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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
The Next Best Thing... [V2]: Set Discussion
- Thread starter Bouff
- Start date
- Status
Current tiebreaker! Since SubPass is more viable, albeit not as original, as Endure-Reversal, but mostly because he was robbed last time by a very unviable set, I vote boltsandbombers.
Boltsandbombers :)
boltsandbombermen
Sorry for the huge delay guys, was a bit busy.
Winner of this round is boltsandbombers!
Next suspect will be...
Espeon
Also, just reminding that after this suspect is over, the thread will be used to discuss the sets themselves. The project will resume a week after ORAS's release.
Winner of this round is boltsandbombers!
Next suspect will be...
Espeon
Espeon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Baton Pass
This is the anti-scarf scarf Espeon. (Before you say that sucks let me remind you espeon itself does suck lmao)
252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 384-452 (117.7 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 440-522 (162.3 - 192.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 390-462 (133.1 - 157.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not saying scarfape is good i'm just trying to improve my post)
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 354-416 (94.9 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (just a bonus)
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 182-216 (72.2 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (weak af ikr at least brings it to the range of a priority move)
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while 252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 192-226 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while 252 Atk Flygon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 192-226 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still loses to Krookodile and DD Haxorus tho :/
It is best to pair this pokemon with something that is really slow but can double its speed yet still not fast enough to outspeed scarfers such as Rock Polish Rhyperior, Autotomize Aggron if that is a thing etc...
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
- Baton Pass
This is the anti-scarf scarf Espeon. (Before you say that sucks let me remind you espeon itself does suck lmao)
252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 384-452 (117.7 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 440-522 (162.3 - 192.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 390-462 (133.1 - 157.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (not saying scarfape is good i'm just trying to improve my post)
252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 354-416 (94.9 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (just a bonus)
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 182-216 (72.2 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (weak af ikr at least brings it to the range of a priority move)
252 SpA Espeon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while 252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 192-226 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while 252 Atk Flygon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 192-226 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Still loses to Krookodile and DD Haxorus tho :/
It is best to pair this pokemon with something that is really slow but can double its speed yet still not fast enough to outspeed scarfers such as Rock Polish Rhyperior, Autotomize Aggron if that is a thing etc...
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Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Morning Sun
- Curse
- Zen Headbutt
Well, this was an interesting concept at first, until i got walled completely by Sableye and scrapped the set completely. But, it did work for a little while, somehow. You can usually get curses up before they realise what you're trying to do. And then you have a very good chance of getting flinches/Parahax with body slam and Zen headbutt.
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 230-272 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 118-139 (28 - 33%) -- 85.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 330-390 (76.3 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 331-391 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With pretty solid recovery, this set can be viable. Walled completely by Aggron, so pairing it with something that can counter this like Chandelure or Nido would be best (I used Nidoking)
Sableye is also a problem, but it's not overly common, and as long as you have a counter to this like Togekiss or Slurpuff (I used the former), then you can bypass this problem to a good enough extent
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Morning Sun
- Curse
- Zen Headbutt
Well, this was an interesting concept at first, until i got walled completely by Sableye and scrapped the set completely. But, it did work for a little while, somehow. You can usually get curses up before they realise what you're trying to do. And then you have a very good chance of getting flinches/Parahax with body slam and Zen headbutt.
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 230-272 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 118-139 (28 - 33%) -- 85.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 330-390 (76.3 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Espeon Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 331-391 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With pretty solid recovery, this set can be viable. Walled completely by Aggron, so pairing it with something that can counter this like Chandelure or Nido would be best (I used Nidoking)
Sableye is also a problem, but it's not overly common, and as long as you have a counter to this like Togekiss or Slurpuff (I used the former), then you can bypass this problem to a good enough extent
All-out Attacker / Anti-Hazard Support
Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass / Hidden Power [Fire]
This is a fairly simple Espeon designed to take on most of the various hazard setters in the tier, while also providing offensive support with her excellent speed tier and 358 SpAt.
Basically, with Focus Sash and this set, Espeon can beat the vast majority of hazard setters in UU one on one.
Psyshock is your general go-to attack, and it 3HKOs Blissey even without an item to boost its strength. Blissey will be forced to Soft-boiled, giving you a free switch to something that threatens her out. It's also a guaranteed 2HKO even on 248/240+ Nidoqueen, OHKOs 252/0 Roserade with plenty to spare, easily stops Infernape and has a 99.6% chance to 2HKO Mega-Aerodactyl (although if you don't catch Aero on the switch, Aero will outspeed and 2HKO you first... play carefully!).
Grass Knot deals fantastic damage to bulky grounds and waters, OHKOing and 2HKOing Swampert, Krookodile, Hippowdon, Donphan and Rhyperior. It also has a pretty good chance of 2HKOing non-hazard bulky waters like Suicune (guaranteed if rocks are down) and Mega-Blastoise (54% minimum on 236/0 MegaBlast).
Shadow Ball is for Azelf, Celebi, Jirachi, Metagross, Froslass and Bronzong. (Be careful, though - specially defensive variants of Celebi and Jirachi are only 3HKO'd by it.)
The last slot can either go to HP Fire, which OHKOs standard Forretress (if Sturdy is broken) and which 3HKOs 248/120 Mega-Aggron, or it can go to BP to escape Pursuit traps and pivot out to something that chases off those two. I personally prefer BP, especially combined with a Pursuit trapper of my own to handle the specially defensive variants of Celebi and Jirachi. However, if you'd prefer Espy to be more self-sufficient, there's certainly nothing wrong with using HP Fire. Just beware - HP Fire means you lose the Speed tie with Froslass.
Regarding team support, this Espeon is best as the supporting player on HO, keeping hazards off the field without killing momentum or offensive pressure. Hydreigon is your single biggest threat, so make sure you have something that can switch in to it. Empoleon is also the hazard setter most likely to beat you one on one, so something that scares away Empoleon is appreciated.
Espeon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass / Hidden Power [Fire]
This is a fairly simple Espeon designed to take on most of the various hazard setters in the tier, while also providing offensive support with her excellent speed tier and 358 SpAt.
Basically, with Focus Sash and this set, Espeon can beat the vast majority of hazard setters in UU one on one.
Psyshock is your general go-to attack, and it 3HKOs Blissey even without an item to boost its strength. Blissey will be forced to Soft-boiled, giving you a free switch to something that threatens her out. It's also a guaranteed 2HKO even on 248/240+ Nidoqueen, OHKOs 252/0 Roserade with plenty to spare, easily stops Infernape and has a 99.6% chance to 2HKO Mega-Aerodactyl (although if you don't catch Aero on the switch, Aero will outspeed and 2HKO you first... play carefully!).
Grass Knot deals fantastic damage to bulky grounds and waters, OHKOing and 2HKOing Swampert, Krookodile, Hippowdon, Donphan and Rhyperior. It also has a pretty good chance of 2HKOing non-hazard bulky waters like Suicune (guaranteed if rocks are down) and Mega-Blastoise (54% minimum on 236/0 MegaBlast).
Shadow Ball is for Azelf, Celebi, Jirachi, Metagross, Froslass and Bronzong. (Be careful, though - specially defensive variants of Celebi and Jirachi are only 3HKO'd by it.)
The last slot can either go to HP Fire, which OHKOs standard Forretress (if Sturdy is broken) and which 3HKOs 248/120 Mega-Aggron, or it can go to BP to escape Pursuit traps and pivot out to something that chases off those two. I personally prefer BP, especially combined with a Pursuit trapper of my own to handle the specially defensive variants of Celebi and Jirachi. However, if you'd prefer Espy to be more self-sufficient, there's certainly nothing wrong with using HP Fire. Just beware - HP Fire means you lose the Speed tie with Froslass.
Regarding team support, this Espeon is best as the supporting player on HO, keeping hazards off the field without killing momentum or offensive pressure. Hydreigon is your single biggest threat, so make sure you have something that can switch in to it. Empoleon is also the hazard setter most likely to beat you one on one, so something that scares away Empoleon is appreciated.
Benzmafia
Hogg
Hogg
Hogg
Hogg
So, it seems like everyone who is going to vote has probably voted, but now that Showdown is back up I've got a couple of replays showing that Sash Espeon is actually viable:
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-uu-480556
Espeon and Magneton combo manages to shut down the opposing team’s Forretress/Swampert combo, not only keeping the field hazard free but also getting rid of its spinner.
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-uu-482873
Espeon beats Galvantula one on one, bouncing back Sticky Webs, outspeeding and 2HKOing thanks to Sash.
(Let's see if these replays actually work - replays have been kind of wonky lately.)
EDIT: OK, replays still not working. Oh well. I'm using the Sash set on a team right now, and it's actually pretty good. Also a really nice check to Mega Swampert in the rain, in addition to hazard control.
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-uu-480556
Espeon and Magneton combo manages to shut down the opposing team’s Forretress/Swampert combo, not only keeping the field hazard free but also getting rid of its spinner.
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-uu-482873
Espeon beats Galvantula one on one, bouncing back Sticky Webs, outspeeding and 2HKOing thanks to Sash.
(Let's see if these replays actually work - replays have been kind of wonky lately.)
EDIT: OK, replays still not working. Oh well. I'm using the Sash set on a team right now, and it's actually pretty good. Also a really nice check to Mega Swampert in the rain, in addition to hazard control.
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^^ Looks and functions a LOT like my Mienshao set that also handles Forretress + Swampert nicely, but trading some power to lure and clean mid- to late-game for more security with hazard control and the option to function as a makeshift revenge killer in an emergency. I like.
Hogg
Hogg
SorE for the delay guys, was a bit busy. Our winner is Hogg!
For now, this project will be on break for approximately a week so that the meta can settle in; until then, this can be used as a discussion period for the sets listed in the thread (even if some of them might not be viable in ORAS, you can discuss their uses in XY if you'd like)
For now, this project will be on break for approximately a week so that the meta can settle in; until then, this can be used as a discussion period for the sets listed in the thread (even if some of them might not be viable in ORAS, you can discuss their uses in XY if you'd like)
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