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The "Perfect" Stall

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by C and E, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. C and E

    C and E

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    [​IMG]



    Stall Like You've Never Seen It Before



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    Introduction



    It started with Keldeo, then you had the Therian Formes, then Genesect came along. Then Sheer Force Landorus starting surprising the shit out of people. Now the cuckoos at PO want to retest Kyerum B? Haha..hopefully the ever-changing metagame has made its last changes. I seriously do not enjoy constantly having to re-tweak and modify my team to keep up with some of these borderline Uber threats. But hey thats what Stall is for right? Now most people know by now that I love using Snorlax as my main special defensive wall. For this team I decided to give a shot at a Stall team without the Great Wall of Fat. The first teams I tested sans-Snorlax just didnt have a good enough defensive presence to take on a wide variety of threats. It seemed that in order to make up for Snorlaxs lost presence I had to run 3 steel mons to provide my team with a powerful sp. defensive and defensive core. Snorlax shined in countering SmashPass teams, but for this squad, the plan is to get Toxic Spikes up quickly and since i have many mons running protect and Substitute, its just good ol' Stall tactics the rest of the way. It took many tests and moveset changes to arrive at this current team. I dont think this squad will be undergoing any future changes. For now this is one of my better Stall teams for the current metagame. So let me get into the basics.... ​

    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn (M) @ Leftovers​
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Leech Seed
    - Protect
    - Power Whip
    - Spikes



    Standard defensive Ferrothorn Set. Usually I liked to run a surprise item on my Ferrothorn like Occa Berry or Shed Shell, but since I have 2 other steel types to sponge choiced dragon attacks I figured I might as well go with a Ferrothorn that provided better longevity. Provided I dont need Ferro later in the battle, he normally acts as my primary switch in to Rotom-W. Having protect to scout Rotom really comes in handy for obvious reasons. With a well balanced EV spread Ferrothorns primary responsibilities are to counter Gyarados, sponge water attacks and lay hazards if its safe to do so. Alright... say I dont get toxic spikes up in time and Keldeo decided it wants to sweep my team. Modest 252sp.attk Keldeo Secret Sword at +1 deals 84.1%-99.4% to my Ferrothorn, so his chances at 1HKO'ing ferrothorn if just rocks are up is 0. I am usually on the receiving side of Ferrothorns annoying tactics, so its nice to actually be dishing it out this time.
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    Tentacruel (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 236 HP / 216 Def / 36 SAtk / 20 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Rapid Spin



    I know. The days of Acid Spray/Giga Drain Tentacruel are gone. I decided to take advantage of Rain Dish this time and also run protect. I went with a defensive Tentacruel since my team is pretty fighting weak. Cruel can take banded uturns and can act as a back up check to SD scizor if it so happens to be running jolly and outspeeds my Heatran. Adamant 252attk CB Close Combat from Terrakion does around 40%, so while he doesnt take them too comfortably he at least doesnt get 2 hit KO by it. Tentacruel's primary responsibilities are obviously to spin, set up toxic spikes if they will greatly help the team and sponge as many uturns as possible.
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    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 HP / 208 Def / 60 SAtk
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic



    What an underrated Pokemon Bronzong is. He is the sole centerpiece of my stalling efforts in this current metagame. Acrobat Gliscor-Check, Sheer Force Landorus-Check, Tornadus in rain-Check, Mamoswine-Check, Salamence-Check, DD Dragonite-Check. I could go on forever. With Bronzong's Steel typing, many resistances and immunity to Ground attacks and hazards, he was a must have for this team. Bronzong can also help my toxic stalling efforts by inducing toxic on certain mons that dont expect it. I almost decided to remove stealth rocks for Skill Swap for those certain situations and primarily for CM Reuniclus since my team is very weak against it. But the Tyranitar set I will soon reveal was just too hard to pass up on, hence Bronzong had to be my Stealth Rocks carrier. Also for sun teams with Dugtrio its better to have SR on someone other than Tyranitar.
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    Gengar (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Hypnosis
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast



    Simply put, whenever Im running a grass mon that doesnt carry a sleep inducing move and Gengar on the same team, more than likely said Gengar will be running Sub/Hypnosis. The set is very low risk, high reward in my opinion. Think of a faster, meaner looking Breloom with better coverage. I know Ive explained it many times, but the theory behind the set is simple. Gengar has fighting, ground, and normal immunities. If you happen to switch into a choiced attack that is resisted or into any mon that doesnt want to deal with Gengar, then after setting substitute you will have 2 shots at landing Hypnosis. If the first misses and you dont want to risk losing Gengar, then switch out. Im no probability expert but I believe if first 60% chance fails, then the chance of it activating on the 2nd shot rises to 84%. But like I said I never looked into it myself. If you happen to land Hypnosis on a mon that walls Gengar like Jirachi or Gastrodon, just switch immediately to the appropriate mon that will threaten the check, namely Heatran and Ferrothorn, respectively. If I can manage to double switch my Gengar into a Xatu, I can really turn the tide against a sun team with a landed Hypnosis. This Gengar also shines in punishing teams using Deoxys lead.
    [​IMG]
    Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 212 HP / 136 SDef / 160 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Lava Plume
    - Torment



    A set that definitely needs to see more use in the OU metagame. If Heatran is near full health and I managed to get up toxic spikes or toxic enough pokes earlier in the battle, then Heatran's red eyes are seeing "good game." Without a hard counter or phazer to impede it, Torment Tran can easily stall out multiple pokes if he needs to. If you so happen to be burned or toxic'd, then facing this thing can be a hair pulling experience for you. Need I mention that this thing is basically the best Genesect check around. While I can definitely use Heatran to sponge dragon attacks and the occasional expected Tornadus Hurricane, I usually like to save my Heatran for late game cleanup stalling after all hazards have been set and all spinners have been eliminated.
    [​IMG]
    Tyranitar (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: ? HP / ? SDef / ? Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Block
    - Dragon Dance
    - Rest
    - Rock Slide



    Alright. Here We Go. The "Wild Card" of this team. The featured Gimmick shall you say. I really never wanted to reveal this set, because much of the sucess of it relies on it being a total surprise, but what type of RMT would it be if I left a poke out. Anyway, I remember a guy using this set on me a couple of times in the early days of PO. As laughable as it seems, it actually does have some great uses. I cannot disclose the exact EV spread, but I can tell you that HP and Sp. Def are good enough to take weak scalds from Jellicent or Politoed and Tentacruel in sand, effortlessly. With this set obviously I dont have to worry about the 107% scald burn rate. This Tyrantiar can switch into a Tentacruel and just dare it to stay in and spin. With its ability to fend off weak scalds and rest off any burns, water type spinners like Blastoise, Tentacruel, and Starmie, if not LO Hydropump, can be trapped and eliminated, thus clearing the path for Tentacruel, Ferrothorn, and Bronzong to go Hazard-crazy on the opponent. As I said before if standard bulky politoed ever dares to stay in on Tyranitar in sand becuse he thinks he can get lucky with a burn, and you manage to block and set up on it, then the weather war should be won right then and there. Just get to +3 or +4, rest when needed and take it out. It is nearly impossible to lose the weather war against rain if youre using this Tyranitar set. The decision to go with this Tyranitar was made primarily because I needed a mon to act as a reliable status fodder. In the event that Ferrothorn is ever burned, then bulky waters like Milotic, Jellicent and Vaporeon could really run a number on my team, but with Sp. Def DD Blocking Tyrantiar that threat was taken care of.



    Closing Remarks



    Alright guys there you have it. This Stall team has definitely proven its worth against even the best Hyper Offense teams on the PO ladder (I really dont know how competitive "Showdown" is at the moment. Not to mention many of Smogons best battlers now battle primarily at PO anyway). I mentioned earlier the gaping CM Reuniclus weakness, but Torment Tran can stall that to a degree. Feel free to rate and let me know of any other big holes in this team.
  2. pacachomp

    pacachomp

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Hey CnE, this is a pretty cool team, nice to see TormentTran getting some more love. There are a few problems that I think we can patch up though. First of all you look very weak to residual damage and / or repeated beatings, since your team lacks any kind of reliable recovery (Rest without Chesto does NOT count lol). So basically, any Spiker plus spinblocker will cause you a world of pain; offensive teams with a bulky core might also be able to just wear you down over a longer time frame.

    CB Terrakion also looks troublesome, and Keldeo (Choice Specs especially) to a lesser extent. Terrak can come in repeatedly against Tyranitar, Heatran, or Ferrothorn; if Bronzong switches into a CB Close Combat, it's completely crippled for the rest of the game, while everything else on the team is potentially OHKO'd. Keldeo can basically just spam Hydro Pump; Ferrothorn can't switch in straight away without risking Secret Sword, and Tentacruel is setup fodder for CM variants (and can also just be blasted through).

    It's tricky with stall to cover weaknesses without changing the structure of the entire team. You could run Wish Chansey over Tyranitar (which I think really doesn't fit on this team), Slowbro > Bronzong, and then put Stealth Rock on Heatran, or Ferrothorn even if TormentTran is really working for you. Wish gives your team as a whole a lot of extra longevity and is especially useful for Tentacruel; Slowbro beats almost all the same things as Bronzong, basically, but is a safe first switch into Terrakion; if it's Choiced and hits you with Stone Edge, you can switch to Ferrothorn and Regenerate. Finally, if you're having problems with Reuniclus (and between Gengar and TormentTran it shouldn't be too much of an issue), just use Disable Gengar.

    Hope that helps, good luck with the team :)
  3. asterat

    asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,030
    I am scared of that tyranitar. You could run crunch though?
  4. Bluwing

    Bluwing

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2012
    Messages:
    629
    Nice team you got here ! But your team has a HUGE weakness to Volcarona that carry HP Ground, it can sweep your whole team at +2 it can setup on 3 of your mons, (Tentacruel, Ferrothorn and Bronzong). To fix this you can give Tyranitar a Tanga Berry, this will let you survive a +1 Bug Buzz and retaliate with Rock Slide. Other than that pretty nice team, and yes I know that was a gimmicky suggestion and you can play around it safely too.
    Due to a pretty nice synergy this team deserves a Luvdisc, its a pretty damn solid stall team if its being played right! :)
  5. generic name

    generic name

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    I haven't seen your team because i'm on PS now, but it looks pretty good.
    CB terrakion always annoys me when i play stall, and tenta can't switch in twice. On the other hand, gengar gets a free sub up so it's not that bad of a weakness, and short of running slowbro/hippo/skarm on the same team there really isn't anything you can do.

    Volc with hp ground (which is the most common hp imo) could certainly sweep you. I guess tanga berry could work well, bulky dtail dnite is best but I think you like your team as it is.

    What do you do against subcm keldeo? after ferro gets worn down it stops being able to take secret swords and after hypnosis is used or keldeo has a sub (or if it misses) gengar can't stop it. It sets up on tenta, ttar, and heatran (half your team) and that other half can hurt it but doesnt enjoy taking repeated hits from keldeo.

    Bronzong is interesting, I have never tried it so i'm sure you know it better than I do, but it seems like tornadus-t can wear it down, I guess levitate is really useful over rachi though. If you have calcs on how much hurricane+u turn does I would be interested in seeing that. After zong gets rocks up it's not soooo scary but it still gets enough recovery for (almost) one turn of life orb every turn and taking away rain will just lose momentum as it u-turns.

    The heatran set is interesting, I mainly like it because it can (sorta) beat cm reuniclus without having to roar. Opposing sub sd terrakion seems like it could cause heatran and you lots of grief without tspikes though.

    You rely a lot on status (as stall should) so an opposing poison type like amoonguss could trouble you.
    Despite all my criticisms it is a great stall team, and I'd like to get to play you with it on PS.
  6. C and E

    C and E

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    I appreciate the feedback guys. When Im facing a Volcarona or Sub CM Keldeo, the two outright biggest threats to this team, my number one priority is getting toxic spikes up on turn 1. If those threats are coupled with Xatu, Amoongus, or Tentacruel, then that can definitely be a detterent, but my Tyranitar is running a hefty HP and sp def. spread. I just didnt want to reveal the speed in order to prevent other battlers from trying to "speedcreep" my set. Tyranitar should be able to take a +1 bug buzz very comfortably. To be honest sub CM Keldeo scares me alot more. If Im facing a team with Tentacruel + Keldeo to block toxic spikes the plan is to get many spikes up to bait Cruel into switching in, when he does switch in I can try either block with Gengar or I can switch in my Tyranitar. If I can trap Cruel with Tyranitar and eliminate it, then things get alot better for me as far as preventing a Keldeo sweep. As far as Tornadus-T, yeah that thing is really a pain. Jirachi and Chansey seem to be the only rock solid counters to it, but with a little prediction, Heatran/Bronzong and Tyranitar (provided I am sure he wouldnt try and superpower) can work together to try and Stall it.
  7. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I'll be your light, your match, your burning sun
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Hi,

    Nice team. It's cool to see that stall is still being used by people other than me. One thing that looks like a pretty big threat is CM Reuniclus- it doesn't mind your hazards, laughs at your walls, and jeers at Gengar once it's poisoned by the Toxic Spikes which you yourself laid down. In fact, most CM pokemon are a pretty big threat- Latias, Espeon, and Volcorona can all set up on Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Bronzong, and Heatran with impunity. You lack strong physical attacks, so taking those pokemon out will be very hard for you. To help combat those pokemon a little bit, I really suggest you change your Tyranitar set.

    Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
    Adamant nature, 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Crunch / Pursuit / Rock Slide / Superpower

    I know you really like your current Ttar, but I think it is really only deadweight. It does not help you handle major threats at all- such as Starmie and other spinners such as Forretress- and I can not lay a finger on any pokemon that would actually stay in vs a Tyranitar that you could actually set up on. Fighting types? Not at all. Water types? Heck no. Grass types? Nope. Rock Slide is your only attacking move, and it's not a good one to sweep with- it has poor accuracy and is not very powerful. Instead, I think SpDef Ttar would help the most here. It can pursuit and trap all of those annoying Psychic types that just roll through your team. As a special wall that hits physically, it will also allow you to beat Calm Minders and Starmie. Your current set does none of that. Pursuit+Crunch to trap, Rock Slide for the occasional Volcorona / Tornadus, and Superpower for coverage.

    Also, what are those 36 SpA evs doing for Tentacruel? I think you should switch to 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe for maximum defense and a bit more SpDef. The extra special attack is not getting you anywhere, especially for a pokemon like Tentacruel.

    Other than that, your team looks pretty solid. You still lack a phazer though, so abusing your hazards might be a bit tough. See if you could maybe squeeze in Roar on Heatran, so you have a bit of added insurance on those set up sweepers.

    Cool team, good luck!
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,899
    Hello, Cause and Effect..."Gimmick Mastermind"

    I watch you ladder on PO a lot, and I've seen this team at work many a time. I can't say much about it, other than that it's completely amazing and should be taken seriously. This stall team truly is (almost) perfect. I want to make suggestions, but I also don't want to disrupt the beautiful balance of this team, so I'll leave you with merely one idea: how about a BandTar over your current set? I understand the appeal of a Block Ttar, and it's very original, but come on. Your current set is sort of...well, it doesn't seem to do much for your team, to say the least. It just makes your Starmie weakness worse, since that thing can basically dance around Ferrothorn while beating the rest of your team. With good Gengar and Ferrothorn switches, you could wear it down, but having Pursuit on Tar should help immensely. It will also help beat this team's only true weakness, CM Reuniclus. The set is below.

    Tyranitar (open)
    Tyranitar @ Choice Band
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Superpower


    Otherwise, awesome team, C&E. I find myself wishing you had posted the old Tangrowth / Snorlax team, because that was really fun to watch you use, but this is close enough. Luvdisc'd, have a nice day.
  9. C and E

    C and E

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Thanks for the analysis man. You are spot on with Reuniclus being a big problem. In fact if I had to rank the 3 most dangerous sweepers to my team I have previously mentioned, then I would go 1)Reuniclus 2)Keldeo and 3)Volcarona. You mentioned CM Latios. Most Latios run CM, Recover, Dragon Pulse, Filler. Now it all depends on that filler. Usage statistics will generally tell you that HP Fire or Substitute is the desired filler. If thats the case then Latios is completely shut down by Torment Tran. Ive faced many CM Latios before. Torment Tran has no problem stalling it. Reuniclus is a different story. But If I can get Tran in after one CM, the plan is to pp stall focusblast. Wait for a miss or do whatever I have to do wether it be alternate between Gengar and Tyranitar. Once focus blast is out of PP, obviously Tyranitar laughs at it. I know. Why not just run Disable Gengar. I have really given this serious thought, but I really like how Sub/Hypnosis Gar gives me the upperhand against those pesky Xatu/Dugtrio Sun teams.

    Haha, MY FELLOW IMP brethren!! Wassup Lavos. I didnt know you had Smogon account. Yeah about the Band Ttar. I forgot to explain in the RMT that I actually ran band before switching over to the set I am currently running. To be honest I still actually switch back and forth between the two wherever I see fit. Althought the EV spread I was running on the Band Tar was 244HP, 64Attk, 160sp def., and 40spd. I went with a sp. def band Tar to allow him to last longer in rain and also to switch into Specs Lati, but yeah I understand bro. I altenate between Block Tar and Band Tar from time to time.

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