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Trying to get into the RU Metagame

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Bossk, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. Bossk


    Oct 20, 2009
    So this is a team I came up with in the hopes of utilizing a Dragon Dance Feraligatr. Unfortunately, Sheer Force hasn't been released, but Torrent still supplies some extra power when needed. I eventually used this set in a new RU team which is either a hit or a miss.

    Most of the time my battles on Showdown with this team are a hit or miss. Sometimes I get a 6-0 sweep with Dragon Dance, sometimes I get swept by a single Pokemon. This team needs a lot of work, but it's not without its uses so instead of scrapping it I brought it here for revision.


    Without further ado:

    Devastator @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    Nature: Relaxed
    EVs: 252 HP/96 Def/160 SpD
    • Gyro Ball
    • Earthquake
    • Stealth Rock
    • Roar

    This is my lead most of the time. With a reliable ability which lets me get off a Stealth Rock, he's a very sturdy wall as well. If I'm lucky I can usually do some phasing and weaken the opposing team by quite a bit, and Steelix usually hits decently as well. He can OHKO Aerodactyl without Focus Sash and I usually Gyro Ball first turn in fear of the taunt. Earthquake lets me hit incoming Fire-type Pokemon decently who are common switch-ins to my Steelix. He's a very straightforward Pokemon and I don't have much of a problem with him, although sometimes I really can't lead with him. His natural defense allows me to not have to invest much in it, with 160 SpD to take Psychic attacks better, not making him useless against every opposing special-based Pokemon.

    Finn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Regenerator
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 240 HP/24 Def/244 SpA
    • Spore
    • Giga Drain
    • Hidden Power {Ground}
    • Sludge Bomb

    My somewhat bulky special attacker. Using it's natural bulk, Giga Drain, and Regenerator this Pokemon should be able to survive for as long as it desires. It can take on a defensive Slowking's Psychic attack, and one of Gallade's Psycho Cuts (without a Swords Dance), allowing it remain a bit longer with Giga Drain. The EVs allow it some great bulk and power, along with the Life Orb and Modest to really maximize damage, allowing Giga Drain to heal as much as possible. Spore is a great utility move, forcing switches, putting fearsome foes to sleep, and just allowing me to take out a Pokemon if they stay in. Sludge Bomb is the main STAB move as it does the most neutral damage out of all of his moves, and only really an issue with Steel types, which are pretty easy to predict. Hidden Power Ground will allow it to do some great damage on the Fire-type switch-in and I believe that it OHKOs Magmortar with SR damage.

    Leatherhead @ Life Orb
    Ability: Torrent
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
    • Dragon Dance
    • Ice Punch
    • Earthquake
    • Waterfall

    The star of the show right here. With a single Dragon Dance Feraligatr is able to do tons of damage to most Pokemon, but with two, and if I'm lucky, three Dragon Dances he can sweep an entire time. With three Dragon Dances he has OHKO'd an entire team.

    The EVs are very straightforward, and his role is obvious. Get the opportunity to set up, set up, and demolish teams, although this isn't always the case as Ferroseed, Walrein (those two give me the most trouble) and physical walls in general can completely stop him in his rampage. Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, and Scald are moves that scare him out really easily so it's usually hard to set up, but if I do it can win the game.

    Milton @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Blaze
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
    • Eruption
    • Fire Blast
    • Hidden Power {Rock}
    • Focus Blast

    My late-game sweeper who scorches the battlefield. Typhlosion has taken on other teams incredibly outnumbered and I owe most of my victories to him. Assuming there's no Stealth Rock on the battlefield I can usually Eruption my way through teams (assuming they have no special walls or resistors to it). Hidden Power {Rock} for Fire-types who absolutely scare this team and allows him to counter them, while Focus Blast for a solid coverage move. Fire Blast as my powerful backup is Stealth Rock/Spikes are ever on the field. With a Modest nature to pack the extra punch needed, with the Choice Scarf to outspeed just about all unboosted Pokemon in the tier.

    Grinch @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Calm
    EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 36 SpD / 56 Spe
    • Ice Beam
    • Recover
    • Toxic
    • Rapid Spin

    Cryogonal acts my much-needed special wall, a staller, and a rapid spinner, playing a pivotal role in my team. Without Cryogonal many specially-offensive bulky threats would just power through my team (mainly Slowking) with Recover allowing it to effectively stall and survive. The moveset is to ensure I can outlive other Pokemon with Recover, spin away entry hazards, Toxic bulky Pokemon, and not be dead in the water without any attacking moves. 56 speed EVs allow it to outspeed neutral base 80s while HP to maximize bulk, with 168 Def to allow him to take at least one neutral physical attack. With this EV spread, he's almost always in 2HKO physical range, and can still sponge special attacks, just not as well as before.

    Jibakurei @ Choice Band
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
    • Sucker Punch
    • Return
    • Pursuit
    • Shadow Sneak

    Choice Band Spiritomb surprisingly fits well on my team. I'm sure a better position could be filled, but his three immunities are invaluable and the double STAB priority that he has is great. I usually have him as an Eruption-breaker, revenge killer, or to just wear certain Pokemon down with the repeated Shadow Sneak, or do massive damage with Return. The max EVs and nature in attack allows him to hit as hard as possible, while the remaining EVs dumped into HP allow him to retain as much bulk as possible with his great natural defense stats. 4 Speed EVs will allow him to outpace other Spiritomb not running any speed on their set.


    This team has trouble with defense-oriented and sometimes stall teams. Fire-types give this a lot of trouble as Feraligatr can't comfortably switch into attacks due to only average bulk, while Typhlosion can't come in on switch-ins due to Eruption's power being an issue and the fact that Flash Fire is unreleased. Cryogonal and Steelix even with their immense defense and special defense respectively can't take Fire-type attacks very well. Spiritomb is a less-powerful revenge-killer, but is easy to come in with his natural defenses and immunities and really surprises his opponents; Amoongus provides the all-too-useful utility in spore, and fires off powerful attacks, but can't survive long. Hail teams really screw this team up, especially Walrein, although he's less of a problem with Amoongus. This team still needs some work, and I feel as if Fire-types are still giving me a hard time as nothing can safely switch into them.

    I'm willing to switch out team members, open to all sorts of criticism, etc. All that I ask is for just respectful and constructive criticism instead of just saying "Good" or "Horrible, make new team".
  2. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 5, 2012
    Gonna make my first attempt to give feedback to an RMT.

    Your Steelix's moveset is pretty good. Although I'm sure 252 HP/220 Def/36 SpD is a better EV spread because you still are sturdy as fuck, and can maybe endure a special hit or two, but oh well.

    SubSeed is a very poor set that has proven to be suboptimal in RU. It gets too easily shut down by Grass-types, Sap Sipper users (Hi Saws and Afrobull), and Magic Guard (Clefable and Sigi). To make Whimsicott significantly more useful, I would recommend a support set of Stun Spore/U-turn or Memento/Encore/Taunt. This set makes Whimsicott a more useful teammate, rather than a shitty annoyer who fails miserably. Also use a physically defensive EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD and a Bold nature. Being able to take on Kabutops and opposing Gatr is neat. Priority Stun Spore is a very useful asset, and can help Gatr get going more easily. Encore and shit can help set up and more.

    Gatr's good as is. No substantial changes needed.

    As for Typhlosion, replace Scarf with Specs, and use a Timid nature rather than Modest. Scarfphlosion has been universally regarded as terrible and a mediocre revenge killer at best. However, with a Specs, Typhlosion becomes a strong wallbreaker, so he can hit shit so damn hard that they all die. It doesn't matter if you can't revenge Sceptile; you have Cryo/Steelix (Depending on the Sceppy set) for that lone purpose.

    I think Cryo is good as is.

    Sandslash is a mediocre Pokemon. Its typing isn't going to help your team in some way, and Steelix and Cryogonal are already reliable enough to do it. Sandslash is a Pokemon who cannot wall many physical attackers, and it rarely, if ever gets a chance to spin. Replace it with....prolly Absol? I dunno really

    Anyways, my two cents.
  3. Bossk


    Oct 20, 2009
    Does that repel any special moves from any particular Pokemon or are you just generalizing? I'll try it out regardless, but I was just curious.

    Okay, I'll try this out as well. I'm honestly just hoping to get rid of Whimsicott, but I don't really know what with. If this set proves useful enough, then I'll probably keep her.

    As for Typhlosion, replace Scarf with Specs, and use a Timid nature rather than Modest. Scarfphlosion has been universally regarded as terrible and a mediocre revenge killer at best. However, with a Specs, Typhlosion becomes a strong wallbreaker, so he can hit shit so damn hard that they all die. It doesn't matter if you can't revenge Sceptile; you have Cryo/Steelix (Depending on the Sceppy set) for that lone purpose.[/quote]

    Hm... I usually don't have many problems with 'Scarf, but if I switch to Timid and use Specs I wonder if he'll be more efficient (he already has the highest kill-count on my team and almost never has issues).

    Sandslash is a mediocre Pokemon. Its typing isn't going to help your team in some way, and Steelix and Cryogonal are already reliable enough to do it. Sandslash is a Pokemon who cannot wall many physical attackers, and it rarely, if ever gets a chance to spin. Replace it with....prolly Absol? I dunno really[/QUOTE]

    What would Absol really add to my team? Sandslash at least has the utility in Safeguard, Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock, and Bulldoze, but I don't see what having Absol will really help with. I'm not saying he won't help me at all, but what would he really help with? My threats are mainly bulky water-types and heavy-hitting Fire-types.
  4. 49

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 1, 2011
    Hey BossK, always cool to see people getting into RU, and I do really enjoy DD Feraligatr as a whole =)

    Anywho, while synergetically the team seems fairly solid, their are certain fundamental issues that I feel hold it back. For instance, there are a couple instances of redundancy of role (for instance, I feel as though Steelix, Cryogonal, and Sanslash's roles could all be consolidated to two, possibly even one teamslot), and the defensive core of the team seems to force your primary win conditions to take hits, both of whom are usually better off being preserved until late-game. I know this might sound silly, but tiny details such as this can really stack up against offensive teams, where that little extra damage Feraligatr takes switching in can put it in the range to get revenge-killed with priority attacks. Offensively speaking, your team looks to really struggle with Slowking, who checks both Feraligatr and Typhlosion, and is only beaten by Cryogonal's Toxic and awkward SubSeed cycles with Whimisocott (which it can always just switch out of). In terms of offensive issues, Fighting-types look to be an issue, as your team lacks any resist and relies on Sandslash to take a hit, meaning that Pokemon such as Gallade and Unburden Hitmonlee can do a number to you.

    That said, I do agree that Whimsicott is rather expendable in the context of your team. Were I to make a suggestion, it might help to replace it with Offensive Amoonguss. Amoonguss offers your team a solid pivot into a variety of attackers, including a good check to most of the tier's Fighting-types, barring Gallade with Psychic STAB (don't worry, I'll address this later :P ), as well as an excellent utility in Spore. Moreover, its solid offensive presence and solid STAB combination allow it to take on bulky Water- and Grass-types alike, easing issues for Feraligatr to sweep. This change would drop the "failsafe" ability to check set-up sweepers, but I feel as though it's added utility, backed by some minor alterations will be able to make up for it :) For reference, here's my proposed set:
    Offensive Amoonguss (open)
    Amoonguss @ Life Orb
    Ability: Regenerator
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 240 HP / 24 Def / 244 SpA
    - Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Moving on to fine-tuning bits, I feel as though Steelix's investment in Defense is somewhat excessive. Steelix's mammoth Defense already allows it to take on most physical hits one can realistically expect it to, though by investing fully in Defense it becomes less effective in taking on specially-based Psychic-types and so forth. I would recommend altering the spread to 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD, which allows it to continue to take on physical attacks well, while also better combating threats such as Substitute + Calm Mind Uxie.

    As a whole, I feel the necessity of Hidden Power Grass is rather low on Choice Scarf Typhlosion. Quagsire isn't all too common in RU (and even if they were Focus Blast has a solid chance at 2HKOing standard variants), and as a whole it remains unreliably in combating bulky Water-type switch-in's as it fails to even 3HKO some of them at times. I would look into Hidden Power Rock, as while not seeing much use does allow Typhlosion to check Fire-types such as Moltres to an extent, who might otherwise prove quite threatening to your team.

    While I understand Cryogonal is meant to be a specially defensive Pokemon, I feel as though investing in Defense will greatly improve its performance against hazard-heavy teams. I say this because Choice Band Spiritomb is a common response to Cryogonal, and if you were to be forced into such a match-up your current Cryogonal will lose 1v1, which is extremely detrimental to a team carrying Typhlosion. That said, I would suggest a spread of 248 HP / 168 Def / 36 SpD / 56 Spe, which allows it to consistently survive Choice Band Spiritomb's Sucker Punch (and thusly its Pursuit upon switching out), allowing it to effectively play around it by wearing it down with Ice Beam and Toxic damage. This will also help it shrug off Pursuit attempts from Pokemon such as Escavalier.

    Lastly, as mentioned prior I feel as though Sandslash is largely unneeded with both Cryogonal and Steelix fulfilling the roles it normally would. With this in mind, I feel as though an All-Out Attacker Spiritomb might better support your team. Spiritomb offers one of the best answers to Gallade in the tier, as well as Fighting-types as a whole, while also providing invaluable Pursuit support, which helps in eliminating Pokemon such as Slowking, which trouble both Feraligatr and Typhlosion to no end. Here would be the set:
    All-Out Attacker Spiritomb (open)
    Spiritomb @ Choice Band / Blackglasses
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    - Sucker Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Trick / Return

    tl;dr (open)
    • 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def ---> 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD

    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]

    • 248 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe --->248 HP / 168 Def / 36 SpD / 56 Spe

    • Hidden Power Grass ---> Hidden Power Rock

    [​IMG] ---> [​IMG]

    That said, I hope my comments were of use to you, good luck in the future ^_^
  5. Bossk


    Oct 20, 2009
    Alright, I'm actually really happy that you offered a replacement to Whimsicott, as it was dead weight. This seems like a fine set and I'll put it into effect asap; I feel as if this will help my team with some of my problems.

    Okay, this sounds like a solid idea. Would you also suggest a nature change, or should I keep the Relaxed (+Def, -Spe) nature?

    I honestly don't know why I didn't think of HP {Rock}. While it's true that Quagsire and some other water-types screw over Typhlosion they're not that common. As you said, Fire-types will be eliminated which is great because I've been having extreme problems with them.

    Hm... No offense, but this is not very appealing to me, but I will give it a try as those Pokemon have given me trouble in the past and what you're saying makes sense, but I did always figure him for an outright special wall.

    To be honest, he's one of the last Pokemon I suspected to be on this team for offensive support, but it sounds great, thanks.
  6. Magcargo

    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Feb 7, 2013
    I recommend offensive SR Nidoqueen instead of steelix. Aerodactyl leads aren't as common as they used to be and Nidoqueen has great bulk and typing as well as keeping the immunity to toxic and t wave. It's sheer force ability gives it much offensive presence allowing to Destroy most of the tier. You could also replace sandslash for queen and use another move instead of SR.
  7. Bossk


    Oct 20, 2009
    To the above poster, I'm sorry I forgot to update the first post. I replaced Whimsicott with an offensive Amoongus and Sandslash with a Choice Band Spiritomb. I'll think about the Nidoqueen, though, maybe even put it on my team for a couple of matches.

    Spiritomb is proving useful, as his immunities and priority allow some great switch-ins, KOs and forces some good switch-outs. Amoongus, however, isn't doing all that great. He doesn't usually get KOs, he usually just spores, scares out Pokemon, or gets some damage on Pokemon, but almost never KOs. This is fine, I suppose, but I feel as if a Pokemon could be doing his role better, I'm not really sure. He's also a great sport about absorbing Toxic Spikes.

    Steelix has proven to take special hits a lot better now, and while he takes more damage from physical attacks, it's nothing too serious. He can't take a Sceptile's Leaf Storm, but he can take some weaker hits. Cryogonal is doing about the same as well. Cryogonal still takes special hits okay (although I think I still want to put some more SpD EVs in there to allow more switch-ins), but the physical hits are now bearable. Most neutral physical attacks are 2HKOs instead of OHKOs.

    I'm still not doing amazing in the tier so I'm going to update the first post and see if anyone else can really help me refine this team.

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