Tournaments on PS in Little Cup!

[dsr95]

Do you think, to encourage diversity, we should have themed tournaments once and awhile? Like, mono-type or doubles or something like that.

That wouldn't be a bad idea for the diversity issue, I'm really looking forward to LC doubles and mono-type, from what I've played is very fun.

Now, between Candem and Briyella I got a little mixed up because Camden wants tours twice a week and Bri would say it's no problem to run 2 a day with different timezones. My thoughts on this stand on the number of users usually online when I wouldn't be here to open up a tournament, because I've basically seen and heard that the number of users online diminishes a lot, so this leads me to think that having 2 people for this wouldn't be such a success, however my opinion on this is mostly irrelevant because it can be done if people complain or if I'm wrong about the number of users thing. :P

If we're honestly getting that many people to play for tours, I don't see why there can't be a more strict enforcement of rules to make things run more smoothly. I think the vast majority of players I've seen enter appear competent and respectful enough to follow such simple guidelines, but we can tighten it up if we have to. I'd make it so that if a player goes inactive or becomes unreachable for so long in a time period when they are expected to participate, give their opponent the win. Make tours have a notice rather than a rule about it that states players who don't play their designated matches will automatically lose because the tour cannot be held up. It only makes it harder on everyone when it doesn't have to be.

If tours are becoming "boring" because "everything is the same" or "every team is the same", you might consider adding specific bans that apply only to certain tours. That will assure variety and make each tour more interesting and also raise the bar as far as challenge and competition goes, forcing players to step and think outside the box of just the obvious unbanned mons + Swirlix + Sturdy Juice Smashers. Just an idea, but I think it could be great to solve this if it is indeed a problem.

Yeah, to be honest I don't see many of the players being a problem with the rules but some people are joining and not reading up on the rules which is a bother at the moment of the tournament and they're asking me stuff and making everyone run slowly. However I also saw some very good users who did read the rules and followed each of them, which was a sign that THERE'S HOPE! xD
Also, I'm not saying they're getting boring because of the teams but actually the quantity we see the team... and I bet they use the same team because they don't really have another one they feel is worthy to use to compete or so, so I just thought it would be good to give 'em time to build more teams and stuff. But using a custom set of rules for the tournament doesn't seem bad and that should be taken into consideration by everyone :)

Still not sure why we have to enforce anything like this--tours are for fun. We'll incorporate them when we start up Mini Tournaments, but if someone isn't around to host or the interest isn't there at the time don't sweat it guys. It doesn't need to be a scheduled event. It's for fun.

This is simple to answer blar. I organized these tournaments to hype people up for Little Cup and to get new/non-lc players interested. It's slowly working which is great but I don't think we can all have a fun environment if the rules aren't followed or have a little bit of protocol. Also these tournaments are basically ways for newer players to see what's good and what's not in LC and to see how the experienced players play. And for the experienced players, it's a way to test their knowledge and play against other great players.
Oh! One last thing, nobody's mentioned using another server option yet. I personally think hosting them in another PS server would be better because nobody likes lag and it also speeds things up to allow for a faster and more enjoyable time :>

Fun fact: I couldn't really write the word environment so I had to use a corrector :(

 

[blarajan]

I'm just saying, I'm down with you taking them as seriously as you want to. If you want scheduled ones, that's chill. Just don't stress the "once a day, every day" thing if it doesn't work out.

 

[The Quasar]

I always organize mini-tour in Italian Channel and I know some problems as are described. It was easier for me, because languages is the same but I think something could be done to improve success of them. First of all, we could organize one for head, coordinating in turns. Also "forced" players to play with a determinate format, I think remove many rules problem, so like don't ask replays but only the result (on PM).

Finally schedule some days before, datetime Tournament and "spamming" in LC Channel, I thing could be useful to define as soon as possible the bracket. If anyone there's not in time, he lost simply for forfait and tourney goes on...

Naturally, I'm available for that.

I'm just saying, I'm down with you taking them as seriously as you want to. If you want scheduled ones, that's chill. Just don't stress the "once a day, every day" thing if it doesn't work out.

I agree. IMHO that's not mandatory.

 

[dcae]

I've never been a huge advocate of such large, very unofficial tours, but I did notice something, especially obcious in yesterday's tour: the double elimination system dragged the tpurnament out inexorably and resulted in the failure of the tournamnt. Thus, in addition to the "battle on a seperate server" idea that I already proppsed, I would prefer these tournaments to be single eliminarion without a losers bracket if the amount of players in the tournament is 8 or greater. I'm sure others will agree and see where I am xoming with this; double elimination jjust takes too long with the amount of players we have, and is honeslty pointless for such an unofficial tour.

 

[Camden]

It's not very difficult to properly manage a double-elimination tournament. All you have to do is make sure that matches are getting done as soon as they're available. I understand that's it's easier to organise it so everything starts on a round-by-round basis, but if a match is able to be done, just let them do it. As long as they send you the results, everything should be okay, right?

Also, the classic problem with single-elimination is getting screwed because of extremely bad luck in one particular game. One of the most common situations I've seen in these tours is someone getting sent to Loser's particularly early and then climbing their way back up to Grand Finals. With that in mind, if we do start doing single-elimination instead of double, we should probably start using seeding so we don't have a situation where the 2nd best player in the tour gets last place because they happened to play the best player in the first round. I can already reference something like this happening in one of the earlier tours, but they were ultimately saved because of the double-elimination bracket.

 

[macle]

just a couple things that may increase the speed of the tournaments..

* single elimination - the tournaments seem to slow down around the time round 1 of the losers bracket is posted. I understand that people want to battle more but you can just host a t
* dq if you leave the lc chan - you shouldn't leave anyway if you are in a tournament
* extreme lag / switching servers - if there is lag move to ori server, last tournament i lagged so hard that it took 25 minutes for me to write a message in the lobby


also i'd like each tournament to be announced in #littlecup on irc too, if you don't use irc, tell prem, dcae, me (if im on), electrolyte, kingmidas, etc to announce it.

Also i'd prefer just regular lc tourneys on ps. I will be hosting more special ones on the forums. Also having to make a team will slow down the tourneys.

 

[dsr95]

OK, so to make this more simple and stop discussing all this... I've decided on a few things.
Tournaments hosted by me will now be Single Elimination (do your best and try not to missclick or anything) and on the finals, we'll have a best 2 out of 3. (because nobody likes cheap shit on the finals)
After I got 8 tournament winners, I'll host a 8 player tournament with the tournament winners (if the tournament winners don't mind) and it will be double elimination so for now this tournament will have me, macle and demhaxman.
Leaving the Chat will result in a DQ as macle stated. No time out bullshit. If I see you leave and you don't notify a brb or something, you're done.
And if the main server is really laggy before starting the tournament, we'll move to another server (if that's fine with all of you)
Also, tournament sign-ups will be announced on PS, and IRC through #littlecup
Anything anyone wants to add?

 

[Rowan]

another thing dsr, is replays. I don't we should have to send them to you, nobody lies about winning. Replays should only be sent if there is a dispute, but no-one is that petty.

 

[snowcrow]

i think replays don't hurt it takes on min to get and send in if that

 

[dsr95]

another thing dsr, is replays. I don't we should have to send them to you, nobody lies about winning. Replays should only be sent if there is a dispute, but no-one is that petty.

I see your point but I'm someone that really values proof of things :/ Lack of trust, maybe but... If both players can agree on who won/lost then... I guess it's fine. Also I use the replays to update the score on challonge, so you can see who gets sweeped and shit xD
But... just save the replay and keep it somewhere... if I get at least 1 problem by lies on the tournaments, I will not have to ask for replays again. So for now, tell me if you won/lost by PM and I'll update it.

 

[kingmidas]

Well PBLC5 was pretty good. 16 users and single elim had good number of matches while also being fast
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebanklcbeta-69048790 Replay of me winning and ban gligar :P

 

[dcae]

I agree with Cork and I'd like to emphasize a new proposal: players can play on any server they choose, but playing on main during lag times is at their own risk. However, they must remain in the Little Cup room on PS during the duration of the tournament. Thus, we get around the lag issues that would occur when all of our players are moving onto another server and spreads out the games
edit: i also question the utility of keeping score of mons fainted in a game; i find it a rather pointless exercise.

 

[kingmidas]

I agree with Cork and I'd like to emphasize a new proposal: players can play on any server they choose, but playing on main during lag times is at their own risk. However, they must remain in the Little Cup room on PS during the duration of the tournament. Thus, we get around the lag issues that would occur when all of our players are moving onto another server and spreads out the games
edit: i also question the utility of keeping score of mons fainted in a game; i find it a rather pointless exercise.

Yeah I agree with this as well. The lag is just horrible in main its near impossible to play in a serious game without lag making an effect. Also keeping score requires you to watch the replay or ask both players which just adds onto the time it takes to get everything done.

 

[dsr95]

I never really watched any of the replays. I opened up the match and skipped to turn "70" which usually shows me the end of the match and I just take the score.

 

[PokeGyarados]

I never really watched any of the replays. I opened up the match and skipped to turn "70" which usually shows me the end of the match and I just take the score.

^ Scoring is funny because you get to see who got 6-0ed ;)

To be serious though: so far, I have participated in one of these tournaments. I really enjoyed it, and it's a really nice way to bring the LC community together (the UU room did this a lot too without the rules and stuff, it was really fun but it stopped soon after XY came out :/). I'd like to share my opinions on what has been discussed so far.

1. I'm leaning towards twice a week because it can be really tiring to host tourneys every day and even once every two days. Also, for the same reason that QuoteCS said - people won't be as hyped up for a daily tourney as twice a week. Really, although tourneys are great, they shouldn't be done THAT often.

2. I don't really care whether there are gonna be sign ups in a thread, or just sign ups when the tourney is going to be hosted. It doesn't really matter to me either way, and I'm sure many others agree.

3. Hosting a tournament with 8 tournament winners sounds like a fantastic idea :) For the same reasons dsr95 said.

4. Definitely hold different kinds of themed tournaments every once in a while. It will get people to build different kinds of fun teams. Apart from the obvious such as Monotype and Doubles, there could be more random fun ones such as Monocolour and Budgetmons (LC Edition!). Although they would be harder to enforce, as long as the rules are clear and people who don't comply are DQ'd, it should be fine.

5. Hosting it on different times gives other people in different timezones such as I a chance to compete. Definitely something to be considered.

6. The current set of rules are fine. Is it really THAT hard to type a sentence at the start of battle, stay in a chat and pay attention, click 'Share Replay', c/p it and report it to the host? They take little to no effort at all and it's really the participant's fault if they don't comply.

7. Other servers are fine if it is lagging a lot, just notify the users in the LC chat so they know.

8. Single Elimination > Double Elimination. Although it can be frustrating to be knocked out by a bit of hax or a misclick, it makes it go faster, it's less messy, and in the end of the day, there's always the next tournament!

9. Giving a player 5 mins to get back in the LC room if they leave should be enough, if they're not back in time they're DQ'd.

10. Announcing the tourney on #littlecup and the LC room (obviously) helps get more players in.

Anyways, some of these changes have already been done, but I would just like to enforce my opinion that they are good and also enforce other ideas talked about earlier. I'm pretty new to LC, but I really enjoy it and cutemons <3

EDIT: @dsr: YES LC Doubles ftw :D

 

[dsr95]

For the record, I love PokeGyarados <3 lol This guy knows what's up.
OK so... I'll try to get tournaments once or twice a week going depending on the number of users online in irc and the LC chat and... depending on the number of homework I get lol
I'll make a new Pastebin with a set of rules to clear shit up and post it some other time and I'll organize other themed tournaments every once in a whole. I think the next tournament will be LC DOUBLES! >.> No? Are you all okay with this? Leave your opinion on this.
And I will announce all this on irc as well y'know... its easier and more people join. brb's are obviously not DQ worthy as long as you let me (or the host) know. Because it shouldn't be fair to lose because you got called to do something important that takes like 2 minutes.
Like I said, I'll do Single Elimination and on the finals... a best 2 out of 3 :)
Also, I don't know if doing matches on another server has to do with the replay function but both players can agree to do their match on another server (nobody likes lag :() if they wish as long as they report the results to the host.
Also, for the next tournament, remember that all you must do is tell me "I won against (username)" OR "I lost against (username)" so that I can fill it in. No scoring or replays required. If this gives problems, I'll have to enforce the replay and scoring.
I dunno about the timezones but the tournaments should be done by someone who has driver of up in the LC chat because the /announce function is great to call attention towards tournament progress. (km is lazy af, no hype lol)
So yeah, those decisions are pretty much final unless there's a better reason for 1 of my rules to be dumb af. Again.. Leave your thoughts on this. :)

 

[snowcrow]

i think once or twice week works welll and i think replays work just fine im not saying plp in lc lie but it only takes one guy to lie and mess it all up and then we have a mess on are hands so we have to have replays

 

[chimp]

Plus, if we have replays we can watch them whenever.

Maybe we could record them with fraps or something so we can have some kind of archive. Unless the links are permanent, I don't remember.

 

[prem]

okay so i talked with the other room owners a little (macle and dcae in case people dont know) about what we all think about the whole tournament situation.

1. There is no limit to tournaments per week: i understand the tournaments can get tiring at some point, or the hype can drop quicker if we have a lot of tournaments too quickly, but there should be no reason to limit this. These are just unofficial fun tournaments, so if there are enough people for the tournament, and someone to host the tournament it should be held. Dsr specifically requested only 1 tournament on friday, which is fair and he can host that one every friday. point is there is nothing stopping people from having a tournament whenver they want as long as there are people to play.

2. Single Elimination: should be obvious it saves time and all that. i dont really expect anyone to find this one to be a problem.

3. Replays: honestly if you win the game, save the replay. you dont need to link it to the tournament host unless there is a dispute, but its good practice to just keep the logs until you have confirmed you have won. you can also just not leave your game, but i think keeping a replay is easier.

4. Other servers and Leaving the Sim: yeah apparently lag is really bad on ps main for most people. i basically do not have this issue, but apparently other people do so yeah you can play the tournament on any ps server if you want, just be sure to not leave the lc room. I dont think we decided an exact time, but im just going to say if you leave the room for 10 minutes for any reason that isnt explained before you leave you will probably be dqed. this mostly applies to the beginning or end of the rounds because otherwise no one is gonna notice. sorry i dont want to make anything sound so serious in the room because its supposed to be really laid back, but slowing down a tournament without letting people know is honestly really irritating.

5. no themed tournaments: yeah i know most people wont like this but honestly they just arent really logical or feasible. i was thinking about hosting one myself, then i realized i have to tell people in advance, let people teambuild, and HOPE that everyone who signs up will realize its that theme and doesnt mess up anything. the amount of work isnt justified in any of our opinions, and honestly the themed lc tournaments will be held on the forums in the tournaments section. when those come around we will definately make it obvious and ask everyone to sign up, but for these mini tournaments Me and the other room owners definately agree that they should just be standard LC. also being standard LC will help newer players get into it, instead of seeing something like LC Doubles (example not calling anything out) as their first experience to LC.


things like advertising the tournament should obviously be done in both the LC room and #littlecup and even #pokemon if you feel lke it lol.
timezones would be solved if someone besides Dsr would host tournaments. i can do it somedays if i think i see enough people online but yeah idk i have a very unplanned schedule always so i dont want to commit to anything like that.


i think i hit most bases from what ive seen in this thread, if anything else comes up bring it up with me either in this thread, on irc, or on ps. most of you know im really approachable and i wanna help you guys out so yeah!

 

[dsr95]

Regarding your #1, I don't think I ever stated I was going to be the only hosting so it doesn't really matter to me if someone else hosts them. I would prefer it being away from my time zone but the problem is the number of people online at that time, which depletes rather quickly.
Regarding #2, I think it would be good to go Single Elimination but having a 2 out of 3 at the Finals seems more fair to those competing there.
Regarding #3, Sounds good.
Regarding #4, Yep. Leaving the chat is forbidden without prior warning. "Hey man I gotta change computer so I'll be off for about 3 minutes while it turns on, can you not DQ me?" Fine by me.
Regarding #5, I'm actually feeling like doing doubles right now isn't precisely that good of an idea... I also heard from someone (I think dcae) that making LC Teams is already hard enough so that doing doubles tournaments would be too much. Then there's also the wait and honestly I don't think many people got my announcements on that other than Dinonadoop and maybe a few other peeps so I think I should put the Doubles on hold. :/
Tomorrow's tournament will be Single Elimination Pokebank LC with a 2 out of 3 match on the finals.

 

[PokeGyarados]

okay so i talked with the other room owners a little (macle and dcae in case people dont know) about what we all think about the whole tournament situation.

1. There is no limit to tournaments per week: i understand the tournaments can get tiring at some point, or the hype can drop quicker if we have a lot of tournaments too quickly, but there should be no reason to limit this. These are just unofficial fun tournaments, so if there are enough people for the tournament, and someone to host the tournament it should be held. Dsr specifically requested only 1 tournament on friday, which is fair and he can host that one every friday. point is there is nothing stopping people from having a tournament whenver they want as long as there are people to play.

2. Single Elimination: should be obvious it saves time and all that. i dont really expect anyone to find this one to be a problem.

3. Replays: honestly if you win the game, save the replay. you dont need to link it to the tournament host unless there is a dispute, but its good practice to just keep the logs until you have confirmed you have won. you can also just not leave your game, but i think keeping a replay is easier.

4. Other servers and Leaving the Sim: yeah apparently lag is really bad on ps main for most people. i basically do not have this issue, but apparently other people do so yeah you can host the tournament on any ps server if you want, just be sure to not leave the lc room. I dont think we decided an exact time, but im just going to say if you leave the room for 10 minutes for any reason that isnt explained before you leave you will probably be dqed. this mostly applies to the beginning or end of the rounds because otherwise no one is gonna notice. sorry i dont want to make anything sound so serious in the room because its supposed to be really laid back, but slowing down a tournament without letting people know is honestly really irritating.

5. no themed tournaments: yeah i know most people wont like this but honestly they just arent really logical or feasible. i was thinking about hosting one myself, then i realized i have to tell people in advance, let people teambuild, and HOPE that everyone who signs up will realize its that theme and doesnt mess up anything. the amount of work isnt justified in any of our opinions, and honestly the themed lc tournaments will be held on the forums in the tournaments section. when those come around we will definately make it obvious and ask everyone to sign up, but for these mini tournaments Me and the other room owners definately agree that they should just be standard LC. also being standard LC will help newer players get into it, instead of seeing something like LC Doubles (example not calling anything out) as their first experience to LC.


things like advertising the tournament should obviously be done in both the LC room and #littlecup and even #pokemon if you feel lke it lol.
timezones would be solved if someone besides Dsr would host tournaments. i can do it somedays if i think i see enough people online but yeah idk i have a very unplanned schedule always so i dont want to commit to anything like that.


i think i hit most bases from what ive seen in this thread, if anything else comes up bring it up with me either in this thread, on irc, or on ps. most of you know im really approachable and i wanna help you guys out so yeah!

I agree with everything except no themed tournaments. Yea, I know what you mean about all that stuff, but at least they make the tourneys less stale. It doesn't have to necessarily be outlandish ones, but at LEAST allow ones like LC Doubles and Monotype. I mean, they don't really have a special ruleset - in the case of LC Doubles, it's just Pokebank LC, but, well, doubles, and in the case of Monotype, it's basically just LC with only a single type per team allowed.

Yes, seeing these two metagames isn't the greatest thing in the world for newer players to see as their first experience, but come on - it's only once in a while and they can always see other tourneys to see what LC is like. After all, this is for the LC community, and the LC community probably don't want to see the same kind of tourney again and again - variety is always a good thing. As long as the rules are simple (easy to understand) and clear, there shouldn't be that many problems with people misunderstanding how the theme works.

Obviously it shouldn't be done THAT soon - XY LC is still a new and developing metagame. But later on, once it has settled a little, it should definitely be something considered and it really isn't that complicated to host a tournament of one of these two metagames.

Other than that, I understand and agree with the reasoning for the rest of your points above. This is just my opinion, so feel free to agree or disagree :)

 

[prem]

I agree with everything except no themed tournaments. Yea, I know what you mean about all that stuff, but at least they make the tourneys less stale. It doesn't have to necessarily be outlandish ones, but at LEAST allow ones like LC Doubles and Monotype. I mean, they don't really have a special ruleset - in the case of LC Doubles, it's just Pokebank LC, but, well, doubles, and in the case of Monotype, it's basically just LC with only a single type per team allowed.

Yes, seeing these two metagames isn't the greatest thing in the world for newer players to see as their first experience, but come on - it's only once in a while and they can always see other tourneys to see what LC is like. After all, this is for the LC community, and the LC community probably don't want to see the same kind of tourney again and again - variety is always a good thing. As long as the rules are simple (easy to understand) and clear, there shouldn't be that many problems with people misunderstanding how the theme works.

Obviously it shouldn't be done THAT soon - XY LC is still a new and developing metagame. But later on, once it has settled a little, it should definitely be something considered and it really isn't that complicated to host a tournament of one of these two metagames.

Other than that, I understand and agree with the reasoning for the rest of your points above. This is just my opinion, so feel free to agree or disagree :)

Yeah the tournaments can get stale, but i honestly think the best way to get around that would be innovation. i mean the tournaments should not get stale because you are playing standard, its just the teams and stuff. generally this would just mean you are playing too much pokemon or something because in our ideal world pokemon wont get stale. I guess maybe later we can try themed tournaments, but honestly until these are running smoothly with basically everyone liking how it works, I want it to stay standard. The problem is we have to make sure everyone who joins the tournament knows the rules of the specific metagame we are saying, which can lead to a whole lot of fuck ups


Also i think you are confused. Doubles metagames are extremely outlandish compared to singles where you have to use a lot of random moves that would never have been heard of in singles because of how doubles works. It is basically 100% a new metagame and is not something we should think of as a simple spin off lol. Monotype i agree its a spinoff, and honestly i can think of other ones later if i try, but thats for a later time

 

[dsr95]

prem using dem big words :v
but yeah i agree with prem. i'll do doubles once tours they get more popular and pokebank is out and whatnot :)

 

[prem]

actually im saying dont do doubles at all because its really really confusing compared to singles and do another themed tour if you want we can talk about it later tho

 

[blarajan]

I appreciate the effort you are putting in dsr, but I'm not recommending anything anymore; I'm telling you. Keep it simple, keep it fun, do not stress if it's everyday, make it single elimination with a bo3 finals, and keep it pokebank lc with no themes.

When this is better organized, advertised, and more popular, then we'll work on themes. Talk with macle about lc mini tours.