The Smogon "Suspect Test" Ladder is in full effect! "mark 2"

[JabbaTheGriffin]

all stall teams are yachechomp weak, it's an undeniable fact. what was obi's stall team? hippo/spiritomb/skarmory/blissey/celebi/tentacruel? yeah it has a problem with yachechomp. the main problem with relying on tspikes to dwindle garchomp's hp is that garchomp can switch in on almost all tspikers to the tune of a free sd (before the first layer is down). i know this from experience. i mean in the case of switching in on tentacruel, you could always throw out an ice beam but i'm not really sure you'd want to take the risk of it being scarf/cbchomp and losing tenta so early. not to mention he has nothing faster that can revenge kill it (for stall that's generally starmie) so if he misses due to sand veil or his skarmory succumbs to fire fang flinch he's basically losing his entire team.

 

[Syberia]

I recall Obi mentioning somewhere that it was ChainChomp that gave him the most trouble, not YacheChomp.

 

[Jumpman16]

yeah can we stop talking about a team that's at least three metagames removed from the one it was tailored for

 

[Pyong]

The "suspect" metagame is just wonderful to play. Stall works wonders, and your offensive team don't need to fear the speed demon and/or dent garchomp with every single pokémon.
Rhyperios is really viable in this metagame...he counters DDmence, DDttar, Heatran, Jirachi, Raikou and etc, and he don't need to worry about garchomp anymore :D

EDIT: Rhyperior isn't able to counter HP Grass Raikou very well, and there are a lot of then in the ladder, but anyway, he counter the hp ice ones >.>

 

[Angel Diva]

Yea Rhyperior and Regirock are simply amazing to use in sandstorm teams. Who says you need Garchomp for a successful sand team?(I think I repeated this before)

Anyway, for some reason I hardly ever see Blissey when I play. I've also seen plenty of Trick-wielders like Alakazam and Persian leading. I myself run one. It's really funny when Alakazam tricks a scarf onto Aero who decided to use Taunt. Free Focus Sash too!

I've also noted the increased number of Sub-Petaya-Gengars.

 

[Too_Hungry35]

I've noticed that quite a bunch of trick room teams are popping up. Is it because Garchomp and Deoxys-S are absent from the suspect ladder, or are people jsut noticing that Trick Room teams are quite effective?

 

[cim]

I've noticed that quite a bunch of trick room teams are popping up. Is it because Garchomp and Deoxys-S are absent from the suspect ladder, or are people jsut noticing that Trick Room teams are quite effective?

I love how every single metagame trend everyone ever notices must be the direct result of Garchomp or Deoxys being gone. Seriously, every third post is "because there's no chomp pokmeon xyz is used a lot". This makes sense, to an extent, for maybe a third of the Pokémon mentioned. But about 2/3rds of them don't make any sense and is simple "associating correlation with causation".

Here's some specific examples:

Empoleon - To an extent Empoleon is somewhat hindered by Garchomp, yeah. Well, except that it has a STAB Surf and (sorry about that) Ice Beam from more than enough Special Attack to OHKO versions without Yache Berry, so to say Empoleon's increasing with Garchomp gone might just be a coincidence as Garchomp didn't exactly completely shut down Empoleon. Still, a stronger example than most that I've seen on this thread, and Deoxys-S was one of the few revenge killers to Agility Empoleon.

Trick Room - I'm kind of confused as to how either Pokémon ever hindered Trick Room at all. If anything, they were a reason to try Trick Room as they were very fast sweepers. Bronzong, Porygon2, and Dusknoir, three common Trick Roomers, didn't have much of a problem with either. Porygon2 was a good Garchomp counter, and Bronzong / Dusknoir were fantastic answers to Deoxys-S. So, that's simple correlation, probably not causation.

These are just two examples, I'll throw in more later as they come up or as I re-read them.

 

[Syberia]

Empoleon does not have a STAB Ice Beam, and its rising usage is attributable to Blissey's decline, if anything, not Garchomp.

 

[cim]

Empoleon does not have a STAB Ice Beam, and its rising usage is attributable to Blissey's decline, if anything, not Garchomp.

Sorry about the typo. Your second sentence was what I was trying to say above (that Garchomp being gone isn't the cause for everything on the ladder ever), though "standard" (Agility-Substitute) Empoleon can actually beat Blissey if she lacks Seismic Toss or Thunderbolt, which IIRC most sets on the analysis lack.

 

[Too_Hungry35]

I never said because of the absense of Garchomp and Deoxys-E around that Trick Room teams are rising? I'm just wondering why they've become more popular now. I really haven't seen any trick room teams around. And now that the suspect ladder is up, I've been seen a lot lately.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

I love how every single metagame trend everyone ever notices must be the direct result of Garchomp or Deoxys being gone.

Being that the only difference between this metagame and current Standards is the lack of Garchomp and Deoxys, it is a very safe bet that any differences that pop up are due to the only difference between the two environments.

Removing Garchomp and Deoxys does more then removing Garchomp and Deoxys from most teams. It removes the need to handle the different versions of those popular Pokemon from successful teams. It changes the threat list, and thus team make up. Which in the end changes how effective different strategies are.

Just because doing A with B wasn't hindered by C doesn't mean that the increase in usage of B isn't related to the removal of C. Especially if C greatly dictates the make up of the environment around it.

Here's some specific examples:

Empoleon - To an extent Empoleon is somewhat hindered by Garchomp, yeah. Well, except that it has a STAB Surf and (sorry about that) Ice Beam from more than enough Special Attack to OHKO versions without Yache Berry, so to say Empoleon's increasing with Garchomp gone might just be a coincidence as Garchomp didn't exactly completely shut down Empoleon. Still, a stronger example than most that I've seen on this thread, and Deoxys-S was one of the few revenge killers to Agility Empoleon.

Garchomp won't come in on Empoleon, but is very likely to stay in on Empoleon and not be threatened by it. Empoleon doesn't enjoy those STAB EQs, and can't do anything to OHKO Garchomp if it packs a Yache. It also fails to out speed Banded versions prior to an Agility, and I'd also question Empoleons ability to handle a Scarfchomps EQ. Even if it survives, your Empoleon is severly gimped by taking that EQ and is opened up to an easy KO with a priority move or even a wall.

At best Empoleon could come in on a predicted Outrage, but I'm sure that would still smart. Plus the reward for using Empoleon as a CB Outrage sponge isn't very high.

Trick Room - I'm kind of confused as to how either Pokémon ever hindered Trick Room at all. If anything, they were a reason to try Trick Room as they were very fast sweepers. Bronzong, Porygon2, and Dusknoir, three common Trick Roomers, didn't have much of a problem with either. Porygon2 was a good Garchomp counter, and Bronzong / Dusknoir were fantastic answers to Deoxys-S. So, that's simple correlation, probably not causation.

I have a hard time believing that Porygon2 could do anything to a Yache (easily the most popular Garchomp variation) SDchomp. Hell, it would be risky enough for P2 to switch into Garchomp because it wouldn't enjoy anything with a Choice Band attatched. Porygon2 is simply not bulky enough to handle Garchomp, barring some miracle due to tracing Sand Veil.

But again, removing two of the biggest threats in the game drastically alters the environments make up. If these trends have nothing to due with Garchomp and Deoxys then we'd see them just as frequently on the Standard Ladder.

 

[Darkflagrance]

But again, removing two of the biggest threats in the game drastically alters the environments make up. If these trends have nothing to due with Garchomp and Deoxys then we'd see them just as frequently on the Standard Ladder.

In addition to the removal of those two pokemon, there are several other factors that differentiate the Suspect List metagame from the Standard metagame. The players that make up the Suspect List metagame may be different from the ones in Standard play: for example, they may be more experimental and so interact to produce different trends - it may just be that the kind of player more inclined to play Suspect List than Standard also happens to be willing to risk Trick Room.

Also, they may be related to Garchomp/Deoxys, but only indirectly, responding to the changes of move or pokemon frequency among pokemon other than Garchomp or Deoxys resulting from their removal; thus, looking only at Garchomp and Deoxys for direct causes may not be the right approach.

Also, it may also be that those trends are ones that would have happened in the Standard game naturally, except that the creation of the Suspect List somehow accelerated metagame evolution.

 

[phalanx]

i really don't see what effect no garchomp or deoxys-s would do, if anything TR is a good counter to both (well deoxys can use it itself and turn it off).
it is more of people finding thier feet and trying to replace thier old teams

 

[cim]

I have a hard time believing that Porygon2 could do anything to a Yache (easily the most popular Garchomp variation) SDchomp. Hell, it would be risky enough for P2 to switch into Garchomp because it wouldn't enjoy anything with a Choice Band attatched. Porygon2 is simply not bulky enough to handle Garchomp, barring some miracle due to tracing Sand Veil.

Uh... what? Porygon2 is pretty bulky, and while it won't be taking 2 Choice Band Outrages, it's a good answer to Garchomp. First of all, it Traces that highly annoying trait. Second, he's got a potent Ice Beam to always 2HKO Garchomp. I'd say he's not a bad answer to Garchomp, at least as far as viable answers to Chomp go.

But again, removing two of the biggest threats in the game drastically alters the environments make up. If these trends have nothing to due with Garchomp and Deoxys then we'd see them just as frequently on the Standard Ladder.

Not necessarily. You act as if the exact same people have the exact same teams and battles on both ladders. Since a lot of Pokémon are switching around, you can't honestly say that the ONLY difference between the ladders is that Garchomp is gone and thus every change is directly attributable to him...

 

[Venom]

Just for the record, just because Porygon2 is bulky does not mean in any way or form it's a safe bet against a Garchomp, and in there is no possible way Empoleon is a safe bet against Garchomp, I mean STAB Earthquake...

 

[Bourbon]

Not necessarily. You act as if the exact same people have the exact same teams and battles on both ladders. Since a lot of Pokémon are switching around, you can't honestly say that the ONLY difference between the ladders is that Garchomp is gone and thus every change is directly attributable to him...

Yes, all changes in the ladder CAN be attributed to Deoxys-E and Chomp.

It's like those dumb bean plant experiments we had to do. If you put the plant in the dark cupboard, it is deprived of sunlight. It will die. You can't say "there has to be some other reason, you can't blame it all on the sunlight" but you can. All the other variables were there except sun, so obviously the plant died because there was no sun.

The purpose of this example is simple. Since only one variable in the experiment was modified, the changes to the plant afterwards are a direct result of said variable.

In the Suspect Ladder, the only difference between it and the regular ladder is that Garchomp and Deoxys-E are banned. Therefore, since this was the only variable we modified in the experiment, all changes we see are a direct result of Garchomp and Deoxys-E being banned.

 

[Resonate]

The difference between between a bean experiment and a Pokemon metagame is that the meta evolves at a much higher rate and is based on fluid trends. You know what a bean plat will do for the next few hundred years. Its not going to change much besides respond to its conditions in the form of increased or decreased growth.

Honestly, Pokemon meta's behave in a more fluid environment than people realize. If A works, people do B. If B works, people use C. Then it comes to a point where there are many strategies that work. While taking out a metagame component, even such a centralizing force as Deoxys Speed or Garchomp, has an effect on the evolution of the meta, it doesn't remove the standard metagame principles of evolution.

Just because there is change, that doesn't mean change wasn't already on the horizon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Garchomp being bumped to Uber, but I think you need to make the decision in a concrete manner. Saying that all change is attributed to Chomp's removal is a dismissal of the FACT that change is constant in Pokemon. While the amount of change is up to debate and does vary, things never stay completely the same.

Essentially, instead of saying all change is a direct result of the removal of Chomp and Deoxys, look at what has changed and see what could be attributed to them directly. Some times things are not what they appear.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think the biggest impact is that there are no 100% "this is easy" setups in the Suspect Test metagame. While Lucario is scary as hell with a Swords Dance, he's frail and hard to bring in, especially with an unimportant immunity and weakness to EQ. It's not easy to get that Swords Dance with Lucario, and his power isn't terribly overwhelming nor is his speed all that useful without that Swords Dance. Garchomp, however, was incredibly hard to OHKO when holding Yache, thus letting it get an easy Swords Dance in against even the best of opponents. And once it got that Swords Dance, something was going to die. It was that simple. Now that players don't have a 100% thing that works, they're more willing to experiment and see if there are other things that work more often, thus the mass experimentation on the Suspect Test ladder.

 

[kd24]

I finally broke the top 50 on the leaderboard so I think its safe to comment right now. Anyway here are some more facts I have:

Some estimations on leads. Since I have been battling nonstop, I think I have participated in over 200 battles on the suspect test ladder since it started. Since a lot opponents might be ones I already faced, I might not be exactly right so here are some rough estimates for what you are going to be fighting:

Leads:
5/10 (1/2) leads are going to be Azelf
2/10 (1/5) leads are going to be Yanmega
1/10 (1/10) leads are going to be Gengar / Aerodactyl / Bronzong / Tyranitar / Gyarados / Weavile / Heatran (only those 7)

The other 2/10 (1/5) leads could be anything varying from Metagross to Crobat to Ninjask to Infernape. It should be noted that most of the Pokemon I have seen have been used to counter Azelf (which is why Yanmega is probably use second most). Although this is equal to Yanmega in usage and above the big 7 (weavile, gengar, ect.) you have to remember that this includes almost any Pokemon. So each individual Pokemon is used very little.

If this data is correct is something only time will tell once the usage statistics come out. This is solely from my battles.

On the battlefield, things have definitely gotten interesting. Salamence and Gyarados are on 6 or 7/10 teams (seperately) and Heatran is pretty much on 9-10/10 teams. something like 97%. Why such usage? Well, I don't know really. Heatran is really getting so common now that I am using Arcanine and Azumarill on the same team to stop it. I think it is Heatran's versatility because he is so bulky and powerful he can fit onto a fast paced or slow paced offensive team, but still have enough support options (defensive taunttran anyone?) to be put on a defensive team.

Ugh Lucario is getting to be a pain, especially since he is on all of these Heatran teams. Lucario is sweeping teams lategame on stall or offense and I would say he is on 7-8/10 teams (beware, my estimations may be a bit off). I would like to round out the rest of a normal team with Gengar (who is also seeing a lot more usage) as well as Azelf (the suicide lead) or Yanmega (Azelf counter).

If its confusing, here is what I would say the average offensive team would look like:

Azelf
Gyarados / Salamence
Lucario
Heatran
Metagross
Gengar

Now defensive:

Heatran
Tentacruel / Nidoqueen
Blissey
Celebi
Spiritomb / Skarmory / Forretress
Zapdos

Yeah I havent seen enough defensive teams to make the judgement. Heres to the future ;)

What team have I been running nonstop for the last day (actually last few days but I didn't start running nonstop until today?)

This team has been really good on the ladder so far and it kind of surprises me because it was made just for a test and to see what the opponent runs. Oh well, go with what currently works I guess?

Yanmega (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Protect
---
Azumarill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP/204 Atk/16 Def/20 Spd/16 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Encore
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Waterfall
---
Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/96 Def/128 Spd/32 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Dragon Claw
---
Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 72 HP/252 Atk/128 Def/56 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Quick Attack
- X-Scissor
---
Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/164 Def/92 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam
- Reflect
- Thunderbolt
---
Empoleon (M) @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 28 HP/12 Atk/216 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Agility

---

Its funny because this was very inspired by Anti's team from RSE (Azumarill, Dragonite, and Scizor). Really fun team btw and I see why Anti had fun using the original version in rse. It works and it does what it needs to.

ugh long update but prepare for more ;)

edit: shineys a really cool guy and gave me this empoleon that is helping the team a LOT more than arcanine.

 

[Qzahk]

It's hard to determine if the changes were direct results from the banning of Garchomp and Deoxys-s, because the metagame fluctuates anyway. People will start to use different pokemon, in response to other different pokemon, all the time, even when the usable pokemon remain the same.

An exception is Garchomp, who is always useful...but that's not the point.

 

[Uriel778]

I too reached the top 50, but went on a brilliant losing streak lol, I'm bout 30 points out of it now. But I think I could comment on the ladder.

Most of the leads of the teams is either a suicide lead, or to stop one. Like KD said, most leads are azelf. I've seen a lot of all out of offensive, much more than defensive. Also, stealth rock is very important, since a lot of pokes like to run focus sash,(Lucario). Imo the most dangerous pokes in this meta has shifted to gengar, Lucario, and Heatran.

Gengar is just very good once it puts something to sleep, sets up a sub, and then goes on a mini rampage. It's almost to easy to set that up as well. That is just the most dangerous set imo, but it has many and it's unpredictability plays into it strength.

Lucario is a monster in the late game, once it gets a swords dance not much is stopping it except for perhaps a heatran, or a focus sash revenge killer. It is very powerful, but it's frailty really hurts it and finding an oppurtinity to swords dance is hard too.

Heatran has a few sets, but his choice scarf one is the most prevalent, it has both incrdible power and speed. Also with his resistance its not hard to switch him in.

Overall the ladder is very fun, and even though Garchomp/Deoxys is gone, I don't think you can contribute all of the new sets/strategies to them. I think it is more of people wanting to find that new game breaking tactic in place of those two.

I've tried many teams in the ladder, and imo my raindance did best, I don't know if no garchomp/deoxys really mattered, since it focused on outspeeding the opponent. It was a bit too sporadic however, and now I'm looking into more stable teams.

Zeus777

 

[G-Beast]

Empoleon - To an extent Empoleon is somewhat hindered by Garchomp, yeah. Well, except that it has a STAB Surf and (sorry about that) Ice Beam from more than enough Special Attack to OHKO versions without Yache Berry, so to say Empoleon's increasing with Garchomp gone might just be a coincidence as Garchomp didn't exactly completely shut down Empoleon. Still, a stronger example than most that I've seen on this thread, and Deoxys-S was one of the few revenge killers to Agility Empoleon.

i guess the only problem is finding a garchomp not using yache berry.... especially a SDchomp... its kinda scary to imagine needing 592 sp atk to OHKO garchomp with a unSTABed ice beam, cheers to yache berry. thats barely even possible in OU with specs. impossible even in ubers w/o specs

 

[cim]

Okay, it looks like at this point that for me there's no way I'm going to make the cut off. I've been making too many mistakes in my battles methinks; maybe I'm just being careless, maybe I'm a horrible battler, but after a night full of battles I can't get my rating to budge from 1429 at all. It's been sticking at exactly that number forever. I think I'll join the next apprentice round. Anyhow, here are my thoughts on the whole thing:

The "Suspect Free" metagame that was attempted I think is a great success. The lack of sweepers that require extremely dedicated counters allows for a diverse group of Pokémon to be used by battlers. Sure, there are still top level threats like Tyranitar and Salamence, but these Pokémon are easier to handle than Garchomp; I think that they are quite managable unlike Garchomp which at the very least required 2 Ice attacks on a team.

More strategies seemed to be viable in Suspect Test. I personally used a stall team and despite my ladder ranking I believe it was moderately successful. I've seen a wide variety of teams, from all out offense to stall to set-up sweeping and everything in between. I can't honesty tell whether or not this is the result of Garchomp banning or perhaps the community at large is just more willing to experiment, but either way it's a welcome change.

I noticed as a trend that people decided to try out more Ground weak Pokémon in the wake of Garchomp's absence. While I can't say if they are more or less effective now, the increased use of Nidoqueen, Raikou, and Empoleon has been at least somewhat noticeable to me.

In general, this method of testing out the Pokémon metagame seems to be a fantastic one that allows for the battling community to really experience the metagame changes they discuss. I look forward to seeing how the Suspects do (though the only one I personally think has a shot in OU is Deoxys-S).

 

[Zephiel]

If its confusing, here is what I would say the average offensive team would look like:

Azelf
Gyarados / Salamence
Lucario
Heatran
Metagross
Gengar

Heh.

I am having much more fun in the Suspect ladder. Garchomp and Deoxys-S definitely ruined DP for me.

 

[Likeness101]

I haven't really had any problems with Deoxys-S to be honest mostly because of spiritomb/metagross but I must admit Garchomp has always been an issue for most of my teams.