[DONE] Uncompetitive Strategies [Baton Pass]

[McMeghan]

Cheeser
'Cheeser' and 'Cheesing' are terms meaning someone in gaming who spams imbalanced attacks or uses lame methods for a quick win.

I want to take the lead and adress an important issue currently plaguing Tournaments, altho it doesn't stop there.

We all know Pokemon is an unbalanced game with many "cheap" strategies, and this is why we banned some of them in the past (Ingrain + BP in ADV, Moody in BW) or recently (Swagger, Full BP, HypnoGravity in Doubles), to prevent them from harming the value of our ladder or our Tournaments.

I have serious concerns regarding the competitive integrity of our tournaments when cheap strategies take them by storm, and it is the case right now with the Smogon Classic and the Smogon Tour. These strategies bring absolutely nothing positive to the table and are good enough to semi-reliably win games. The biggest issue is that they're becoming more and more popular.

Before adressing the Baton Pass problem in details, I want to mention four important points.

1. I don't blame the players who abuse what's best/the easiest way to win games. I do not plan to take ANY actions or discourage/reason players into not using cheap strategies. If anything, I'm thankful they're opening everyone's eyes.
2. I want this issue adressed ASAP before it ruins/harms even more the affected Official Tournaments. Ideally, I'd like to be done with it within the week so the Smogon Tour playoffs are cheese-free.
3. Most of them are affecting Old Generations. I understand caring about "politics" and the masses when we touch our current generations tiers. However, our Old Gens don't catter to much people outside of the long time competitive battlers, who are all playing on Smogon for the most part, so I'd like the possibility to go ham and get rid of all the cheese at once in our Old Gens.
4. There will be a lot of Complex Bans proposals in this thread, but I genuinely think it has to be done to preserve the competitivity of the game.

Now, let's delve into the details. I will adress the current competitive issues generation by generation.

ADV

• BellyPass
  

BellyPass isn't new at all, it was already troublesome in Smogon Tour when ADV was one of the featured generation. It has been popularized by a team CrashinBoomBang made and passed around. It has won many Smogon Tour games (the most notable example being CTC beating M Dragon and Ojama with it in the later stages of a tour), seen some usages in SPL (kael and Sinclair this season) and has already been used in the ADV Cup. BellyPass is a sure-fire win in a lot of situation, it revolves around a very hard to stop core threat: Smeargle with the moves Spore, Belly Drum, Subsitute and Baton Pass (with a Sailac Berry). With the appropriate receivers, it's not hard to play around every would-be counters of the strategy. HERE is the team in question, Exploud and Cradily lets you play around Perish Songers and Phazers. The only safe counter is Haze, a move only used by these 3 Pokemons from OU and BL: Vaporeon, Weezing and Articuno (none of them are great Pokemons in the tier by the way).

Some replays of the team in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-56150
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-56122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-52540

How to get rid of this: Complex Ban Belly Drum + Baton Pass
(Only Smeargle leans this combination in ADV).

• Full Baton Pass
  
  

Even with Ingrain + BP banned, full Baton Pass teams are almost impossible to beat if played well. Umbreon can still trap everything with Mean Look and BP the trap. Umbreon's access to Taunt and Torment lets it play around a lot of situations to get in the right position to get the chain going. MrMime easily blocks Roar (read: every Phazer bar Skarmory) and Skarm isn't hard to deal with for a BP team thanks to Zapdos/Taunt users like Mawile, Hypno, MrMime or Smeargle. With one or two speed boost, you can easily outphaze Phazers and Skarmory with a Zapdos/Vaporeon too. In the past, M Dragon beat Danilo in SPL with a full BP team, while Danilo had CM Roar Cune, Roar Zapdos and WW Skarmory.

Here is a replay of a full BP team in action (that was an ADV Cup game):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-57048

How to get rid of this: Ban Baton Pass on more than 2 users per team or Ban Baton Passing more than 2 different stats boosts (if possible)

There are many viable Baton Pass users in OU, and some of them just use the move for momentum sake: Zapdos, Celebi, Vaporeon and Jolteon mainly. The first option would be easier to implement while the second gives more liberty to the player since it's actually possible to end with 3 Baton Pass users in a team, altho 2 is quite rare already. You will probably never attempt to pass more than 2 different stats in a regular team.

DPP

• Gliscor Pass
  

I'm not completely sure about that one, but Gliscor Pass is a pretty easy and cheap strategy to pull off. It includes a dual screen lead (Azelf or Uxie, Taunt vs Memento/Yawn) and a Double Dance Taunt Gliscor (Rock Polish / Swords Dance). With the appropriate berry (Passho/Yache), Gliscor is virtually unkillable under screens and it's far from hard to Baton Pass one to 3+ boosts to some potent receivers and take a huge (unrecoverable) advantage or straight up win the game with that strategy.

I can't find or remember any replays, and do not have an ideal Ban proposal for this particular case.

• Full Baton Pass
  
  

Same as ADV, except adapted to the DPP metagame. IPL used it in most rounds of the 7th OST, which he won; he notably used it in the final versus PttP. It's starting to see usage in Smogon Tour (Denisss used Baton Pass for the most part of his winning run during the 6th week.

Replays of the team in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52214
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52231
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52257
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52262

How to get rid of this: Ban Baton Pass on more than 2 users per team

BW

• SmashPass
  

BW is the generation that needs the most work. SmashPass has been a controversial issues for ages there, but it's never seen enough usage to get banned. The recent surge of utilisation in Smogon Tour (and success to top it off) makes me think it's about time to pull the trigger. SmashPass revolves around setting up screens, usually with Azelf, using Shell Smash with Gorebyss, Huntail or Smeargle and then Baton Passing the boosts and obliterate stuff with it. It has been used in many SPL and WCoP games in the past, and it's a lot harder to play around in practice than it sounds in theory. Currently being used a bunch in Smogon Tour.

Some replays, as usual:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-55511
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56073
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56092
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56402

How to get rid of this: Complex Ban Smash Pass + Baton Pass in the same moveset or Ban Baton Passing more than 2 different stats boosts (if possible)

• Full Baton Pass
  
  

Same as ADV and DPP, except even deadlier thanks to Espeon. Note that IPL reached the quarter-finals of OST#9 mainly thanks to full BP. Also, remember that it was dominating the BW1 ladder for a while and even got Suspected back then (I was already for the ban!). It's currently seeing a lot of usages in Smogon Tour and BW Cup.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-228699613
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56506
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56423
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-55512
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-56054

How to get rid of this: Using the current ORAS Baton Pass Clause (limit the the use of the move Baton Pass to just one Pokemon on any given team)

ORAS

• SmashPass
  

ORAS has to be dealt with differently because it's our current main tier and we have to deal with the "political" aspect of the problem. Most of the council is already favorable to do something about this issue tho. As for how SmashPass works in ORAS, it's pretty much the same thing than in BW.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ultimate-ou-170
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53720
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53642
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-54790
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-54733
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-47770
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-47704

How to get rid of this: Complex Ban Smash Pass + Baton Pass in the same moveset or Ban Baton Passing more than 2 different stats boosts (if possible)

• GeoPass
  
  

Who isn't aware of GeoPass at this point? Denisss made a RMT about it and it's been used by a TON of people on the ladder for fun or brainlessly achieve reqs during Suspect Tests. It now sees Tournament usage. The OU Council plan to take action towards GeoPass soon enough.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-53719
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-152706284
....many more...

How to get rid of this: Ban Geomancy or Ban Baton Passing more than 2 different stats boosts (if possible)
-----

Up to you all to discuss about this. If you disagree with only some of the proposed bans, please voice your concerns. If you have better ban proposals, please post them in the thread

Tagging the TDs and OU Council in particular: aim haunter Aldaron M Dragon Ciele Oglemi Zebraiken Jirachee Eo Ut Mortus Vinc2612

 

[ryan]

swagger in bw....

 

[Jibaku]

Minor nitpick here but I think it doesn't make sense to call a strategy "cheese" if it's semi-reliably winning games. I believe cheese is defined as simply the use of unconventional strategies to surprise an opponent, not the 2nd entry from urbandictionary.

 

[Jirachee]

Here are a few Gliscor pass replays showing just how stupid it can be

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52259
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-52250

I'd like to say that if Azelf has a good lead match-up, the Gliscor pass user will usually win the game. That's pretty dumb lol

The best fix would be banning 2 boosting moves + Baton Pass on the same moveset, or banning passing 2 stat boosts at once (like what Meghan suggested for other issues)

edit: Also, most DPP Baton Pass teams have a Taunt user and will lose to a ton of common stuff if Taunt + Baton Pass is banned on the same moveset (this applies to Gliscor too)

 

[mimi]

As someone who has used ADV BD Pass multiple times, there is no doubt in my mind that it should be banned. If you can make one aggressive play and get Smeargle in on something slower than it, you pretty much just auto win the match

 

[Reverb]

As someone who's been bitching concerned about Smash/Geo Pass since the beginning of ORAS, I think the best way to proceed in ORAS is to ban Geomancy and Shell Smash on the same moveset as Baton Pass. It simply aggravates issues with team matchups and requires no skill to use. On the ladder, I've seen plenty of terrible players defeat very good players by abusing this strategy. Now, it seems to have infected the tournaments scene. Since we want to promote skill as the deciding factor in matches above all else, I think it's time to complex ban these two moves and BP. At the end of the day, we want a tour's winner to be a great player, not a poor player who used an uncompetitive strategy.

 

[Oglemi]

From the logs it doesn't look like BellyPass needs to be limited in ADV tbh, in the second log the BP user got lucky with the Sleep Talk roles which can happen in any game, and the third log Marth made a lot of suboptimal plays. Not saying that it might not be worse than presented but those logs in particular aren't convincing to me.

For dealing with full BP in ADV, clausing more than 2 or more than 3 is probably best, although if the full BP chain is to work it needs to TrapPass, so I think clausing Mean Look + Baton Pass solves a lot of the issues there or at least should be looked into.

DPP, I agree with Jirachee that a Taunt + Baton Pass clause extremely limits BP chains since a lot of DPP teams carry a phazing move of some kind that prevents BP chains from working very well.

For full BP in BW, banning Espeon or Magic Bounce would probably be better, or clausing more than 2 or 3 BP users on a team. I'd rather not see as strict a clause as XY applied to BW until we see it continue to be an issue with the lesser clause.

SmashPassing has proven itself to be a hit or miss strategy in BW, even in the finals of OST with Snunch and Thatsjustpeachy, I don't know that clausing it is entirely necessary. Those logs show that it's very effective against similar builds of teams, I would like to see if it works just as effectively against a range of other teams.

ORAS i know as much as john snow so

 

[Iconic]

I haven't given the issue enough thought to fully get behind any one idea, but I was just wondering (and I actually may have missed this suggestion to begin with), has anyone considered a blanket BP + boosting move ban? It seems like across generations, the main issues are 1) BP + SUPER STRONG BOOSTING MOVE and 2) full BP chains, both of which are solved by a blanket ban.

The only reason I mention this idea is that, while I agree some sort of BP ban in each generation could prove useful, I'm concerned a bit about the confusion that could come from a series of bans. To solve all the issues in the OP, we're looking at the possibility of the following bans:

- Belly Drum + BP
- 2 or more BP users on a team
- two boosting moves + BP on one Pokemon (for DPP Gliscor pass)
- Shell Smash + BP
- Geomancy + BP

That's a lot to digest. Obviously when it comes to tiering, we should never ever ever ever ever make decisions solely based on "accessibility" for new players. However, my experiences in BW tiering taught me that if at all possible, simplicity should be a principle that we should at least strive for as long as it doesn't fully define the tiering process.

A blanket BP + boosting move ban solves all the problems listed in McMeghan's post, but the drawback of course is that ostensibly non-broken strategies like Agilipassing and SD-passing are made illegal (though there is a case to be made that they are broken I suppose). But keep in mind there has been collateral damage like this in the past (one that comes to mind is the fact that Aldaron's Proposal banned non-broken strategies like Swift Swim Luvdisc + Drizzle). For the record, I agree that Agilipassing/SD-passing is much more prevalent than Swift Swim Luvdisc + Drizzle, and that the repercussions of banning Agilipassing/SD-passing would be more severe, but I still think a blanket ban across generations is something to talk about at least.

Again, I'm certainly not pushing for anything. I just thought I'd throw in my 2 Sense.

Apologies for the hilarious number of parentheses XD

 

[Aldaron]

ORAS i know as much as john snow so

jon snow **

 

[aim]

While i am pro ban, i do feel that successful baton pass takes some merit of skill. A lot of the arguments (not really here but from what i've seen) say "in the hands of a good player, it's pretty much unbeatable." Not that, that really matters lol just felt like saying that. Anyway, for ORAS i'm for a GeoMancy + Baton Pass and Shell Smash + BP ban as mentioned above. The move baton pass by itself isn't broken as it's great for scouting/trapping etc etc, but those combos are what make it "uncompetitive" or too strong, w.e you want to call it. So yeah support for geopass/smashpass on same set ban. I'll add more about the other gens i play later.

 

[Zarel]

>http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ultimate-ou-170

This appears to be running an older, buggier version of PS. I'd recommend playing on Smogtours because we update frequently.

 

[ginganinja]

Kinda glad to see Baton Pass getting a good look, especially in some of the older gens that have been largely "frozen" up until now. I'm more favourable towards a ban on BP + Boosting move personally, mostly because I believe that its a far simpler and handles the Gliscor outlier example in the OP. I'd be a little guttered that some of the sets I liked using in the past, like Nasty Pass Mew gets kicked to the curb with this restriction, but I think its really one of the few options left on the table that fully addresses the entire issue with Baton Pass, albeit an extreme solution.

 

[Vinc2612]

Banning Taunt + Baton Pass in all gens. Of course BP could still win, but the nerf is so big that playing BP won't be worth the risk anymore. Only BW pass could still be huge, but that can be fixed by "only one BP user".

Also a smeargle ban in ADV could also be interesting, I've never seen it in a non-BP team. + Geomancy ban in ORAS.

Edit (to make my ideas clearer):

ADV:
Ban Smeargle and ban Taunt + BPass

Pro: Bellypass is impossible, full bpass is not worth it anymore. Teams that have three baton pass users without the will of a BPass chain are not nerfed.
Con: Smeargle leaves. It does not look like a bad trade to me.

DPP:
Ban Taunt + BPass
Pro: Counting only on baton pass becomes way too risky, other way of using baton pass are still fine
Con: Don't see any

BW:
Ban Taunt + BPass, limit to one BPass user
Pro: Baton Pass Chains are gone, Celebi is still fine
Con: SmashPass is only nerfed, but still possible. The nerf looks good enough to me to not use SmashPass, but people may find a way.

ORAS:
Ban Taunt + BPass, ban geomancy
Pro: Geomancy pass is out, SmashPass is nerfed
Con: SmashPass is only nerfed, but still possible. The nerf looks good enough to me to not use SmashPass, but people may find a way.

 

[McMeghan]

Taunt + Baton Pass doesn't stop BellyPass in ADV; SmashPass in BW/ORAS and GeoPass in ORAS (Smeargle will just start running Dark Void/Spore over Taunt).
Note that Magic Bounce also lets you play around Phazers, without even needing any kind of Taunt user, so full BP will still be a problem in BW.

For the record, Smeargle is actually viable in ADV (it's high C-Rank in the Viability Rankings), mostly as a Lead Spike (Spore/Spikes/Endure/Explosion-Endeavor).

Oglemi, I could bother getting more BellyPass replays in ADV, but trust me, it's a very effective strategies a lot of players experienced first and second hand. Also, I'd rather get rid of every loopholes at once instead of delaying the inevitable, aka people digging for more ways to still get cheap wins after not Fully Effective bans.

I like Iconic's idea because, even if we lose some viable strategies, we get rid of every problematic issues across all generations. We still preserve the Dry Pass option for momentum/trap prevention and the SubPass option. It's also a simple ban in general.

Here are the collateral victims we will lose with this BP+Boost ban, as far as OU is concerned:

ADV

• Petaya Pass Jolteon (rare)
• Agility (Petaya) Pass Zapdos
• CM Pass Espeon (rare)
• SD Pass Celebi
• CM Pass Celebi
• SD Speed Boost Ninjask (rare)
• CM Pass Lunatone (uncommon)
• CM Pass Solrock (rare)

DPP

• Agility Zapdos (rare)
• SD Pass Scizor (rare)
• Agility Pass Scizor (rare)
• SD Pass Celebi (rare)
• CM Pass Celebi (rare)
• NP Pass Celebi (uncommon)
• SD Pass Gliscor (rare)
• RP Pass Gliscor (rare)
• NP Pass Togekiss (rare)

BW

• Quiver Pass Venomoth (rare)
  
• All kind of BP Mew (SD, NP, NitroCharge) (rare)
  
• CM Pass Espeon (rare)
• SD Pass Celebi (rare)
• NP Pass Celebi
• CM Pass Celebi (rare)

ORAS

• Quiver Pass Venomoth (rare)
• All kind of BP Mew (SD, NP, NitroCharge) (rare)
  
• CM Pass Espeon (rare)
• CM Pass Celebi
• NP Pass Celebi
• SD Pass Celebi (rare)
• SD Pass MAbsol (rare)
• PuP Pass MLopunny
• SD Pass Scolipede (rare)

Wouldn't mind some opinions from GSCers like Isa or Jorgen (granted he still has access here and check the forums) to ask if this should be considered for GSC.

 

[Tomahawk]

I'm not too much of a fan of a straight up boosting move + Baton Pass ban, those sets you listed are all fine in my opinion. Especially stuff like Nasty Plot Celebi, it's a fine set and I think if it's possible we should try to leave it alone. Obviously, if there is no better option it's fine.

I think this has been suggest before, I'm not sure, but what about a maximum amount of stat boosts? +3 maximum for example. This eliminates Gliscor Pass (+4), Belly Drum pass (+6), Geomancy Pass (+6), Smash Pass (+6 / +4), etc. It also still allows the likes of Celebi. You could also change it to +2 if you hate Quiver Dance Venomoth.

Also I can testify Mizuhime's Belly Drum Smeargle beating me easily.

 

[g]

I mean if we just ban status moves that boost Stats + Baton Pass we can save Baton Passers with Stat boosting berries and Power Up Punch Lopunny which are never members of Full BP Chains or SmashPass or Geopass shenanigans.
Would vanilla Baton Pass Scolipede be banned in this case?
We also don't ban nonsense like Scizor with BP + Steel Wing (which i dont think has ever seen use in Adv or any gen for what matters but would be illegal if Power Up Punch is included) or anything with Charge Beam + Baton Pass without incurring in a complex exceptions game.

Also adding that I know for a fact that some lower tiers in this generation have had problems with quickpass strategies like Geopass Smeargle in UU and Smashpass in NU (and PU) and this solution would be great for those as well as they could afford to free the abusers while still putting a definitive stop to the uncompetitive strategies.

 

[shrang]

IIRC SmashPass was banned in BW UU? If that's the case, why can't we just suspect test that again? In terms of GeoPass, there is literally only one Pokemon in OU that can learn Geomancy, and that's Smeargle. It'll be easy enough just to ban Geomancy, pretty much nothing else is affected (assuming OU).

 

[kokoloko]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hi-hello-this-is-a-new-clause-proposition.3506430/

still think this is the best way to go about it, don't care if it involves 'changing' mechanics, esp since we already do it w/ sleep clause.

sleep is broken as fuck when allowed to run rampant, but when nerfed, add a valuable aspect to the game. same can be said of bp. originally the clause was supposed to be only for current gen, but no reason it cant just be applied everywhere its needed tbh.

 

[Isa]

With regards to Baton Pass in GSC, Jorgen ran it in SPL very frequently during the initial weeks. He knows more about it than me.

That being said, given the lack of Taunt and the requirement of Roar/Whirlwind to avoid losing to Perish Trappers/Trappass Umbreon, I'd say Baton Pass isn't big enough of a problem to merit a suspect in my mind.

 

[Tomahawk]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hi-hello-this-is-a-new-clause-proposition.3506430/

still think this is the best way to go about it, don't care if it involves 'changing' mechanics, esp since we already do it w/ sleep clause.

sleep is broken as fuck when allowed to run rampant, but when nerfed, add a valuable aspect to the game. same can be said of bp. originally the clause was supposed to be only for current gen, but no reason it cant just be applied everywhere its needed tbh.

Agreed, this is what I was thinking about. I do like this clause since it bans the least stuff that doesn't need to be banned, though I'd say it needs to be changed a little to include Gliscor pass. Edit: Yes and Belly Drum Pass too.

 

[Vinc2612]

Gliscor Pass and BellyPass are not fixed but that's a good solution that I would support.

There goes the Smeargle ban in ADV / Taunt + BPass ban in DPP

McMeghan you say that Smeargle is viable in ADV (C rank) but then you say that you like the idea where Celebi and Zapdos are the collateral damages? Spiker lead Smeargle looks like a "less-worse" sacrifice.
Also I don't see a difference between "Belly Drum + BPass makes Smeargle broken" and "Sand Rush + Typing + Stats makes Excadrill broken". The not broken and viable is banned for the sake of preventing the broken part.

 

[kokoloko]

it does solve them lol

glisc pass is +4 and so is bellypass. you cant click bp at +3 or more.

i mean you can pass /one/ boost w/ glisc but thats hardly threatening.

 

[Tomahawk]

it does solve them lol

glisc pass is +4 and so is bellypass. you cant click bp at +3 or more.

i mean you can pass /one/ boost w/ glisc but thats hardly threatening.

This is the clause in the thread:

Using the move Baton Pass when three or more of your stats are at +1 or more is disallowed.

Gliscor is only going to boost two stats (Attack and Speed) and Belly Drum is only going to boost one. Unless you want to change it to +3 boosts in total, in which case that sounds like a solid clause to me.

Edit: Sounds like a fair clause too, only have Calm Mind Celebi / Espeon / etc. as collateral though, but not too much.

 

[kokoloko]

a mere human would be embarrassed by that,

fortunately, i am mighty.

ps. i think if you change it to 2+ stats, there's no additional collateral. i put three cause i had smash/quiver in mind.

 

[ryan]

why not just do the complex bans? these are all for old gens, barring ORAS where we can just do smashpass/geomancy bans if we want them. old gens are far less accessible, and they're only really played these days in tournaments, where people are going to know what you can and cannot use.