All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

[Ortheore]

Raikou. Raikou everywhere.

Cune looks much nicer now but that's overshadowed by Kou imo. Especially useful since it can either run a beastly Cro set or CMRoar to beat opposing CMers and spikes shuffle. Still tho, that Raikou...
Jynx makes really cool use of it actually, forces lots of switches and has good speed to capitalise on them as well.
Espeon suddenly becomes a thing, although it still has to contend with Lax
Entei is still shit.
Blissey would actually make an intriguing user of CM if it weren't for the fact that it can't actually beat opposing CMers

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

^Jynx actually would be a cool user because it could put a counter to sleep. You would need at least two mons to deal with that. Slowbro/King resist the STABs and run CM as well. Not as good as Cune though obviously.

I love how Entei looks good at first, but then you realize it still needs Sunny Day to use Solar Beam, lol. At least it's bulky I guess.

 

[Kingler]

Cune/raikous would outright be broken lol no question. Get the lax out of the way with a boom, you got yourselves a nice sweep. Cune's also bulky as shit from both sides so don't expect it to die very quickly. Electrics don't even seem like good checks considering they'll barely 2hko at +1.

 

[Bughouse]

Roar Raikou becomes very popular as a CM Raikou check. Espeon can now Calm Mind Pass, which could be cool too.

 

[Funbot28]

I think Raikou would slightly outclass Zapdos, as it can CM sweep and phaze other setup sweepers aswell

 

[LightningLord2]

Suicune and Raikou aren't the only ones giving a headache - silly Psychic-Types like Alakazam and Slowbro now finally have a way to boost their power. After one Calm Mind, Zam has a small chance at beating a CurseLax switching in as it just lives an unboosted Double-Edge and can 2HKO if Psychic crits once (chances are that DE recoil could make a difference)

 

[Bad Ass]

This would just break GSC. The entire tier would revolve around CM users. CM Raikou would be nearly unstoppable except for opposing Roar Raikou or like fucking Steelix. Even Snorlax is a shaky switchin to normal Raikous taking 30% from thunder, it would just outright lose to CM raikou.

The only way to beat Suicune would be CM wars.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

This would just break GSC. The entire tier would revolve around CM users. CM Raikou would be nearly unstoppable except for opposing Roar Raikou or like fucking Steelix. Even Snorlax is a shaky switchin to normal Raikous taking 30% from thunder, it would just outright lose to CM raikou.

The only way to beat Suicune would be CM wars.

Steelix wouldn't like taking the constant Hidden Powers. As for Snorlax, it doesn't change with countering Raikou much if you switch into Raikou quickly. Two regular attacks do more damage than a single +1 attack. And you've wasted time if you use Thunder and it misses. To get a possible sweep, you generally do need Snorlax out the way.

 

[Bad Ass]

Steelix wouldn't like taking the constant Hidden Powers. As for Snorlax, it doesn't change with countering Raikou much if you switch into Raikou quickly. Two regular attacks do more damage than a single +1 attack. And you've wasted time if you use Thunder and it misses. To get a possible sweep, you generally do need Snorlax out the way.

Yeah that's why i said 'fucking steelix' like youd have to resort to steelix, a generally meh mon, to beat raikou. also raikou would always have the opportunity of cming up on the lax switchin and then going for two thunders for stupid big amounts of damage. risky and suboptimal, sure, but it just mitigates snorlax's already shaky position as a raikou check

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

The other point is that the second Lax has to Rest Raikou gets to go to town on its ass.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

True that, so pressure it to do so. It's still a good match-up depending on what Snorlax it is. I wouldn't even bother though, with Roar Raikou being the safer.

Would anyone try Psych Up?

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

The thing about Suicune is that if it's not running Roar, Raikou can come in and CM right alongside it or threaten STABs right away. If it does have Roar, you can still use Haze, as it's safe to do so against it, unlike Raikou, which threatens most everything with Haze.

 

[Typhlito]

Seems like a really interesting change. How about this one? What if the locked moves of previous gens were available in ADV?

So we know that the change in the types of cartridges used between GSC and ADV were different to the point where you are unable to transfer pokemon to and from the two gens. This means moves like growth on vaporeon and lovely kiss on snorlax were lost forever. But what if that wasn't the case and you are able to transfer pokemon from GSC to ADV? As far as DV's and IV's are concerned in this scenario, just assume they are maxed out although it shouldn't make much of a difference either way. So would new threats appear and old threats fade away or would current threats become better than they already are? You tell me!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Cool concept, but I'm not sure of what would be added in, besides the NYPC moves. For the most part, all the regular moves are still available and some were added naturally in ADV.

Lovely Kiss and Growth are the obvious moves. Growth is less notable because of Calm Mind existing, but some might still use it. The small, random coverage moves are nothing because Hidden Power is there.

Couple small ones. Gyarados gets Reversal. Porygon2 can use Barrier.

As far as OU goes, asides from Snorlax running Lovely Kiss and Tauros running Quick Attack, not much would change. Maybe the lower tiers would probably see more effect though.


And lol, Mimic Wobbuffet. I wonder what BS you could pull off with that.

 

[Ortheore]

Golem also learns rapid spin fwiw. It'd probably still suck but it's something

 

[Jellicent]

Dragonite looks a lot better with ExtremeSpeed. The CB set probably gains the most from that, but it has utility on others (DD is outsped by Dugtrio, but OHKOes with ES for instance.) It also picks up Hydro Pump, but that's not compatible with ES and it had Surf anyway.

Not that they're major at all, but would we be saving the items as well? Polka Dot Bow is 12.5%, rather than 10% like Silk Scarf. The berries were all replaced anyway, so no loss there. Berserk Gene is pretty interesting, but I don't think it'd be used much. Maybe Lickitung could pull off a gimmicky set with it in NU, assuming it still got the attack boost but Own Tempo blocked the confusion.

 

[Bughouse]

The biggest thing I can think of is how Curse was a TM in GSC and not in ADV, so a substantial number of mons lost access.

Curse Baton Pass Celebi could be cool
and
Curse Steelix the Snorlax destroyer and major threat TM

In other news...
Delibird gets event move Spikes alongside its Rapid Spin. Clearly the new Forretress. It's also faster and can't get trapped by either Dugtrio or Magneton. /s and even if it wasn't Rapid Spin is egg so it would still be incompatible :(

 

[Typhlito]

After much delay, I present you with a new topic. What if choiced items did not exist in DPP?

Choice scarf, specs, and band play a significant role on the viability of many pokemon. It allows it to either power through pokemon that may otherwise wall it or outscored threats that normally outspeed it. But what if they never existed? How would such a methane be played with this change? Would new threats appear while current threats fade away? You tell me!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Biggest removal is the Choice Scarf. Huge buff for setup sweepers and fast mons in general. No more catching Dragon Dancers, so Gyarados is extremely scary and will require use of bulky waters and such to check. No Jirachi for a quick catch with Thunderpunch for example.

No Scarf or Band Tyranitar. Massive effect as Starmie can always outspeed, manage its health, or escape safely. Tyranitar can no longer be that useful check for a lot of fast or powerful stuff weak to Pursuit or resistant to its STABs as they will always outspeed and get to move first. Gengar gets an extra turn, Azelf isn't checkmated instantly, Lucario isn't stopped. Physical walks no longer have to worry about powerful Band attacks, so they can come in safely. With the lack of choice items, Fire Blast is more of a possibility though, so Skarmory still needs to watch out.

Heatran loses its trademark set so there's no surprises from that set. Not much to say except now that Dugtrio can always trap on revenge now (but with LO only).

No more Scarf leads. Sash and Lum are the primary items.

Less U-turn spamming in my opinion, which I would be happy with.

 

[Apollo.]

Without the Choice Scarf, many setup sweeper will be a pain to deal with, like Dragonite, Gyarados or even Tyranitar. Most people will use lure such as Shuca Berry Jirachi, Empoleon for exemple to revenge kill Dragonite (unless its an Yache Berry variant but you will have most of time a decent shot to beat it). Without Scarf Tyranitar/Scizor, Starmie would be even more effective in the metagame since it will very hard to pursuit without an Weavile (which doesn't have the required bulk to switch in an Hydro Pump + SR with some prior damage), spinblocking would be really hard since without the Choice Scarf, Rotom-A can't be used as the best spinblocker to it since the defensive variant is 2HKO'd with SR and prior damage and Gengar isn't really the best switch-in to Starmie. Balanced/Stall team would have problem with Gengar without Scarf Tyranitar, you will have to rely on Skarmory and pivoting to beat it. Of course, U-turn would be less used since it will loose many advantages (Scooting or for exemple, CB Azelf u-turning on an Tyranitar switch-in and than pressuring him back with Scarf u-turner which outspeed all Ttar variant).


Without the Choice Band, many mon will loose their ability to being really good wallbreaker like CB Ttar which, even if rarely seen these time is still doing an huge work and is still a huge team for every team (even prepared one), Infernape doesn't suffer to much from this change but it will be not used as lead scooter anymore, Flygon with the lost of both of Choice Scarf and Choice Band would be an very bad lead, Scizor will obviously suffer a little bit with these change due to the lack of power of Bullet Punch which is one of his main advantage : having one of the best priority in the game and using it to revenge/finish an mon.


The best users of Choice Specs are Electric types such as Zapdos and Jolteon and they will still have many other good way to deal damage (better than the Specs one like LO or Magnet), SpecsPert is rare but i'm not seeing him suffering from this change, SpecsRachi is fun because Doom Desire is broken since it have literally no stab which mean you can spam it everytime in the game without worry about an Tyranitar, Trick on Lead Starmie would be like non-existant,



As Aerodactyl Legend said it, Dugtrio would don't have to play an Focus Sash or an random Scarf to be sure to revenge kill/trapkill Heatran.

 

[AJC]

i should point out choice band existed in ADV before gen 4 gave us specs and scarf.

but as already said the biggest change would be the removal of choice scarf shenanigans meaning speed is absolute meaning offensive mons have more checks and counters as they can't rely on choice scarf giving them that boost and letting them hit something they wouldn't normally be able to hit first.

 

[Typhlito]

Sounds interesting. How about this one? What if all dream world abilities were released in BW?

These abilities gave many pokemon new ways to deal with the competition but not that many of them were released during gen 5. But what if they were? Would new threats appear while old threats fade away? You tell me!

Btw, this will include dream abilities that were changed in newer gens (ex: zapdos and chandelure). Also, I am aware that there was a ladder for this one at one time but still interested to hear about it for everyone who missed it so post away!

 

[Porii Sames]

chandy is extremely overcentralizing in DW meta. serperior is frequently underwhelming. there are some other cool things like sheer force gatr and lightningrod zapos but on the whole they're not huge metagame threats. chandy gets even better with gene legal (as it was then) because it was such an amazing check to gene, but on the whole chandy could just run through teams without proper shedshells. it changes the meta but it's not broken.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Ban Chandelure obviously.

A big one is Serperior. Contrary Serperior is so much better in BW than in XY, mainly due to the fact that there's less that avoids its coverage moves. You mainly had to think about Heatran, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn. So easy to remove the latter two with Magnezone, so HP Fire on Serperior wasn't needed. Just run Ground, Fighting, or even Water and you were good. In XY, There's a lot more stuff that gives it a hard time. Heatran is joined by Charizard and Passho Volcarona, so you're very limited in covering all of them. Mega Venusaur fucks it up. And a lot more faster threats came in as well. Imagine it in BW now with the new format, so no Chlorophyll Venusaur and such, making it even better.

Zapdos not getting Lightningrod was probably one of the most disappointing things that ever happened in BW. And Shit Freak even changed it to Static in XY, the fuckers. Such a big deal when weather was big and Electric attacks are everywhere to hit Waters. Would have been a cool alternative to Thunderus-T, as Heat Wave is better against Ferrothorn than Focus Miss. That said, Thunderus-T is still probably all around better. With the Stealth Rock weakness and residual damage, Volt Absorb is nice and even at Timid, its stronger than Zapdos naturally.

The three beasts get their immunities earlier. I'd fucks with Water Absorb Suicune. The only thing Suicune doesn't have enough of is healing. However, Gastrodon and Quagsire are immune to Electric, so they're better in OU.

Wasn't Swarm locked on Volcarona back then? Burns are nice, but a +1-Swarm Bug Buzz is so much scarier.

 

[Porii Sames]

i always found serperior to be extremely underwhelming in DW OU though gene and chandy being legal certainly had something to do with that.