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The Top 10 Titans of the 5th Gen LC Metagame

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by McRider, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. McRider

    McRider

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    Approved by Elevator Music - Credit to the OU one for the OP

    As 6th gen swiftly approaches, I think it’s time that we take a look back on the entire 5th gen LC Metagame. With the transition from 4th gen to 5th gen, we acquired such powerhouses as Mienfoo, Drillbur, new abilities that pushed pokemon over the top or into contention, Permanent Weather, Tirtouga, Scraggy, Larvesta, and more. With the arrival of Black and White 2, many past threats became all the more potent thanks to more readily available tutor attacks and hidden abilities. These Pokemon have all had a great impact over the course of 5th gen LC. But, it is now time to decide, who are the Top 10 Titans of 5th Gen LC?

    This is where you guys come in. This thread will work similarly to the LC Viability Ranking Thread, where throughout the week, you guys will nominate Pokemon to be voted on to be placed as candidates for the Top 10 Titans of 5th Gen LC. The voting for the actual top 10 list will be done in September (one month away from 6th gen) by you all, so that by the time 6th gen does roll around, we have an accurate depiction of which Pokemon were the ones that had a very significant impact on the LC Metagame. Every shift, you will look through the candidates mentioned, and then you will vote on the one that has the most compelling argument on why it should be in the Top 10. The nominating will last until June 1st, 11:59 PM EST, which after that, the voting process will being, with a top ten list determined two weeks later.

    Now, what do I want in a post? Well, what I would like to see in a post nominating a Pokemon is:



    • What kind of effect did this Pokemon have during its time in the 5th Gen LC Metagame?
    • What were its main roles when it was/is used?
    • What caused it to have such a significant impact? (Think Movesets, abilities, base stats, etc)
    • How would you deal with this Pokemon when you are team building/battling it? (checks, counters, etc)
    These are the kinds of posts that show that you aren’t just saying, “Pokemon X should be in the top 10 because it looks cool.” Those kinds of posts should not even be thought about being made.

    Now, for the big question, what kinds of Pokemon can we nominate? Well, really, you can nominate any that were in LC but were banned, any in LC but were moved down, or you can suggest any Pokemon that’s in LC right now. I’m hoping that by the time that September rolls around, we’ll have a significant list to vote for the top 10.

    Now, the voting for the top 10 will NOT be a standard 1. Best Pokemon 2. Second best, etc. The Top 10 will be the ones that have had the most significant impact on their time used in the Metagame. This means even in Black and White 1.

    Here's a list of the current nominees:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Meditite| Carvanha |Murkrow | Misdreavus | Mienfoo | Scraggy | Drilbur | Snover |Hippopotas | Chinchou | Gligar | Vulpix

    Now, what I want you guys to do is to put up compelling arguments on why these 2 should be candidates for the top 10 Titans of 5th Gen LC. But, don’t have all the posts for this week only be for these two, nominate your own selections. Then, on the 16th June, you all will vote on which Pokemon should be the one that is nominated for the Top 10.

    I feel that this topic would be a great idea for us at the moment with 6th gen coming towards us fast and with 5th gen finally winding down on being almost done with the changes in it. So, now it is up to you all. Who do you think impacted the LC metagame the most? Who do you believe is a Titan?
  2. apt-get

    apt-get CONFIRMED CONFIRMED CONFIRMED
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    I didn't play in the Meditite/Carvanha meta so I'm not gonna speak about them.

    [​IMG]
    I feel like Drilbur should be in the top 10, if not in the top 5. This Pokémon is one of the sole reasons that every team out there has either Shroomish or Snover: The terrifying power it has just makes you forced to pick a hard-counter. 19 Attack, along with 34 speed, good bulk, And a terrifying move in Swords Dance makes it capable of sweeping teams, along with the fact he CAN'T BE REVENGE KILLED OUTSIDE OF PRIORITY AND SNOVER. Resistance to Stealth Rock, Great STAB, a quite common immunity and weaknesses easily covered by Lileep makes it the beast it is.
  3. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    [​IMG]

    Although I think it's fallen under the radar a bit now, Scraggy used to be one of the most feared Pokemon around. I think this is clear from the fact it's been a suspect 3 times. If Scraggy didn't exist, there is no way that we would see physically defensive Mienfoo and the reason why he's not so good anymore is because he caused the entire metagame to shift around him. It has a great coverage and with a bit of help weakening Mienfoo/Timburr/Croagunk/Riolu he does an incredible job of sweeping.
  4. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Mienfoo, Mukrow, Misdreavous. Those three M's have owned the top 3 usage for all of 2013, and iirc most of 2012. They are so omnipresent in little cup that every team MUST have an answer to all of them.
  5. McRider

    McRider

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    Thanks everyone for your ideas. I have added all of them. Can you just explain more why they should be nominees because it is needed.
  6. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Whilst I would agree with Murkrow and Misdreavus, I do not agree with Mienfoo. Mienfoo has topped the usage stats for ages, but I just don't feel it's impact is strong enough. Yes, it's a very useful Pokemon but not a massively threatening one. If you come up against a Murkrow or Misdreavus, you often have to think to yourself before the game about how you're going to deal with the big threat but Mienfoo is never a particular worrying Pokemon. Yes, if you don't have a counter to him he could really annoy your team but at the end of the day, without Mienfoo the metagame would be very similar, with possibly Timburr/Riolu/Scraggy being a bit higher up. Murkrow, Misdreavus, Drilbur and Scraggy have all forced the metagame to shift around them, Mienfoo hasn't, he's just been consistently good.
  7. McRider

    McRider

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    You're right, all other Pokemon has a bigger impact on the metagame but Mienfoo is only a nominee. I think it won't be in top 10 anyway.
  8. McRider

    McRider

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    I don't disagree, it is just that Mienfoo doesn't have the same impact as Gligar, Misdreavus, Murkow had on the past so I don't think it will be well-classed if it is in the top 10. I will add Snover, Chinchou and Gligar, thanks.
  9. Nozzle

    Nozzle

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    I want to suggest Hippo since sand is a meta defining playstyle and every team needs a counter for it.
  10. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    I'm sorry, I forgot this was an objective thing. I do think Mienfoo should be a nominee and possibly top ten but I feel it had a lesser impact on the metagame than some of the other nominees. As I said other Pokemon have forced the metagame to shift around them, Mienfoo hasn't.
    Gligar should definitely be on the list imo, when it was around it was quite clearly a dominating Pokemon that forced people to work out ways to counter it that wouldn't have been considered otherwise such as Scarf Shellder.
    I'm not sure Snover and Chinchou are that dominating, they seem to just be by-products of other giant threats like Murkrow and Drilbur. Probably worthy enough to be nominees though.
    As for Hippopotas, I'm really not sure. I think that sand is only that amazing because of Drilbur, but then without Hippopotas, Drilbur wouldn't be amazing so it's difficult to separate them. It can still be a nominee though of course.

    Also, I guess Vulpix should be on list. I didn't play in its meta but seeing as it got banned it must have had quite an impact on the game.
  11. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I sorta agree with corkscrew. mienfoo's popularity is a product of scraggy in the meta before the great unbannings. Same is true for snover and chinchou for, like he said, drilbur and murkrow respectivley. neither are bad mons, but without those threats their influence was minimial. snover was always a strong scarfer but it only became a staple as its the easiest counter to sand.

    I also agree that vulpix should be on that list. You dont really need to have played in its meta to see the impact it has. Look at any grass type with chlorophyl, it is now a viable sweeper. If turning ~12 pokemon into suddenly viable threats isnt an impact then we're going to need a definition of an impact. (we should probably come to a consensus on that anyways)

    Also just as a whole can we avoid making nominations without an explanation? #1 way for threads to die is to discourage discussion.
  12. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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    I'm agreeing with Cork and Delver here. Mienfoo is good? Yes, it is. Mienfoo is versatile? Yes it is. Does he has an impact in the Metagame? Not really. Being the most used pokemon does not qualify as a pokemon with high impact. Murkrow, Misdreavus, Gligar, Hippopotas, etc. define the metagame by the playstyles revolved around them. For instance, Murkrow and Gligar make the metagame revolve around them and its counters, on the other hand Misdreavus, Hippopotas and Vulpix create whole strategies around them because of their intrinsic characteristics. Mienfoo doesn't impact the metagame in this way, it works the other way around, you create a playstyle then see if Mienfoo can fit into it. Now Mienfoo happens to fit many teams and it is very good on its own but it doesn't exactly impact the metagame. Chinchou, I disagree for the same reasons.

    I'm totally agreeing with Scraggy, it forced Fighting-types into the spotlight just because of how threatning it is.

    Snover is not Metagame defining, it's the response to Hippopotas and Drilbur (and Co.) and it didn't change the metagame into a Hail-related one nor into weather wars.

    I can see cork's confusion in this concept but I think they both must be classified as metagame defining. Drilbur has forced the metagame to shift to a "how to counter sand?"-esque meta. But Drilbur is nothing without Hippopotas. Now, Sand (that is to say, Hippopotas) is a force on its own because it boosts usage of many Sand supporters: Lileep, Vullaby, Bronzor...

    And just to be clear, I support VULPIX to be nominated.
  13. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    I almost completely disagree with the statement that Drilbur is nothing without Hippopotas. This is something I was trying to get across in the Viability thread when we were discussing Hippopotas, and while i ultimately conceded there, I think this is a more plausible environment for my thoughts to really take root.

    Anyways, in my opinion its the opposite. Hippo really relies on Drilbur for its usage. Sand has a handful of other abusers, some of the first ones in my head would be Tirtouga, Lileep and Sandshrew, and with the exception of Shrew (who's just a bad drilbur anyways) they all can function equally well outside of sand or running full sand support for just it seems silly or like a waste of a slot. Its because of that reason that I think, as i bolded in your statement, Drilbur's impact on the meta greatly outshines hippos. Drilbur *forced* people to start taking sand teams seriously into consideration or risk being completely sweeped after 1 turn of set up.

    Obviously all (good) sweepers are threatening in a similiar nature, and without hippo drilbur really doesnt have that ability. However, without drilbur, sand is no where near as threatening. So while it is almost impossible to seperate the two entirely, i think in the singular vacuum of "metagame-impact" Drilbur takes the trophy without competition. In otherwords, people started using hippopotas with drilbur *because* of drilburs potential impact on the meta game. Without that, hippo (and by extension sand strats in general) would be much less potent in the meta.





    ------------
    Edit

    These are the list of non-nominated mons i think should be nominated.
    Vulpix
    Gligar
    I thought there'd be more.
  14. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I'd like to throw Gligar up as nominee. Obviously it is currently banned, but while it was legal, it was very influential. With an unmatched variety of sets that are all threatening in their own right, Gligar has had a huge effect on the 5th gen metagame. It was so good that when it was unbanned with Krow and Missy that it was sent right back packing to LC ubers. It could run sweeper sets, support sets, defensive sets, and lead sets. Gliger definitely deserves to be a titan.
  15. McRider

    McRider

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    Sorry for being late, I was really busy yesterday.

    So, I have added all your suggestions, thanks everybody. I have hesitated to add Chinchou and Snover because they aren't THAT dominating. Snover is mostly used to check Sand(mostly Drilbur) while Chinchou is mostly used to check Murkrow. Both of them are great mons but they wouldn't be as great without Drilbur and Murkrow, respectively but I think they deserve to be nominees because they are great. As for Hippo, I have added mostly because we need nominees and because it supports Drilbur and Lileep(and Sandshrew) despite it is mostly use because of Drilbur and not the contrary.

    Gligar obviously deserves to be a nominee, it was too great and too dominating when it was in LC, the two times.

    Vulpix was also too dominating because of the number of grass-types with chlorophyl(Bellsprout, Oddish, Deerling etc..) and was a reason of Tangela's ban. I have even hesitated to add it to nominees since the begining because it had a big impact on the metagame.

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