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Uber match ups

Discussion in 'Archives' started by david stone, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    This is the second half of this thread. Not entirely complete, but I'd like some feedback on what kind of match-ups you'd like to have added, or you could even add your own, and as long as you're not a total failure at writing, I'll add it. I've actually been writing this for a few months now, but I keep not doing anything, which is why it took so long..





    This guide deals not only with the common, but also with what I believe to be potential metagame changers. This is why I've included stuff like Sceptile and Swellow, because although few people use them, they have the potential to wreak havoc on many teams.

    You may notice that I do not raise HP to whatever is needed for leftovers, and then add to the defenses. With a few exceptions (many of which I will mention), you get better defense and special defense by maxing HP before adding to both defenses.

    Now that I look over what I wrote, I may have stated some things that I didn't need to (like sets), but there isn't enough up-to-date uber material around. Perhaps I should just write another guide/submit some sets to the Dex.



    Attacking and defending
    (Common Match-ups)


    Or, if you'd like to skip past this tedious reading, and would rather make your own EV spreads instead of using mine, skip to the quick reference chart at the end.

    Exeggutor vs. Rayquaza

    Exeggutor is paired with Groudon to abuse the sun. Sunlight allows Exeggutor to outspeed everything but Salaced Groudon and Jolly Ninjask (and like Deoxys-E and stuff... lol), as well as fire off STAB base 120 power Solar Beams in one turn. However, Rayquaza's trait, Air Lock, allows it to switch in on an Exeggutor Solar Beam, which makes it take in sunlight instead of attacking that turn. Exeggutor is now stuck using Solar Beam, and is slower than Rayquaza, allowing it to OHKO with HP Flying or HP Bug without taking any damage. However, Exeggutor likes to carry HP Ice to hit that nasty 4x weakness on Rayquaza. Unlike Salamence, who would need to devote nearly all its EVs to even have a chance to survive, Rayquaza is bulky enough to actually take a hit.

    Exeggutor is assumed to be EVed as follows, unless otherwise noted:
    EVs: 16 HP / 240 Spd / 252 SAtk
    (For 336 HP for leftovers, speed to beat Salaced Smeargle, and max special attack)

    Standard Rayquaza is 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd. Modest Exeggutor OHKOs this 100% of the time. Rayquaza, however, doesn't have much use of that speed, as it beats only Groudon and Kyogre, and only then if they don't have a speed nature (unless you have one yourself). Bulky Rayquaza takes a lot of stuff by surprise, especially Exeggutor. The set I generally use, which gives 100% survival rate, is

    EVs: 204 HP / 248 Atk / 56 SDef

    I use this over other spreads because it takes 5 Night Shades/Seismic Tosses to kill it, allows (near) max attack, and gives the best physical defense for maximum attack power as well as surviving this. An alternate spread is:

    EVs: 252 Atk / 68 Spd / 188 SDef

    This hits 242 speed, just beating out random Brelooms/Magnetons or whatever strange Pokemon people add to their uber teams.

    This is, of course, assuming you are using a pure physical attacker. A special attacker would use one of those sets, with SAtk in the place of Atk. A mixed Rayquaza would use the second set, except no speed EVs, and split the attack and special attack to KO stuff as explained later, and likely a -speed nature.


    Now what happens if your enemy has the bright idea to use NevermeltIce Exeggutor? This adds 10% more damage to all Ice attacks, and might work on Eggy, as it can't really make much use of Leftovers, since most things 1-2HKO it, anyway. In that case, two Rayquaza spreads that survive this 100% would be...

    EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 SDef

    EVs: 252 HP / 142 Atk / 116 SDef

    However, Rayquaza is designed to be an offensive powerhouse, not a tank, and thus I do not recommend skimping on offensive power. The first spread has more attack, the second is better equipped to deal with physical attacks, and both take roughly the same from special attacks (percentage wise).



    Some Exeggutor users prefer Psychic on their Pokemon instead, for STAB and dual Rayquaza/Kyogre coverage (Kyogre's Drizzle does the same thing to Eggy as Rayquaza's Air Lock; it slows you down and makes Solar Beam take 2 turns). The first set given also allows Rayquaza to take 3 Psychics before dying (or 2, if one is a critical hit). It does 41-48% damage, and is thus optimal for both Psychic and HP Ice Exeggutor coverage. Mixed Rayquaza would obviously use the 188 special defense one, most likely, as it allows the most EVs in attack.



    Standard Exeggutor, as listed above, has virtually no defensive EVs whatsoever.

    No CB Rayquaza spread is so sad that it doesn't always OHKO this with HP Flying or Bug, even without attack EVs or a nature. Max attack HP Flying Rayquaza without a Choice Band has a 79% KO rate. If doesn't have a +attack nature, that drops to 21%. HP Bug doesn't even need a Choice Band to OHKO, even without a +attack nature or any attack EVs.

    For the special Rayquaza, Ice Beam max special attack without nature has an 89% KO rate on Exeggutor. With a nature, it's guaranteed. 407 special attack is the minimum needed for it to be guaranteed. Crunch with max special attack and a nature has 89% KO rate.

    So what if you want to EV your Exeggutor to survive Rayquaza? Too bad. Even max defense, max HP, Bold Exeggutor is OHKOed 65% of the time by the standard max attack adamant CB HP Flying. Sorry.


    Rayquaza vs. Tangela
    Some might consider using Tangela if they are deathly afraid. Bold Tangela with no defense or HP EVs takes 99% max damage from a CB HP Bug Adamant Rayquaza. If it has HP Flying, you need max defense, bold, and 228 HP EVs, which is not worth it (max defense, bold, and 128 HP EVs for a 50-50 KO rate), as you are then slow and can't OHKO a lot of stuff, making the whole point of Chlorophyll pointless.

    Tangela can also switch in on Groudon better. But it lacks the special attack power present in Exeggutor (328 max compared to 383). So in fact, Tangela is worse off against Rayquaza, as it will not OHKO with HP Ice on the switch (95% max damage to Rayquaza without EVs if you go max special attack Modest). In other words, Tangela sucks as anything other than a pure Groudon counter. It's nearly as good as Flygon, as it's able to put something to sleep, so it's not completely impotent against non-Groudon teams.


    Groudon vs. Kyogre

    Ah, yes, this is quite possibly the most interesting of match-ups, as it's one that occurs very often (especially on Sunny Day vs. Rain Dance games, which are extremely fun), and is one that neither side generally likes.

    Groudon @ Choice Band ** CB
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Overheat
    - Rock Slide

    It sometimes is Jolly instead of Adamant.

    Groudon @ Leftovers ** SD
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Rock Slide
    - Swords Dance

    The other standard. Some like Salac Berry on their Groudon, as it hits, as I said, 459 speed. Some use Adamant.

    Groudon @ Choice Band ** Tank
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 52 HP / 236 Atk / 228 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Overheat
    - Rock Slide

    This is the spread I'm starting to use, as Groudon doesn't outspeed much, anyway, so it might as well survive hits. This spread survives Modest Latios Soul Dew Ice Beam 100%, as well as Swords Danced Adamant Groudon EQ 100% of the time, which is important on starter Groudon.


    Kyogre's standard sets are:

    Kyogre @ Leftovers ** CM
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Thunder

    Some prefer Timid.

    Kyogre @ Leftovers ** Subber
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Calm Mind

    Some add speed. 101 HP subs for Deoxys-L and Blissey. Easily beats the two of them.


    OK, time for some actual calculations.


    Standard CB Groudon Earthquake to standard Kyogre (no defense or HP EVs):

    Minimum Damage: 328 (96%)
    Average Damage: 357 (100%)
    Maximum Damage: 386 (100%)

    That's a 76% OHKO rate without HP EVs. So, a potential Kyogre spread would be:

    EVs: 186 HP / 72 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    Or

    EVs: 116 Def / 140 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)


    as both of these survive a max damage roll. However, looking at the speed chart, the only common speed in this range is 256, which is what Lugia hits. The first set is at 234, and the second at 251. The first set might find it better to just max HP instead of putting extra in speed, the second could drop a couple points off special attack to beat Lugia without EVs. But some Groudon aren't CBed. These Groudon are generally Swords Dancers. How much defense does Kyogre need to be able to switch into a Groudon that swords dances on the switch and then tries to OHKO with SDed EQ?

    Sadly, Kyogre needs maximum defense and HP to do this 100% of time, so its only special attack boost is with a nature.
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    If you want 50% survival rate, it drops down to max HP and 152 defense EVs, or 124 HP and 240 defense.


    So you want your Kyogre to kill Groudon, too? In the rain, 365 special attack (so in other words, Modest without any EVs at all) will always OHKO Groudon with Surf in the Rain, even if it has max HP and special defense (but no nature). If you use Hydro Pump, then it's even lower. In fact, Hydro Pump Kyogre without a special attack nature and without EVs will always OHKO Groudon under Drizzle, even it has 252 HP EVs, 252 Special Defense EVs, and a +special defense nature. Standard Groudon and the more tankish max HP Groudon always die to Surf in the rain, as well.

    Of course, this assumes you are switching Kyogre into Groudon. What if it's the other way around? Then, instead of being rainy, it's sunny. This is not good, as your power then becomes 1/3 of what it once was. 358 special attack is a guaranteed 2HKO on standard CB Groudon. If it has Leftovers, instead, you need 380 special attack (40 EVs +Nature), instead.

    If you want to OHKO, you cannot do it with Surf or Hydro Pump. However, if you Calm Mind as it switches in, things are different.

    Max special attack Modest Surf after 1 CM has a 44% chance to OHKO standard Groudon. Hydro Pump needs 374 special attack (32 EVs +Nature) to OHKO standard Groudon after a CM in the sun 100% of the time.

    However, Ice Beam is a better choice than either of them for KOing Groudon in the sun, as sunlight weakens water's power by 50%. However, Ice Beam still cannot OHKO Groudon. It does 81-96% damage to the standard. If you CM, however, you only need 360 special attack (+nature, or 96 EVs and no nature) for a guaranteed OHKO with Ice Beam on the standard, 426 special attack (208 EVs +nature) for max HP.





    Skarmory vs. Groudon

    Skarmory is assumed to be EVed as such, unless otherwise noted:
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)

    Skarmory is a rare Pokemon to see in ubers, as people often say that too many Pokemon are special attackers. However, those physical attackers almost never carry a move to hit Skarmory, except some CB Groudon, and even then, people are using things like Thunder Wave, Body Slam, and Sleep Talk. Even if it does carry a fire move, it rarely uses it, as its other moves hit just about everything else much harder, so you don't have to worry about them guessing what you're up to and predicting a Skarmory switch. Skarmory is nice to counter Groudon, as it is immune to Earthquake, 4x resistant to HP Bug, and Rock Slide, although neutral, still has trouble penetrating this flying tin can. Warning: newbies love Eruption on Groudon, and they'll use it even on Kyogre, so watch out.

    Max attack Adamant CB Groudon Rock Slide does 28-33% damage to max HP max defense Impish Skarmory. If it rolls max damage each time, that's a 4HKO, which allows Skarmory to fully spike up before dying, assuming all of them hit. Minimum damage on each is a 5HKO. On average, it 4HKOs, ignoring Rock Slide's accuracy. This won't kill Skarmory for a while, considering that Skarmory can just use rest and stall out your PPs while laying down spikes, and then simply whirlwind you away after it feels good and ready. It could drill peck, even, since CB Groudon generally has no method of recovery, all damage is permanent. If it feels really evil, it can use Counter or Toxic.

    Standard Choice Band Groudon carries Flamethrower, Fire Blast, or Overheat, however. Some use Overheat, fearing Skarmory might survive Flamethrower, thinking, "I'll only use it once on Skarmory, and then have to switch out, anyway," and others use Fire Blast so they don't have worries of Skarmory surviving and don't lower their special attack, while Flamethrower is the move of choice of some people who think Skarmory couldn't possibly survive, and like 100% accuracy. Which one of these is the best?

    Flamethrower (Adamant/Jolly):
    Minimum: 74%
    Average: 80%
    Maximum: 87%

    Flamethrower (Brave):
    Minimum: 82%
    Average: 90%
    Maximum: 97%

    Fire Blast (Adamant/Jolly):
    Minimum: 93%
    Average: 100%
    Maximum: 100%
    58% OHKO rate

    Fire Blast (Brave):
    100% OHKO rate

    Overheat (any):
    100% OHKO rate

    Sadly, Flamethrower simply cannot OHKO max HP Skarmory, which all Skarmory should have (since HP adds more to physical defense than defense EVs, as well as boosting special defensive capabilities). Fire Blast usually OHKOs with Adamant/Jolly, and always with Brave, while Overheat will give a guaranteed OHKO. For this reason, I prefer Overheat Groudon, as Overheat has more accuracy than Fire Blast, same PP, and it's not like Fire Blast is going to hurt anything else in ubers, anyway, compared to a -2 special attack Groudon after Overheating. I also prefer Adamant to Brave if Skarmory is the only concern, as Brave Groudon is slower than stuff like Kingdra and Kabutops in the sun/unagilitied Agiligross, unless you slap on some speed EVs.

    If Groudon wants a guaranteed OHKO on Skarmory with Flamethrower, it should be Brave, with a whopping 208 special attack EVs (288 special attack in total). This is not a very wise choice, unless you're running a strange special Groudon, in which case you'll have max special attack most likely, anyway. 116 EVs (265 special attack) is a 50-50 shot at shooting the metal bird out of the skies.

    In the reverse situation, if Skarmory wants to survive Adamant Fire Blast, it needs 76 special defense EVs. To survive Brave Groudon, it's 164, which is getting a little excessive. Don't even think about surviving Overheat: Skarmory is a physical wall, and making it take an Overheat would take so many EVs as to prevent it from being effective at this. Use Lugia/Latias as a secondary tank if you're afraid of that (Lugia/Latias and Skarmory make a decent uber combo, too). On my uber stall team, I run Kyogre and Skarmory. Kyogre makes it rainy, halving the power of fire moves, and then Skarmory can take on any Groudon (except strange special Groudon with Thunder).

    Much like with the CB Groudon, Swords Dance Groudon is also walled by the metal bird, except the Swords Dancing variety rarely carry a fire move. After a single Swords Dance, Groudon does a pathetic, miserable, measly sum of 34-40% damage Adamant (4HKO), 31-37% Jolly. Adamant usually 2HKOs, Jolly needs max damage both times.

    Lati@s vs. Skarmory

    Uh, oh! Your Lugia died, and Lati@s is CMing up. You can take it on one-on-one with one of your Pokemon, but not if they have the CM advantage. However, you have a Skarmory on your team, and you think, "Hey, it resists Dragon Claw! Why not send it out?" Suicide, right?

    Latias needs 340 special attack and Soul Dew (10 less than max) to have a guaranteed 3HKO without CMs. Even if Latias has absolute max special attack and Soul Dew, it fails to OHKO Skarmory after 2 CMs.

    (Max special attack Modest Latias to 0 special defense max HP Skarmory)
    Minimum Damage: 39%
    Average Damage: 42%
    Maximum Damage: 45%

    Latios, on the other hand, has a chance at it. With absolute maximum special attack Modest, it has a 10% chance to OHKO Skarmory after 2 CMs. Even a max damage CH will leave it with 3 HP remaining if you have no CMs. Latios needs only 56 special attack EVs with a Modest nature for a guaranteed 3HKO.


    Some Lati@s run Thunder and/or Ice Beam. Thunder easily kills Skarmory, but if they have something like Dragon Claw+Ice Beam, or only Ice Beam, then can Skarmory survive?

    Skarmory survives Modest Latios Ice Beam with no CMs, but is OHKOed always after a CM. Latias, on the other hand, has only a 46% chance of KOing Skarmory after a CM with Ice Beam. Skarmory needs 56 special defense and max HP to survive 100%.


    Metagross and Lati@s
    Some people like how Metagross resists Dragon Claw, so they use it to stop Lati@s from ripping a hole through their team. Some say that Metagross easily OHKOs Lati@s with Meteor Mash, so Shadow Ball isn't that useful. Are they right?

    Metagross OHKOs the standard Latias (no defense or HP EVs) with Choice Band Meteor Mash, but it needs near max (402) attack, and a Choice Band to do it. It needs 376 attack for a guaranteed OHKO with Shadow Ball.

    If Latias would like to survive Choice Band Metagross Shadow Ball, it can use two spreads.

    EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / Other EVs
    OR
    EVs: 0 HP / 236 Def / Other EVs

    This gives it guaranteed survival. Standard Latias, however, has 307 speed, and max special attack Modest. Does it even stand a chance to survive with all the leftover EVs (52) in defense?

    No. Metagross will always OHKO with Shadow Ball. It needs 72 defense EVs to even begin to think of surviving, and even then, the chance is pathetically low (Less than 2%). 152 defense EVs gives it a 50-50 chance.

    However, there are many Metagross with Meteor Mash, EQ, Explosion, and Pursuit/Rock Slide. Perhaps Latias can survive Meteor Mash where Shadow Ball would have killed. Two possible spreads are:

    228 HP / 0 Def / Others
    OR
    0 HP / 164 Def / Others

    Can the leftover EVs of standard Latias survive every once in a while?

    Yes. With 30% survival rate, actually (95% minimum damage).

    It's far worse for Latios. It needs:

    252 HP / 64 Def / Others
    OR
    0 HP / 244 Def / Others

    For guaranteed survival... against Meteor Mash. Shadow Ball is even worse.
    252 HP / 124 Def / Others


    For a comparison for Lati@s EVed to survive Shadow Ball

    Latias:
    HP: 364
    Attack: 176
    Defense: 227
    Speed: 256
    Special Attack: 339
    Special Defense: 296

    Latios:
    HP: 364
    Attack: 194
    Defense: 227
    Speed: 256
    Special Attack: 361
    Special Defense: 256

    22 more special attack for 40 less special defense on Latios. The difference in attack is irrelevant.


    How much can these Pokemon dish out to that scrap heap in return? Metagross is assumed to be EVed as such, unless otherwise noted:

    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    If you use the Latias spreads above, then things are interesting. The first (max HP) spread does 42-49% damage with Dragon Claw after 1 CM (so as Metagross switches in), assuming the remaining EVs are put into special attack and a Modest Nature is used. If it uses the 0 HP spread, however, it can max special attack with 22 leftover EVs. This means it will do just as much as standard Latias, but still survive. It does 43-51% damage to Metagross. Since Metagross is almost always Choice Banded, leftovers can be ignored. This is a 3.6% chance to 2HKO.

    Lati@s needs 406 special attack stat for a guaranteed 2HKO with CM and Soul Dew Dragon Claw (913 after boosts). Latias has 350 maximum, Latios 394, so you can get very close.


    Some Lati@s have HP Fire for dual Metagross/Shedinja coverage, and others have HP Dark to hit much of the psychic uber Metagame. Can these do it?

    They need 347 special attack to 2HKO with HP Dark after a CM. If you EV it right, the battle can go something like this:

    Enemy switched to Metagross!
    Lati@s used Calm Mind!
    --------
    Lati@s used HP Dark!
    Metagross used Choice Band Shadow Ball, and was astonished that you survived!
    -------
    Lati@s used HP Dark! Metagross fainted!

    A possible spread for a Latias that wants to do this would be:

    EVs: 170 HP / 100 Def / 240 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    It could, of course, use 244 defense and then put the rest in special attack/speed.

    Latios would use the spread

    EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 80 SAtk
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    With 52 remaining EVs. I recommend putting them into special attack, in case Metagross uses special defense EVs.



    HP Fire is another option, for the infamous "Flameclaw". Dragon+Fire has absolutely nothing that resists it, which some people really like. HP Fire also has the advantage of getting boosted by sunlight, and doing the same to Metagross in the rain as HP Dark would. If you use HP Fire, use Groudon. This allows you to easily OHKO Metagross. You only need 519 special attack after boosts. This means you can have 346 special attack (both Latias and Latios can reach this fairly easily) and OHKO without any CMs. If you do CM, you don't need any EVs or a nature to OHKO with either of them.



    Some Lati@s use Thunderbolt+Ice Beam ("boltbeam"), as it hits most Pokemon super effective. In fact, only 3 Pokemon resists both (Magneton, who has special defense and HP so pathetic that it might as well not resist it, Lati@s won't have any trouble taking it out, Lanturn, which can be interesting as a Kyogre counter, I guess, and Shedinja, who can be very troublesome).

    Latias needs 4 special attack EVs for a guaranteed 2HKO on max HP, 0 special defense Metagross with a single CM Thunderbolt, or for a 3HKO without CMs. If you'd like to be able to Thunderbolt Metagross once on the switch in, come out, and then be able to Calm Mind and kill Metagross as it comes in, you need 307 special attack, which is 204 EVs on Latias, 44 on Latios. This is easy to remember, as it is also the minimum speed most Lati@s hit. This should do 40-47% to Metagross on your unCMed hit, so it if does less, then you know it's packing special defense EVs, so watch out!


    If you or the enemy has brought out a Kyogre, however, the trait will give Thunder 100% accuracy, which makes it a better choice than Thunderbolt.

    In that case, Thunder has a 10% chance of Latias OHKOing Metagross after a CM. Latios has 83% chance to OHKO. Both 2HKO easily without any CMs.




    Lati@s vs. Groudon
    Latias with Ice Beam will nearly always OHKO 0 HP, 0 special defense Groudon with Ice Beam, and Groudon will just barely always survive (82-97%) with max HP. If you can get in a CM, you have no trouble OHKOing, since Groudon needs max HP and special defense to have a chance of surviving.

    Latias with Dragon Claw, however, has a bit more trouble. If it gets in one CM, it will OHKO Groudon nearly half the time, if Groudon has no HP/special defense. It does 78-92% to max HP, and 71-83% to the 52 HP 220 special defense Groudon.

    Some people like to use Solar Beam, which KOs the "tank" Groudon 2/3 of the time, and always OHKOs max HP/no defensive EVs Groudon without a CM, assuming max special attack Modest Latias.

    Latios Ice Beam always OHKOs Groudon with max HP. However, that's why I made the spread 52 HP/220 special defense. This survives always, and, with a CB, can OHKO Latios back with HP Bug.



    Quick Reference Chart!
    Note that due to rounding, you might want to put just a bit more than suggested here. The numbers in the last column are the relevant defense stat multiplied by the HP stat. So if you want Latias to survive a Metagross Shadow Ball, you note that it's 2x effective, you look up 2x effective Shadow Ball. Say you want a Latias with 350 HP. You would divide the number, 83,000 in this case, by the HP, 350. This gives 237 defense. If you want to check, you can put these numbers in the damage calculator to make sure that it doesn't have a 1% chance to survive or whatever due to rounding. In this case, you waste only a single EV (Latias could survive with 1 less defense EV), which is very accurate. All numbers rounded up to the nearest thousand.

    This also works if your Pokemon is only at 50% health, or 63.5%, allowing this to have an in-battle use. Simply multiply your defense by your remaining HP, and use this as your defense index score, and you can determine if you survive.

    Factoring leftovers is a bit trickier. If you only care about surviving a single blow, leftovers are irrelevant. For surviving two attacks (meaning a 3HKO), you divide the number given by .53 (well, actually, by .53125, but that's close enough). Divide by .375 to survive 3 hits with leftovers (meaning 4HKO).

    For the least amount of EVs used, always raise the lowest stat first. So Skarmory would raise HP, but Blissey would raise defense to get the most physical defense. If the lowest stat can be raised higher than the other stat (if your HP starts at 300 and defense starts at 290, you'd raise defense first, but when the defense gets to 300, then go on to this next step), then take the square root of the HP x Def number, and this is what both the defense and the HP stat should be. It's more complicated if you want to defense from physical and special, however, and is beyond the scope of this guide. So in the previous example, a Pokemon with HP and defense both at 288 would have the lowest stat total and still survive CB Metagross Super Effective Shadow Ball. Putting this into the damage calculator, we see that this is correct, without a single EV point wasted (max damage roll leaves 1 HP).

    [​IMG]
  2. Kataphraktoi

    Kataphraktoi

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    74
    wow

    I have been doing some deoxys-F crunching, but nothing quite that comprehensive.
  3. moomoonerd

    moomoonerd

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Messages:
    519
    That looks really helpful, but I haven't played ubers. That must have taken a looong time.
  4. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    14,081
    holy fucking shit

    Might as well add my CM chart here, which I wanted to add to the new uber guide in the make.

    From a scratch:

    1 Taunt
    2 Toxic
    3 Roar/Whirlwind
    4 Attacking versatility and side effects
    5 Recover

    Let's say you want to know whether your Calm Minding whatever can take on your opponent's Calm Minding whatever. You think you know the sets, so you can use above chart, with the explanation and additions stated here, to figure out whether you will win or not (most of the time, of course we don't know whether you will luck out or not).

    First, there's Mewtwo (and Mew and Deoxys-E, but they're rare) that carry Taunt. If they are faster, can live through a direct attack with more than 50% left at the end of the turn, they can Taunt every other turn, and in the other turns either Calm Mind or Recover to win it nearly 100% of the time. This might be harder if you're paralyzed or slower anyway, but generally Taunt will stop opponents from Roaring, Whirlwinding, paralyzing, Toxicing, Taunting, Recovering, Taunting you or whatever they could do to slow you down. Even Psych Up cannot stop this.

    The second tier here is Toxic, which stops anything except Taunt in this tier. A Toxiced opponent will slowly but surely fall if it stays in. Yes, it is usable in combination with Calm Mind, as long as you get Metagross out of the way (but that's your task). However, besides Taunt, Toxic will not win against:
    - Safeguard (rarely on Lati@s and never on anything else)
    - Substitute (sometimes on Mewtwo, Mew, Celebi, Ho-oh, Lugia, and probably more)

    Now we get to Whirlwind (or Roar if you have Lati@s...I mean you'll want to be able to phaze Electrode, Exploud and Mr. Mime right?). If your opponent doesn't expect it, you can just Calm Mind 5 times with him, then blow him away on his 6th, to then sweep anything aside, Whirlwinding away troublemakers trying to Calm Mind again, or to do Spikes damage. However, Whirlwinding always goes last, except if you're faster and against another Whirlwinder/Roarer. Therefore, it's unavoidable that you get Toxiced or Taunted before you can do anything about it. However, it gives your Lugia a second function: a great Calm Mind counter. Lati@s can do this as well.

    This fourth tier is mostly for Kyogre and Boltbeam Lati@s. Usually but not always, you can stop a Calm Minder by luck, either a CH, a freeze, or paralysis. A Kyogre that repeatly Ice Beams a Latias will eventually kill it with a CH, or freezes it if it doesn't use Safeguard. It's wise to Calm Mind once or twice to make sure you OHKO with a CH (this is not me number crunching).

    This tier also points out that if one of the Pokemon has a type advantage over the other, it will usually win a Calm Mind war. Of course this is stats dependant (HP Dark Lugia is still not doing much to Dragon Claw Latias), but this is clearly seen in an example such as Thunderbolt Latios versus Ho-oh.

    The fifth and last tier consists of Recovering Calm Minders. Almost every Calm Minder Recovers, the only realistic exception being Kyogre. And Kyogre can usually paralyze or freeze his opponents if given the time. However, if you're not greedy, just Calm Mind about three times with your Latios before starting to pound Kyogre with STAB Dragon Claws. It will fall soon enough, because it cannot really restore HP (if it has Rest, it has less room for other vital things). If you are to face, let's say, Ho-oh without Recover, while you're using one that does have it, you'll win because you can shrug off his damage while he can't. Very simple concept.

    Yeah, tl;dr.
  5. Vulcan Fury

    Vulcan Fury
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,017
    lol you've covered everything i might have said, good job
  6. freaktron

    freaktron

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,627
    iirc max SAtk Modest Latias isn't standard; neither is 307 speed on it. As Groudon80 said once on Pokerealm, 307 Speed isn't enough because the occasional but rare CB Rayquaza with HP Bug can OHKO it. 300 SAtk/max speed/rest in SDef with Calm is better imo, although you can try it if you like.

    Another spread I use on CB Groudon that survives Modest Latios Ice Beam is:
    Groudon @ Choice Band
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 240 HP / 156 Atk / 20 Spd / 92 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    DVs: 31, 31, 31, 30, 31, 30

    Eh, basically the same as mentioned before but the SDef and HP EVs are swapped around, with a bit took out of Attack to do so.

    Also there are some situations you might want to add, like Lugia vs Groudon, and Lugia vs Lati@s.

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