an interesting twist to Glis. SD Facade is slashed on the off chance you need some stronger offensive power

Edit: s0me1 b0red made a pretty interesting suggestion and I personally like it so yeah. It gives you more defensive options on both spectrums.
 
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gliscor.gif


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 76 Def / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Taunt / Swords Dance / Agility / Roost

SubPass sets may be a relic of past gens, but I still love them, and Gliscor is probably the best in the business thanks to its bulk. The given EVs allow it to outspeed and set up a quick sub on neutral-natured base 100s, but you can always run more bulk as necessary.

Its primary purpose is to grab unexpected momentum and give frail sweepers a chance to boost or attack behind the safety of a sub, but the freedom of the fourth moveslot makes this a versatile set - Taunt cripples walls and blocks opposing Taunts outside of Mega Sableye, Swords Dance destroys Mega Sableye, both Swords Dance and Agility allow it to pass boons other than subs and Roost lets it fulfill its usual annoyance duties.

The best partners to this set are obviously frail sweepers, especially of the setup variety, but hazard removers are also appreciated since Gliscor will likely be switching in and out frequently.
 
ZANBAKUResh said:
gliscor.gif

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 192 Def / 72 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Counter
- Taunt / Swords Dance
- Earthquake / Facade

Taunt Counter is an interesting variant of Gliscor that I tried and it seemed to work pretty well. It works in a similar vein as Counter Skarm. Because of Gliscor's impressive physical bulk as well as access to pretty reliable recovery moves and ability, this gives us more working space with Counter as you can take a hit and then dish out to something else that comes in. Taunt forces mons like Ferro to go on the offensive which you can take advantage of as EQ only hits about 30% while Counter will hit for about 60%. Things that commonly use physical moves on Glis are like Land T and usually their switch ins are those that don't like to eat a Counter. It's an interesting twist to Glis. SD Facade is slashed on the off chance you need some stronger offensive power
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Wouldn't special investment be better than physical so you deal more counter damage?
 
You want to be able to take the attacks you'll be provoking, and you want to be able to take them consistently. Think of counter as more of a bonus, rather than a sweeping tool.
 
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guraion.gif

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 50 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang / Facade / Taunt


SD Gliscor is usually used for Baton Pass purposes, but Gliscor can be a decent psychical sweeper on its own.
EV Spread is to outspeed Jolly Excadrill, hit as hard as possible, and give you some bulk, moves are obvious but SD and EQ are there to set up and hit hard with STAB EQs, Ice Fang is to hit Landorus and Thunderus, and the last moveslot is up to you. Fire Fang hits Skarmory and Bronzong, while Facade is your best bet against Rotom-W. And Taunt can be used to break stall and give you an opportunity to set up against things like Chansey.
 
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Froggyboy said:
guraion.gif

Gliscor @ Life Orb
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 500 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Fire Fang / Return / Taunt

innovation
SD Gliscor is usually used for Baton Pass purposes, but Gliscor can be a decent psychical sweeper on its own. Though a sweeping Gliscor isn't unheard of, Hyper Cutter+Life Orb Gliscor definitely is.
Hyper Cutter is nice to be able to set up an SD on Intimidaters when they switch in, and it allows you to hold a boosting item, like Life Orb. The ability to set up on Landorus-Therian is nice in this meta, as well as being able to check 2 of the 3 top megas in OU. With a LO and at +2, Gliscor has a good damage output, 2HKOing a lot of OU's walls, as well as being able to tank hits from most things that outspeed it.
Sure, Poison Heal Gliscor is obviously much better, but this set is still interesting imo. Go ahead and reject it, but I find it to be decent.
EV Spread is to outspeed Jolly Excadrill, hit as hard as possible, and give you some bulk, moves are obvious but SD and EQ are there to set up and hit hard with STAB EQs, Ice Fang is to hit Landorus and Thunderus, and the last moveslot is up to you. Fire Fang hits Skarmory and Bronzong, while Return is your best bet against Rotom-W. And Taunt can be used to break stall and give you an opportunity to set up against things like Chansey.
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500 HP? Must be bulky as fuck.
 
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