Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Flaming Facepalm]

You're forgetting something here bro, I'm not arguing Charizard for A rank, I'm just arguing it for B- or like Piexplode said move some of the C+ mons down such as Arceus-Fire and Gyarados seriously what does this even KO at +1?. Charizard X still has some perks over Blaziken such as being able to take priority better plus the stuff you mentioned. Probably dumb to mention but Charizard *can* be an emergency check to Xerneas. Before Mega evolving it can actually take a +2 moonblast from Modest Xerneas at full health and hit it back with a Flare Blitz dealing 38-45% which plus the hit Xerneas took during setting up should be enough to kill if not you can pick it off with Extremespeed or other priority move. Stealth Rock is annoying but with Defog everywhere is not that big of a problem as you might think.



With that logic why even rank all the C rank and down mons? if there's better Pokemon and @Canman92 this actually has nothing to do with fanboyism what a weak counter argument if you want to talk about favorites, I think Rayquaza is the coolest looking Dragon type.

To be honest, I think where Charizard is is completely fine. It's outclassed so much by Mega Blaziken that there's almost no incentive whatsoever to use it as Hack said. To answer your question (not really question IMO, just mindless bitching at Hack.) about why we choose to rank the bad mons, you need to realize that just because a mon is outclassed by something doesn't mean it can't still have a niche. Mega Blaze makes Zard X look like complete trash, but Zard X has a niche of performing a bit better on Web teams, as well as hitting Giratina with STAB Dragon Claw/Outrage so that your opponent can't just whip out Giratina like it's their dick all the time against you like they would against Blaze. This is why Charizard fits the C Rank description perfectly.

C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

Now, compare with the B Rank description.

B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

Since everyone acknowledges that Zard is mostly outclassed by Blaziken, this means that:

1.) Zard can stay where he is.
2.) The solution is to move down Arc-Fire and Gyarados, because correct me if I'm wrong, Gyarados has no niche outside of making your opponent throw the match due to them laughing to death. Arc-Fire sucks outside of being a good GeoXern check.

 

[Disaster Area]

Actualy a +2 Knock Off beats Gira-A anyway from Blaze.. It just means that to handle gira with blaze u need to run a certain variant.
Gyarados probably should stay where it is, it's not actually as bad as fire arceus; he has a niche as being an okay check to mega blaziken, with the ability to become a sweeper/wincon later into the game. I think most people acknowledge it's not worth usage all that much, but I believe I've seen decent enough teams from the likes of ZoroDark and WreckDra with it, which is not something I could say about fireceus :]

 

[haxiom]

2.) The solution is to move down Arc-Fire and Gyarados, because correct me if I'm wrong, Gyarados has no niche outside of making your opponent throw the match due to them laughing to death. Arc-Fire sucks outside of being a good GeoXern check.

Ha yeah I actually like Gyarados. It checks Blaziken, as well as certain MMY variants. See RMT in sig for an example :)

Basically yeah Gyarados isn't as bad as it seems.

 

[MikeDawg]

Chain BP just dies to crits.
Evasion BP when used by a good exploitative team and by a "skilled" player is theoretically unbeatable unless you have something with Haze.

Old post, but inb4substitute

In all seriousness (though the sub comment is serious. Crits are rarely an issue for baton pass unless they happen at a VERY opportune time. You are behind a sub 90% of the game), I'm sad that the Bpass discussion was cut so short by posts like "crits obviously. Phasing > baton pass"

Given the clear lack of knowledge on the subject, i think a bit of discussion could be beneficial.

I'm not much of an ubers player, so the most that I can do without being at-risk of spouting out something misinformed is request a bit more (experienced) commentary on its effectiveness, differences from ou, etc.

 

[MikeDawg]

Judging from my experience in ou, I would assume that bpass has it slightly harder in ubers.

One of the most prominent ways to check bpass was to lead with a very powerful special attacker. It didn't give the bpass team time to set up, and any team lacking a smeargle was practically doomed.

These strongmons are in great quantity in Ubers.

Bpass does gain from the ability to utilize evasion, though.

A speed boost scoli pass to smeargle, followed by a spore and then a minimize can offer greater opportunity to "start" the chain, though it is more of a luck-based approach, it is certainly a helpful one. The boost allows smeargle to possibly escape an incoming priority attack and get off a pass

 

[MrKijani]

Judging from my experience in ou, I would assume that bpass has it slightly harder in ubers.

One of the most prominent ways to check bpass was to lead with a very powerful special attacker. It didn't give the bpass team time to set up, and any team lacking a smeargle was practically doomed.

These strongmons are in great quantity in Ubers.

Bpass does gain from the ability to utilize evasion, though.

A speed boost scoli pass to smeargle, followed by a spore and then a minimize can offer greater opportunity to "start" the chain, though it is more of a luck-based approach, it is certainly a helpful one. The boost allows smeargle to possibly escape an incoming priority attack and get off a pass

I haven't had much time facing adequate BP Chains in my so far short Uber career, but I've found it tends to be very match-up reliant and lead biased. As Haruno said about stall and balanced being shit on without Yveltal, while leads can only provide a chance at best.

Past that my knowledge on the subject is rather limited but some more (unsalted) discussion would be interest I think.

 

[skies]

What does Abomasnow even do? It has shit bulk, not very high offenses, and super low Speed; not to mention it has a plethora of weaknesses and is susceptible to Stealth Rock. It takes up a mega slot, and I don't like to use this argument a lot, but I have to this one time. I'd rather use any other Mega like Mega Gengar or Mega Blaziken. All it does is provide Hail, which isn't even that great w/ Kyogre anyways. It isn't even reliable as a check:

• 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Abomasnow: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is outside of Rain, provided it switches in beforehand. Honestly, I see nearly no reason to use it. Could anyone show me what I'm missing, if I am missing anything, because I just don't think it's that good. For this reason, I'm nominating it to move down to D or to be flat out unranked.

 

[procrastinat]

What does Abomasnow even do? It has shit bulk, not very high offenses, and super low Speed; not to mention it has a plethora of weaknesses and is susceptible to Stealth Rock. It takes up a mega slot, and I don't like to use this argument a lot, but I have to this one time. I'd rather use any other Mega like Mega Gengar or Mega Blaziken. All it does is provide Hail, which isn't even that great w/ Kyogre anyways. It isn't even reliable as a check:

• 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Abomasnow: 142-168 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is outside of Rain, provided it switches in beforehand. Honestly, I see nearly no reason to use it. Could anyone show me what I'm missing, if I am missing anything, because I just don't think it's that good. For this reason, I'm nominating it to move down to D or to be flat out unranked.

I agree with you, and just want to say that the using up a mega slot is a much better reason not to use something in ubers than it is in OU. With like, 6 viable megas, using another one is extreme opportunity cost. You don't get the chance to use the nearly endless support that M-Gar provides, Mewtwo's Megas are simply insane offensively (but to be fair, mewtwo is no slouch itself) The ridiculous sweeping ability of M-Blaziken (again, Normal Blaziken can fill in if you take up the mega slot), I'm not entirely sure what Kangaskhan does but it hits absurdly hard and revenges well, or Lucario, the king of sticky web as I've heard it. The opportunity cost of using another mega other than these is immense, and Abomasnow isn't really that great itself. If it's only niche is in checking kyogre, other things do that better.

 

[Disaster Area]

Okay since this has died down a bit, I still think at least 1 pokemon is out of place. This is our friend, Hippodown. Currently lowly in Low-B Rank is simply not what it deserves. It is one of the few precious answers to Mega Blaziken, often the first considered, and unlike most other common answers to it is also a fantastic ekiller check. Furthermore, it has recovery and phazing, and the ability to generally fit all it wants to run on one moveslot. Put simply, it's great for role compression, offering meaningful team support and strong defensive synergy in one fell swoop; whilst it doesn't fit on very offensive builds, it is very much deserving of a spot in the A Rank, in my opinion.

A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

Very simply, I believe it satisfies these criteria.

 

[Stef0w]

Has anybody brought up magnezone, the large presence of klefki, who cant touch magnezone, means that it's Sub-chargebeam is far moe usable, while it can also check szizor with hp. fire, and xern with flash cannon.

Maybe C- rank?

 

[haxiom]

Has anybody brought up magnezone, the large presence of klefki, who cant touch magnezone, means that it's Sub-chargebeam is far moe usable, while it can also check szizor with hp. fire, and xern with flash cannon.

Maybe C- rank?

I've tested it as a pseudo Gengar that traps a lot of Xern checks. It... works but it's really weak in general, I was disappointed with a 40% HP Fire on Ferrothorn. Generally it was kind of weak, it works though. The only advantage over HP Fire Gengar would be the fact that it doesn't need a turn to evolve though.

 

[Edgar]

I've tried Magnezone out, the sub charge beam set in particular. It's one of those mons that can be really good if you get the matchup it needs, otherwise it is deadweight.

 

[Disaster Area]

Trappers are matchup reliant anyway, but gengar is highly consistent, gothitelle is usually pretty good, as is wobb, magnezone doesn't really cut it tho.

Thoughts on hippo? I forgot to mention also how it's very hard for zekrom to get past too.

 

[haxiom]

Thoughts on hippo? I forgot to mention also how it's very hard for zekrom to get past too.

Hippo is good. Not sure exactly where it falls but around A ish seems alright

 

[orch]

Hippo is absolutely not A rank material. Zekrom can pressure it super easily. Not to mention that it's toxic/wow bait and easily crippled by taunt. Also, it can't really check CB Ho-Oh, and the things that it can "check" are limited to phazing. It's fine where it is right now.

 

[haxiom]

Hippo is absolutely not A rank material. Zekrom can pressure it super easily. Not to mention that it's toxic/wow bait and easily crippled by taunt. Also, it can't really check CB Ho-Oh, and the things that it can "check" are limited to phazing. It's fine where it is right now.

I suppose. It checks similar things to Lando-T, which is nice, although the aforementioned flaws put it back. It gets recovery, which is nice, but I see your point.

 

[Fireburn]

I disagree with Hippowdon going to A-rank. It lacks the offensive potential of other A-rank Ground-types (Landorus-T, Groudon) which makes it far easier to switch into and limits its usage to defensive teams. Although Slack Off is a cool advantage, it ironically worsens its 4MSS as it has to choose between Whirlwind or Toxic (EQ/SR/Slack are mandatory) - it needs the former to phaze EKiller/Sub Ho-Oh while it needs the latter to actually damage Ho-Oh/pressure Defoggers trying to remove its Stealth Rock. It also has significant competition with Gliscor who boasts immunity to Ground-type attacks and status (though Hippo is a better EKiller check), and its poor special bulk means it is easily killed by a large portion of the metagame. It is fine where it is imo.

 

[Disaster Area]

Where do we put Victini, it's not on here?

 

[absdaddy]

Tini makes one damn good Xern check but can't do more outside that(tr does not work in gen6 like in bw, unless it's me being bad) i think somewhere around B-/C, being an offensive xern check that can hit back really hard is something lux.
Also, Vcreate in sun.

 

[Disaster Area]

TR works alright.. you just have to remember dedicated TR teams aren't usually a good idea. B- Sounds about right to me.

 

[haxiom]

Victini does a few other things as well. It handles Mewtwo decently, thanks to a typing that resists Psychic, Fire, Fighting, and Ice. However, EQ from MMX and Shadow Ball from MMY can be annoying. Thankfully, TR works really well against fast threats like Mewtwo, giving it an advantage in that sense. It also sorta almost kind of check Blaziken in a pinch. The nice thing is, pretty much nothing else really functions as an offensive check to these.

Calcs

Vs Xerneas:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 229-270 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 265-312 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Mewtwo:
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Victini: 111-131 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 89-105 (22 - 26%) -- 4.4% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 81-96 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 238-280 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vs Blaziken:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Victini: 250-295 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-320 (67.4 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not too bad... Not great either. In general it takes a ton of damage, some of these are potential KO's after rocks, notably Knock Off for Blaziken and Thunder for Xerneas. It doesn't necessarily always even KO back especially outside of sun; however its ability to rob the opposing pokemon of momentum is very nice, since all three are pretty fast threats.

That being said, Victini is meh overall I'm finding. I'm seeing it B- or C+, since I definitely don't see it even with Kangaskhan, but not as bad as Arceus-Flying. I'm personally leaning towards B- since it fits B criteria better than C imo.

 

[malefic]

Gastrodon: C- --> C+

A very specialized Pokemon that performs its role excellently. Outside of checking all viable Kyogre variants, it can be relied upon to emergency-stop CM Arceus, notably checking Electric Arceus rather well. Also, it isn't huge Gengar bait unlike many other stallmons, and can actually beat Mega Blaziken 1v1. Instrumental mon on some stall builds, really, as it's the only thing that can stop something like Specs or CM RestTalk Kyogre from ravaging these teams. No B-rank because it simply does not possess "large offensive or defensive capability", just a very usable niche; however, being grouped with the likes of Abomasnow is completely unfair and C+ is a far more accurate representation of its abilities imo.

 

[Level 56]

and can actually beat Mega Blaziken 1v1.

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 249-294 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 228-268 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 373-441 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 340-402 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[skies]

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 249-294 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 228-268 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 373-441 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Mega Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 340-402 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Blaziken runs Low Kick anyways:

• 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 115-136 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 105-124 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 172-204 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 157-186 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Level 56]

Mega Blaziken runs Low Kick anyways:

• 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 115-136 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 105-124 (24.6 - 29.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 172-204 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 157-186 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hjk > low kick

And most of the mega-blaziken are using hjk these days anyway.