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UU Analyses Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW UU Analyses' started by kokoloko, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    This thread is for any analyses that have already passed QC or are on site.

    I've noticed in the other tiers that people have been commenting on threads that have already reached the DONE stage asking the OP to add a set or questioning the ones that are already there. This thread is to remedy this problem by allowing people to voice their concerns here, and then the QC team can look into the suggestion.

    So, in other words, do NOT post in a thread that is already past the QC stage asking for a set to be added or for a different EV spread to be the main one. Voice that concern here. Failure to do so may result in an infraction and a deletion of the post made. However, you are free to make suggestions about the slashing and the ordering of the sets in thread, and of course anything concerning the write-up including adding a counter, teammates, or including something in OO.

    It should also be noted that making piddly "This analysis is awesome" posts should be avoided as they only necro old threads and clutter the sub-forum (however if the write-up is truly exceptional I obviously don't care if you congratulate and praise the writer, just avoid necroing long-dead threads).

    This thread will also be for discussing analyses of Pokemon once they are on site.
  2. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Posting here to get the opinion of other QC members. I think we can all agree that Crobat is one of the most important Pokemon in the metagame right now, and as such, I would like to get answers on this quickly.

    The on-site spread for Crobat is currently 252 HP / 116 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe, however, this spread fails to OHKO 0/0 Scrafty even after Stealth Rock damage. This is not good, considering Scrafty could just Dragon Dance on the switch, then do so again as it tanks a Brave Bird, and proceed to OHKO Crobat with +2 Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt.

    I'm proposing we make the primary spread 176 HP / 192 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe. This spread guarantees the OHKO on 0/0 Scrafty after Stealth Rock damage while still hitting the same Speed benchmark (max base 115s).

    y/n?
  3. Nas

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    Yeah, that needs to be updated. 136 Hp / 232 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe might be worth considering because it guarantees the 2HKO on +1 BU Scrafty, yours only has a 90% to 2HKO.
  4. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    If you guys want, I could just do a Crobat revamp, since I'm writing the CB set anyway.

    Edit: Never mind, it covers pretty much every prominent fighting type already. Not sure why I assumed it didn't. Anyway, I like the 176 HP / 192 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe spread. The stronger spread isn't as appealing just because, even though the HP difference is pretty insignificant, it does let you survive a Scarfcross / mienshao Stone Edge 100% of the time after SR and a round of leftovers, which seems more relevant than the slightly increased chance to 2hko Scrafty. Either spread is fine, but given the general focus on defense the stallbreaker set has...
  5. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
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    Yeah we talked about it on IRC last night and I agree the best spread is the 176 HP / 192 Atk / 4 SpD / 136 Spe one. The extra bulk isn't that much useful and being able to take Scrafty down reliably is way better. I agree with FlareBlitz about not making the stronger one the main spread, as I think the 192 Atk spread fares already well enough against BU Scrafty.
  6. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Okay, I'll update it right now. I'll mention the stronger spread in AC.

    EDIT: Done.
  7. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Oh look we're about to change something on Crobat again!

    Due to this thread (read the OP, Eo makes some good points) bringing this to my attention, I would like for other QC member to give heavy consideration to making Black Sludge the standard "Leftovers" for Poison-types (with a brief mention of the pros and cons of using it instead of Leftovers in AC/OO). Most of the time it doesn't really matter, since you rarely switch defensive Poison-types into Trick users in UU, but it does seem better to use Black Sludge for those times where you do.

    Obviously this would be considered on a case-by-case basis, so here's a list of the viable Poison-types in UU (some of them might not even mention Leftovers in the analysis):

    • Roserade
    • Qwilfish
    • Nidoking
    • Nidoqueen
    • Crobat
    • Venomoth

    If we reach some consensus, I'll go through and edit them on the SCMS.
  8. Ginku

    Ginku Farbenprächtig
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    Those probably aren't even taking a trick in the vast majority of cases, but if they do I agree with eo (who is nonetheless garbage) that it's even less likely for it to be an advantage for your opponent, so go ahead I guess.
  9. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    You bums passed Druddigon too quickly.

    Choice Band Druddigon
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Fire Punch
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Superpower / ThunderPunch / Crunch
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sheer Force
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe

    Regarding this set, I think that Earthquake should replace Fire Punch with Mold Breaker as the only ability listed. Sheer Force is only benefiting Fire Punch on this set, and it boosts it to roughly the same power as Earthquake. The obvious question, then, is which of the two is a better move to be locked into. Fire Punch affords free switch-ins to pokes like Chandelure, Kingdra, and Flygon, to name a few, whereas Earthquake is a much safer move to be locked into, with Mold Breaker letting it hit Levitators like Flygon and Bronzong for sizable damage. Additionally, Mold Breaker has benefits like negating Solid Rock on Rhyperior, which you can now also hit for SE damage with Earthquake (You shouldnt use Superpower for anything but Snorlax) AND it lets you hit Shedinja through Wonder Guard. If you had any doubt before, that should convince you that Mold Breaker is the clear choice. Seriously though, this should be the set:

    Choice Band Druddigon

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Superpower / Dragon Claw
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Mold Breaker
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe

    Discuss.
  10. kokoloko

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    I'm fine with that as long as there's a mention of Mold Breaker + elemental punches in AC.
  11. hilarious

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    This is only slightly significant but it really should be said still I think...

    A few of the analysis for bulky attackers have inefficient EV spreads, like the ones that don't give a second thought and max out HP and attack or something like that. If a Pokemon has already high HP it should only give 230 or 240 or so HP EVs and the extra 16 or so EVs split into def and spdef to take hits optimally. Of course if you need the HP for 101 subs then you should keep it but apart from that its just a wasteful use of EVs. I only see azumarill as being wasteful it really should be using 236/8/252/8/0/4 instead of what it has on site it for the CB set. I am sure there might be other bad spreads but its not like i went searching for them or anything.
  12. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    What exactly do the 8 EVs in Def and SpDef accomplish? Unless they do something significant, I don't see the point in changing it. I did a quick calc and got the exact same result for 252/0 and whatever it was you had. If you want to take EVs off HP you should be putting them into Speed, where they might actually matter.
  13. Great Sage

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    In a vacuum, the proposed spread for Azumarill optimizes its defenses given 252 EVs; this is an objective, mathematical fact. Certain calculated damages may be the same due to rounding. Of course, it may be beneficial to invest EVs elsewhere, but for any defensive spread of 252 EVs, the spread listed on the site is suboptimal.

    However, considering environmental conditions, the spread listed on the site is better because 404 HP takes less damage from Stealth Rock than 400 HP on the order of one part in one hundred, while the proposed spread is defensively superior on the order of one part in one thousand. So the spread onsite should stay, but not for the reason RT. gave.
  14. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    The Claydol analysis that was recently uploaded is funky. For one, Toxic is slashed with Rapid Spin on the Dual Screens set when the analysis states very clearly that Rapid Spin is the one thing Claydol has over other Dual Screeners. Secondly, I swear I didn't see a Dual Screens set at all when I approved it; I don't think it should be there in the first place. Shall we remove it and leave the support set as the only set on-site?
  15. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    I was iffy about the Dual Screens from the very beginning, but I left it in just in case. However, it was there from the start and you approved it so I left it in, including that slash. So did PK even though he was unsure about, as well as Ginku. I was honestly a little suprised that you did approve it, but if you missed it it does explain things. If it means anything, I support its removal.
  16. Santuga

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    Ok so I was looking through the Speed Tiers list and I found some Pokemon which may benefit from an EV spread change. They are the following:

    Rock Polish Rhyperior, with the current spread, gets outsped by Modest Scarf Chandelure and Togekiss after +2 Spe. With the EV spread of 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 248 Spe, Rhyperior can outspeed these two Pokemon, whereas the current spread of 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 236 Spe can't

    The next ones come in a pair, because the changes have the same purposes. With Kingdra's EV spread being changed to max Speed, Porygon-Z and Zapdos, both having higher base Speed than Kingdra, should have an EV spread on their Agility sets that could outspeed Kingdra in the Rain (and Timid Scarf Raikou to an extent) Porygon-Z would have to run 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe (LO number, 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe is enough) and Zapdos would have to run 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe (LO number and odd HP, 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe is enough)
  17. kokoloko

    kokoloko supersmooth
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    Chandelure's analysis probably needs revisions. It's been sitting on GP for like a month or something and I'm pretty sure Sub is better than Specs and Flame Body is just as good as Flash Fire at the moment. The author went inactive over two weeks ago, though, so if anyone wants to take it over, let me know.

    QC should also comment on content.
  18. TheStarRapper

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    I would like to just say that for the final paragraph of Chandelure's UU set, the author refers to Wobbufett as the only recipient of Shadow Tag, while Gothitelle also has the same ability. I'll link to the newest GP check in that thread. Because both are BL I figured both should be mentioned. There is also a typo in that sentence, as it says both "the" and "a".
  19. kokoloko

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    I don't get the point of Bisharp's EVs. 128 hits 208, enough to beat min Speed Suicune I believe, but that's kinda pointless imo. I would rather go for 227 to beat Xatu and mainly Arcanine (so it can't interrupt your Sucker Punch with ExtremeSpeed) or run no Speed at all...

    Opinions?
  20. Omfuga

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    All right, I got a lot to say: for one thing, calm mind bronzong is, um, well I don't even get why it's a set; not only have I tested it, but on that off chance I face one it never does ANYTHING. Honestly, this set has horrible coverage, steel as a STAB used in general is off to me, and the fact that protect is on that, why? Also, I highly suggest protect on the standard zong over toxic because darm and victini like to switch it up between u-turn and v-create/flare blitz, so it can be problematic to deal with them switching in and out. Also, it scouts for the new oh-so-common hi jump kick trend in UU. Finally, with its lack of recovery zong appreciates the leftovers a lot more than you'd think, and it tends to let me live hits.

    Next is umbreon, I think foul play should be an option, but thats just my opinion.

    Rest talk raikou is the next thing I wanna talk about; I've literally never seen it on the ladder and for a good reason. For one thing it's very hard to keep ground types off the field at the end of the game because common pokemon like flygon and gligar tend to last very long, also, raikou's bulk doesnt in any way suffice for running rest-talk ESPECIALLY with max hp and speed over special attack making it slightly bulky, weak, and incapable of even touching ground types.

    Houndoom: Passho berry should honestly be self-explanatory as to why it's useless, but I also think sucker punch should be an option on the nasty plot set; I don't think houndoom is really all-that threatening, but sucker punch helps it a lot even on nasty plot with 4 attack.

    Mienshao: Mienshao should have reckless as an option under the scarfed set, it ohkos SO many more things with the boost than before; it becomes a potent flygon, heracross (read later and you'll see why), Kingdra, Raikou, Rotom-h, and togekiss revenge-killer. It kills all of those after rocks, and even kills flygon with hi jump kick without rocks around 90% of the time. Also, since heracross is #1, and thinks that even the scarf set cant ohko it, I suggest aerial ace, as I find it more useful than doing 40% to a gligar, or drain punch. Heracross is the most used pokemon, and it helps a lot to safely come in on it and have them almost never switch out.

    Heracross: I think pursuit should be an option on the banded set to trap chandelure locked into shadow ball, weak slowbros trying to regenerate, etc.

    Flygon: I think the scarfed set should run fire blast as a secondary move because it hits bronzong for 37% - 44% Whereas fire punch only hits for 28% - 34%, but it can't ohko escavalier with 4 spec attack, it has to run -defense /spec D, and it cant do as much to ferroseed as theyre mostly specially defensive, but considering bronzong is probably more common than both of those combined (I'm assuming) and it still does huge damage to them whereas with fire punch bronzong is almost a counter, I think it can be a superior choice, but due to its ups and downs I suggest making it a suggestion.

    Froslass: Honestly, I think the bulky set is stupid, but I've seen people make it work so I can't say its all bad, but I suggest putting enough speed to outspeed zoroark and mienshao. Really though, max special attack and speed is the set I see more often on smogon servers, and I think its a superior choice. It LOVES destiny bond, it gets at least 1 layer up and 2 up more often than not, its ice beam actually hits UU things hard, and froslass isnt that bulky anyway.

    Darmanitan: I think the sub encore set sucks, it can't touch chandelure at all, and it has a lot of bad coverage against a LOT of things, and encore is useless. On the scarfed set, I cannot stress this enough, rock slide is a better choice compared to eq. With 2 or 3 less base power (not sure how the rounding works), the ability to hit rotom-h and moltres, and the ability to hit many more things in the tier for super-effective damage than eq which only hits like 2 or 3, I think its easily superior, and its really weird that its not even an option.

    Pretty much that's it, I hope you take these into consideration, and I didn't mean to sound insulting if I did, I rely on some of the sets for tiers I dont know as well as UU, and I even use some for UU to see what gives the best coverage.

    Also I forgot to mention for darmanitan that if you use rock slide on a chandelure or a non-scarfed darmanitan theyre probably going to switch to something to take an EQ, so it becomes a safe play to nail the togekiss, rotom-h, zapdos, xatu, crobat, etc
  21. Nas

    Nas I bring the drama
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    Completely forgot about Defiant, ignore this.

    Also, agreeing with Kokoloko that Bisharp should at least outrun minimum Speed Arcanine.
  22. Santuga

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    Regarding the posts above about Bisharp, Extremespeed ALWAYS goes before Sucker Punch. It has +2 priority whereas Sucker Punch has +1. Just thought it would be worth to throw that out here
  23. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
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    I feel that the Rhyperior analysis may need another look-over. Nowhere on it do I find a mention of its Specially-Defensive set, which is arguably one of its best sets, and it doesn't exactly portray the modern metagame (no mentions of Scrafty, Mienshao, MoxieCross, Virizion, etc).
  24. kokoloko

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    Yeah honestly, despite how well written Rhyperior is, its pretty outdated at this point. I'll put it up for reservation.

    Also yeah I completely forgot about +2 priority ES... I'll talk to RT about it again.
  25. Nas

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    Me and PKGaming were discussing this, but Zapdos really needs to have SubRoost re-added (w/ HP Ice, not Toxic), and the set order should probably be Offensive/SubRoost/Specs/Defensive/SpDefensive/Agility.

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