The use of "inaccurate" moves

[twash]

Heatran used Fire Blast!
Heatran's attack missed!

I am sure many of you are familiar with this situation. I know I have been "lucky" many times before where the opponent's Fire Blast or Stone Edge has missed, often changing the game completely and putting me firmly back in contention.

Now, it's not like these "inaccurate" moves are uncommon. According to X-Act's statistics, there was a 5.92% chance Fire Blast could be found on a "typical" moveset of a Pokemon. Oppositely, Flamethrower sat at 5.69%. Stone Edge was at 10.52%, compared to the much lower Rock Slide (0.68%). Admittedly, Rock Slide still has only 90% accuracy.

I'm not saying this is always the case. Surf was much, much more popular than Hydro Pump (9.61% in comparison to 1.82%). But it sometimes doesn't make sense to me that people feel the need to use Fire Blast over Flamethrower on their Heatran, especially when you commonly see Heatran being used as an answer to Scizor. If Heatran is cleaning up late-game, do I want to take the risk of a Fire Blast missing Scizor I want to kill, and potentially costing me a Pokemon which is often so vital for my team late-game, and potentially allowing the opponent back into the game? No, not really.

I fully understand the need for certain moves on specific Pokemon. Take Focus Blast on Life Orb Gengar. Gengar pretty much has an ultimatum: use Focus Blast on its moveset, or faint to Choice Band Tyranitar's Pursuit every time, as opposed to the 30% chance of it fainting if Focus Blast misses (unless you want to be even more risky and use Hypnosis). It's not like Gengar has an alternative which is as useful - Hidden Power Fighting is much weaker and lowers Gengar's Speed IV (and fails to OHKO the same 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar). But when people are using inaccurate moves as a "surefire" way to deal with specific threats, surely they could opt for a weaker option if it does the same damage to the Pokemon you are mainly damaging?

59.4% of people ran Fire Blast on their Heatran in July, only 28% used Flamethrower. Personally, I don't want to take the risk of Fire Blast missing in an important situation (which Heatran is often in!). Take into account that Heatran can often "clean up" late game, and the accuracy problem looks even more annoying as a single miss can put you in a poor situation. But then, Flamethrower might be too weak to pull of that sweep, I'm not denying that.

I'm not saying "let's all use Flamethrower, Surf, Rock Slide", and so on. Arguably Fire Blast is much better, and it obviously gets extra KOes on weakened threats that Flamethrower simply cannot get. But I just don't like the use of inaccurate moves when I need them to hit.

It's arguably even worse early / mid game. Everybody knows that keeping the pace of the game to your team's liking is important. If you miss, the momentum may switch to the opponent, meaning that not only do you not do damage, you may also get hit and lose the aforementioned valuable momentum. If you predict perfectly, but the attack misses, the opponent can gain momentum, as well as information on your play style, while you gain absolutely nothing, and possibly wish you had the more-accurate move to get "some" damage on the opponent.

Again, the additional power is obviously the selling point, and gets many more KOes against little things you may not have considered when building your team. But in the long run will it work out? Sometimes you hear people say "Hydro Pump essentially has 96 base power (120*0.8), and therefore it is better than Surf". I still hate that example, and it doesn't take into account that Surf will always hit when it is most important, whereas Hydro Pump is risky. Arguably sometimes it doesn't matter, sometimes Hydro Pump misses don't make a huge impact on the game (Starmie hitting full HP Blissey, for example).

What about moves like Sleep Powder? Is lead Roserade really reliable against those slower Pokemon that it can sleep when it is relying on a 75% accurate move?

Anyway, I question the use of moves like Fire Blast when there are lesser alternatives that are 100% accurate that hit the major threats still. Why do people like relying on such moves when vital Pokemon (like Heatran), tend to end up in important situations? Do you take the risk for the extra power, and do you find it pays off, or do you use the less powerful yet more accurate option? Sometimes I cannot help feel people use the more powerful moves just because of the bigger number, not fully thinking about what the Pokemon is doing. Just some opinions would be nice. :)

/edit: Just to say, the net damage view of looking at inaccurate yet powerful moves kind of sucks. Firstly, it doesn't take into account when the misses happen. I could hit all game and miss when it's most important. The average damage might still be higher, but I will have failed to KO what I need to KO. On top of this, sometimes the extra damage is irrelevant, like in a Heatran vs Scizor / Heatran vs Blissey situation. It beats Scizor with the weaker move still..and loses to Blissey with the stronger move still. What matters is the situations you want / expect that Pokemon to be in.

I can't wait for KG's reply...

 

[Jess Mii]

I do agree with you, its not that stronger moves are better in the long run, because they could haunt you when you most need them.

 

[SlottedPig]

In my opinion, I would use Fire Blast on a Heatran and Surf on a Swampert because Heatran's Special Attack is considerably higher than average. When you use Fire Blast on a pokemon with high Special Attack, the damage potentail is much higher, than, say, Flamethrower, whereas Surf is typically used on Bulky Waters, whom do not invest in SpA (or much).

For example, say I run Starmie on two teams. On my Bulky Offense team, he provides Rapid Spin support with Surf and Thunderbolt for coverage and Recover.

~Surf
~Rapid Spin
~Thunderbolt
~Recover
Timid Nature
EVs: 136 HP / 156 Def / 216 Spe
Item:Leftovers

On my Suicide offense team, he is a Choice Scarfer dedicated to destroying Salamence and Gyarados after a DD while giving me some line of defense against Scizor with Hydro Pump (2HKOs), Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Trick.

~Hydro Pump
~Thunderbolt
~Ice Beam
~Trick
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Item: Choice Scarf

Noticably, the Choice Scarfer has more SpA. It is the highest possible un-item boosted SpA, sitting at a nice 328. Hydro Pump would do much more damage than on the first Starmie, who's SpA is a mere 236. The Choice Scarfer needs so much power because without any item to boost it, it OHKOs much less things. Importantly, Hydro Pump OHKOs Electivire and Jolteon who nearly always stay in, expecting an easy OHKO with their Thunderbolts.

 

[Havak]

I believe the reason most players opt for Fire Blast on the likes of Heatran (Scarf mainly, but also other sets) is for the switch-ins that will possibly counter your Heatran (I'm just using Heatran as the example here).

Scizor switches out, and in comes Salamence:

Flamethrower: 28.10% - 33.53%
Fire Blast: 35.65% - 41.99%

With Stealth Rock, you have a good chance of 2HKOing 0/0 neutral Salamence if you opt for Fire Blast. If you lacked a priority move and opted for Flamethrower, there's a good chance that Salamence will just come in, Dragon Dance, and beat the rest of your team. It's just that dangerous.

This is less true for the likes of a Gyarados switch-in, but I'm sure there will be more scenario's where the extra power is more than worth considering.

However, I hate it when my moves miss and using Flamethrower over Fire Blast is almost always an easy decision for me. I always use Flamethrower on Heatran and bascailly always use Surf over Hydro Pump on everything if possible.

 

[Stellar]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Earlier, I was planning a UU team and needed a lead that could survive Yanmega Bug Buzz, kill it, and possibly set up Stealth Rock. I finally settled on Steelix. However, to my dismay, Rock Slide never OHKOed Yanmega.

226 Atk vs 208 Def & 313 HP (75 Base Power): 236 - 280 (75.40% - 89.46%)

Whereas, Stone Edge did:

226 Atk vs 208 Def & 313 HP (100 Base Power): 316 - 372 (100.96% - 118.85%)

I knew I had to OHKO or risk being 2HKOed by Specs Tinted Lens Bug Buzz.

546 Atk vs 232 Def & 353 HP (80 Base Power): 204 - 240 (57.79% - 67.99%)

It seemed good in theory, but as soon as I started battling, everything fell apart.

I replaced the names to prevent leaking any teams.

Opponent sent out Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ♂).
Stellar sent out Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ♂).
Yanmega used Bug Buzz.
It's not very effective...
Steelix lost 67% of its health.
Steelix used Stone Edge.
Steelix's attack missed!

Opponent sent out Yanmega (lvl 100 Yanmega ♀).
Stellar sent out Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ♂).
Steelix used Stone Edge.
Steelix's attack missed!
Yanmega used Whirlwind.
Stellar switched in Venusaur (lvl 100 Venusaur ♂).
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!

In these examples, it was necessary to use the higher base power move with lower accuracy. But, in the end, it didn't even work out. I only ended up hitting ONE Yanmega with Stone Edge, which in turn survived with its Focus Sash and critted me with Hidden Power Ground.

So at least for the moment, I'm leaning heavily towards using the less powerful, more accurate alternatives.

 

[Rayne Sylvan]

The thing is, statistically the less accurate, more powerful moves are slightly better over time. Each hit does more damage, and, even if you factor in the potential to miss, the average damage is still higher.

Yes, a miss can turn the momentum of a match, and yes, it can be game breaking, but over time the Fire Blasts are better for you than the Flamethrowers.

You will win more games because they did their job than you will lose because they did not. You just notice the misses more.

 

[twash]

The thing is, statistically the less accurate, more powerful moves are slightly better over time. Each hit does more damage, and, even if you factor in the potential to miss, the average damage is still higher.

Yes, a miss can turn the momentum of a match, and yes, it can be game breaking, but over time the Fire Blasts are better for you than the Flamethrowers.

You will win more games because they did their job than you will lose because they did not. You just notice the misses more.

But the statistics don't take into account when the misses happen. Sometimes misses happen when it matters, sometimes when it doesn't matter so much. I want to hit what I need to hit. If I miss those threats, it's often much more important than missing on something that beats me anyway. I know the 100% accurate moves will always hit, and I will always have the fear that the less accurate moves won't when I need them to. If it misses at the perfect time, I could lose the match. The average damage the move done might still be higher over the match, but it might have missed when I need it to specifically hit, which is arguably more important.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

This is a discussion of preference really. With Heatran, Flamethrower may be the more reliable move down the stretch, but you also have to consider how much stronger Fire Blast is. The standard +Spe Scarf Heatran will never be able to 2HKO Salamence on the switch with Flamethrower after Stealth Rock. Even with a neutral nature for SpD, Salamence will likely be 2HKO'd by Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast. Since a player normally wouldn't switch Heatran into a dangerous situation where a Fire Blast miss would result in Heatran being knocked out, it's more about dealing a lot of damage on the switch. Imagine how much less potent Salamence would be if everyone opted to use Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor on MixMence.

 

[Aprovleptos]

Although I generally prefer accuracy over power there are sometimes that inaccurate but powerful attacks are more usefull.Take DD Mence for example.It needs Fire Blast to OHKO Skarm with some SpA EVs.Flamethrower only 2HKO Skarm with the same EVs.

 

[Raikaria]

This is a discussion of preference really. With Heatran, Flamethrower may be the more reliable move down the stretch, but you also have to consider how much stronger Fire Blast is. The standard +Spe Scarf Heatran will never be able to 2HKO Salamence on the switch with Flamethrower after Stealth Rock. Even with a neutral nature for SpD, Salamence will likely be 2HKO'd by Scarf Heatran's Fire Blast. Since a player normally wouldn't switch Heatran into a dangerous situation where a Fire Blast miss would result in Heatran being knocked out, it's more about dealing a lot of damage on the switch. Imagine how much less potent Salamence would be if everyone opted to use Dragon Pulse over Draco Meteor on MixMence.

Slight difference in the situation there. Flamethrower is Base 95, while Dragon Pulse is Base 80. Fire Blast is Base 120, 25 higher, while DM is Base 140, 60 whole points higher, for only a 10% difference in accuracy, compared to 15% for Flamethrower/Fire Blast. In that situation, it is obvious that Draco Meteor is the better choice, because, with Pulse, when you hit, you just won't do the damage. The Flamethrower and Fire Blast thing is, over time, only marginal. I prefer the reliabilty, myself.

 

[capefeather]

It's not really a black and white issue. If you NEED the KO, you might just look at the chances of a KO, and if one has an 85% chance of a KO while the other has a 20% chance due to variable damage, then the former move will be better. However, it might be more important to have consistently worn-down opponents, in which case the latter move would be better. It depends on the team, really. Though that's pretty much what others have said...

 

[WarriorPrince]

Slight difference in the situation there. Flamethrower is Base 95, while Dragon Pulse is Base 80. Fire Blast is Base 120, 25 higher, while DM is Base 140, 60 whole points higher, for only a 10% difference in accuracy, compared to 15% for Flamethrower/Fire Blast. In that situation, it is obvious that Draco Meteor is the better choice, because, with Pulse, when you hit, you just won't do the damage. The Flamethrower and Fire Blast thing is, over time, only marginal. I prefer the reliabilty, myself.

Dragon Pulse is 90.

Yeah, Draco Meteor > Dragon Pulse in that situation by a long shot.

People use inaccurate moves because of more power. I usually prefer more powerful attacks. It depends on ur style of play. Damage output is very important on an offensive team. Actually damage output is important on any team. These moves are still fairly reliable, but it is good to have 100% reliability.

Usually the benefits of using the moves outweigh the risk.

 

[Legacy Raider]

In my opinion, the more accurate alternative is almost always preferable unless you need a specific KO which the more powerful less accurate move gets. The 100% accurate move will win you more games over time because of its consistency - the luck factor is reduced and who wins the battle comes down more to the decisions you make rather than what number the RNG throws at you. There are a couple of scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head, though, in which the more powerful move is generally the better choice:-

• +Spe Scarf Heatran's Flamethrower / Fire Blast against opposing Salamence has already been cited, in which Fire Blast has a very high chance of 2HKOing a Salamence switch in after SR, whereas Flamethrower has none. There are other cases in which Fire Blast is better than Flamethrower as well, such as against the standard 252 HP Celebi, who will always die to a Fire Blast hit but takes 77.23 - 91.09% from Flamethrower.

• Tyranitar is almost always seen using Stone Edge as its Rock STAB attack of choice in place of Rock Slide. The reason? Well with Tyranitar, you already have a reliable and powerful STAB move in Crunch, which is both stronger and more accurate than Rock Slide, so it reduces the need for quite so accurate a Rock attack - when you need to hit with an attack, such as against a paralyzed Gyarados or Salamence, you can just use Crunch. Stone Edge also deters several Pokemon from switching in on Tyranitar as leisurely as they would if it ran Rock Slide, most notably Scizor, who takes 79.65 - 94.19% from Stone Edge (nearly 50% chance to OHKO after SR) and only 60.17 - 70.93% from Rock Slide. Stone Edge's extra power boost also lets Tyranitar dispose of Skarmory as well if it is EVed to outspeed it -- Skarmory takes 49.70 - 58.68% from Stone Edge, but only 37.72 - 44.31% from Rock Slide.

• LO Starmie often runs Hydro Pump in place of Surf, even though as twash_man has pointed out Surf is the more reliable and generally more popular attack. The reason Starmie risks missing with its STAB attack is similar to the reason almost all Gengar run Focus Blast. Starmie faces certain death if it gets hit with a STAB (or Technician) Pursuit from Tyranitar or Scizor. Surf does 58.72 - 69.19% to a 248 HP Scizor, meaning Scizor can quite easily come in on a predicted Ice Beam or Thunderbolt, or indeed after a teammate has fainted, and take Starmie out of the game with Pursuit. With Hydro Pump, however, Scizor will be taking 74.13 - 87.50% damage, meaning that if it comes in on either of Ice Beam or Thunderbolt after SR, the following Hydro Pump would be guaranteed to take it out (if it hits). In this way, Starmie has an 80% survival chance against Scizor by using Hydro Pump, whereas it would only survive otherwise if got a critical hit with Surf.

 

[Snorlaxe]

I think that it depends on the pokemon you're using and the role that you are using it for. For instance, Fire Blast is much more popular than Flamethrower on Azelf leads, because their purpose is to die early in the game. However, Flamethrower has superior usage on the late-game Nasty Plot sweeper, as you WOULDNT want Azelf to die then. It really just depends.

 

[tripe]

To me, this argument is simple, more often than not, I choose the more powerful alternative, as opposed to the more accurate, because of the significant kos that the extra power grants, especially in a metagame like Ubers, where every move is crucial. In short, I rather have an 85% from a fire blast of a ko than 0 from flamethrower.

 

[Snorlaxe]

To me, this argument is simple, more often than not, I choose the more powerful alternative, as opposed to the more accurate, because of the significant kos that the extra power grants, especially in a metagame like Ubers, where every move is crucial. In short, I rather have an 85% from a fire blast of a ko than 0 from flamethrower.

Ubers is an entirely different story than OU, where the extra power will be the deciding factor in the match every single time. Hence Thunder's ridiculous popularity (and 30% paralysis rate dont hurt).

 

[McGrrr]

So at least for the moment, I'm leaning heavily towards using the less powerful, more accurate alternatives.

Ignore short term variance; luck is a non factor in the long run. Battle enough times and stone edge pays off.

---

There is only one real debate here; fire blast vs flamethrower. The choice in other instances is almost invariably trivial.

Fire blast: 8 PP/102 EP (expected power = base * accuracy)
Flamethrower: 24 PP/95 EP

The detail that sets FB vs FT apart (from other comparisons) is that the inaccurate attack has a higher EP; but the difference is not significant enough to demand its usage.

Preference should be determined by 2 main factors:

1) Staying power of the Pokemon

Obviously flamethrower would be increasingly attractive the longer a Pokemon is likely to survive; thereby bringing PP into the equation.

2) Your battling edge

If your battling edge relies upon prediction, FB is the superior option. It maximizes your edge by offering a greater expected payoff every time that you are right. However, if your battling edge comes predominantly from solid team building, then flamethrower is the more prudent choice.

 

[tripe]

Ubers is an entirely different story than OU, where the extra power will be the deciding factor in the match every single time. Hence Thunder's ridiculous popularity (and 30% paralysis rate dont hurt).

Actually, thunder's popularity stems from the fact that Kyogre's popularity makes thunder 100% accurate, thus eliminating the accuracy problems and getting rid of the need for thunderbolt. A case where the accurate move is preferred over the powerful one is ice beam over blizzard, even in ubers and dragon overshadows ice very often in ubers. A more pokemon individual case is actually the use of dragon pulse over it's more powerful counterpart draco meteor is soul dew Latias, because she doesn't like the -2 SpA drop that draco meteor does as a side effect.

 

[Snorlaxe]

Actually, thunder's popularity stems from the fact that Kyogre's popularity makes thunder 100% accurate, thus eliminating the accuracy problems and getting rid of the need for thunderbolt. A case where the accurate move is preferred over the powerful one is ice beam over blizzard, even in ubers and dragon overshadows ice very often in ubers. A more pokemon individual case is actually the use of dragon pulse over it's more powerful counterpart draco meteor is soul dew Latias, because she doesn't like the -2 SpA drop that draco meteor does as a side effect.

Yeah, it just depends on the situation I guess =/

 

[rkatzam]

Wow, just today I had an argument with someone about Fire Blast vs Flamethrower.

I started using Flamethrower on my Heatran after I missed one time with Fire Blast against a Scizor when it OHKO'd with Superpower. From this point I started thinking if it's really worth it.. and it doesn't. 2 successive hits with Fire Blast have a lesser chance of happening, and if you're planning to "sweep" with it, the chances are getting slimmer. Not to mention Pressure is not uncommon.

 

[McGrrr]

Actually, thunder's popularity stems from the fact that Kyogre's popularity makes thunder 100% accurate, thus eliminating the accuracy problems and getting rid of the need for thunderbolt.

Thunder has its merits without rain support. That 30% paralysis rate and good PP (for a 120 base attack) are reasons enough to consider it. I ran thunder on lots of things back in GSC e.g. surf/thunder/sleep talk/rest Lanturn. Admittedly, it is not so useful within the advanced environment because the new EV system means that few things can afford a 30% miss.

On the other hand, blizzard should never be considered over ice beam in the absence of hail support. Its expected power is 84 (like thunder), but only has a 10% freeze rate and 8 PP.

 

[tripe]

Thunder has its merits without rain support. That 30% paralysis rate and good PP (for a 120 base attack) are reasons enough to consider it. I ran thunder on lots of things back in GSC e.g. surf/thunder/sleep talk/rest Lanturn. Admittedly, it is not so useful within the advanced environment because the new EV system means that few things can afford a 30% miss.

On the other hand, blizzard should never be considered over ice beam in the absence of hail support. Its expected power is 84 (like thunder), but only has a 10% freeze rate and 8 PP.

I would never consider using thunder w/o rain support, due to it's rather low accuracy, and remember that 30% paralysis may seem like a huge percentage of the time, when it's not.

 

[Riverside]

I was using FB in my Life orb flareon because I give him enough EVs to OHKO Gengar with it because after seeing the power of Frustration/Superpower people tend to send their ghost, and Gengar it's the most common one. Flamethrower can't do that unless I invest 252+nature.

Basically use less-acurate but powerful moves if you have invest enough EVs to do that and can't afford more EVs in that stat (Like FB mixed infernape), otherwise don't do that and go for the most accurate option.

About Thunder I was using it in a slightly different scenario. I used it in my Luxray. T-bolt wasn't enough powerful for the Evs in spc atk I gave him (another mixed pokemon) so I had to use Thunder... I ended leaving luxray because thunder's accuracy it's so low and T-bolt never worked for me.

 

[MtNiesen]

In my personal opinion the move choice all depends what your goal is, to sweep or get spesicific kills, go low acc. high power, but for reliable STABs use lower powered more accurate moves. (Anyway, I perfer using overheat on my heatran, it often gets scared away quickly)

 

[Riley.]

I think it depends entirely on the team and users play style. Personally, on my heatran i run flamethrower - purely because a miss on scizor would really hurt my team.