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Victreebel

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by New World Order, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    QC Approvals: PK Gaming, zdrup15, Pocket
    GP Checks: NatGeo/sirndpt, Calm Pokemaster

    [Overview]

    <p>Plants get chewed on by lizards; it's a sad but true fact of nature. Similarly, Victreebel gets eaten alive by a fat green dinosaur named Venusaur in the OU environment, and often gets a bad rap for being outclassed. The thing is, Victreebel isn't even outclassed by Venusaur! While it is true that they have a similar typing, ability, and movepool, Victreebel possesses many qualities that justify its use over Venusaur. Being outsped by a 220-pound quadruped is indeed embarrassing, but Victreebel's base 105 Attack and 100 Special Attack stats make it a superior mixed sweeper. Furthermore, the pitcher plant has access to powerful moves, such as Power Whip and Weather Ball, that Venusaur would stink up a garden to get. It is difficult for Victreebel to set up due to its unimpressive defensive stats, but if you let it come in safely, it will eat your team alive and leave nothing but a pool of nectar.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Growth Sweeper
    move 1: Leaf Blade
    move 2: Weather Ball
    move 3: Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Growth
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Naive
    evs: 120 Atk / 136 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Feast your eyes on one of the most dangerous mixed sweepers in the game, then cry your eyes dry as Victreebel feasts on your team. After a Growth boost in the sun, Victreebel can 2HKO every Pokemon in OU bar Heatran between Leaf Blade, Weather Ball, and Sludge Bomb. Leaf Blade is a powerful physical STAB which also happens to crush Politoed and Tyranitar, two of sun teams' greatest nemeses. Weather Ball becomes a powerful 100 Base Power, Fire-type, pseudo-STAB move underneath the sun. Sludge Bomb rounds off the set as a powerful special STAB, granting coverage against the Dragon-types that resist the Grass / Fire combination. Growth takes all these moves and kicks them into high gear. While Victreebel can rarely find an opportunity to use Growth due to its unimpressive 80 / 65 / 60 defensive stats, if it does manage to set up, it can easily close out the game. For reference, the below damage calculations showcase Victreebel's destructive power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Damage calculations:</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>+2 Leaf Blade vs. 252/252+ Blissey 74.8% - 88%</li>
    <li>+1 Leaf Blade vs. 252/252+ Politoed 99% - 117.2%</li>
    <li>+1 Leaf Blade vs. 252/0 Tyranitar 100% - 117.8%</li>
    <li>+1 Leaf Blade vs. 252/252+ Hippowdon 68.6% - 80.5%</li>
    <li>+2 Sludge Bomb vs. 4/0 Latios 87.7% - 103.6%</li>
    <li>+2 Sludge Bomb vs. 252/0 Latias 62.9% - 74.2%</li>
    <li>+2 Sludge Bomb vs. 248/8 Gyarados 72.5% - 85.5%</li>
    <li>+2 Weather Ball vs. 248/0 Volcarona 79.4% - 93.5%</li>
    <li>+0 Weather Ball vs. 252/252+ Skarmory 86.2% - 101.8%</li>
    <li>+0 Weather Ball vs. 252/252+ Jirachi 56.9% - 67.3%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Maximum Speed EVs and a Naive nature allow Victreebel to outspeed Choice Scarf Terrakion and Speed tie with opposing Victreebel. The given Attack and Special Attack EVs allow Victreebel to score some crucial KOs, such as an OHKO on Latios with a +2 Sludge Bomb after Stealth Rock, as well as OHKOs on 252/0 Tyranitar and 252/252+ Politoed with +1 Leaf Blade. You can opt for a Lum Berry instead of Life Orb, but Victreebel's most important trait is its damage output, and anything that jeopardizes this potentially makes it outclassed by Venusaur. As an extra note, players rarely try to status Victreebel, and would much rather just go for the KO.</p>

    <p>Hidden Power Ground can be used to hit Heatran, and Hidden Power Ice can be used to KO Dragon-types more reliably. However, Sludge Bomb is overall a more consistent move than the aforementioned options. Sucker Punch can be used to ensure Victreebel isn't vulnerable outside of sun, but the main options are too important to give up. Sleep Powder can give Victreebel more setup opportunities, and can also cripple its checks and counters, such as Heatran and Latias, but losing any of its coverage moves would drastically cut its effectiveness. Finally, Power Whip can be used instead of Leaf Blade as the physical STAB, but it is illegal with Weather Ball, and Hidden Power Fire is an ineffective coverage move.</p>

    <p>Victreebel is rather lackluster if you don't build a strong sun team around it. As with any sun team, the harbinger of Drought, Ninetales, is mandatory. As mentioned before, Heatran is the only relevant Pokemon in OU capable of walling Victreebel, so it would be advisable to pack either a Dugtrio to trap and KO the lava beast, or a powerful physical attacker such as Infernape or Arcanine to demolish it. With proper entry hazard support, Victreebel is almost certain to plow through the opposing team if it sets up. Forretress is a common entry hazard user that finds its way onto sun teams thanks to its access to Rapid Spin. Speaking of setting up, our carnivorous plant has it tough finding an opportunity to brandish Growth. Wobbuffet offers Victreebel many setup opportunities with Shadow Tag and Encore.<p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Mixed
    move 1: Power Whip
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Naive
    evs: 148 Atk / 112 SpA / 248 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Victreebel often finds it difficult to make use of Growth due to its pathetic bulk, so this set aims to hit hard off the bat rather than attempt to set up and sweep. Power Whip is a vicious physical STAB that can OHKO Politoed and Tyranitar after Stealth Rock even without a boost. Under the sun, Hidden Power Fire acts as a pseudo-STAB in place of Weather Ball, which is illegal alongside Power Whip. Sludge Bomb is a powerful STAB move that allows Victreebel to hit the Dragon-types that resist its other moves hard. Last but not least, Sleep Powder is a handy utility move that can cripple anything that walls the man-eating plant, such as Heatran.<p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Alternatively, you could go with a combination of Leaf Blade and Weather Ball instead of Power Whip and Hidden Power Fire. However, Leaf Blade lacks the power necessary to OHKO Tyranitar and Politoed without a boost, which makes it an inferior option. Lum Berry can be used instead of Life Orb, but this set absolutely needs raw power, even more so than the previous set. Hidden Power Ground and Hidden Power Ice are usable to hit Heatran and Dragon-types respectively, but Hidden Power Fire offers much better coverage and becomes a pseudo-STAB underneath the sun.</p>

    <p>As expected, Ninetales is Victreebel's top teammate, as it brings the permanent sunlight necessary for Victreebel to function. As this set is more of a hit-and-run Pokemon and is rather frail, Wish support from the likes of Chansey and Blissey goes a long way. Forretress also slides in as a Rapid Spin user, who also happens to carry all forms of entry hazards to help Victreebel secure KOs. Heatran, again, walls this set with ease. Dugtrio, Arcanine, Darmanitan, and Infernape are all common sun Pokemon that can deal with Heatran. Finally, Dragon-types such as Dragonite and Latios can take an unboosted Sludge Bomb with ease. As such, reliable checks to Dragon-types, such as Mamoswine and Jirachi, should be employed. Jirachi also doubles as a useful Wish passer.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Attacker
    move 1: Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
    move 2: Sludge Bomb
    move 3: Weather Ball
    move 4: Hidden Power Ground / Growth
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Victreebel's defining feature is its mixed attacking capabilities, but its special attacking capabilities are often overlooked. Boasting a powerful special STAB in Leaf Storm backed by passable Special Attack, this behemoth is more than capable of forcing its way through potential checks and counters. If Leaf Storm's Special Attack drop is not your thing, you can use Giga Drain instead, sacrificing immense power for reliability and the ability to heal. Neither Leaf Storm nor Giga Drain are accessible for Victreebel's arch-rival, Venusaur, which further consolidates Victreebel's legitimacy on an OU sun team. The mean scary pitcher plant also wields a powerful STAB Sludge Bomb and a powerful coverage move in Weather Ball, which recieves a pseudo-STAB boost in the sun. Hidden Power Ground rounds off the set and gives Victreebel the means to take out Heatran. Growth can be used in place of Hidden Power Ground if you opt to use Giga Drain, however. At first glance, this turns Victreebel into an inferior Venusaur, but thanks to Giga Drain, Victreebel is surprisingly self-sustaining.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Maximum Special Attack and Speed EVs obviously maximize Victreebel's offensive capabilities; defensive investment wouldn't be of much help due to Victreebel's laughable defenses. Hidden Power Ice can be used to strike down Dragon-types such as Dragonite and Salamence, but Sludge Bomb is often enough to get the job done. Sleep Powder is another useful move that can bail you out in a pinch. SolarBeam can be used as a Grass-type STAB as well, but Venusaur is a much better user of this move.</p>

    <p>As with any other Chlorophyll sweeper, Ninetales's Drought is an absolute must. Stealth Rock and Spikes are also useful commodities that take advantage of the switches that this set forces to wear down the opponent. Forretress and Donphan are common choices for setting up entry hazards, and both provide Rapid Spin support for Ninetales at the same time. Without its trusty Power Whip or Leaf Blade, Victreebel needs to be backed by a powerful physical attacker, such as Infernape, Darmanitan, or Arcanine to deal with special walls such as Chansey and Blissey. Furthermore, this set is worn down very quickly, so Wish support from the likes of Chansey and Blissey will certainly be helpful.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Victreebel doesn't really have a niche in the metagame besides that of a Chlorophyll sweeper, and therefore it doesn't have many other options to work with. Encore can grant Victreebel a free turn to set up, but Sleep Powder usually accomplishes this and more. Wring Out can also be useful for finishing off a foe, but it doesn't fit any better than the main moves.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Heatran is capable of walling most sets and cremating Victreebel with a scorching-hot, sun-boosted Fire-type STAB move. Dragon-types such as Dragonite and Latias can also wall Victreebel to an extent, although both must be wary of a KO from Sludge Bomb after Stealth Rock damage. Chansey and Blissey wall the special set all day long, although switching into a Power Whip or boosted Leaf Blade isn't the brightest idea. While there are Pokemon that can shrug off Victreebel's attacks, almost all of them must avoid Sleep Powder, which would likely put them out of commission for the duration of the match.</p>

    <p>Disregarding opposing Chlorophyll sweepers, there are very few Pokemon that can match Victreebel's Speed. Add that to Victreebel's immense offensive potential, and you're almost certain to lose if you see the words "Victreebel used Growth!". One way to get around this is to bypass Victreebel's Speed advantage through the use of priority. Ice Shard from Mamoswine or Weavile equates to certain death for Victreebel, as does Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch. The best way to deal with Victreebel, though, is to exploit its low bulk and reliance on the sun. As long as you can maintain the weather advantage, Victreebel shouldn't cause any major headaches. Applying sufficient offensive pressure and giving Victreebel no breathing space also ensures the opponent wont be able to click Growth without repercussions.</p>
  2. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I think the order of Power Whip and Leaf Blade should be swapped, it could be misleading otherwise. That way it'd imply Leaf Blade + Weather Ball is a combo, as is Power Whip + Hidden Power Fire.
  3. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Run Leaf Blade/Weather Ball/Sludge Bomb through Honkos calculator, with max speed and varying offensive spreads its brutally powerful after a gorwth in UU and RU and I want to see how it does in OU.

    EDIT: Ran the calcs for you, the only things that arent 2HKOd by the following spread:172 Atk EVs (boosting), 140 SpA EVs are Heatran (fully walls), and bulky Dragonite with Multiscale intact.
  4. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    If he's using Honko's calculator, I'd assume not :)
  5. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    Sucker Punch is also available, for the record.
    Also, why not a special set? I run
    @LO
    44 HP/252 Spa/212+ Spe
    -Growth
    -Solarbeam/Energy Ball
    -Weather Ball
    -HP Ground
    212+ edges out the 500 notch by two points, max Spa for power, etc
    I don't see the point in the mixed set, it's not that good and Vic really appriciates the 100% acc solarbeam and moar spa power.
    It's a late-game cleaner, after weather starters are gone.
    Also, mention Colbur Wobb, as it reliably takes out Ttar and Toed, even living a Specs Pump and a CB Crunch
  6. cartercr

    cartercr

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    The only problem I see is that if you lose the weather war, Vic is pretty much done. At least Venusaur still can do something if the sun isn't shining. Vic loses both Chlorophyll and Weather Ball.
  7. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Whaa? Victreebel is far more competent than Venusaur outside of the sun, especially the all out attacker set. While Venusaur is just going to be beaten down by opposing sweepers, Victreebel can take out Starmie/ Latias/ Latios with Sucker Punch. Second of all, both Tyranitar and Politoed fear Power Whip/ Leaf Blade, so the weather war should be non issue.
  8. Lesser Smaug

    Lesser Smaug

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    Power Whip and Hidden Power Fire should lose slashes in my opinion, as Leaf Blade already packs solid power and doesn't miss 15% of the time, while Weather Ball works in other weathers.

    Also, I doubt Latias is going to be beaten by Sucker Punch, since it usually sets up Calm Minds and attempts to sweep your team.
  9. shrang

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    Power Whip and Growth were illegal together, IIRC.
  10. New World Order

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    I'm pretty sure Power Whip is an egg move, while Growth is a relearner move on Weepy, don't see how they're illegal
  11. cartercr

    cartercr

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    Only problem is that weather ball will change types in other weathers, making it an inconsistent move.
  12. Lesser Smaug

    Lesser Smaug

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    Weather Ball may be inconsistent, but that doesn't exactly justify using Hidden Power Fire. The only situation where Hidden Power Fire is useful is when I want to beat Ferrothorn, who will almost certainly screw you with Gyro Ball or Thunder Wave anyway if the sun isn't up.

    At least with Weather Ball, you can adapt to the weather.
  13. HoiPolloi

    HoiPolloi

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    For the Power Whip set:
    100 Atk is enough to KO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Politoed after Stealth Rock. Hippowdon can't be KOed by any spread (except with 252 Atk Adamant Choice Band and 2 layers of Spikes). I think without Sleep Powder Victreebel won't be able to set up a Growth thanks to its extreme frailness. This set can kill every Politoed an Tyranitar and outspeed Scarf Terrakion:

    Victreebel (F) @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 100 Atk / 160 SAtk / 248 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Growth
    - Sleep Powder
    - Power Whip
    - Hidden Power [Fire]


    But this set is completely walled by any Dragon type and Heatran. I'm not really sure if Victreebel is OU material.
  14. Tomahawk

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    I'd much rather outspeed Scarf Terrakion (or Landorus) than OHKO Hippowdon at +2. For one, Terrakion is way more common than Hippowdon is (Hippo is UU). Second, if you Growth while Hippowdon switches in, you only get a +1 boost, meaning you still don't KO. Even if you're at +2, they change weather and can just switch to Latias or Volcarona or something to take the Leaf Blade and force you out.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I second HoiPolloi's spread - it dispatches the 2 prominent weather inducers after SR and scores a 2HKO on Hippowdon anyways. Most importantly, it outruns Scarf Terrakion.

    As for your Leaf Blade spread, try this: 116 Atk / 144 SAtk / 248 Spe; Naive Nature. When I damage calced, Victreebel required 144 SAtk to OHKO Latios with +2 LO Sludge Bomb after SR. 248 Spe makes sure you always beat Scarf Terrakion to the punch. 116 Atk lets you OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def TTar and 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed with +1 LO Leaf Blade. +0 Leaf Blade also just barely scores an OHKO on Terrakion without Rocks.

    Hippowdon (252 HP / 252+ Def) is always 2HKOed by +1 Leaf Blade and OHKOed by +2 Leaf Blade (after Rocks) 68% of the time.

    I think an all-out Special Attacker may warrant a set. Seriously, if Shiftry with 90 SpA can cause so much damage with Leaf Storm, so could Victreebel with its 100 SpA. Plus, Victreebel has a pretty solid alternative STAB Sludge Bomb to lean on, so it doesn't have to spam Leaf Storm all the time.

    Victreebel @ Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe | Timid Nature
    ~ Sludge Bomb
    ~ Leaf Storm
    ~ Weather Ball
    ~ Hidden Power [Ground]


    Max Speed, because it lets it outrun Scarf Latios with HP Fire. The fact that it has Weather Ball eases its movepool so that it can pack HP Ground for Heatran. It pretty much 2HKOs everything, except for Latias, Chansey, Blissey, ParaShuffler Dragonite. Even 252 HP / 252+ SpD TTar is 2HKOed with Leaf Storm after Rocks, so it doesn't need Low Kick like Shiftry.

    EDIT: So I see you already have a Special Attacker set, my b. Again, I would give it 248 Spe to outrun Scarf Terrakion. Definitely remove Energy Ball for Giga Drain. The power difference is minimal and the HP recovery is too good with Life Orb. I'd at least give Leaf Storm an AC mention since it has the raw power (unlike Giga Drain) and consistency (unlike weather-dependent Solar Beam). I would also at least give an AC mention that either HP Ground or Sludge Bomb can go over Growth for an all-out attacking Special Sweeper, since setting up Growth is difficult with Victreebel.
  16. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Sorry, I meant Naive Nature, not Rash. All the calcs are calculated with Naive.

    If you feel that the Special Attacker set is outclassed by Venusaur, try the all-out special attacking Victreebel that I've posted above. Other than the strong Weather Ball rather than HP Fire, another advantage is its access to Leaf Storm; Venusaur either has to rely on the weather-dependent Solarbeam or weak Energy Ball.

    Make sure to edit all the Speed EVs to at least outrun Terrakion. Also the slash order should be HP Fire / Weather Ball for the all-out mix attacker, since Power Whip and Weather Ball is incompatible together. Personally, I'd just go with Power Whip & HP Fire, since you need the raw power of Power Whip to get past many threats, especially without the Growth boost. Also Sludge Bomb should be on the 3rd slot, whereas Sucker Punch should be slashed with Sleep Powder. Sucker Punch isn't hitting anything notable, whereas Sludge Bomb is necessary to deal with Dragons and Grass Types (HP Fire doesn't cut it). Power Whip already 2HKOs Gengar, if that's what you're aiming for; and Sucker Punch doesn't OHKO Latios / Latias.

    I recommend this EV spread for the all-out mix attacker: 148 Atk / 112 SpA / 248 Spe. Power Whip has a good chance in 2-shotting Chansey after it switches into SR twice / SR + 1 Spikes. Blissey is 2HKOed after Rocks. It also kills Politoed, Tyranitar, and Jellicent after SR just like before; 2HKOs Hippowdon no problem. It has just enough SpA to 2HKO dragons with Sludge Bomb after Rocks and OHKO Ferrothorn / Skarmory with Sun-boosted HP Fire after Rocks. The same HP Fire is a 3HKO on specially-defensive Jirachi, which isn't bad.
  17. New World Order

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    Okay, update! I've decided to get rid of the All Out Attacker set because I realized its pretty stupid. As its basically one of the other sets with Sucker Punch instead of Growth / Sleep Powder. I found a mistake in the first set, as HoiPolli forgot that HP Fire lowered Vic's physical attack by 1 point. There also really is no point of using 248 Spe, as Speed creep means the standard will end up as 252 Spe anyways. Special Attack EVs are in excess, especially on the Power Whip set, where you're just going to be spamming Power Whip until you see a Steel or Grass type anyways. New EVs are 104 Atk / 152 SpA / 252 Spe. Special Attacker isn't that great a sweeper. However, Leaf Storm is an obscenely powerful move even without a boost. The sheer power of Leaf Storm is enough to justify a set, Solarbeam will be ACed because its honestly a terrible move, and Venusaur does that better. Growth Sweeper is new #1 set because it has better coverage than Power Whip version. For the same reasons, max speed now, 136 SpA to hit benchmark OHKO on Latios after SR. The rest dumped into Attack.
  18. asterat

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    the main reason to run victrebel is weather ball, and that rlies on sunlight. because of this, you should probably run solarbeam as when using weather ball you already rely on sunlight. For physical hits/coverage i guess you could run poison jab or return, they will be able to deal with SpD latias much easier.
  19. Bruno Magno

    Bruno Magno

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    Victreebel isn't outclassed by Venusaur!

    A spread of 252 Atk / 60 SAtk / 196 Spd should work, as outspeeds 100 base + nature + Scarf. Leaf Storm can be used as really-powerful STAB, but Leaf Blade is great too. Weather Ball is necessary, as Growth is. Then, options for the 4th slot are Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Ice, Sucker Punch (i think Sludge Bomb / HP Ice are the best moves)
  20. New World Order

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    could I get a QC check on this?
  21. PK Gaming

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    I'm not really a fan of the second set. On top of having the most ridiculous name ever, it just seems like an unnecessary set when most of what it can do can be accomplished by the main set.

    So, remove that set and slash Sleep Powder alongside Sludge Bomb on the first set and mention Sleep Powder in AC in the second set. Once you do that, i'll approve this analysis.
  22. New World Order

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    Alright, I removed it, but should I slap Power Whip in as an AC mention as well?
  23. Pocket

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    I would remove Sucker Punch on Victreebel's Growth set. It won't be a Growth set without Growth :o. A lot of your calcs also take into account Growth boosts, so it seems absurd for Growth to be replaceable. Sucker Punch is OO material imo; it just doesn't seem to fit in any of these sets without sacrificing necessary coverage or helpful set-up / support move

    The all-out attack set has potential, imo. It doesn't need to rely on Growth to start wreaking havoc, and it isn't walled by Chansey / Blissey, unlike the Special Attacker (who opts for HP Ground > Growth).

    name: All-Out Mixed
    move 1: Power Whip
    move 2: Hidden Power [Fire]
    move 3: Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Sleep Powder
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    ability: Chlorophyll
    evs: 148 Atk / 112 SpA / 248 Spe

    copy-pasta from my previous post:

    Power Whip has a good chance in 2-shotting Chansey after it switches into SR twice / SR + 1 Spikes. Blissey is 2HKOed after Rocks. It also kills Politoed, Tyranitar, and Jellicent after SR; 2HKOs Hippowdon no problem. It has just enough SpA to 2HKO dragons with Sludge Bomb after Rocks and OHKO Ferrothorn / Skarmory with Sun-boosted HP Fire after Rocks. The same HP Fire is a 3HKO on specially-defensive Jirachi, which isn't bad.

    Heatran walls this set, but that's what Sleep Powder is for. Sleep Powder can also put Chansey to sleep, forcing a switch or let Victreebel whale away at Chansey. This set lets you showcase the power of Power Whip.
  24. Deinosaur

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    Probably put Blissey and Chansey on counters for All out special attacker, without growth, even Leaf Storm does like 30%.
  25. New World Order

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    Okay, why the fuck is my checks and counters section missing a whole chunk, meh probably just forgot to save it when I edited it in

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