I think CB ninjask would be kinda cool, just spam u-turn and scout stuff out, bring in magneton if they go to skarm etc. It's also a solid check to any celebi as with an adamant nature, uturn ohkos even max defense variants. Also does over 70% to tyranitar so might force it to run more speed so it isn't outsped at +2 (jolly ninjask will always outspeed +2 adamant tyranitar though). It still lacks power though, and doesn't really learn any powerful moves to make up for it, also once people realize that skarmory can't counter ninjask then it loses a lot of its effectiveness. Still a momentum grabber that can throw out a decently powerful uturn isn't bad. Not sure if "not bad" is good enough for people to use it though. Also I feel like leech seed celebi could make decent use of it on double trap teams, similar to baton pass for trapping skarms and stuff, except now if opposing celebi try and switch in to absorb leech seeds, or even more importantly if tyranitar tries to come in, they get put in to dugtrio range.
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All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV
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I mean I think the biggest impact is that now Swampert and Suicune are taking way more chip damage than they otherwise would when dealing with Flygon, Jirachi, and probably Crobat and Dodrio. This can make sweeping with Ttar happen much earlier in the game and shifts the balance of battles to happen quicker than they normally do right now. Spikes becomes the metagame even more so than it currently is, as whoever gets the most Spikes down and can wear down their opps bulky Waters wins the game quicker. This would increase the prevalence of Skarm/Forre/Cloy to a much higher degree tbh. This also gives Celebi a great tool to combine with both Magneton and Dugtrio, giving offense even more of an edge vs stallier builds.
EDIT: Also Zapdos now has a tool to fuck with Blissey and company more than BP ever did, since that chip damage is going to build up over time.
I think U-turn would ultimately just shift ADV into being offense-centric, and lose its current balance of mostly bulky offense/bulky stall teams.
As for NU, Raticate does indeed become a menace as it can now effectively chip away at Mawile/Relicanth and get Diglett or other mons they hate dealing with in quite easily. Golbat and Pidgeot also become more effective, though not at the same power level as Raticate.
EDIT: Also Zapdos now has a tool to fuck with Blissey and company more than BP ever did, since that chip damage is going to build up over time.
I think U-turn would ultimately just shift ADV into being offense-centric, and lose its current balance of mostly bulky offense/bulky stall teams.
As for NU, Raticate does indeed become a menace as it can now effectively chip away at Mawile/Relicanth and get Diglett or other mons they hate dealing with in quite easily. Golbat and Pidgeot also become more effective, though not at the same power level as Raticate.
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What Oglemi said p much exactly lol: now people have a way to easily chip down more passive teams, leading to earlier sweeps and a more offense-centric meta which honestly i don't feel would be ideal but would be a cool alteration regardless. The extra damage on pert from flygon REALLY helps and celebi will kinda get bopped as it might've been able to switch in on zapper or something but uturn + duggy wrecks it :/
Sounds about right. Heres the next one. What if the Physical/Special split never happened in DPP?
This change is probably considered one of the biggest differences between adv and dpp. But what if the physical/special split never happened? That would drastically change movesets and weaknesses. So will this make new threats appear while old threats fade away? You tell me!
This change is probably considered one of the biggest differences between adv and dpp. But what if the physical/special split never happened? That would drastically change movesets and weaknesses. So will this make new threats appear while old threats fade away? You tell me!
A LOT of things to consider here. I'll take them one at a time.
Gengar probably never makes it big as it just lost its STAB. Starmie just got WAY more effective as now ScarfTar needs to be Special to Pursuit it while Weavile and Scizor shouldn't even bother (as a side note Weavile would cease to exist), while its own moveset remains untouched.
DNite would still be dangerous as all hell because Mixed still exists (though DD and CB sets would be nerfed a bit cause no Outrage). Breloom and Infernape would still stay good: Breloom doesn't have Seed Bomb anymore which could hurt but STAB Focus Punch is still an almighty tool to pressure opponents with (while you could also run Stone Edge on more sets to handle checks). Nape would go fully Mixed, CB would exist but be a lot more niche, but overall effectiveness stays. Gyarados loses its main STAB and as a consequence sucks a lot more.
Kinda all that's on my mind ATM
Gengar probably never makes it big as it just lost its STAB. Starmie just got WAY more effective as now ScarfTar needs to be Special to Pursuit it while Weavile and Scizor shouldn't even bother (as a side note Weavile would cease to exist), while its own moveset remains untouched.
DNite would still be dangerous as all hell because Mixed still exists (though DD and CB sets would be nerfed a bit cause no Outrage). Breloom and Infernape would still stay good: Breloom doesn't have Seed Bomb anymore which could hurt but STAB Focus Punch is still an almighty tool to pressure opponents with (while you could also run Stone Edge on more sets to handle checks). Nape would go fully Mixed, CB would exist but be a lot more niche, but overall effectiveness stays. Gyarados loses its main STAB and as a consequence sucks a lot more.
Kinda all that's on my mind ATM
Gengar gets usable Ice Punch and Fire Punch back and can abuse them better with Life Orb. It takes a huge hit in losing STAB but it'll probably still be viable.
Garchomp and Salamence probably wouldn't be broken since they can't use Dragon STAB as effectively, making them easier to handle since they can't Outrage everything to death (well Mence can, but not as well).
Shit that lost Hidden Power gets it back. Breloom could now run HP Bug to fuck up Celebi for instance.
Forretress can't use Payback anymore because its Special Attack is ass, so it's back to using HP Ghost. It loses the ability to OHKO Gengar and now needs Rocks to 2HKO Rotom-A.
Togekiss becomes unviable because it hits way less hard on its main STAB, loses Aura Sphere coverage, and has no way of increasing its physical damage output outside of Band. You can just PP stall it with a Skamory or something.
In Ubers the Latis can now do CM Outrage for fun times.
Garchomp and Salamence probably wouldn't be broken since they can't use Dragon STAB as effectively, making them easier to handle since they can't Outrage everything to death (well Mence can, but not as well).
Shit that lost Hidden Power gets it back. Breloom could now run HP Bug to fuck up Celebi for instance.
Forretress can't use Payback anymore because its Special Attack is ass, so it's back to using HP Ghost. It loses the ability to OHKO Gengar and now needs Rocks to 2HKO Rotom-A.
Togekiss becomes unviable because it hits way less hard on its main STAB, loses Aura Sphere coverage, and has no way of increasing its physical damage output outside of Band. You can just PP stall it with a Skamory or something.
In Ubers the Latis can now do CM Outrage for fun times.
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Garchomp still would have been a menace. Earthquake would have been the crux of its sets and everything else would cover what it misses, like before. Don't forget Chain Chomp. 80 SpA and LO does a lot with Fire Blast and Draco Meteor. All hiding behind that Sand Veil. Just easier to check, but not neutered by a long shot.
Salamence would have focused less on Dragon Dance and more on the two main mixed sets. Choice Specs wouldn't have died out as well (110 Base SpA and a Specs boosted 140 Dragon move, good grief). Remember that a decent amount of top players held to the mixed sets and their unpredictability to being the broken aspect of it (not just DD).
Those two Dragons would have been fine. The others in OU, in addition to Gyarados, not so much. Dragon Dance in general would have suffered. It works in ADV, but it's less costly to waste a turn and lose momentum on a bad boost.
Tyranitar still has Stone Edge and Earthquake, but physical Pursuit being gone is huge. Yeah, he has a decent Special Attack, but you'd have to split EVs to use it. He doesn't suck obviously, still had the Sandstorm. Psychic types rise up. Starmie makes like a bandit because of it. So does Alakazam, which gets the elemental punches back replace Focus Blast. Gengar loses a lot with its STAB gone though.
It would be ADV with Stealth Rock and U-turn for the most part. In DP, a lot of moves were lost, but were still replaced by alternatives. Going back would surely make a less offensive metagame.
Salamence would have focused less on Dragon Dance and more on the two main mixed sets. Choice Specs wouldn't have died out as well (110 Base SpA and a Specs boosted 140 Dragon move, good grief). Remember that a decent amount of top players held to the mixed sets and their unpredictability to being the broken aspect of it (not just DD).
Those two Dragons would have been fine. The others in OU, in addition to Gyarados, not so much. Dragon Dance in general would have suffered. It works in ADV, but it's less costly to waste a turn and lose momentum on a bad boost.
Tyranitar still has Stone Edge and Earthquake, but physical Pursuit being gone is huge. Yeah, he has a decent Special Attack, but you'd have to split EVs to use it. He doesn't suck obviously, still had the Sandstorm. Psychic types rise up. Starmie makes like a bandit because of it. So does Alakazam, which gets the elemental punches back replace Focus Blast. Gengar loses a lot with its STAB gone though.
It would be ADV with Stealth Rock and U-turn for the most part. In DP, a lot of moves were lost, but were still replaced by alternatives. Going back would surely make a less offensive metagame.
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Choice Specs and Life Orb are absolutely huge and a large part of the whole power creep thing; for example, MixNape still remains a fucking beast although BandNape suffers from the lack of a Fire STAB now. This meta owuld be quite different from ADV tbh because there's a ton of power creep, although I think this meta might be a bit less offensive than current DPP due to the dialing down of certain offensive mons (such as previously mentioned flareblitz nape).
Dusknoir actually looks considerably less suckish without the physical/special split as it now is the sole holder of viable Ghost STAB, and no doubt the metagame would shift dramatically enough to where its current subpar bulk would pass as usable backed by Will-O-Wisp. Its SubPunch set looks enticing. Rotom-A still has it beat out as the main Ghost though, since it doesn't exactly need Shadow Ball to work. Gengar just becomes slightly worse, but Life Orb would help keep it relevant like it was in ADV.
Most of the main contenders in the tier remain mostly unaffected though. Starmie, Heatran, Jirachi, and Zapdos barely even change with the split. Tyranitar loses Crunch and Pursuit, which is huge, but it doesn't need them to remain effective in the tier. The biggest losers are Gyarados, Kingdra, Roserade, and Mamoswine/Weavile. They lose a significant portion of what makes them effective, and while Rose and Kingdra would still be usable they'd be very much less effective without Sludge Bomb for the former and Outrage/Waterfall for the latter. Tentacruel also becomes less effective without Sludge Bomb available too.
Most of the main contenders in the tier remain mostly unaffected though. Starmie, Heatran, Jirachi, and Zapdos barely even change with the split. Tyranitar loses Crunch and Pursuit, which is huge, but it doesn't need them to remain effective in the tier. The biggest losers are Gyarados, Kingdra, Roserade, and Mamoswine/Weavile. They lose a significant portion of what makes them effective, and while Rose and Kingdra would still be usable they'd be very much less effective without Sludge Bomb for the former and Outrage/Waterfall for the latter. Tentacruel also becomes less effective without Sludge Bomb available too.
Specs and LO do little to dent the SkarmBliss core, which are capable of completely stopping most Dragons (such as Garchomp and Salamence). However, Tyranitar offers competition as a special wall due to the Sandstorm buff and lack of special Focus Blast.
Scizor can kick ass by running a physical Technician-boosted Hidden Power - Ground makes Heatran think twice about coming in, Rock allows it to pummel birds and such (not that it's needed due to dem sneaky pebbles) and Ghost can hit ghosts it had to use Pursuit for (which it will miss sorely).
Some special Fire-Types can drop Fire Blast for the more reliable Flare Blitz.
DragMag teams no longer have physical Outrage, so they need to run fighting coverage to remove Blissey.
Scizor can kick ass by running a physical Technician-boosted Hidden Power - Ground makes Heatran think twice about coming in, Rock allows it to pummel birds and such (not that it's needed due to dem sneaky pebbles) and Ghost can hit ghosts it had to use Pursuit for (which it will miss sorely).
Some special Fire-Types can drop Fire Blast for the more reliable Flare Blitz.
DragMag teams no longer have physical Outrage, so they need to run fighting coverage to remove Blissey.
Um, no.
-Naive 0 SpA Garchomp does 50% to SpDef Skarmory with Fire Blast.
-Salamence obviously doesn't give a damn about both of them.
-Same for Dragonite.
-Flygon's Fire Blast is just as strong as Garchomp's.
-Kingdra gets HP Fighting which does a lot with just LO alone (2HKOs after DD regardless of item).
-Altaria just DDs in Blissey's face because it has Heal Bell.
You acknowledge at the end that Fighting coverage is needed, so don't know why you said SkarmBliss stops them.
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I only thought that since their dragon moves are special and the physical coverage is generally resisted by Skarm.
So I guess dragons remain as op as ever?
So I guess dragons remain as op as ever?
Much weaker in general, but certainly not stopped by that core. Because of Steels and the lack of physical STABs, they won't be going full physical, ever.
I mean, Flygon and Dnite would run mixed all the time and Kingdra would lose the unpredictability since all would be Specs or Special Rain Dance. Dragonite can work with mixxed but i think Flygon would be significantly worse.
I think people would run more mixed walls than dedicated Phys. or Special ones and Choiced attackers would be probably as good as in the normal meta.
Time for the next one. What if EV's and IV's did not exist in BW?
So there are tons of ev and iv spreads for most pokemon but what if they were never a thing? That would mean no hidden power as well and bulkier pokemon. Natures will still exist in this scenario though. But what else would change? Would new threats appear while old threats fade away? You tell me!
So there are tons of ev and iv spreads for most pokemon but what if they were never a thing? That would mean no hidden power as well and bulkier pokemon. Natures will still exist in this scenario though. But what else would change? Would new threats appear while old threats fade away? You tell me!
Stall teams and more defensive balance teams would be much more prevalent. Anything with a 4x weakness to a Hidden Power will instantly get better (Hi Ferrothorn and Scizor). Keldeo would be a lot worse considering Jellicent and anything resisting it's dual STAB would wall it to hell and back. Gliscor would be a better mon in general because you can't just slap HP Ice on something to beat it. Mixed attackers would also be really good since you don't need to split EVs on them like you usually do.
All in all, I think the removal of Hidden Powers would affect the meta the most of these changes.
Short but to the point. Alright next we have what if substitute worked properly in RBY?
So in rby, subs did block attacks but it did not prevent status. But what if it did? Would that reduce the amount of status used in rby? Would new threats appear while old threats fade? You tell me!
So in rby, subs did block attacks but it did not prevent status. But what if it did? Would that reduce the amount of status used in rby? Would new threats appear while old threats fade? You tell me!
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Well.. this is actually one of the most key mechanics of stadium version, so it's not an un-asked what if already :[
SubKazam EVERYWHERE zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. It puts you in a position where you're forced to let something good take paralysis (such as your own SToss Zam) or Psychic (if you send in Lax or something), otherwise many other switches have trouble beating its subs (Chansey).
Obviously this is a change that mainly benefits fast attackers, the kind of stuff that cleans up lategame. Maybe we see more Tauros running Sub, Persian definitely does, I can see Zap using Sub as well. Basically anything that dislikes paralysis and has a relatively free slot available.
This means paralysis becomes a lot harder to spread lategame, but it is still vitally important early/midgame, with Zam being the only likely thing to use Sub in that stage of the game.
Obviously this is a change that mainly benefits fast attackers, the kind of stuff that cleans up lategame. Maybe we see more Tauros running Sub, Persian definitely does, I can see Zap using Sub as well. Basically anything that dislikes paralysis and has a relatively free slot available.
This means paralysis becomes a lot harder to spread lategame, but it is still vitally important early/midgame, with Zam being the only likely thing to use Sub in that stage of the game.
Sub at least blocks Poison and secondary-effect statuses (e.g., Bslam paralysis) in RBY.
Lutra loves Stadium he could probably tell you guys all about sub. But from what I recall, SubKazam is indeed the main beneficiary, with the occasional something like Persian or Tauros running it as well.
This is just theorycrafting here, but I wouldn't be surprised to see slower, bulky things like Snorlax run it from time to time either. Particularly if we're talking working in-cart sub where Sleep is more important, something like Lax might appreciate being able to get a sub up on Chansey to buffer it against possible Counters and not have to worry about getting slept by an Egg switch-in.
Lutra loves Stadium he could probably tell you guys all about sub. But from what I recall, SubKazam is indeed the main beneficiary, with the occasional something like Persian or Tauros running it as well.
This is just theorycrafting here, but I wouldn't be surprised to see slower, bulky things like Snorlax run it from time to time either. Particularly if we're talking working in-cart sub where Sleep is more important, something like Lax might appreciate being able to get a sub up on Chansey to buffer it against possible Counters and not have to worry about getting slept by an Egg switch-in.