I'm okay to a magnet pull and shadow tag suspect, but let's be honest here, those are really low priority at the moment, like reeeeeeeally low.Pinsirite needs to go, plain and simple, it is unhealthy to the metagame, especially now that we banned aegislash and megamawile, while they were not counters they were good checks, and pretty much forced pinsir to run eq, who had a mediocre coverage, if we end up banning thundurus pinsir will only gain from it, he needs to go.But, let's not hide things here, while it's true that pinsir is unhealthy to the metagame, ir's pretty naive imo to just focus on him.The problem here is Matchup, and yes I do not agree with the general conseous here, matchup is still a problem, not only for stall team, but for all playstyles.For example, I heard about how stall picked up the slack against monsters like terrakion, heracross (yeah right, lol, are we even considering acrobatic scor a serious choice? Or is it enough speed mew in order to 85% burn him and then die? That's quite pathetic for a stall team, if you ask me.), gardevoir, medicham, tauntgar, tauntflame, subhawlucha, cmfable, kyuremb, thundurus, landorus, both i and t, stallbreaker mew, manaphy, pinsirmag, charizard, both x and y and so on, but how about ALL THESE THREATS?Of course it can't, majority of them requires an huge amount of preparations, especially now that aegislash is gone for the "wallbreaking megas", and this is where the matchup problem begins, you pick your own loss, and wins, and I'd like to ask: what's so funny about a wallbreaker, when they are like... 900 of them? Is a matchup based game like black and white REALLY what we want to create? Sure, all this guys might give some illusion of diversity... I suppose, but at what price? If the metagame isn'ttactical (https://az1.qualtrics.com/CP/Report.php?RP...1G1OwNYu0RI0ye9)we will always have the same problem, it is time we, Smogon should address this problem once and for all, "broken" is a subjective term, most of the time, what kind of Metagame do we want? One when we consider more diversity than the actual skills of the players, or a tactical one, when we give more interest to the player's personal skill, than the variety of the usable 'mons? And what kind of sacrifice are we willing to do, in order to reach that desiderable (by us) metagame? e.g.: can we ban a great deal of pokemon, not under the "broken" aspect, but in order to "heal" the actual metagame?We talked about how king's shield was a coinflip at best during Aegislash's, suspect test, well? Isn't charizard pretty much the same, if not worse?!? How much longer do we have to wait for that thing? Maybe waiting that people, realizing that scarf landorus-therian is very common will use jolly dd zard, in order to outspeed him and ohko him with flare blitz at +0 after rocks? How can we even see what kind of form charizard has? Teambuilding? nothing stops me from adding keldeo on a sand team with charizard x, in order to weaken or fish a burn on things like azumarill, let's admit it, no matter how good you are, guessing charizard's mega form will always be a gamble, a gamble that might even cost you the game, might I add.We said, that if something unhealthy for the meta would happen after aegi's ban we would take action, especially since majority of people who didn't want aegi banned was because they were scared of things like pinsir and heracross, and thought that Smogon wouldn't take action with aegi's aftermath, well? What are we waiting for, actually? Or are we fine, with everyone saying stuff like "see, I knew they would do that, aegislash should have stayed, now the metagame is pure chaos"? Diggersby+Pinsir, isn't even "broken" in my opinion, it just abuse Smogon's actual policy of suspect testing, and yes, it's retarded as hell as a core, if you ask me that core just jokes on the sad state of the metagame, as a matter of fact, it isn't even that new, this core was used by CTC (if I remember right) on something like february 2014, I have also seen other respectable players like BKC using this long before this so called "italian" double bunny team, so why all of a sudden is famous now (and better question, why it's called italian when it wasn't created by italians in the first place)? Because we banned stuff that stopped this kind of stuff, and now we're reaping what we sow, if we go back to the aegis' suspect test, we can see some interesting trivia, as in majority of the players had a very low GXE compared to the previous suspect tests, it was basically the matchup problem created by the lack of aegislash, who made more things usable, and here we go again with the diversity vs tactical argument, it didn't take a genius to understand that aegislash ban wasn't enough and the list of ban need to go on, yet a lot of time passed, and now we're suddenly scared of this pinsir+diggersby core together with a magnezone? Eh...For those who says that it's better to wait for ORAS, I respectfully disagree, if we end things with XY now we'll have more focus in order to concentrate on whatever stuff ORAS will bring us, we already used this logic during terrakion in bw1 and drizzle/keldeo in bw2, and really, bw isn't known for being a fantastic metagame...
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Tiering thoughts until ORAS
- Thread starter Aldaron
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I've never really thought that trapping in of itself was broken. I mean, mega Gengar was pretty broken when he was still allowed in OU, but that was simply because he was already an amazin mon in of itself and Shadow Tag pushed him over the edge (imo). The only trappers we have right now are Magnezone, Gothitelle, and Wobbuffett. But are they really broken? I don't really think so.
Goth beats stall by trapping things and either tricking them or simply beating them down, but really only functions against defensively oriented mons. Has it reduced the viability of stall? Definitely. But that just means stall needs to adapt. A lot of people thought stall was dead when Aegislash got banned, but stall adapted to that. Goth has been there since day one and was arguably more effective in previous months than now, yet stall has still lived on. I really don't think that bans should be made just so a playstyle can survive. If stall is a dying breed, then so be it. But as it is now, stall is doing just fine, even though it's nowhere near what it was at the beginning of XY. I won't touch on Wobb due to lack of experience with him.
So now Magnezone. He traps steels. Yes, Magnezone makes short work of non Shed Shell Skarm, Scizor, and Ferrothorn. But how inherently broken is that? Skarm has been running Shed Shell lately, which IS a viable option nowadays because without it, he gets trapped by Mag and killed. Shed Shell is viable in the same way that Lum / Yache Berry is viable on SD Chomp - without it, you're putting yourself at risk of being crippled by status or an Ice move.
Now, Scizor and Ferrothorn can't viably run Shed Shell, as normal Scizor wants either lefties or LO to make up for the loss of his Mega Stone (which he's usually running anyways). Even so, he can adapt by running U-Turn and speed investment. Is it subpar? I say no. Again, it's a mon adapting to stay relevant in the meta. That leaves Ferro. Like Alex said, Ferro is the only steel that's truly fucked by Magnezone. Maybe that's just how things are supposed to be.
I mean, back when Aegislash was OU and Bisharp was everywhere, a lot of things became irrelevant. Things like Starmie and Jirachi, two BW OU staples, were simply not very viable and as such dropped down to UU. He Knock Off buff and steel Nerf severely hindered their performace. Even now they're still not seen very often because the meta hasn't been very kind to them. They've definitely gotten better, but they still aren't the top tier OU threats that they used to be. New threats have popped up that made these old threats irrelevant. As far as my understanding of the history of the meta goes, that has always been the case. As new threats emerge old ones fall out of favor.
Now, with all that said, I'll get to the underlying point of this post. I don't feel like trapping is inherently uncompetitive if the meta is able to function with its presence. I realize that the meta has become a lot more offensive lately, with PinsirMag Diggersby on the rise, but is that really a problem? If it is a problem, then maybe we should look at this from a different angle than just 'ban trapping pls'. Maybe the problem isn't Magnezone, but actually Pinsir. Or whatever it is that's blatantly broken with the support of Magnezone. If they're really too powerful once Skarm or Ferrothorn are removed, then maybe we should look into suspecting them. I remember reading in the 'what makes a Pokémon uber?' Thread something along the lines of, 'if a Pokémon is deemed broken when given the right circumstances, then that Pokémon is broken.' If that's the case, and Pinsir is broken once Magnezone has removed his counters, then Pinsir can be considered broken and in my eyes is worthy of a suspect test.
I don't think that trappers are broken. They may take some of the skill out of the game, but it's nowhere near the level of BP or Swagger. It's a factor that all good teams should account for just like every other top tier threat. Other mons however, (*cough Thundy cough*), are a different story.
Goth beats stall by trapping things and either tricking them or simply beating them down, but really only functions against defensively oriented mons. Has it reduced the viability of stall? Definitely. But that just means stall needs to adapt. A lot of people thought stall was dead when Aegislash got banned, but stall adapted to that. Goth has been there since day one and was arguably more effective in previous months than now, yet stall has still lived on. I really don't think that bans should be made just so a playstyle can survive. If stall is a dying breed, then so be it. But as it is now, stall is doing just fine, even though it's nowhere near what it was at the beginning of XY. I won't touch on Wobb due to lack of experience with him.
So now Magnezone. He traps steels. Yes, Magnezone makes short work of non Shed Shell Skarm, Scizor, and Ferrothorn. But how inherently broken is that? Skarm has been running Shed Shell lately, which IS a viable option nowadays because without it, he gets trapped by Mag and killed. Shed Shell is viable in the same way that Lum / Yache Berry is viable on SD Chomp - without it, you're putting yourself at risk of being crippled by status or an Ice move.
Now, Scizor and Ferrothorn can't viably run Shed Shell, as normal Scizor wants either lefties or LO to make up for the loss of his Mega Stone (which he's usually running anyways). Even so, he can adapt by running U-Turn and speed investment. Is it subpar? I say no. Again, it's a mon adapting to stay relevant in the meta. That leaves Ferro. Like Alex said, Ferro is the only steel that's truly fucked by Magnezone. Maybe that's just how things are supposed to be.
I mean, back when Aegislash was OU and Bisharp was everywhere, a lot of things became irrelevant. Things like Starmie and Jirachi, two BW OU staples, were simply not very viable and as such dropped down to UU. He Knock Off buff and steel Nerf severely hindered their performace. Even now they're still not seen very often because the meta hasn't been very kind to them. They've definitely gotten better, but they still aren't the top tier OU threats that they used to be. New threats have popped up that made these old threats irrelevant. As far as my understanding of the history of the meta goes, that has always been the case. As new threats emerge old ones fall out of favor.
Now, with all that said, I'll get to the underlying point of this post. I don't feel like trapping is inherently uncompetitive if the meta is able to function with its presence. I realize that the meta has become a lot more offensive lately, with PinsirMag Diggersby on the rise, but is that really a problem? If it is a problem, then maybe we should look at this from a different angle than just 'ban trapping pls'. Maybe the problem isn't Magnezone, but actually Pinsir. Or whatever it is that's blatantly broken with the support of Magnezone. If they're really too powerful once Skarm or Ferrothorn are removed, then maybe we should look into suspecting them. I remember reading in the 'what makes a Pokémon uber?' Thread something along the lines of, 'if a Pokémon is deemed broken when given the right circumstances, then that Pokémon is broken.' If that's the case, and Pinsir is broken once Magnezone has removed his counters, then Pinsir can be considered broken and in my eyes is worthy of a suspect test.
I don't think that trappers are broken. They may take some of the skill out of the game, but it's nowhere near the level of BP or Swagger. It's a factor that all good teams should account for just like every other top tier threat. Other mons however, (*cough Thundy cough*), are a different story.
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I don't think you understand the point about Gothitelle. Gothitelle by its mere presence on a team invalidates the use of defensive Pokemon to handle a threat. Completely invalidates it. Stall can't 'adapt' to it lol unless you're suggesting stall runs a Pursuit Tyranitar or Bisharp which is flawed thinking for reasons I hopefully don't have to explain. This is not just about stall, though, this is about every team reliant on defensive cores to handle threats so if you think this ridiculous matchup problem is just for stall teams, you're heavily mistaken.Clone said:
I could not agree more with Enki and what would really be awesome is if we don't have to play a cancerous meta for another almost 2 months - actually doing something about this now.
love the cherry picking brah*
If you read the second part of that sentence, you would see that I said that she 'really only functions against defensively oriented mons.' Im aware of how Gothitelle works. Ive both faced and used her. It just so happens to be that she threatens stall more than anything else. And by 'adapt,' Im simply referring to stall finding ways to not be deadweight if a mon is tricked a scarf or Taunted and unable to switch. Dont put words in my mouth with a condescending tone to write off my argument. Im not saying that stall will find a perfect Goth counter, because it wont. But stall has lived this long with Gothitelle in the tier, and if it is truly a viable playstyle, then it will find some way to survive against this 'sudden new threat.' Stall already has Shed Shell Skarm and Doublade, two mons that cant even be trapped. And all good stall teams have at least some sort of offensive presence, no matter how small it may be.
The old days of "Toxic / Burn everything and spam recover untill its dead"** are over. Stall is becoming less and less viable, and its not because of Gothitelle. She may play a part in this, but shes not the defining factor. The power creep has simply started to overpower common stall cores. The old VenuTran SkarmBliss (Chansey) cores dont survive in todays meta as well as they did 9 months ago. Stall has found new ways to adapt to the wallbreakers found in todays meta such as Doublade, Cresselia, or Stalltini. When new threats emerge, stall has to adapt to them too. If it cant, then stall simply isnt viable and becomes obsolete. Is that a bad thing? No. it means that it has no place in the meta like Sticky Web or Trick Room, just a niche that has a good match up every once and a while. It may upset some people (and make others jizz in their pants), but times are changing, and not everything can keep up.
Are there some things in the meta that are broken in the right circumstances? Yeah. Maybe. I brought up PinsirMag and how Pinsir doesnt have many stops outside of Shed Shell Skarm and Zapdos. If thats a problem, then why not suspect him? "If X mon is broken in Y circumstances, and Y circumstances can be replicated on a consistent basis, then X mon can logically be deemed broken." <-- that should be the mentality when dealing with bans, not "I dont like the meta because its too offensive for my tastes ban X mon pls". The meta will never appeal to everyone. You may hate it. I enjoy it. Ban the broken things and not "unfun things."
*Not Exaggerated
**Exaggerated for the sake of context.
see, this is the problem. there are ZERO ways to adapt to this.
besides that your argument is really just a tangent that does not address what i said; the unhealthy matchup effect of goth vs any team with a defensive core. i am not referring specifically to its impact stall but how much it skews the matchup of any team with offensive threats vs any team reliant on defensive cores to handle said threats, to reiterate including stall, balanced, and even bulky offense. in any case it's not acceptable for stall to be unviable in the metagame like at all if our aim is to create an acceptable balance which includes viability of offensive, balanced, and defensive playstyles.
Well first off, this May or may not be true. I haven't seen very many complaints about goth untill recently, which leads me to believe that this only recently became a problem. There may be undiscovered ways to adapt that haven't been found yet. There may not be. I'm not claiming either side.
Second off, if this is the case, then it needs to be determined that Goth truly does meet the requirements of being broken. If this is the case, then a suspect test should follow. If not, then I guess people need to find ways around her.
Well, you did cherry pick my post while ignoring everything else so
Regardless, like before, it needs to be determined if this is truly a broken aspect of the game. I personally don't believe so, because balance and BO teams should be able to afford to run things that fuck up Gothitelle. If a balance team with A Venutran core is unable to deal with a threat that threatens such a vital aspect of the team, then that team deserves to lose to Gothitelle. Stall aside, it shouldn't be inherently difficult to fit something like Latias, Azumarill, Lando T, SpDef Gliscor, etc onto a balance build, seeing as they do fit right in with that playstyle. Yeah your Ferrothorn or Crocune might get trapped and beaten, but if you have ways to handle Goth it shouldn't be any different than Keldeo beating a Heatran and losing to Latios he next turn. I realize that Heatran can switch out and Crocune can't, but the principle is the same. I can't see how a Stallbreaker beating a defensive core is a bad thing.
This really isn't that true, and here's why: offense is the top dog in the meta currently. Even so, Balance and BO both have ways of dealing with offense, as well as other balance and BO teams. Stall does too, to an extent. However, offense being the top dog doesn't mean that the meta is unbalanced. There will always be a dominat playstyle. HO was back when the Deos were OU and that meta was exponentially worse. Balance was for a time after the Mawile ban. Now it's shifting back towards offense again. Anyways, there will always be a best and worst playstyle. And if stall is the worst, then that's how it's gonna be. There will never be an equilibrium between the three main build archetypes. And if two have to be severely nerfed in order for the third to excel, then that meta isn't truly balanced, as the means to get there significantly hurt two other playstyles. If stall has to take a hit simply because it cant keep up with the meta, then why should it slow down to allow stall to catch up?
On top of this, defensive playstyles also apply to things like defensive balance and semi stall. If they are able to live on in the meta then they fit the criteria of defensive play by definition. Besides, if Gamefreak decided that it's acceptable to create a plethora of mons with insane offenses without balancing it out with a plethora of mons with suitable defenses to take on these offensive monsters, who are we to do it for them? We ban the broken shit that shits on everything. Not stuff that's an annoyance for some people or playstyles.
This is just my view on stall. Not necessarily related to the above but it kinda is at the same time.
Here's the thing about stall: it gets the short end of the stick every time. People hate it. Therefore they will find ways to beat it. Mew, Gliscor, Gengar, etc. all break stall and were developed specifically to break stall. Stall adapted back with a different variant of Gliscor to take on Gengar, who simply adapted back. And the thing is, stall can only adapt to a certain point untill it simply becomes inefficient. This has been evident throughout the entire span of XY. I haven't played previous gens outside of tours, but what I have noticed is that stall simply that great like it was in Gen 2. Game Freak decided to create a massive power creep wth the following generations without adding mons to balance it out. It's why Snorlax or Forretress will never be OU again. They simply can't keep up. This was definitely evident with many of the new Megas. Shit like Gengar and Kanga were so blatantly powerful that they were quick banned. Other shit Like Luke and Mawile were banned later on, but still because of their massive power. We haven't banned anything for being too defensive, because nothing like that outside of Lugia or Giratina exist. If you have a steel door, and start to ram that door, it may hold firm for a period of time. It may be long. It may be short. But no matter what, one day that steel door won't be able to take it anymore, and as such will be thrown off its hinges. That steel door is stall, and every time a new generation has come through that steel door gets closer and closer to being broken through. Duck tape won't fix that. (Duck tape is the bans). It will get to a point where it's won't be fixable, and we'll simply have to accept that.
Here's the thing about stall: it gets the short end of the stick every time. People hate it. Therefore they will find ways to beat it. Mew, Gliscor, Gengar, etc. all break stall and were developed specifically to break stall. Stall adapted back with a different variant of Gliscor to take on Gengar, who simply adapted back. And the thing is, stall can only adapt to a certain point untill it simply becomes inefficient. This has been evident throughout the entire span of XY. I haven't played previous gens outside of tours, but what I have noticed is that stall simply that great like it was in Gen 2. Game Freak decided to create a massive power creep wth the following generations without adding mons to balance it out. It's why Snorlax or Forretress will never be OU again. They simply can't keep up. This was definitely evident with many of the new Megas. Shit like Gengar and Kanga were so blatantly powerful that they were quick banned. Other shit Like Luke and Mawile were banned later on, but still because of their massive power. We haven't banned anything for being too defensive, because nothing like that outside of Lugia or Giratina exist. If you have a steel door, and start to ram that door, it may hold firm for a period of time. It may be long. It may be short. But no matter what, one day that steel door won't be able to take it anymore, and as such will be thrown off its hinges. That steel door is stall, and every time a new generation has come through that steel door gets closer and closer to being broken through. Duck tape won't fix that. (Duck tape is the bans). It will get to a point where it's won't be fixable, and we'll simply have to accept that.
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K so I didn’t want to post here but this thread is just too retarded to ignore. In the last 15 posts or so sr is the most reasonable thing! Magnezone nom is a joke, it literally traps one mon consistently and there is tons of steels that don’t get trapped (not including shell skarm which ill get to later), heatran, rachi, doublade, etc
to say that it traps every pinsir counter is also ridiculous, it literally only traps skarm for it, while aerodactyl and ‘insert electric’ are great checks, as well as its tendency to be eked by offensive shit life scarf lando/ttar. As for pinsir’s brokeness itself, that is slightly more reasonable but also kinda dumb. It can’t break its own counters, and is 2x then 4x! weak to sr. there is a reason its so hard to fit on teams, and it doesn’t get used that much outside of one team
as for knock off pinsir, that is basically a joke set that is only used to ct basically, it is not a real threat! it literally puts in work against 1 mon while losing coverage against all the steels and rocks.
as for skarm, skarm sux because its passive as hell and can’t hurt switching at all. Its lack of viability has little to do with magnezone and much more the fact that it can’t fit on teams due to giving up massive momentum every time it comes in
finally, as for stall being unable to beat trappers in general, that is also not true. Maybe skarm chans venu stall can’t, but that playsyle is bad for other reasons. Stall can adapt and not be a shitty brain dead play style. For example, I used a stall that has gone 7-1 in tour, including beating teams with mag and goth. maybe stall has to actually make plays now, or have offensive presence, instead of just clicking buttons with chansey and venu. But I don’t think thats the worst thing. Combined with goth’s and to some extent mag’s inability vs any offense, and they are far from broken.
also, a ben gay quote-
[9/30/14, 7:18:22 PM] ben gay: for me personally, i find lures alot more effective then trapping
[9/30/14, 7:18:27 PM] ben gay: which aids in a sweep
[9/30/14, 7:18:45 PM] ben gay: like hp fire starmie to lure ferro so gyara can sweep or something like that
[9/30/14, 7:20:17 PM] ben gay: when he says that trapping is the ez way out
[9/30/14, 7:20:20 PM] ben gay: in reality its not
[9/30/14, 7:20:26 PM] ben gay: cuz they already know in team prev
[9/30/14, 7:20:29 PM] ben gay: what u want to trap
in general lures are effective overall
while trapping specifically shadow tag is good agnst stall
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-23666
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-23870
-couple of replays of stall/balance vs goth
ps- sr isn't broken just me showin how shit the other posts have been
to say that it traps every pinsir counter is also ridiculous, it literally only traps skarm for it, while aerodactyl and ‘insert electric’ are great checks, as well as its tendency to be eked by offensive shit life scarf lando/ttar. As for pinsir’s brokeness itself, that is slightly more reasonable but also kinda dumb. It can’t break its own counters, and is 2x then 4x! weak to sr. there is a reason its so hard to fit on teams, and it doesn’t get used that much outside of one team
as for knock off pinsir, that is basically a joke set that is only used to ct basically, it is not a real threat! it literally puts in work against 1 mon while losing coverage against all the steels and rocks.
as for skarm, skarm sux because its passive as hell and can’t hurt switching at all. Its lack of viability has little to do with magnezone and much more the fact that it can’t fit on teams due to giving up massive momentum every time it comes in
finally, as for stall being unable to beat trappers in general, that is also not true. Maybe skarm chans venu stall can’t, but that playsyle is bad for other reasons. Stall can adapt and not be a shitty brain dead play style. For example, I used a stall that has gone 7-1 in tour, including beating teams with mag and goth. maybe stall has to actually make plays now, or have offensive presence, instead of just clicking buttons with chansey and venu. But I don’t think thats the worst thing. Combined with goth’s and to some extent mag’s inability vs any offense, and they are far from broken.
also, a ben gay quote-
[9/30/14, 7:18:22 PM] ben gay: for me personally, i find lures alot more effective then trapping
[9/30/14, 7:18:27 PM] ben gay: which aids in a sweep
[9/30/14, 7:18:45 PM] ben gay: like hp fire starmie to lure ferro so gyara can sweep or something like that
[9/30/14, 7:20:17 PM] ben gay: when he says that trapping is the ez way out
[9/30/14, 7:20:20 PM] ben gay: in reality its not
[9/30/14, 7:20:26 PM] ben gay: cuz they already know in team prev
[9/30/14, 7:20:29 PM] ben gay: what u want to trap
in general lures are effective overall
while trapping specifically shadow tag is good agnst stall
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-23666
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-23870
-couple of replays of stall/balance vs goth
ps- sr isn't broken just me showin how shit the other posts have been
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jukain's comment was incredibly brusque and i do not agree with his philosophies. pokemon is not inherently equal and in individual metagames there are going to be styles which are popular and later ways to overcome them; this is simple metagame development that we've seen time and time again. many of the qualms in the thread seem to come from players whom have inveterate playstyles or pokemon preferences and cannot adapt to the metagame at hand. there is a substantial difference between a suspect/banworthy pokemon and a pokemon which matches up well against your current build. mega gyarados, not too long ago, was an absolutely monster pokemon and now it is hardly seen. instead of complaining about magnezone, maybe adjust the way you see stall. unlike other suspects, gothitelle and magnezone are hardly boasting any qualities which are outlandish. in fact, both are subpar and can often be deadweight on teams. maybe instead of making incredibly baseless comments such as "stall isn't viable at all", you should focus on innovating the metagame so it can be once again.
Lol, we ain't testing Magnet Pull, Shadow Tag, or Stealth Rock any time soon.
I perhaps made the mistake of leaving this far too open ended atm...
I'm not really a fan of limiting conversation but considering some frankly ridiculously hyperbolic statements within the last 12 or so posts, let's say I'm currently limiting conversation to (and note, I'm not saying we're suspecting these, just limiting potential suspect conversation to these):
1.) Thundurus-I - for obvious reasons, including being a "no thinking" and extraordinarily low opportunity cost check to sweepers, the ability to shut down offensive teams, the ability to shut down defensive teams
2.) Charizard-Y / Charizard-X - we wouldn't suspect both at the same time, just decide whether or not the near complete lack of knowledge of what type of Charizard it is + both being so different (one hitting extraordinarily hard physically, the other specially) is enough to warrant a suspect, and of the two which does what it does better
3.) Greninja - for being too anti-offensive
4.) Talonflame - for being too anti-offensive
5.) Unaware - for being too anti-offensive
As for me, I'm not buying 3-5 at all, but that's just right now and I'm open to good arguments. I included 3-5 simply because a few good players have mentioned them and I'm curious to see where people stand (I'm gonna go ahead and assume most people will laugh at 3-5).
1 and 2 are where I currently see the strongest arguments, as both hurt offense and defense AND are pretty unpredictable.
I've actually heard an amusingly mixed tale of stories for the current state of xy, in that some GREAT players (note current xy ou tour winners) are saying the meta is too anti offense atm, and other great players saying it is too anti-stall, so perhaps we need another thread discussing the actual state of the meta as I have direct conversations from great tier players saying the exact opposite...
I perhaps made the mistake of leaving this far too open ended atm...
I'm not really a fan of limiting conversation but considering some frankly ridiculously hyperbolic statements within the last 12 or so posts, let's say I'm currently limiting conversation to (and note, I'm not saying we're suspecting these, just limiting potential suspect conversation to these):
1.) Thundurus-I - for obvious reasons, including being a "no thinking" and extraordinarily low opportunity cost check to sweepers, the ability to shut down offensive teams, the ability to shut down defensive teams
2.) Charizard-Y / Charizard-X - we wouldn't suspect both at the same time, just decide whether or not the near complete lack of knowledge of what type of Charizard it is + both being so different (one hitting extraordinarily hard physically, the other specially) is enough to warrant a suspect, and of the two which does what it does better
3.) Greninja - for being too anti-offensive
4.) Talonflame - for being too anti-offensive
5.) Unaware - for being too anti-offensive
As for me, I'm not buying 3-5 at all, but that's just right now and I'm open to good arguments. I included 3-5 simply because a few good players have mentioned them and I'm curious to see where people stand (I'm gonna go ahead and assume most people will laugh at 3-5).
1 and 2 are where I currently see the strongest arguments, as both hurt offense and defense AND are pretty unpredictable.
I've actually heard an amusingly mixed tale of stories for the current state of xy, in that some GREAT players (note current xy ou tour winners) are saying the meta is too anti offense atm, and other great players saying it is too anti-stall, so perhaps we need another thread discussing the actual state of the meta as I have direct conversations from great tier players saying the exact opposite...
I think banning Thundurus-I at this stage of the metagame is frankly pretty silly. It's nowhere near as good as it was pre-Aegislash ban, and for a lot of reasons. To start off, while usage is not always a good indicator of brokenness or viability, dropping usage usually indicates that the Pokemon has gotten worse. And Thundurus's usage has dropped in a drastic way. It was #1 in usage for the last SPL and WCOP, in the Aegislash metagame. It's no wonder why, as it stopped all the sweepers and in general thrived on the offensive nature of the metagame with its awesome Speed, power, versatility, and that brutal Prankster TWave. Fast forward to now, where its current tour usage is #25 with approximately one-fourth of the #1, Latios's, usage. It isn't even the most-used Electric-type, which would be Magnezone. The reasons for this are many of the reasons that it isn't broken.
Sure, Thundurus is fast and strong, but it's still no problem for many Pokemon in the tier. Mixed defensive Clefable, Choice Scarf Landorus-T on every other team, Mega Manectric seeing more usage, AV Azumarill being by far the dominant set, WoW Charizard X everywhere, Latis on practically every team, Scarf Keldeo, Mew being so incredible, Jolly Talonflame, Scarf Mag; I could write an essay on the trends that have caused a negative downturn for Thundurus. The other thing is that with Scarf Landorus-T again being so good, many teams already have their all-encompassing revenge killer so the Prankster TWave is less useful, not to mention these Mega sweepers it was meant to beat are less common than the heavy hitting Megas that got better with Aegi/Maw bans, your Gards/Heras/Pinsirs being the main ones I'm talking about.
In summary: with Thundurus's lowered effectiveness and usefulness due to various shifts after the Aegislash and Mawile bans, it is no longer anywhere near banworthy.
Sure, Thundurus is fast and strong, but it's still no problem for many Pokemon in the tier. Mixed defensive Clefable, Choice Scarf Landorus-T on every other team, Mega Manectric seeing more usage, AV Azumarill being by far the dominant set, WoW Charizard X everywhere, Latis on practically every team, Scarf Keldeo, Mew being so incredible, Jolly Talonflame, Scarf Mag; I could write an essay on the trends that have caused a negative downturn for Thundurus. The other thing is that with Scarf Landorus-T again being so good, many teams already have their all-encompassing revenge killer so the Prankster TWave is less useful, not to mention these Mega sweepers it was meant to beat are less common than the heavy hitting Megas that got better with Aegi/Maw bans, your Gards/Heras/Pinsirs being the main ones I'm talking about.
In summary: with Thundurus's lowered effectiveness and usefulness due to various shifts after the Aegislash and Mawile bans, it is no longer anywhere near banworthy.
If not knowing which Mega Evolution you're facing before Charizard Mega Evolves is the big problem here, why not just have a rule stating that your Charizard must have -X or -Y at the end of its name? Or was this idea brought up before and rejected?
Hi. Despite some recent success, I'm still not a very well-known player, so this may not count as much, but in my opinion the metagame is doing just fine. While Pokémon such as Greninja, Mega Charizard X, Mega Gardevoir, Clefable and Keldeo are very very good, I don't think any of them deserve a suspect test just yet. All of them have a number of checks and counters within OU, and have flaws that prevent them from being broken. Greninja is probably the closest to being broken because of its amazing ability to mess with HO, but then again, it has exploitable flaws.
The metagame is currently focused on Bulky Offense, Mega Pinsir + Magnezone "Italian" Offense, Balance and Stall. As it has been stated previously on this thread, the Metagame is not THAT reliant on team matchup, which is great. The most matchup-reliant playstyle is Stall, but there is nothing that can be done about it anyway. I'd just leave everything as it is, although taking a closer look at Greninja is a real possibility. I'd just wait until ORAS, though. It's just a month from now and some things will definitely change.
Sorry for my kael'ish english on this post, btw.
The metagame is currently focused on Bulky Offense, Mega Pinsir + Magnezone "Italian" Offense, Balance and Stall. As it has been stated previously on this thread, the Metagame is not THAT reliant on team matchup, which is great. The most matchup-reliant playstyle is Stall, but there is nothing that can be done about it anyway. I'd just leave everything as it is, although taking a closer look at Greninja is a real possibility. I'd just wait until ORAS, though. It's just a month from now and some things will definitely change.
Sorry for my kael'ish english on this post, btw.
ya greninja is probably the closest thing to a suspect right now imo, thundurus and zardx i think are widely agreed to be manageable and not overpowering in the slightest. greninja is ridiculously anti-offensive and can work against stall with spikes against chansey switch-ins. the thing is i doubt that that's the best pokemon in the metagame (latios is imo), but i don't think that greninja is the most suspect-worthy in my opinion and from what i've heard from many top players.
The thought of having a potential (emphasis on potential) suspect test on Greninja makes me cringe. Yes, he's amazing against offense; I think we can all agree on that. But put him in front of Balance or BO, and suddenly he's not as amazing anymore. I mean, the whole argument of "his coverage is too great and too powerful and nothing outside of Scarfers outspeed him" has some merit to it, but is a hyperbole at best.
Yes, he's fast. Yes, he has great coverage. Yes, his coverage is strong thanks to STAB everything and LO. No, he's not the end all be all for offense. For one, Greninja has coverage issues. Aside from the mandatory Hydro Pump and Ice Beam (mandatory as in like 90+% of the time he's running these moves on the upper ladder (ice beam is at 94%, Hydro at 74%)), Greninja has two moveslots to work with. Now, I hate to bring in the 4MSS into the mix because I always feel its a flawed argument, but it kind of applies here. Out of his two remaining moveslots, Greninja has to choose between Extrasensory, Grass Knot / HP Grass, HP Fire, Dark Pulse, or Spikes. Whichever coverage move he goes for leaves him walled by various threats. Don't have HP Fire? Scizor and Ferro say hi. HP Grass / GK? Azumarill would like to have a word with you. Extrasensory (which isn't as common as it used to be as of late)? Keldeo and Mega Venu don't gaf. And if he uses Spikes then you can double the amount of checks. The point is that Greninja has to pick and choose what he wants to hit, and what walls him.
Now, at this point I realize that the whole teammates thing comes into play here when forgoing certain coverage options, but that honestly applies to practically every mon ever. Latios can't take ScarfTar. Pinsir can't take Rotom W without boosts and a lot of prior damage. Excadrill can't take any mon immune to EQ that doesn't gaf about Iron Head. The list goes on and on. I listed all offensive mons, and all top tier offensive mons at that. Every mon has its checks, and Greninja is no exception. I also want to address his speed. I know its fast. Really fast. Very few things can outspeed him without a Scarf or a Boost. However, he's also pretty frail. He's wrecked by pretty much every priority move in the game. And while Protean can help with this to an extent, it can also be severely detrimental, such as the classic example of Scizor revenging an Ice Type Frog. Additionally, with the rise of Scarf Lando and Mega Mane, Greninja is finding himself forced out often whenever they switch into him when he uses the wrong move. There have been countless times when I've witnessed a Greninja being forced out after using something like Grass Knot when a Scarf Lando comes in. Pivot switches are often used against a plethora of mons, and Greninja is a prime example of this.
It's also worth mentioning that anything that can live his hits hit him back extremely hard, even with neutral hits. This is what makes him such a liability against more bulky team archetypes. Things like Clefable and bulky Latias can easily KO him back after taking a hit. Ik that Clef can switch in when running SpDef and that Latias can't, but there are things called pivot switches and these are used extensively on balance teams, and using these will allow you to get Latias in. It's also easy to wear him down with his own LO using Pivot switches, which isn't the strongest argument, but it has been done. Greninja loses a lot of viability against bulky teams and usually has to take a back seat until everything has been substantially weakened.
I've also seen some arguments saying that he restricts team building. Okay. Don't bitch when your team doesn't have anything for Pinsir and he 6-0s you. Or Keldeo. SD Bisharp. SR Exca, Azu. CM Clef. etc. The list goes on and on. Greninja doesn't restricted team building any more than Keldeo does. That argument is flawed in many instances, and this is one of them. This is a rule, and not an exception. Looking back on previous suspects, this is clearly shown. Kanga was banned because only Rocky Helmet mons could handle him consistently. Luke was banned because it was a 50-50 as to what set he was running. Gengar was because lolCountering him. Mawile only had Heatran and mega Venu that could actually stomach her hits. All those mons had either only one or two safe switch ins, or simply mons that weren't even viable to begin with. Greninja can't do anything to Mixed Def Clef. Or Chansey (yeah he gets spikes up (if he's even running that set) but Seismic Toss 3HKOes regardless). Or a plethora of other mons when he's not running the right coverage move. Yes he chooses his checks, but those checks are able to check him well. Don't believe me? Have fun trying to kill Mega Venu when Extrasensory isn't one of your available options. Even then there are universal checks that don't gaf about any of his moves such as AV Kyubes (which is really fkin good btw), AV Raikou, or AV Azu. Yeah they need AV, but AV also happens to be a really good option on them in general.
It may sound like I'm bashing Greninja, but I'm not (and he's fkin amazing and the best starter right after Blaziken). I'm simply stating why he's not suspect worthy. HO May have trouble with him, but even then they carry at least a check to two to not be fucked over by him, which is something they should carry regardless. A HO team that doesn't have a ninja check isn't a good HO team. Yes that check May be killed before ninja goes down, which allows him to clean up, but this is true for any offensive mon in the game. It's just like why Magnet Pull or Shadow Tag shouldn't be suspected. They perform well against certain teams and aren't as useful against others (I've always been against them being suspected, even if it wasn't clear in my previous posts). Mons should only be suspected if they're broken beyond a reasonable doubt against multiple team archetypes (looking at you, Aegis haters), and Greninja clearly doesn't fit that criteria. He's annoying, but not broken.
Yes, he's fast. Yes, he has great coverage. Yes, his coverage is strong thanks to STAB everything and LO. No, he's not the end all be all for offense. For one, Greninja has coverage issues. Aside from the mandatory Hydro Pump and Ice Beam (mandatory as in like 90+% of the time he's running these moves on the upper ladder (ice beam is at 94%, Hydro at 74%)), Greninja has two moveslots to work with. Now, I hate to bring in the 4MSS into the mix because I always feel its a flawed argument, but it kind of applies here. Out of his two remaining moveslots, Greninja has to choose between Extrasensory, Grass Knot / HP Grass, HP Fire, Dark Pulse, or Spikes. Whichever coverage move he goes for leaves him walled by various threats. Don't have HP Fire? Scizor and Ferro say hi. HP Grass / GK? Azumarill would like to have a word with you. Extrasensory (which isn't as common as it used to be as of late)? Keldeo and Mega Venu don't gaf. And if he uses Spikes then you can double the amount of checks. The point is that Greninja has to pick and choose what he wants to hit, and what walls him.
Now, at this point I realize that the whole teammates thing comes into play here when forgoing certain coverage options, but that honestly applies to practically every mon ever. Latios can't take ScarfTar. Pinsir can't take Rotom W without boosts and a lot of prior damage. Excadrill can't take any mon immune to EQ that doesn't gaf about Iron Head. The list goes on and on. I listed all offensive mons, and all top tier offensive mons at that. Every mon has its checks, and Greninja is no exception. I also want to address his speed. I know its fast. Really fast. Very few things can outspeed him without a Scarf or a Boost. However, he's also pretty frail. He's wrecked by pretty much every priority move in the game. And while Protean can help with this to an extent, it can also be severely detrimental, such as the classic example of Scizor revenging an Ice Type Frog. Additionally, with the rise of Scarf Lando and Mega Mane, Greninja is finding himself forced out often whenever they switch into him when he uses the wrong move. There have been countless times when I've witnessed a Greninja being forced out after using something like Grass Knot when a Scarf Lando comes in. Pivot switches are often used against a plethora of mons, and Greninja is a prime example of this.
It's also worth mentioning that anything that can live his hits hit him back extremely hard, even with neutral hits. This is what makes him such a liability against more bulky team archetypes. Things like Clefable and bulky Latias can easily KO him back after taking a hit. Ik that Clef can switch in when running SpDef and that Latias can't, but there are things called pivot switches and these are used extensively on balance teams, and using these will allow you to get Latias in. It's also easy to wear him down with his own LO using Pivot switches, which isn't the strongest argument, but it has been done. Greninja loses a lot of viability against bulky teams and usually has to take a back seat until everything has been substantially weakened.
I've also seen some arguments saying that he restricts team building. Okay. Don't bitch when your team doesn't have anything for Pinsir and he 6-0s you. Or Keldeo. SD Bisharp. SR Exca, Azu. CM Clef. etc. The list goes on and on. Greninja doesn't restricted team building any more than Keldeo does. That argument is flawed in many instances, and this is one of them. This is a rule, and not an exception. Looking back on previous suspects, this is clearly shown. Kanga was banned because only Rocky Helmet mons could handle him consistently. Luke was banned because it was a 50-50 as to what set he was running. Gengar was because lolCountering him. Mawile only had Heatran and mega Venu that could actually stomach her hits. All those mons had either only one or two safe switch ins, or simply mons that weren't even viable to begin with. Greninja can't do anything to Mixed Def Clef. Or Chansey (yeah he gets spikes up (if he's even running that set) but Seismic Toss 3HKOes regardless). Or a plethora of other mons when he's not running the right coverage move. Yes he chooses his checks, but those checks are able to check him well. Don't believe me? Have fun trying to kill Mega Venu when Extrasensory isn't one of your available options. Even then there are universal checks that don't gaf about any of his moves such as AV Kyubes (which is really fkin good btw), AV Raikou, or AV Azu. Yeah they need AV, but AV also happens to be a really good option on them in general.
It may sound like I'm bashing Greninja, but I'm not (and he's fkin amazing and the best starter right after Blaziken). I'm simply stating why he's not suspect worthy. HO May have trouble with him, but even then they carry at least a check to two to not be fucked over by him, which is something they should carry regardless. A HO team that doesn't have a ninja check isn't a good HO team. Yes that check May be killed before ninja goes down, which allows him to clean up, but this is true for any offensive mon in the game. It's just like why Magnet Pull or Shadow Tag shouldn't be suspected. They perform well against certain teams and aren't as useful against others (I've always been against them being suspected, even if it wasn't clear in my previous posts). Mons should only be suspected if they're broken beyond a reasonable doubt against multiple team archetypes (looking at you, Aegis haters), and Greninja clearly doesn't fit that criteria. He's annoying, but not broken.
To add to Clone's great post, i feel that people haven't really tried to adapt to Greninja's spike in usage recently when using offensive teams. Assault Vest Kyurem-B and SpD Empoleon are both very decent choices on non-HO offensive teams and both can do plenty of stuff really well outside of dealing with Greninja, but don't see much use, in addition to other great checks and counters that offensive teams can run, such as SR Clefable, AV Azumarill, and Scarf Keldeo. There are many options to deal with Greninja no matter what kind of playstyle you are running, which, added with the fact that it always carries Life Orb (making it easy to wear down), is frail as fuck, and is easily revenge killed, mean that it's not a suspect-worthy Pokemon, just a Pokemon able to take advantage of all those offensive teams that are everywhere.
And btw, the Shadow Tag suspecting proposal was under the criteria of being uncompetitive, not overpowered, so saying that Gothitelle doesn't pack any outlandish qualities is kinda missing the point.
And btw, the Shadow Tag suspecting proposal was under the criteria of being uncompetitive, not overpowered, so saying that Gothitelle doesn't pack any outlandish qualities is kinda missing the point.
If I were to choose who to suspect next, I'd definitely go for Greninja.
I think he's one of the biggest constraint right now in the metagame. Not only it's fast, but it has pretty nice coverage options, and bar some very specific AV users, or strong special walls like Clefable, Greninja has tools to play around many of its common checks (like the rise of Dark Pulse Greninja to deal with Mew).
If it was only that, I'd say "whatever, don't suspect it", but now that people are also using the Spike set, it makes Greninja even harder to deal with. Say, that your opponent brings Greninja in early, you switch in your Clefable as he sets up a layer of Spikes or attack to force you to Softboil in order to set up a layer of Spikes anyway. Even in this situation where you had a perfect counter in Calm Clefable, he takes something from you. On top of that, people start to realise how hard it really is to Defog, and you usually end up losing a pokemon to defog against an offensive team, which totally serves their purpose.
This Defog point is crucial to understand. By building a team not needing Defog, here are the advantages :
- a free moveslot, and it is a big deal, just think about Lati@s
- more building freedom, you don't have to play an Excadrill or a Lati@s basically
- you have nothing to lose by putting SR up : say that you're a team with Defog, you manage to bring your Heatran safely on a Scizor and you're thinking "FREE SR BITCH", well, now, your opponent switches in Garchomp on your SR turn and puts SR as you're switching out. Now you're thinking "okay.. I didn't gain much from that". These teams HAVE NOTHING to lose here, they automatically protect themselves from SR with this mechanism because putting SR up for a team relying on Defog, usually means that you created a SR opportunity for the Defogless team too.
- The second defensive mechanism for Defogless teams vs Defog teams is even more obvious, in the case where Defogless teams put SR first : you usually don't put SR when you plan to Defog later.
- You can punish the Defog turn, and be in a stronger position vs someone who is trying to switch in their Defogger safely
A Defogless team, can try to abuse the "punish" dimension by being momentum based, or more balanced, to benefit more from the defensive mechanism vs SR residual damage and the building freedom to build up a better synergy.
But why am I explaining that ? What's the link with Greninja. Here it is :
Let's assume we got a Defogless team, momentum based, with Spike Greninja (a really good choice given how easy it is to keep the momentum with Greninja), let's see how the match-ups go :
- Obviously Defog teams are way behind here, you're built to abuse their relative weakness to SR as I explained previously.
- The matchup vs Defogless balanced, or more defensive teams is where Spike Greninja shines. These teams have NO WAY to get rid of the entry hazards you set-up, plus they're usually really Spike weak due to the fact that the pokemons are not weak to SR. Get that free turn, set-up a layer of Spikes, and notice how these teams are instantly looking in danger.
- Vs the other offensive Defogless teams.. well everybody knows how Greninja is useful against them.
I'm not saying that it's 100% loss right, I'm just talking about the matchups. These Defogless momentum based teams always have a specific weakness to something, but I want to stress how much inherent momentum they carry, and this, all thanks to Greninja. Not a lot of pokemons can force switches like that, have access to Spikes, and still have great stats paired with the ability to virtually shit on every Defogger. Maybe Scolipede and Diggersby can claim this too, but Scolipede is defnitely not the same offensive beast (plus allows Defog a lot), and Diggersby is slow (and allows Skarmory to Defog).
Greninja is holding a really nice niche right now, it fares really well with the dominant playstyle, and against it. And out of that, as I said, it's a real pain to build with it given the possible coverage, and given how viable AV users are rare and easy to weaken.
I'm not saying that I want it to be banned, but if you're looking for a suspect guinea pig, here's one.
PS : Aldaron if you were wondering why Char-Ms, Thundurus, Pinsir etc are not looking like suspect worthy anymore, it's basically because of that Defogless vs Defog trend, these pokemons instantly put a lot of pressure on your teambuilding, and on your decision making right now that the metagame adapted to their Defog dependency.
I think he's one of the biggest constraint right now in the metagame. Not only it's fast, but it has pretty nice coverage options, and bar some very specific AV users, or strong special walls like Clefable, Greninja has tools to play around many of its common checks (like the rise of Dark Pulse Greninja to deal with Mew).
If it was only that, I'd say "whatever, don't suspect it", but now that people are also using the Spike set, it makes Greninja even harder to deal with. Say, that your opponent brings Greninja in early, you switch in your Clefable as he sets up a layer of Spikes or attack to force you to Softboil in order to set up a layer of Spikes anyway. Even in this situation where you had a perfect counter in Calm Clefable, he takes something from you. On top of that, people start to realise how hard it really is to Defog, and you usually end up losing a pokemon to defog against an offensive team, which totally serves their purpose.
This Defog point is crucial to understand. By building a team not needing Defog, here are the advantages :
- a free moveslot, and it is a big deal, just think about Lati@s
- more building freedom, you don't have to play an Excadrill or a Lati@s basically
- you have nothing to lose by putting SR up : say that you're a team with Defog, you manage to bring your Heatran safely on a Scizor and you're thinking "FREE SR BITCH", well, now, your opponent switches in Garchomp on your SR turn and puts SR as you're switching out. Now you're thinking "okay.. I didn't gain much from that". These teams HAVE NOTHING to lose here, they automatically protect themselves from SR with this mechanism because putting SR up for a team relying on Defog, usually means that you created a SR opportunity for the Defogless team too.
- The second defensive mechanism for Defogless teams vs Defog teams is even more obvious, in the case where Defogless teams put SR first : you usually don't put SR when you plan to Defog later.
- You can punish the Defog turn, and be in a stronger position vs someone who is trying to switch in their Defogger safely
A Defogless team, can try to abuse the "punish" dimension by being momentum based, or more balanced, to benefit more from the defensive mechanism vs SR residual damage and the building freedom to build up a better synergy.
But why am I explaining that ? What's the link with Greninja. Here it is :
Let's assume we got a Defogless team, momentum based, with Spike Greninja (a really good choice given how easy it is to keep the momentum with Greninja), let's see how the match-ups go :
- Obviously Defog teams are way behind here, you're built to abuse their relative weakness to SR as I explained previously.
- The matchup vs Defogless balanced, or more defensive teams is where Spike Greninja shines. These teams have NO WAY to get rid of the entry hazards you set-up, plus they're usually really Spike weak due to the fact that the pokemons are not weak to SR. Get that free turn, set-up a layer of Spikes, and notice how these teams are instantly looking in danger.
- Vs the other offensive Defogless teams.. well everybody knows how Greninja is useful against them.
I'm not saying that it's 100% loss right, I'm just talking about the matchups. These Defogless momentum based teams always have a specific weakness to something, but I want to stress how much inherent momentum they carry, and this, all thanks to Greninja. Not a lot of pokemons can force switches like that, have access to Spikes, and still have great stats paired with the ability to virtually shit on every Defogger. Maybe Scolipede and Diggersby can claim this too, but Scolipede is defnitely not the same offensive beast (plus allows Defog a lot), and Diggersby is slow (and allows Skarmory to Defog).
Greninja is holding a really nice niche right now, it fares really well with the dominant playstyle, and against it. And out of that, as I said, it's a real pain to build with it given the possible coverage, and given how viable AV users are rare and easy to weaken.
I'm not saying that I want it to be banned, but if you're looking for a suspect guinea pig, here's one.
PS : Aldaron if you were wondering why Char-Ms, Thundurus, Pinsir etc are not looking like suspect worthy anymore, it's basically because of that Defogless vs Defog trend, these pokemons instantly put a lot of pressure on your teambuilding, and on your decision making right now that the metagame adapted to their Defog dependency.
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The entire issue that you've (correctly) isolated in the above post is a result of Stealth Rock providing free momentum. The core of the issue is the hazard; until we take a look at that, there will always be fast and strong Pokemon that can take advantage of it. Some (Greninja) might be better at that than others, but the issue will still exist.
The thought of a Greninja suspect is absurd. While I understand it has incredible sweeping potential, XY has gifted us with the based item Assault Vest. Standard Greninja isn't doing squat vs any team with Chansey even with three layers of Spikes up and Stealth Rocks. I understand there are not many consistent counters (Hidden Power [Fire] kills Ferrothorn) but plenty of stuff can come in on it and kill it. It is relatively frail and after Rocks + LO recoil its at 78% which puts it at range for most priority attacks. Finally, AV Azumarill especially, but AV Raikou and less commonly AV Kyurem-B deal with it fine.
Honestly, I see many similarities to Deoxys-S but it doesnt have as much unpredictability, and I didnt want Deo-S banned either because Aegislash and Mega Mawile walled it ... But I'd definitely support the ban now. Another difference is that Deo-S might be weaker but can outspeed things like +1 Mega TTar and Mega Gyarados which was absurd. A few decent switches to get in a priority user on Greninja easily disposes of it, and unlike Deo-S it really cannot do much to stall.
The metagame is balanced right now. Thundurus-I is fine, Charizard-X isnt the end of the world... Mostly cause of Thundurus
Honestly, I see many similarities to Deoxys-S but it doesnt have as much unpredictability, and I didnt want Deo-S banned either because Aegislash and Mega Mawile walled it ... But I'd definitely support the ban now. Another difference is that Deo-S might be weaker but can outspeed things like +1 Mega TTar and Mega Gyarados which was absurd. A few decent switches to get in a priority user on Greninja easily disposes of it, and unlike Deo-S it really cannot do much to stall.
The metagame is balanced right now. Thundurus-I is fine, Charizard-X isnt the end of the world... Mostly cause of Thundurus
I need to bring up baton pass guys, I mean jesus christ how is this still a problem, It plagues the OU room tournaments it makes the ladder a joke and the only way it can be stopped is through obscure counters. I dont know what we should do maybe ban smeargle, or just ban baton pass altogether but the community voted that baton pass was too strong and we did virtually nothing to limit it. I understand most of you guys are talking about bans in a more competitive aspect like in major tourneys, but that is a point to get rid of it. I mean I dont even know what else to say this problem shouldve have been fixed 3 months ago or however long ago we tested it, Ive been gone for like 2 months on the ladder and come back only to get completely shit on by baton pass like 3 out of 10 games, there is nothing that can stop it aside from things that should not be forced to be on all teams. I know this is just a butthurt angry rant but we need to do something about it if people ever want to take the OU ladder seriously, and I know thats the whole point of the ladder tourney. So yeah if anyone has just ONE reason why it shouldnt be banned I am all ears.
On the greninja note, I would support a suspect as it is starting to show similiar traits to Deo-s, by that I mean it is filling the role that Deo-s had that made HO teams such a pain to deal with. The combination of being an incredible Special attacker with insane coverage and the spikes problem now is enough to warrant a suspect, the posts above outline it nicely.
On the greninja note, I would support a suspect as it is starting to show similiar traits to Deo-s, by that I mean it is filling the role that Deo-s had that made HO teams such a pain to deal with. The combination of being an incredible Special attacker with insane coverage and the spikes problem now is enough to warrant a suspect, the posts above outline it nicely.
Chansey, Sylveon, maybe specially defensive Fable, a handful of AV users...that's pretty much it in terms of countering Greninja. Sure, there are a fair number of mons which have fewer counters, but none of these have the same ridiculous speed and perfect coverage as Greninja. On top of that, virtually every Ninja counter is either incredibly passive and does nothing to regain momentum, or is easily worn down (every AV user).
The Spikes set is what's really causing problems though. At the cost of some (admittedly valuable) coverage, Ninja becomes essentially uncounterable. Every switch-in either risks taking massive damage or giving a relatively cost-free layer of Spikes (again, because all its safe switches are passive or easy to get past with hazard support). It's just such a ridiculously effective momentum-grabber.
I'm not saying Ninja doesn't have serious problems, with LO recoil, hazard vulnerability, and zero bulk. But the rise of the Spikes set is making it a very serious threat to virtually every kind of team, and definitely worthy of a suspect in my opinion.
Oh yeah and Stealth Rock is definitely the biggest problem with the metagame but whatever. If we want to keep improving the metagame, SR has to go, but I can understand that such a massive step is never going to garner enough support.
You can also add Mega Venu, Ferro, Bulky Scizor, SpDef Mew, and SpDef Gyara to that list. Mega Venu doesn't gaf nowadays since Extrasensory variants are starting to become a dying breed. Ferro and Sciz don't gaf when HP Fire isn't present, which is becoming more common with the increased usage of Spikes. Mew is good as long as Ninja doesn't have Dark Pulse, which is something people still have yet to realize is a good option for ninja to run nowadays. Gyara doesn't gaf about anything ninja does. Also things like wisp Zard and mega mane check him quite reliably.
And of those mons you listed, only Chansey is truly passive. Both clef and Sylveon both have pretty decent offensive presence with Moonblast and hyper voice respectively. Both are capable of 2HKOing neutrally after rocks and LO, a common scenario. Chansey 3HKOes with toss, but Chansey is bad anyways.
As for the argument of the AV users being easily worn down, the same thing applies to ninja lol. You say so later that his bulk and reliance on LO wear him down to the point where anything faster such as Scarfers or priority users easily dispose of him, both of which are necessities on any decent balance and especially offensive teams. If you get to the point where your AV Azu / whatever is able to be taken out by ninja, then ninja should be at the point where he's in priority range or unable to switch into rocks again wihout dying to LO next turn. If that isn't the case, you've either been outplayed or played Azu terribly.
You said so yourself, spikes requires you to give up valuable coverage. Ninjas amount of checks effectively doubles when he runs spikes. I'm not sayin spikes is a bad set but he's easier to handle when you know 3/4 of his moves (hydro spikes and ice beam). And yeah, spikes is a massive fuck you to passive teams, but so is everything nowadays. Full stall is bad in this meta and ninja is only one of the many reasons why this is the case (cough mew taunt Talon cough). And saying ninja is uncounterable is nothing less of ignorant. He loses coverage. His amount of switch ins is basically doubled which basically DOUBLES his amoun of checks / counters. Spikes is scary but honestly this set is being overhyped because it strengthens his effect vs stall and balance but shrinks it against offense, which is his forte. And there's still plenty of things that don't mind spikes. Last I checked clef doesn't gaf about spikes. Yeah unaware is a thing but magic guard is still superior imo. Other things like the Latis don't care about them and can Defog them away. Obviously they can't come in on ninja but you're basically saying that ninja beats everything because spikes wears them down, which simply isn't true.
Like I previously said, spikes is less effective against offense, which is what Greninja was designed to take on. His role is to hit everything with STAB moves and clean late game when everything else is weakened. Spikes changes this by taking advantage of his counters which aren't even found on offense to begin with (Azu and Kyubes kill him regardless and they're the only ones found on offense). Spikes is obviously good but it's still not as scary as everyone is making it out to be. It's just like how when everyone started using SpDef Gliscor it got much better vs stall and some balance but lost effectiveness at walling hits from offense.
I will say this though, my view on Ninja will most likely change once Gunk Shot and Low Kick become available. But that's another post for another meta. For now, I'm still very much against this sudden surge of 'omg ninja is op ban pls idk how to innovate
Js but keeping some of the scariest mons out there in check through a move that every team has doesn't scream broken to me in the slightest bit.
Had a big post but whatever. Bullet points:
- Counters which have to immediately heal to switch in again without being 2HKO'd are pretty passive I would say. Pretty much every Ninja check falls into this category, besides, ironically, Chansey.
- Sure, Ninja will often have to sac itself to wear down something like AV Azu, but then the other team's also lost its check to Latios, Keldeo and whatever else. This is a problem common to all defensive strategies (that offense can stack mons to beat similar counters, whereas defense has to spread itself thin trying to cover everything relevant), but Greninja's ability to outspeed and OHKO the vast majority of the metagame gives it a lot of opportunities to break said counters.
- Spikes fucks with stall and balanced, which Ninja ordinarily struggles with, at the cost of increasing its pool of counters yep. What does this hurt it against? Usually not offense, unless they run AV Azu or offensive M-Venu while Ninja's lacking the appropriate coverage. Maybe against defensive teams carrying e.g. Ferrothorn, but remember, it takes them time to figure out your coverage moves, so they can't exploit the coverage issue immediately, whereas you can abuse Spikes from the get-go. Basically the advantages of Spikes far outweigh the cost at the moment.
- The whole "keeping scary mons in check" argument with regards to SR has been done to death. If keeping mons viable in OU is our target, then much better to ban the small handful which might be broken without SR and give the multitude of otherwise great Fire, Flying, Ice, Bug and what-have-you's a boost in useability. Suddenly the metagame doesn't largely revolve around getting the SR advantage, there's a lot more flexibility both in teambuilding and during matchplay, defensive playstyles get a boost in viability (you said it yourself, pure stall is useless right now) and so on. Sounds like a pretty positive change to me, or at least potentially so, which should merit SR some kind of suspect process.
Hai :3 As seen from my low post count, I'm new here. I would like to discuss the move Baton Pass and why I think it deserves to get a suspect.
Baton pass is the most stupid, and brainless strategy out there today. BP is extremely match up reliant, and if your team doesn't have anything to beat it, you auto lose right from the start. This isn't like anything else where if you dont necessarily have a counter to it, you can still beat it by playing well and not allowing it to set up or pressuring it everytime it comes in. Baton pass is different, you either lose or win right from team preview. BP takes no skill to use at all. People with no knowledge of the metagame can easily ladder up to 1800+ with the standard BP team if they dont get haxed. Smogon is supposed to be competitive, which means that the better player is supposed to win the majority of the time. Baton pass completely invalidates this because it allows bad players to beat good players. A good player who has a bad match up because he can't beat BP will automatically lose,simple as that. So why are we still allowing this bullshit?
I'm not saying that BP is unbeatable by any means whatsoever. I don't wanna suspect BP because its necessarily broken, I want it gone because its uncompetitive. It's literal cancer everytime you play it. Yeah, anyone can 6-0 BP by using shed shell amoongus, but who gives a shit? That doesn't make it any less competitive. It's a horrible strategy that lets shitty ass players beat good players, and we should not be promoting that as a community. UU has done a stupid move imo by banning geomancy because the smeargle + espeon combo was too powerful for the tier. In a similar vein, venomoth is banned from UU because of its "broke quiverpassing bullshit." UU didn't have to ban geomancy; they could've put a blanket ban on the move baton pass and have that shit all over with. If UU isn't allowing BP why should we? It's still cancer and uncompetitive BS no matter what tier its in.
For all these reasons, I would like to support a blanket ban on the move baton pass. That's what we shouldve done right from the start, but we didn't. Instead we did a complex ban, and where did that lead us? Nowhere. We soon arrived to the conclusion that BP is still broken, and did yet another complex ban. And look where that leaves us now. Fuck all the complex ban BS, just ban the move. For example, if you ban geomancy, people will still figure out ways how to abuse the shitty strategy that is BP. Scoli + CM espeon will still be cancer to face, or people will use other shit like venomoth + espeon, which is why a complex ban wont suffice. Just suspect the move please. Honestly, theres no lateral damage involved anyway except for BP celebi, but who gives a shit? If we had a blanket ban on the move Swagger than Baton Pass should be banned in its entirety as well.
And before you guys go, "oh, no tour players use BP and ladder is shit anyway so idgaf about BP", something doesn't have to be common in order for it to be banned. In gen 4, wobbuffet was barely used at all (it was like #50 in usage), but after user: imperfectluck got all 5 of his alts in the top 5 of the ladder, wobb was deemed too uncompetitive for OU, and thus it was banned. Usage does not indicate brokenness. Another thing, the Official Ladder Tourney was created to restore the prestige of the ladder and to promote overall ladder quality. When two (im sure there's a little more than 2 but im not completely sure) of the people who qualified already got to the top 8 spot, how in the hell is that "promoting overall ladder quality"? If anything, it shows you how much ladder is a joke because you don't need to be good at the game or have any knowledge of the metagame whatsoever, you can just abuse cancer strategies to get a high ranking. Baton pass is significantly lowering the overall quality of the ladder, and im sure its one of the reasons why many established players consider ladder a joke.
I'd like for you guys to imagine a scenario I'm sure for some is all too familiar. You're grinding on the ladder one day for the OLT, and get to lets say, 1940, high enough for you to secure the #6 spot, so you stop for the night. Next day, you decide to just play one game so you don't decay and lose points. You're matched up with some no name player using a BP team, and an instant feeling of dread fills you as you realize you have a bad matchup and will probably lose unless you get super lucky. You play as well as you can, but the combination of screens, memento, and tailwind support prove to be too much for you as now you cannot prevent smeargle from setting up circles around you. Seconds later, espeon sweeps your team, and your rating drops 32 points, into the 1900s. Suddenly, you find yourself at #10, missing the cutoff for OLT playoffs. And all this because some shitty player thought it'd be funny to troll the ladder with a BP team.
I'm sure a lot of you guys have experienced this. I know Valentine, a very good player, was something like 21-0 on the ladder, and then his first loss was to a BP team. I'm positive that many other good players have experienced this as well. It's stupid why its still allowed, and we have nothing to lose from just outright banning the move.
As a final point, I know many of you are probably thinking "Baton pass wasnt a problem for earlier gens so i dont see why we should ban it now". Fact is, baton pass WAS a problem in earlier gens. Its just as match up dependent, just as skill less and brain dead to use, just as cancer, just as uncompetitive, and anybody who used it was immediately seen as a joke. So why is it only addressed this gen? It's because a lot of new players are using it and spamming the ladder with it. They saw some "ladder god" (i really don't wanna say that ladderers are bad, but when you're ranked high with no knowledge of the metagame, theres a problem) peak #1 with it for numerous months and thought, "oh hey, i could totally copy this guy's team and peak #1 too!" because thats what new players do: they steal teams from other people and try to copy them. And in doing so, spamming the ladder with BP has made laddering much less interesting for many individuals.
Suspect baton pass pls, thnx n_n
Baton pass is the most stupid, and brainless strategy out there today. BP is extremely match up reliant, and if your team doesn't have anything to beat it, you auto lose right from the start. This isn't like anything else where if you dont necessarily have a counter to it, you can still beat it by playing well and not allowing it to set up or pressuring it everytime it comes in. Baton pass is different, you either lose or win right from team preview. BP takes no skill to use at all. People with no knowledge of the metagame can easily ladder up to 1800+ with the standard BP team if they dont get haxed. Smogon is supposed to be competitive, which means that the better player is supposed to win the majority of the time. Baton pass completely invalidates this because it allows bad players to beat good players. A good player who has a bad match up because he can't beat BP will automatically lose,simple as that. So why are we still allowing this bullshit?
I'm not saying that BP is unbeatable by any means whatsoever. I don't wanna suspect BP because its necessarily broken, I want it gone because its uncompetitive. It's literal cancer everytime you play it. Yeah, anyone can 6-0 BP by using shed shell amoongus, but who gives a shit? That doesn't make it any less competitive. It's a horrible strategy that lets shitty ass players beat good players, and we should not be promoting that as a community. UU has done a stupid move imo by banning geomancy because the smeargle + espeon combo was too powerful for the tier. In a similar vein, venomoth is banned from UU because of its "broke quiverpassing bullshit." UU didn't have to ban geomancy; they could've put a blanket ban on the move baton pass and have that shit all over with. If UU isn't allowing BP why should we? It's still cancer and uncompetitive BS no matter what tier its in.
For all these reasons, I would like to support a blanket ban on the move baton pass. That's what we shouldve done right from the start, but we didn't. Instead we did a complex ban, and where did that lead us? Nowhere. We soon arrived to the conclusion that BP is still broken, and did yet another complex ban. And look where that leaves us now. Fuck all the complex ban BS, just ban the move. For example, if you ban geomancy, people will still figure out ways how to abuse the shitty strategy that is BP. Scoli + CM espeon will still be cancer to face, or people will use other shit like venomoth + espeon, which is why a complex ban wont suffice. Just suspect the move please. Honestly, theres no lateral damage involved anyway except for BP celebi, but who gives a shit? If we had a blanket ban on the move Swagger than Baton Pass should be banned in its entirety as well.
And before you guys go, "oh, no tour players use BP and ladder is shit anyway so idgaf about BP", something doesn't have to be common in order for it to be banned. In gen 4, wobbuffet was barely used at all (it was like #50 in usage), but after user: imperfectluck got all 5 of his alts in the top 5 of the ladder, wobb was deemed too uncompetitive for OU, and thus it was banned. Usage does not indicate brokenness. Another thing, the Official Ladder Tourney was created to restore the prestige of the ladder and to promote overall ladder quality. When two (im sure there's a little more than 2 but im not completely sure) of the people who qualified already got to the top 8 spot, how in the hell is that "promoting overall ladder quality"? If anything, it shows you how much ladder is a joke because you don't need to be good at the game or have any knowledge of the metagame whatsoever, you can just abuse cancer strategies to get a high ranking. Baton pass is significantly lowering the overall quality of the ladder, and im sure its one of the reasons why many established players consider ladder a joke.
I'd like for you guys to imagine a scenario I'm sure for some is all too familiar. You're grinding on the ladder one day for the OLT, and get to lets say, 1940, high enough for you to secure the #6 spot, so you stop for the night. Next day, you decide to just play one game so you don't decay and lose points. You're matched up with some no name player using a BP team, and an instant feeling of dread fills you as you realize you have a bad matchup and will probably lose unless you get super lucky. You play as well as you can, but the combination of screens, memento, and tailwind support prove to be too much for you as now you cannot prevent smeargle from setting up circles around you. Seconds later, espeon sweeps your team, and your rating drops 32 points, into the 1900s. Suddenly, you find yourself at #10, missing the cutoff for OLT playoffs. And all this because some shitty player thought it'd be funny to troll the ladder with a BP team.
I'm sure a lot of you guys have experienced this. I know Valentine, a very good player, was something like 21-0 on the ladder, and then his first loss was to a BP team. I'm positive that many other good players have experienced this as well. It's stupid why its still allowed, and we have nothing to lose from just outright banning the move.
As a final point, I know many of you are probably thinking "Baton pass wasnt a problem for earlier gens so i dont see why we should ban it now". Fact is, baton pass WAS a problem in earlier gens. Its just as match up dependent, just as skill less and brain dead to use, just as cancer, just as uncompetitive, and anybody who used it was immediately seen as a joke. So why is it only addressed this gen? It's because a lot of new players are using it and spamming the ladder with it. They saw some "ladder god" (i really don't wanna say that ladderers are bad, but when you're ranked high with no knowledge of the metagame, theres a problem) peak #1 with it for numerous months and thought, "oh hey, i could totally copy this guy's team and peak #1 too!" because thats what new players do: they steal teams from other people and try to copy them. And in doing so, spamming the ladder with BP has made laddering much less interesting for many individuals.
Suspect baton pass pls, thnx n_n
While I certainly believe that GeoPass is a problem, I can't get behind a full Baton Pass ban. Baton Pass has legitimate, competitive uses in the metagame that allow for various creative possibilities. For example, Celebi's drypass to avoid Pursuit and gain momentum as well as potentially pass Subs to get in a mon for free or Nasty Plot boosts. Destiny Device I know came up with a combination of Sub BP Medicham + Weavile to pressure the Psychics that are a pain for Medicham. Or other neat sets like SD Pass Mega Scizor. I do not believe we should eliminate these uses from the metagame. I believe that if we were to ban a combination such as Baton Pass + Stored Power which is really the problem then we would have a working solution to the current BP issue, which is 100% reliant on the ability of Stored Power Espeon/in ORAS the addition of Mega Latias to work.
Im glad WCAR gave such a good post because he said what I was thinking. In response to Jukain, we need to ban baton pass it is painfully clear and if we have to lose a few cool/creative strats that werent very relevant then so be it. Because now with mega slowbro in the mix he is probaby better to pass to than espeon because he cant get crit and only needs one cotton guard and one geomancy to easily dispose of teams. Megabro would not needs Stored power and this is exactly what we(pro ban baton pass people) are saying, if we keep doing complex bans then we will never solve the problem, I guarantee that if we did the bp+sp ban then it would just change to megabro or something even worse that I cant even comprehend at the moment. The time for complex bans is behind us, they didnt work, I am all for banning baton pass and getting on with the meta.
Maybe not the best example but this is the first game I played with this "team" and I think it helps the point thts trying to be made, this strat is gay and takes no skill. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178336739 ( took me a grand total of 2 minutes to create this team and get the game, I dare think what motivated people could accomplish)
Maybe not the best example but this is the first game I played with this "team" and I think it helps the point thts trying to be made, this strat is gay and takes no skill. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-178336739 ( took me a grand total of 2 minutes to create this team and get the game, I dare think what motivated people could accomplish)
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