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Venusaur (OU Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ShinyAzelf, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
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    Hi C&C, I am taking this Venusaur OU analysis over for Megan_Fox. Credits to him for the two sets!


    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/venusaur

    [Overview]

    <p>At first glance, it may seem unwise to use Venusaur over Roserade, who has higher speed, better Special Attack, and the ability to set up Toxic Spikes. However, Venusaur has a few unique tricks up its sleeves which allow it to function well in OU. Venusaur is much bulkier than Roserade, allowing it to take hits which Roserade isn't able to. Venusaur also has access to Swords Dance and Power Whip, turning it into a frightening sweeper. Other Grass-types such as Shaymin and Celebi don’t outclass Venusaur either, because Venusaur's Poison typing allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes, allowing teammates to switch in without being crippled by poison. Overall, Venusaur has its own niche, allowing it to function well in OU.</p>

    [SET]
    name: OU Leech Seed
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Leaf Storm / Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Sludge Bomb
    item: Leftovers / Black Sludge
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 176 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Venusaur can preform greatly as a Leech Seeder, thanks to its great bulk, coupled with the ability to incapacitate a counter or check with Sleep Powder. Leech Seed provides Venusaur with some form of recovery, while weakening the opposing Pokemon at the same time. Leaf Storm offers a powerful STAB move that hits many Pokemon hard, but lowers its Special Attack after every use. Grass Knot is a great alternative, still hitting quite hard, thanks to plenty of heavy Pokemon that reside in the tier. Hidden Power Fire allows Venusaur to hit Steel-types who would otherwise wall this set, such as Scizor. Since Scizor is one of the most common switch-ins to Venusaur, and can also not get harmed by Leech Seed thanks to U-turn, it can easily switch in and hit Venusaur hard or allow the opposing team to gain momentum. Sludge Bomb can be used instead of Hidden Power Fire for a secondary STAB move, but Venusaur loses out on the ability to hit Steel-types.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Hidden Power Ground is an option in the last slot to hit Heatran. If it is used, Timid along with 252 Speed EVs should be used to outspeed Heatran, and be able to nail it with Hidden Power Ground. Note that a lot of bulk will be sacrificed if Venusaur is to run maximum Speed. Synthesis can be used over Leech Seed, as it offers more recovery. Unfortunately, sandstorm is a common effect in the metagame, and very often, Venusaur will only be healing a meager 33% health. The EVs are tailored to give Venusaur a lot of special bulk, while being able to outspeed Suicune with 4 Speed EVs, Gyarados, Rotom-A, and Metagross with 132 Speed EVs. The 24 Special Attack EVs allow Venusaur to break Gengar's Substitute with Hidden Power Fire.</p>

    <p>Unless Hidden Power Ground is used, Heatran is a great counter, being able to switch in on anything but Sleep Powder (which can be easily dealt with using a status absorber) and force it out with a STAB Fire-type attack. Infernape functions similarly, being able to outspeed Venusaur and take it out with Fire Blast. Bulky Gyarados is a good teammate to counter the aforementioned threats, being able to take Fire Blast easily while also being immune to Earth Power (in Heatran's case). Gyarados can force both of them out, and use Dragon Dance on the switch. Neither Pokemon has anything that can be used to threaten Gyarados with bar the very rare Hidden Power Electric.</p>

    [SET]
    name: OU Swords Dance
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Power Whip
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Venusaur can effectively run a Swords Dance set, and is not outclassed by other Grass-types because neither Shaymin or Celebi can run a viable Swords Dance set, while other Swords Dance sweepers such as Lucario do not have the bulk that Venusaur has. Sleep Powder allows Venusaur to incapacitate a check or counter that switches in. This gives Venusaur a free turn to set up Swords Dance without being hurt. From there, Venusaur can fire off powerful STAB Power Whip backed by 526 Attack and Life Orb. Earthquake provides good coverage alongside Power Whip, hitting Steel-type Pokemon for super effective damage, with the exception of Skarmory, Bronzong, Scizor, and Forretress.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>To show how powerful Venusaur is after a Swords Dance, here are some calculations.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252/252+ Blissey: 94.7% - 111.5%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252/252+ Hippowdon: 114.3% - 134.8%</li>
    <li>+1 Life Orb Power Whip vs 248/252+ Gyarados: 59.5% - 70.2%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252/252+ Rotom-A: 84.2% - 99.7%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252/4 Gliscor: 86.4% - 102%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 12/0 Breloom:85.2% - 100%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 0/0 Gengar 107.3% - 126.4%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 240/0 Machamp 118.1% - 138.8%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 4/0 Celebi / Shaymin 54.4% - 64%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 248/228+ Zapdos: 39.9% - 47%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 248/0 Zapdos: 55.6% - 65.8%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Earthquake vs 248/0 Scizor 60.6% - 71.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Earthquake vs 252/224+ Jirachi 75.7% - 89.1%</li>
    <li>+2 Life Orb Earthquake vs 0/0 Jirachi 122% - 143.7%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Occa Berry is an option over Life Orb so that Venusaur to take a Fire-type move from the likes of Choice Scarf Heatran, and take it out with Earthquake. Venusaur outspeeds non-Choice Scarf Heatran and Adamant Lucario, allowing Venusaur to nail them both with Earthquake before either of them can attack. Sludge Bomb can be used over Sleep Powder in order for Venusaur to 2HKO Shaymin and Celebi, and also OHKO Breloom, even with a Jolly nature. Return can be used to hit Dragonite, Zapdos, and other Grass-types for more damage. The EV spread is a standard offensive spread, maximizing Attack and Speed so Venusaur can hit harder and outspeed more foes, while the remaining 4 EVs are put into HP to increase its bulk.</p>

    <p>Most Pokemon will take a lot of damage from a boosted Power Whip. Therefore, not many Pokemon can be called counters. Celebi is a great counter, since it resists both Power Whip and Earthquake, is able to switch out to avoid falling asleep if necessary thanks to Natural Cure, and has access to Psychic and Recover, allowing it to hurt Venusaur, and heal itself when in need. Since Celebi and Skarmory are both problematic Pokemon, Choice Scarf Scizor and Magnezone can become great assets. With a Choice Scarf, Scizor can easily switch into a Psychic without fear of getting KOed by Hidden Power Fire the next turn, and proceed to U-turn to either knock out Celebi, or gain momentum. If the opponent also happens to have Skarmory, Scizor can U-turn out to Magnezone, who traps Skarmory thanks to Magnet Pull, and can KO it with Thunderbolt.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Venusaur does not have many viable options in OU. Growth can be used to boost Venusaur's Special Attack, and with a set of Grass Knot, Sludge Bomb, and Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Ground, Venusaur should not be taken lightly. Hidden Power Ice is another option, hitting Zapdos, Dragonite, and Grass-types hard. Light Screen can be used to lower the damage output of special attacks that are directed at your team. Roar can be used, allowing Venusaur to phaze threats. Finally, Toxic can be used to cripple a bulky wall, preventing them from doing their job.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Though Venusaur has quite a few counters that can dispose of it, all checks and counters must beware of a potential Sleep Powder, which could severely cripple them. For that reason, it would be wise to switch in a status absorber to take the Sleep Powder before switching to your counter. Once Sleep Clause has been activated, Venusaur becomes much easier to counter, as there are a number of Pokemon who resists both of Venusaur's attacks. Skarmory is without a doubt the best counter to the Swords Dance set. Even boosted Power Whips don’t bother it thanks to its typing, which 4x resists Power Whip. It is also immune to Earthquake, meaning that there is nothing Venusaur can do to hurt Skarmory. In return, Skarmory can easily set up three layers of Spikes if Venusaur decides to stay in, Roosting when getting low on health, and either severely damaging Venusaur with Brave Bird, or phazing it with Whirlwind. Zapdos can switch into Venusaur, and either set up a Substitute or fire off a powerful Heat Wave. Dragonite is also not weak to any of Venusaur's attacks, and can blast Venusaur away with Outrage. Note that Venusaur may carry Hidden Power Ice, which will severely hurt Dragonite, but not knock it out. Choice Scarf Heatran can switch in on anything but Earthquake and Hidden Power Ground, and use Fire Blast. Celebi is immune to Leech Seed, resists Grass- and Ground-type attacks, and can hurt Venusaur with STAB super effective Psychic.</p>
  2. Heist

    Heist
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    is jolly tyranitar even worth outspeeding? 192 spe seems like way too much of an investment for me, and i would never run that much when i want more bulk to take stuff like +1 cune ice beams. when using venusaur, i use 24 spatk and pump the rest in spdef. 24 spatk allows you to always break gengar's substitutes with hp fire and it deserves ac at least.

    im really questioning the swords dance set. its walled by skarm, celebi, shaymin, dragonite, bronzong, gengar etc etc [obviously gengar doesnt like taking boosted power whips]

    looks good otherwise
  3. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    nah ill add 24 SpA into the main set, thats a good point. You also raise a good point with Jolly Tyranitar. Ill look to see if there's a better speed benchmark before running no speed. thanks.

    and yea I expected people to question the SD set. While its true that its walled by several things, it can still be a threat. Celebi and Shaymin are both 2HKO'd by a +2 Power Whip and as you said Gengar doesn't appreciate them either. It's also important to mention that often times one of the Pokemon that can switch into Venusaur will be put to sleep. I'm still unsure of where it stands in terms of meriting an analysis but i can personally attest that the set does work.

    EDIT: ok EV spread updated. Enough to outspeed 4 Speed Suicune, 132 Speed Metagross, 4 Speed Rotom-A and 4 speed Gyarados
  4. Forte.EXE

    Forte.EXE

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    Other than Sleep Powder and Poison immunity, what does Venusaur have over Shaymin? Shaymin has Seed Flare, higher base stats, and Natural Cure. If the Leech Seed set does get approved, you're realky going to want to emphasize differences between Venusaur and Shaymin (possibly Sceptile too, since it's the fastest SubSeeder that can be used in OU).
  5. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    I expected comparisons to Roserade, but Shaymin k. Venusaur has: the Ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, Sleep Powder (huge), Fighting resist, 4x resist to Grass, neutrality to Bug, and Overgrow (I guess it can help in a pinch). It has more than enough to differentiate itself from Shaymin.
  6. ENZ0

    ENZ0
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    Yeah beast set when used right. I can't say the same thing of the SD, but I've been surprised by so many different pokemon that I'm just gonna say it might work lol.

    THE KEY REASON TO USE VENUSAUR OVER ROSERADE IS THAT VENASAUR IS 1000X BULKIER (for anyone who doubts its effectiveness in comparison)
  7. sensible

    sensible

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    I don't think SD set is really gonna work in the present metagame. With Salamence gone, Grass types are much more prevalent, and they resist the entire set. Celebi is also able to completely wall it, as well as KO with Psychic, thereby bypassing the potential threat of Sludge Bomb. Also Skarmory, the premier Physical Wall is completely immune to it. Scarf Heatran also doesn't fraid of anythin (bar EQ) and can KO with Fire Blast if it switches in on Power Whip (which it 4x resists). I could go on, but you can catch my drift ;)
  8. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Set 1 looks good, I've used it a few times. Set 2, I'm not entirely sure about it, although it doesn't look bad on paper. Megan, could you post some calculations against common Pokemon on set 2?
  9. HART4FLOON

    HART4FLOON

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    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey: 94.7% - 111.5%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon: 114.3% - 134.8%
    +1 Life Orb Power Whip vs 248 HP / 252 Def Impish Gyarados: 59.5% - 70.2%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rotom-A: 84.2% - 99.7%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 4 Def Jolly Gliscor: 86.4% - 102%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 0 HP / 0 Def Naive Magnezone: 58.7% - 69.4%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 248 HP / 228 Def Bold Zapdos: 39.9% - 47%

    And just for teh lulz
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Celebi: 33.2% - 39.1%
    +2 Life Orb Power Whip vs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Magikarp: 314.8% - 371.3%

    Yeah, these are just random calcs...

    But basically, I think the SD set has potential, considering the amount of damage it can do even to things that resists its STAB.
  10. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    lol thanks, id have to clarify that in the future otherwise.

    Sure, in addition to the ones Hart4Floon posted, ill add some more.

    K, thanks for the Calcs, i might add some of these into the OP in addition to some that ill add. Also, against magnezone, you have EQ so that calc isn't necessary.

    EDIT: calcs edited into OP
  11. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    I added Return into AC for SD Saur as I feel it can be useful for hitting mainly Dragonite, but it also scores a OHKO on minimally Defensive invested Breloom and hits stuff like Zapdos and other grass types slightly harder. Anyways, there doesn't seem to be much more input, so im gonna go ahead and...

    [​IMG]

    Or

    Approved (1/3)
  12. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur GO GOOMY

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    I agree with the first set as it works well and I have used it too, but set 2 seems to have some issue.

    Possibly remove Sleep Powder for a little better neutral coverage on your attacks, by adding Return. Return is possibly the best Normal-type move ever. It will majorly help in the form of neutral coverage.
  13. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Wrong on 3 counts.

    1: Venusaur doesn't learn Head Smash.
    2: I think you mean Skull Bash.
    3: Skull Bash sucks, it's 100 BP normal move with a charge turn that provides only a 1-stage Defense burst. It's strictly inferior to Return.
  14. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    I really don't think Sludge Bomb is useful on the main set. It's only Super Effective on Grasses, which are mauled by HP Fire anyway.
  15. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    The point of Sludge Bomb is to provide Venusaur with a secondary STAB. Outside of hitting Grass types, it hits the opponent relatively hard without resorting to Leaf Storm, which has a SpA drop. Although, you raise a good point and i might agree with you. I'll probably move it to an AC mention, but ill try Sludge Bomb out a bit before officially deciding to.
  16. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    Zapdos, Dragonite, somewhat bulky celebi and shaymin don't really care about hp fire that much without much s.atk evs and will wittle you down and win eventually assuming something else it asleep, 30% chance to poison, having the option to use a well powered move without having to nerf your stats in the process...

    Just off the top off my head. Sludge Bomb seems too valuable to be relegated to AC imo.

    I'd probably give synthesis an AC mention over leech seed in the first set though.
  17. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Sludge Bomb hits Grass-types about twice as hard as Hidden Power Fire (STAB, super effective Sludge Bomb is 90 BP x 1.5 x 2 = 270 BP, while super effective HP Fire is 70 x 2 = 140 BP). It really doesn't matter that Sludge Bomb is only hitting Grass-types, since on a Leech Seed set, you'd really want to hit Grass-types hard while everything else (Apart from Tentacruel) will suffer from Leech Seed.
  18. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    I'm also going to add to what the above two posters by saying that Sludge Bomb also is most the superior move assuming you get the opposing Steel type out of the way (Which often times does happen because of Sleep Powder). I'm going to keep it where it is.

    And ill add Synthesis to AC Pana
  19. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    [​IMG]

    Or

    Approved (2/3)
  20. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Go. Make it blue prefix.
  21. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    done will write up asap
  22. smashlloyd20

    smashlloyd20

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    Wow, totally disregarded Sludge Bomb's poison chance. It seems like a much better move now ;)
  23. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Finally.....

    Good to see that players other than me see how good Venusaur can be in the current OU metagame and that it differentiates itself from fellow Grass-types Celebi, Shaymin, and Roserade. I have used the Leech Seeder with good success(admittedly, the EV spread I used is inferior though).

    I don't know how far along you are on this and I'm not QC or anything, but on the Leech Seed set, wouldn't Venusaur benefit a little better from Black Sludge? Against a vanilla Trick, it probably wouldn't matter. But, if you have a teammate who can take the initial Tricking of a Choice item, you can bring Venusaur in later on a second Trick. At absolute worst, you get an extra 6% damage(if they Trick a third time). You'd get 6% residual if they decide to just keep it. Thoughts?
  24. Megan_Fox

    Megan_Fox

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    its a good point, ill Slash it
  25. ShinyAzelf

    ShinyAzelf
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    Written up, don't know how damage calcs are inserted. I'm pretty sure there's more to it...

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