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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Persona 5
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Aug 18, 2009
    OU Viability Ranking Thread

    Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. It's about time the OU subforum joined in on the action!

    The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

    • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Forretress can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.
    Note that the overall tier list is in no particular order.


    PRELIMINARY BW OU Ranking tier list V3

    (Subject to change & in alphabetical order for now!)

    S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
    • [​IMG] Jirachi
    • [​IMG] Keldeo
    • [​IMG] Politoed
    • [​IMG] Tyranitar
    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    • [​IMG] Alakazam
    • [​IMG] Breloom
    • [​IMG] Celebi
    • [​IMG] Dragonite
    • [​IMG] Ferrothorn
    • [​IMG] Garchomp
    • [​IMG] Hippowdon
    • [​IMG] Kyurem-B
    • [​IMG] Landorus-T
    • [​IMG] Latias
    • [​IMG] Latios
    • [​IMG] Ninetales
    • [​IMG] Rotom-W
    • [​IMG] Scizor
    • [​IMG] Starmie
    • [​IMG] Terrakion
    • [​IMG] Gengar
    • [​IMG] Gyarados
    • [​IMG] Heatran
    • [​IMG] Jellicent
    • [​IMG] Mamoswine
    • [​IMG] Salamence
    • [​IMG] Skarmory
    • [​IMG] Tentacruel
    • [​IMG] Thundurus-T
    • [​IMG] Venusaur
    • [​IMG] Volcarona

    B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
    • [​IMG] Dugtrio
    • [​IMG] Forretress
    • [​IMG] Gliscor
    • [​IMG] Gothitelle
    • [​IMG] Hydreigon
    • [​IMG] Kyurem
    • [​IMG] Lucario
    • [​IMG] Magnezone
    • [​IMG] Mew
    • [​IMG] Stoutland
    • [​IMG] Toxicroak
    • [​IMG] Tornadus
    • [​IMG] Amoonguss
    • [​IMG] Abomasnow
    • [​IMG] Bronzong
    • [​IMG] Feraligatr
    • [​IMG] Gastrodon
    • [​IMG] Kingdra
    • [​IMG] Reuniclus
    • [​IMG] Sableye
    • [​IMG] Sawsbuck
    • [​IMG] Sharpedo
    • [​IMG] Xatu
    • [​IMG] Zapdos
    • [​IMG] Blissey
    • [​IMG] Chansey
    • [​IMG] Cloyster
    • [​IMG] Cobalion
    • [​IMG] Conkeldurr
    • [​IMG] Darmanitan
    • [​IMG] Espeon
    • [​IMG] Haxorus
    • [​IMG] Infernape
    • [​IMG] Mienshao
    • [​IMG] Moltres
    • [​IMG] Roserade
    • [​IMG] Victini
    • [​IMG] Weavile
    • [​IMG] Wobbuffet

    C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
    • [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    • [​IMG] Azelf
    • [​IMG] Azumarill
    • [​IMG] Chandelure
    • [​IMG] Cresselia
    • [​IMG] Donphan
    • [​IMG] Froslass
    • [​IMG] Heracross
    • [​IMG] Jolteon
    • [​IMG] Lilligant
    • [​IMG] Metagross
    • [​IMG] Shaymin
    • [​IMG] Slowbro
    • [​IMG] Slowking
    • [​IMG] Virizion

    D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
    • [​IMG] Accelgor
    • [​IMG] Bisharp
    • [​IMG] Cofagrigus
    • [​IMG]Crobat
    • [​IMG] Crustle
    • [​IMG] Ditto
    • [​IMG] Durant
    • [​IMG] Empoleon
    • [​IMG] Exeggutor
    • [​IMG] Hitmontop
    • [​IMG] Jynx
    • [​IMG] Kabutops
    • [​IMG] Nidoqueen
    • [​IMG] Ninjask
    • [​IMG] Porygon2
    • [​IMG] Quagsire
    • [​IMG] Raikou
    • [​IMG] Rotom-H
    • [​IMG]Sandslash
    • [​IMG] Sceptile
    • [​IMG] Scrafty
    • [​IMG] Seismitoad
    • [​IMG] Smeargle
    • [​IMG] Snorlax
    • [​IMG] Staraptor
    • [​IMG] Togekiss
    • [​IMG] Vaporeon
    • [​IMG] Victreebel
    • [​IMG] Zoroark

    ~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
    ~No flaming
    ~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
    ~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.
    ~TFC is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.

    Happy posting ♪♪
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
  2. joshe

    joshe the best

    Jan 4, 2009
    hello i would like to petition to move forretress to A tier up from B Tier. i know you wanted to do this initially but tfc sux so ima try. anyways, I am very lazy so i give tl;drs that are pretty straightforward anyway SO:

    - better spinner than starmie cos starmie sux outside of eating rain for breakfast
    - spins and spikes (makes it better than deo-d of course because it fills up two roles)
    - boss voltturn makes it fit perfectly in the meta

  3. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Live Chat Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 8, 2010
    man EVERY meta is getting into these viability rankings eh? question - should we be concerned with ranking niches of stuff below OU? perhaps not a big concern in lower tiers, but especially applicable here because weather makes a TON of things viable in OU, that just don't get enough usage to be up here and are instead languishing in lower tiers. case in point: stoutland (i'm just waiting for yee to come in and say "stoutland should be OU" /lighthumor)
  4. Dark Fallen Angel


    May 23, 2012
    Actually Starmie is a better spinner on rain if you are using it alongside Ferrothorn. Forretress' place on B tier is well reserved, as it has some advantages over Starmie and other spinners and Ferrothorn, but it is generally setup bait... Also, it resists Bug-type moves, but Genesect almost always carry Flamethrower.

    And I want to know why Scizor and Ferrothorn are B tier and not A tier. Scizor can effectively sweep once you remove some walls like Skarmory (not much different from other A-tier sweepers) and has priority. And as for Ferrothorn... I just want to know which flaw such good mixed wall that has amazing resistances and support moves has that prevents him from being A tier.
  5. superbadd


    Jun 26, 2012
    I think Espeon should be moved up to A tier. It's able to counter a good portion of hazard setters(biggest one being deoxys-d) while being a great supporter with dual screens. espeon also find itself a niche on baton pass teams, it can't be taunted or phased out, which allows the BP chains to continually run through. Espeon works quite well against balanced teams thanks to the DS set, it also fits quite well on HO teams being able to keep hazards off the field while maintaining an excellent offensive presence thaks to it's mighty 130 SpA and great 110 spe. Tyranitar, scizor and gensect may be a rode block for espeon, but she has way of getting around all of them by either running HP fire or simply baton passing. Espeon also checks/counters focus sash lead terrakion with the DS set(which is really common now) along with a multitude of other fighting types like keldeo and infernape(with the CM set) which she outspeeds by 2 points and can OHKO with psychic/psychock after one boost.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    Deo-D and Torn-D should really be in the S tier.

    Those 2 along with Genesect are pretty much the biggest suspects in OU right now.

    Tornadsus-T does not need much explaining. Awesome speed tier, awesome STAB move and coverage with only 2 moves, good power and the ability to go mixed, coupled with one of the best abilities in the game, Regenerator. Its only real disadvantage is that it wants rain up to be used to its full potential, but this is not such a problem seeing as rain is everywhere. Not to mention that you can still use Tonr-T in a weatherless team as a decent scarfer with Air Slash.

    Deo-D is the best hazards setter for offensive teams, and offensive teams pretty much dominate the meta right now, so it is no wonder that he should be in the S rank right?
  7. Porii Sames

    Porii Sames

    Mar 13, 2011
    Where the hell is Xatu? Xatu is MUCH better than Espeon on like 90% of teams with better bulk, Roost, typing, Heat Wave, U-Turn, less speed for Gyro, actually beating Skarm/Ferro, etc.

    Putting it below the atrocious METAGROSS is just an insult.

    I'd also make the arguement about Starmie being S tier just because of how damn good it is at doing its job; it can be bulky and beat Scizor/Tar/Ferro, it can 2HKO or OHKO any ghost in the game, it can burn things, obviously it spins, status recovery, fast, Recover, excellent typing, etc.
  8. zbabyovr9000


    Aug 22, 2012
    Infernape and Jolteon and Gastrodon don't get a mention?
  9. G-Von


    Jun 19, 2011
    I know this is the OU Viability Thread, but that sounds like we would be allowed to post UU-and-under pokemon as well since some of them are viable. Anyway, as a sweeper, I would nominate Heracross to be in A tier. Slap a Choice Scarf on there and run Moxie. Hell, even Swords Dance would run through many stall teams. Plus, it can still run Guts so it is a pretty big risk if you try to burn it.
  10. Dark Fallen Angel


    May 23, 2012
    But Starmie is not game changing, and it can't really beat Scizor, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn as you say. Ferrothorn easily shrug off Hidden Power Fire in rain, Scizor only fears Hidden Power Fire and rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, and bulkier versions of Tyranitar can sponge unboosted Hydro Pumps in sandstorm. Both Scizor and Tyranitar can also pursuit Starmie.

    Also, without a Psychic-type attack, Starmie needs a rain-boosted Hydro Pump to OHKO Gengar, and Hydro Pump has shaky accuracy. With the right EV spread, Jellicent is not 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Its tipying is not also that amazing; it has crippling weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit. Not to mention that most Starmie sets have some flaws that prevent them from being staples for most teams.

    Starmie is actually a great pokémon whose pros easily overshadow its cons; definitively A ranking, but definitively not S ranking.

    Unfortunately Heracross has a middling speed. It can be solved by Choice Scarf, but this strips Heracross from its versatility and there are many Scarfers that still outspeed him. It functions better as a late-game sweeper, not much of a revenge killer. Not A material in my opinion.
  11. superbadd


    Jun 26, 2012
    I've used xatu extensively, and I wouldn't say it's better then espeon. Espeon has a few perks over xatu, one of them is baton pass which allows it to escape from tyranitar. This allows espeon to function similarly to blaziken in dw ou(albeit a lot less powerful) Sure xatu has u-turn, but that move does't allow it to escape pursuit. . Second espeon is in a higher speed tier and has a huge special attack. Xatu is often used as set up bait while espeon can actually threaten teams with its power. While xatu may have heatwave, espeon has HP fire which is only slightly weaker given espeon's 130 is better than Xatu's 95. Third, this meta is more geared to HO teams, which espeon can fit on quite well, while xatu is more inclined for bulky offense. Finally, xatu can't threaten terrakion, one of the more premier SR setters, while espeon can xatu is also SR weak. I think espeon is just slighlty better than xatu which is why I think xatu should be either B tier or low A.
  12. G-Von


    Jun 19, 2011
    I understand what you're saying, but there is a reason why it is the number 1 used pokemon for UU right now. Seeing how it is UU, than I could understand it being B-tier because of it. A SubPunch set could also work wonders at wall breaking. Heracross is more versatile than I thought offensively. I still think A-tier would not be over the top.
    Numera likes this.
  13. TPO3

    TPO3 Never practice; Always perform.

    Aug 16, 2009
    ...and yet there are no defensive threats present at all until we reach the B-tier.

    I don't understand why Ferrothorn is not an A-threat, under Support if not Defensive. It sets up spikes consistently not just early game, but even late-game after they get spun. It beats all the spinners in OU. Donphan, Starmie, Forretress, and Cloyster (lol.) It can Power Whip 3 out of the 4, and Forretress can't touch you anyways. It might use you as setup bait, of Volt Switch out, but it can't spin your hazards without taking Iron Barbs damage (and maybe even Rocky Helmet.) It has a plethora of supporting moves. Stealth Rock if you can find nobody else to use it, Thunder Wave to cripple common switch-ins, like Heatran, or Infernape. It has Leech Seed to consistently heal itself, even without Leftovers. Two massive STAB options, in Power Whip and Gyro Ball. It requires very little support, and can actually survive things like Fire Blast or HP Fire if they aren't STAB attacks, or if Rain is up. I don't see how this isn't A-tier, if not S-tier.

    Skarmory I can understand a bit more due to the power creep. It doesn't wall all physical attackers like it used to with Terrakion and co. being released. However, it still sets up Spikes, and Phazes, and heals itself all game with Roost. It's the best switch-in to physical Dragon-attacks, as even Haxorus's +2 Aqua Tail in Rain, and Dragonite's +1 Fire Punch in Sun fail to OHKO, and you can just Roost the damage whenever you want. Ground immunities are always nice too. With Genesect and Thundurus-T being released, in addition to the popularity of Rotom-W, it's definitely not S-tier, but I still feel a case could be made for low A-tier. I can understand this one in B-tier though.

    Blissey in C-tier is just wrong.
    Blissey is still the best special wall in the game. I agree that too many pkmn run Mixed, or just have way too much power, and can actually muscle through Blissey (Sheer Force Landorus, for example.), but Blissey is still a defensive behemoth, and I think C-rank is just way too low.

    Chansey is also down in C-Rank. It doesn't have Leftovers, sure, but at the same time, it walls pkmn like Latios who would normally break through Blissey with Psyshock. I also think Chansey is sorely underestimated.

    Not to mention that both of the pink blobs now give away 300+ HP if they run a Wish set, and are the best Clerics we have. I think they both can be moved up to B-rank, since they don't wall a significant portion like they used to, but are still tanks.

    I'd also like to see Scizor moved up to A. Great typing, an absurdly powerful U-turn, priority that is more powerful than Extremespeed, being able to KO Dragons from 50+ % health, and being able to trap key threats with Pursuit. Genesect might be S-tier, but it still doesn't outclass CB Scizor.
  14. doughboy

    doughboy backhand slap ready
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 4, 2011
    I think the clear-cut way to get my opinion across is just go through one class at a time and then looking at the debatable Pokes in A-rank. Without proper formatting it could get very tricky to talk about and counter eachother's claims. Alkinesthetase, I would wait to go through all the OU pokes first and clean up that before we even get through the lower tiers pokes, even Amoonguss (the amount of noms for them would be substantial). I'll add on to these as I go because it will take a very long time to argue out each one.

    Anyway here we go!

    Debatable Pokemon in A Rank


    Move to S-rank with little doubt. To a new player, Heatran's high regard in a rain-dominated metagame is strange, but a deeper look reveals how great of a Pokemon it is. First off Heatran's has the capacity to fill both an offensive and defensive role, fulfilling the criterion of high unpredictability and versatility. Let's take a look at its on-site sets:
    • Defensive Capability:
      - Sp. Def Heatran: At the forefront for stopping the huge force that is Genesect in the tier. Extreme importance for non-weather teams to handle Sun teams as well. Stall utilizes it to stop stall breakers as well.
      - TormentTran: An offshot of Sp. Def Tran that is the prime user of Torment in the game. Can annoy and stall (moreso annoy) opponents to death.
    • Offensive Capability:
      - Offensive SR: Consider to be among the best SR setter in OU and is the standard set for Heatran. Checking threats, utility, and offense hard-hitting offense all in one.
      - Choice Specs: My favorite Heatran set and it is the one that really emphasizes hard-hitting. Can run a +Sp. Atk nature and proceed to do stuff like hit Rotom-W for %60 with Overheat! Can be played as bulky or fast with each having their merits.
      - Choice Scarf: Good revenge killer that has excellent coverage. Only Heatran set to beat Dugtrio outside of Shed Shell
    • Utility Capability
      - Magma Storm Trapper: Heatran can use his signature move to make common counters like Blissey or Bulky Waters die or be used to trap opposing weather inducers (Politoed and Tyranitar)
      - Sunny Day: Analysis says it is used to eliminate weather of an opposing team once their inducer dies.

    That's quite a large list of roles Heatran can fill and it excels at it unlike any other Pokemon. Really the key to Heatran's success is his typing with Flash Fire, as they give it a formidable set of resists (especially Dragon) to be utilized on offensive and defensive teams unlike while being neutral to SR. Not to mention it allows him to increase the power of his best STAB (and one of best attacking-types in OU) Fire to lay on pay to the opponent and to come in with impunity. Overall, Heatran ability to find itself on any team with a large amount of roles makes it an S-tier Poke in my eyes. It's weakness to the attacking types ground (4x), water (2x), and fighting (2x) are mitigated by his large amount of strengths.

    Up to S-tier some doubt: No poke can cause stall and offense so much trouble at the same time like Tornadus-T. Very small amount of counters and checks. Only limited by rain, but it isn't exactly limiting is it haha
    Up to S-tier with little doubt: So many sets, just is sometimes reliant on Rapid Spin.
    Up to S-tier with some doubt: Defining offensive Pokemon of the generation. Now it can set up SR as well. Can be tailored specifically to a team to solve specific problems. If not using a choice item it's really Close Combat+Stone Edge+2 custom moves (Offensive teams - Rock Polish, Defensive - Swords dance, Deoxys-D - Taunt, Need Hazard - SR, Laying Down Pain - Substitute, Scouting - Protect)
    Latias / Latios
    Down to B-tier with little doubt: Very limited in their capability and a potential liability due to Genesect, Pursuit Scizor, and Tyranitar. However, they offer great resists and good offensive potential.

    edit 1: Just like to point out to the poster below me that Tornadus-T isn't absolutely crippled by lack of rain like Veensaur and Sand Rush pokes, or Volcarona without Rapid Spin. What makes it so good is that it has an extremely limited number of checks and it troubles offensive and defensive teams alike. Volcarona always has multiple checks and counters that can easily be implemented on a team (FFS SR is on every tram). Sp. Def Jirachi, Zapdos, or your own weather (aka ninetales, hippo, and ttar) is not.
  15. mrb


    Jun 13, 2011
    Tornadus-T is definitely A rank, not S. It depends so heavily on rain support that it is very hard for it to function by itself. Otherwise, it wouldn't threaten much with 70% or 50% accurate STAB move. It can punch huge holes under the rain, but so can Volcarona with rapid spin support.

    Speaking of which, Volcarona deserves to be moved up to A rank. After just one QD, it can easily sweep a huge portion of the metagame. The resistance to priority and ability to wall Genesect is awesome too. It can do well in every weather; Hurricane can be used in rain. God help you if it gets the chance to get two QDs.
  16. TheFourthChaser

    TheFourthChaser #TimeForChange
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Oct 13, 2008
    You sir are damn right.

    Forry doesn't spin that well, this metagame is so damn offensive that Forry can be taken down by Toed, Keldeo, Thund, whatever before it's job is done. "Eating rain for breakfast" is pretty damn important considering this is a metagame where Drizzle is so easily superior to any other weather. Resisting Bug moves basically means U-Turn where I can go to something like Keldeo and BAM no spinning. Better than Deo-D? Really?

    I can see the argument for Ferrothorn but not Scizor in this current metagame. Unless you're running Swords Dance Scizor(which isn't that good atm) Genesect is just easily superior.

    This is because the metagame is incredibly offensive to the point where Stall isn't worth running for many players. When more bans are put into place I'm sure more defensive mons will move up, blame the shitty meta.

    These I disagree with. Heatran really suffers from the abundance of Rain in the metagame and, while a great check/counter to Genesect, shouldn't be moved up because of this problem. I like Dragonite in A tier because the SR weakness combined with the fact that the metagame's offense is tough on Dragonite, you now have Pokemon like Genesect, Garchomp, and Keldeo giving problems to the Dragon Dance set. Lati@s were a Pokemon I actually would've put in S-Tier but PK didn't agree, Tyranitar usage will no doubt decrease with the Sand Veil ban and Scizor usage has already had a big drop because of Genesect, which takes big damage from either dragon.

    Like I told PK before the post; I think Toxicroak and Volcarona should switch places on the list. Volc really suffered from rain and even the Hurricane set hates facing Garchomp, Keldeo, and the Therians. While Toxicroak isnt fond of Chomp or Genies it does great in rain and can make a really nice switch-in for Keldeo, which is arguably broken in Rain. Also to clear things up I am assuming Scarf for Keldeo in my mentions of it because it was the most popular set on Suspect and is really damn good. I believe in this metagame that hitting hard and fast is key and thats why Pokemon like Latios and Keldeo are so good, they don't require set up. A lot of set up mons like the mentioned Dnite and Volc suffer because any Scarf mon(which are incredibly popular for reasons I've said) can come in on the set up and either force the switch or take out the mon setting up.
  17. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

    Aug 11, 2011
    I disagree with DoughBoy's proposition of moving Dragonite up to S tier. First, from my experience, hazards are easy to keep on the field. Some people consider spinning to be easy, but I consider spinblocking to be easy (I'm using Gengar for spinblocking ffs >.<), and that's basically Dragonite's niche in OU gone. If you do get a Spin off, you're easily revenge killed by Genesect once Multiscale is broken, and Mamoswine's new-found popularity in BW2 isn't doing Dragonite (or any 4x Ice weak Dragon) any favors. Once Multiscale's broken, Mamoswine can easily OHKO Dragonite with Ice Shard and even LO Jolly Mamoswine OHKOes unboosted Dragonite through Multiscale. Additionally, when I used Dragonite, I found it was more dependent on Rapid Spin support than a lot of other Pokemon were, so I really doubt Dragonite being S-tier material at all.

    Anyway, I'd like to propose Breloom to be dropped to B rank. Don't get me wrong, Techniloom is pretty good, I'm just doubtful of its ability to sweep easily. I know it can sweep, but from my experience, Fighting/Grass is such an awful STAB combination that I found sweeps easy to cut short. The amount of Fighting resists is ridiculous: Dragonite, Salamence, Latis, Therians, Landorus, Starmie, Gyarados, Volcarona, Venusaur, and hell, even Toxicroak if you wanna bring up bad pokes too. As I already mentioned, Fighting/Grass is a terrible STAB combination, resisted by loads of Pokemon in OU. In fact, a large number of the Fighting resists I listed resist Grass as well, four of them 4x resisting Grass. Against a Pokemon resistant to Mach Punch and you haven't lowered their Speed with Low Sweep, well, I'll just say that slow and frail is not the best of combinations. Additionally, I've faced Breloom with teams that were allegedly weak to Techniloom and had little to no trouble just because I knew the thing was likely to go for Spore the first turn.
  18. Schpoonman


    Oct 3, 2010
    Volcarona is instantly revenge'd by Terrakion, as well as by both forms of Tornadus under the rain.

    Both of your STABs do little to Tornadus-T in the rain (which he will be if you're not insane) and a Timid max Special Attack Life Orb +1 Hurricane fails to OHKO, sometimes even after Stealth Rocks.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf lurks in the shadows
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    I disagree with Heatran going to S rank. He walls many threats, true, has loads of utility and is a decent attacker, BUT rain dominates, and this can't be ignored. Which means that if you want to use an offensive Heatran that is not a wasted team slot you also need to use it with Sand or Sun, meaning that it needs the right support to function best, exactly the criteria of A rank.

    Same for Dragonite. It needs Rapid Spin support and elimination of certain walls, such as Skarmory, and those two facts alone make it heavy support reliant, justifying it being put in A rank.

    And finally i believe too that Ferrothorn should be in A rank. Walls many mons, sets up any hazard you want, annoys the hell out of everything with Leech Seed and Proetect, scouting choiced users and stacking passive damage, and is very difficult to set-up and eliminate unless you pack a Magnezone. I can see however why one would put it in B rank in this very offensive paced meta, where Ferro could often be a liability against faster pokes that can seriously hurt him. But i still believe that Ferro should be low A rank imo.
  20. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex Mew is blue
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 28, 2010
    Deoxys-D and Tornadus-T should definitely both be moved to S tier, imo. I think Terrakion moving to S tier should be taken into consideration as well, though I don't see it as S tier worthy as the former two

    Deoxys easily fits the criteria of being able to fulfill its role while limiting free turns for its opponents. The only pure stops Deoxys has are Espeon and Xatu, both of whom are generally predictable in how they're going to approach Deoxys. Other than those 2, Deoxys is going to get a layer of rocks up (and many times, one or two layers of spikes) 99% of the time. The few pokemon who run faster taunts than it (notably Tornadus-T and Mew) also have no way to stop deoxys if it's running magic coat. If Tornadus-T leads against it, a u-turn is going to do very little to deoxys-D and will allow it to set up a layer of hazards on the next turn safely. Mew is in the same boat, though it less often runs u-turn.

    Tornadus-T is probably the biggest rain threat in existence right now. It's dependence on rain is almost a non-issue. It's faster than both Ninetales and Tyranitar, so it can easily u-turn out to politoed if either of them try to come in on a hurricane (which is unlikely since ninetales is going to eat a lot of damage if it does, and tyranitar doesn't really care to take a superpower or u-turn either). The only pokemon who is a consistently safe switch in to it is Jirachi (I wouldn't consider Blissey a safe switch-in since there's not really anything blissey can do to it. If it continues to switch in, it's going to wear itself out into superpower ko range.) Regenerator is just icing on the cake, allowing it to significantly mitigate its stealth rock weakness.

    Terrakion is a huge powerhouse right now that can do just about everything. Now it has access to both stealth rocks AND taunt, allowing it to not only support its team, but still maintain its offensive presence. The number of sets it can run is astounding. Stealth rocks/taunt, Sub SD, Rock polish, Sub + 3 attacks, SD Rock gem, Band, and Scarf, many of which require different checks.

    I disagree with mrb about volcarona deserving A tier. While it's true that volcarona can be an utter terror under the right conditions, there are several very common things that reliably wall it. It's also extremely stealth rock weak, and is completely reliant on its spinner doing its job in order to be at all useful. If you can't keep rocks off your field, volcarona is going to be a burden to your team. It also doesn't help that volcarona's typing doesn't lend itself to being able to switch in on many things.

    What a sad day when the former OU god Scizor is relegated to B tier. Deservingly so, I think. With the introduction of the faster, more versatile Genesect, Scizor just finds itself unable to keep up. Scizor's SD set is just flat out stopped by so many things (including genesect), that it's only decent option is running band, which is extremely dangerous in this metagame where allowing your opponent the right free turn can be the difference between victory and defeat.

    One question. Is the order each pokemon appears at in its tier arbitrary or are they rankings within the tier (IE is breloom ranked above tyranitar, or does tyranitar just happen to be placed in a lower spot)? EDIT: Oh, alphabetical. Silly me
  21. Bent1ey


    Feb 22, 2012
    I'd have thought that Tentacruel and Ferrothorn would deserve a place in the A tier, they are pretty solid at their niches and got versatility covered.

    Also, there is a typo in the intro that says "in the RU metagame", unless you mean that Metagross deserves to go into RU, which I think it's to exagerate a bit :p
  22. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    ^Agreeing pretty much completely with LA. Also, Latias is much more deserving of a spot in the A tier than Latios imo. With the lack of Scizor and stall, Physically Defensive Latias is one of the most effective bulky sweepers around; it also has a lot of other viable sets, including Specs and Life Orb support. Defensively, it absolutely thrives in this metagame, beating the likes of SF Landorus, Thundurus, Breloom, Keldeo, and many Rain and Sun sweepers with ease.

    On the other hand, Latios is more predictable, and the prevalence of Heatran, Tyranitar, and Genesect in the metagame really stops it from doing its job effectively. Should be B tier unless there are any compelling arguments otherwise.
  23. FaceFaceFace


    May 15, 2012
    Tornadus-T, technically, should be A-tier since it requires heavy rain support. But the thing is, once there is rain (and Politoed being in S-tier says a lot), T^2 is easily S-tier/suspect. Especially with Heatran builds now diverging from defensive sets to more offensive ones, as well as Jirachi being seen a lot less since Chompie's back. So, your two solid checks are now gone.

    Keldeo in my mind should be borderline between A and B. It's power in rain + fighting STAB coverage is undeniable, but Hydro Pump being 80% accurate is very iffy. WIthout rain, it's like a SpA Terrakion with an 80% STAB move...or Surf. With Keldeo's lackluster defenses, a miss can be very costly.

    Deoxys-D perhaps for S-tier (but by no means broken).

    Tyranitar...should be B tier with all them fighting coverage moves running around like syphilis.
  24. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Oct 22, 2006
    I'm surprised Sableye isn't on this list at all. Prankster Will-o-wisp is capable of crippling a majority of the metagame. Even if they don't rely on their physical moves, the residual burn damage is enough to prevent that pokemon from coming in often and lessen the damage dealt overall.

    Sableye may not have the best defenses, but its typing allows for some free switches. Being immune to fighting, psychic and having no weaknesses is a great asset. It's very difficult to take it out in one hit. It's not because it has great defenses, but because the attacks that do one shot sableye are predictable. You can easily bring in another pokemon to take it.

    Priority taunt also shouldn't be overlooked. it can shut down stall teams and prevent you from being swept by a DDlumnite. Additionally, it's one of the best spin blockers in the game, especially when you pair it up in sun. Scalds and Surfs from Starmie and Tenta, the best rapid spinners in OU are doing significantly less and you can cripple them with Foul Play/ Snarl and Burn. It has a niche that no other pokemon in the game can emulate.

    Sableye does have its shortcomings. volcarona, Heatran, and many common pokemon in sun don't mind switching into it at all and setting up on it. It can't risk staying in and taunting or else it will be destroyed by their fire STAB. Scald burns can definitely wear it down and some bulky waters don't mind the burn as much.
  25. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude !
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Mar 15, 2012
    hmmmm well i think Mamoswine deserves a spot in the A tier.

    A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

    while it can't upfront sweep teams it checks and stops so many pokemon. A lot of them are very common pokemon like Dragon-types and the therians. Dragonite, Salamence, Tornadus-T, Thunderous-T, Landorus-T are all ohko'd with Ice Shard after Stealth Rock damage assuming Mamoswine is the common Adamant Life Orb set. Its Earthqauke is also extremely powerful coming of 130 attack. He has got a great offensive stab combination to back up his great attack stat as well. As the description of the A Rank says the pokemon needs some support and has some flaws which is also what Mamoswine has. The only things holding Mamoswinee back is its weakness to two powerful types in OU Water and Fighting.
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