War on Terror

There was a thread a while ago about why people thought the war started. I would like this thread in a slightly different direction.

In the most recent poll taken by CNN only 36% of Americans are in favor of the war. If you instead are one of the 64% of Americans opposed to the war what instead do you suggest we do. Do you suggest we pack our bags and pull every troop out of Iraq immediately or do you think we should stay and fight taking thousands of casualties? For the non-Americans looking in on this war, what do you feel is the next step?
as we are now, but the
 

Misty

oh
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The War in Iraq and the War on Terror are completely separate and distinct concepts. Iraq was never associated with any terrorism (except against Iran).

The War on Terror has been completely mismanaged and, in its current state, has absolutely no hope. The problem occurred when it became less about stopping al-Qaeda and more about pushing through an absurd unilateralist agenda (you can thank Donald Rumsfeld for that). The so-called "War on Terror", as it is now, is nothing but a cover and justification for preserving American hegemony at nightmarish costs. Terrorism is a real problem, but it's a global problem that requires global situations - not just retardedly sending your military into random countries that you don't like.


As far as the war in Iraq, I'm not really sure. Certainly, if Iraq avoids another civil war, then it's probably a legitimate request to keep a military presence up for some time (we still have tens of thousands of troops in South Korea, for instance). But if it devolves into sectarian violence again... I'd probably be more inclined to let Iraq just sort itself out, because that's probably the only way we'll get something effective.
 
For the non-Americans looking in on this war, what do you feel is the next step?
Definitely leave, i believe this war was mislead since the beginning and with secret affairs. Now is not clear what is the whole objective of this, and what the USA won out of it... in some point, Iraq will have to be on their own.
 
I'm not going to go to deep into how I feel about the war entirely, because every time I have this debate, I end up getting ready to tear someone's head off.

But I feel as thought we need to get out of there for a verity of reasons. We are digging our selves into a massive hole of Blowback that we will being feeling years down the road. We are bleeding money out the ass, and to think that certain companies are actually profiting off this war is outrages, and needs to stop now.

If you can vote, and you are a US citizen and you want to get out of a Iraq and Iran, look into voting for Dr. Ron Paul. He now has more votes that Giuliani, has a real shot at winning, and I promise you is the only presidential candidate that will get us out of there. More veterans families of veterans, and active US troops, have donated to Dr. Paul than any-other candidate, ever.

Lets bring our troops home now.
 
Lol, Ron Paul.

The 'war on terror' was a cover-up, really. They had a fairly good idea that Hussein wasn't about to unleash any 'weapons of mass destruction' on us. Then again, what I'd say would only be redundant, so I think I'll leave it at that.
 
The so called "war on terror" is an impossible war to win, how the hell do you defeat an emotion? Station ten marines under little Timmy's bed so he can sleep soundly at night knowing that the boogeyman is being waterboarded in Guantanamo bay? No, we're at war with Al Queida and the Taliban.

Iraq was a farce at best, withdraw all troops from that hellhole and the middle east in general. I honestly don't give two fucks what some arabs are doing in the middle east, if they attack us we figure out who did it and fucking crush them, deposing their government for allowing them to work there like we did in Afghanistan. That happens once or twice and they'd eventually figure out that as long as they didn't fuck with us they'd be free of the great satan's evil hand. What we've done in Iraq has undone the good we did in Afghanistan.

Holy shit, I find myself agreeing with the guy with the go vegan smiley for an avatar. Ron Paul is the only candidate advocating a complete pullout of the middle east, sealing off that slow sucking wound draining billions of dollars from our coffers weekly. Vote Ron Paul plzkthnx, all of the democrats are pussies for not wanting to pull out.
 
If you can vote, and you are a US citizen and you want to get out of a Iraq and Iran, look into voting for Dr. Ron Paul. He now has more votes that Giuliani, has a real shot at winning, and I promise you is the only presidential candidate that will get us out of there. More veterans families of veterans, and active US troops, have donated to Dr. Paul than any-other candidate, ever.

Lets bring our troops home now.
for the love of god. all the makings of a terrible ron paul advertisment, right down to "Dr. Ron Paul" for no other reason than to make him look important HEY GUYS HES A DOCTOR

Anyway, I agree with the War on Terror in theory, but think it was poorly managed. Iraq was an understandable place to start, as there is a history with Saddam, and it is in a strategic location in regards to other territories with US military influence, and more powerful Middle Eastern countries, like Iran. It could and should have been handled a lot better, but I feel in some way or another, it had to be started.
 
thats been fairly obvious since the beginning though misty. if we pulled out now Iraq would collapse upon itself in anarchy. it sucks but US military presence is necessary for the survival of Iraq from foreign and domestic enemies.

keitharr said:
Iraq was a farce at best, withdraw all troops from that hellhole and the middle east in general. I honestly don't give two fucks what some arabs are doing in the middle east, if they attack us we figure out who did it and fucking crush them, deposing their government for allowing them to work there like we did in Afghanistan. That happens once or twice and they'd eventually figure out that as long as they didn't fuck with us they'd be free of the great satan's evil hand. What we've done in Iraq has undone the good we did in Afghanistan.

Holy shit, I find myself agreeing with the guy with the go vegan smiley for an avatar. Ron Paul is the only candidate advocating a complete pullout of the middle east, sealing off that slow sucking wound draining billions of dollars from our coffers weekly. Vote Ron Paul plzkthnx, all of the democrats are pussies for not wanting to pull out.
this is one of the most uneducated excuses for an opinion i have ever read. have you ever actually tried to find any facts about what is going on in iraq and the middle east? i'm not talking about whatever hyper conservative horseshit mom and dad spew either, i am talking about cold, hard facts. you do realize that if we pulled out of the middle east right now terrorist organizations funded by Iran would attack and destroy iraq and afghanistan without a moments hesitation. or how about iran's nuclear capabilities? does that sound like a fun situation to you? a country that funds terrorists and is basically openly hostile to western ideology with nuclear weapons without a substantial force in the immediate vicinity to stop them? war is not an option again. do you think it would cost any less to take down bunkered terrorists and probably the regime in iran when they are much stronger than iraq was at the beginning of the war? why don't you go educate yourself on a subject before vomiting this nonsense all over a serious topic. jesus christ people like you piss me off
 
Why is everyone shaking in their boots over Iran who MIGHT get one or two nukes when we lived just fine back in the day when the soviets had a couple hundred thousand pointed right at us? Kim Jong Il has nukes and he's not using them, you know why? It's because he'd get slaughtered if he did, we'd either fire back or invade and destroy all infrastructure and execute him. Do you think Iran is dumb enough to directly try anything against Iraq considering how horribly we destroyed Iraq when they attacked Kuwait? As long as we are in the middle east we will be the primary target of terrorist attacks. We would better protect Iraq with a defensive agreement than we would with soldiers on the ground. It's illegal to gain land by war anyways so if Iran attempted to the UN would turn against them.

The primary reason that Iran is pursuing nuclear technology is not to kill Americans, but to act as a deterrent to invading them. If I was Iran I'd be fucking worried too considering American troops are on two of their borders and Bush has declared them to be a member of the Axis of Evil. Do you seriously think that Iran would ever be a real threat to us other than pointing a few nukes that even the most insane megalomaniacs are too terrified to use? If so, get a grip, Iraq had the fourth largest army in the world in the first gulf war, we destroyed it in two weeks. Iran knows they'd have no chance in a full scale war which is why they fund terrorists to kill our soldiers in Iraq. As long as the Iraq war remains unpopular it will be difficult for politicians to justify going into Iran.

I find it funny that you're calling my ideas hyper conservative when you're basically defending the positions of the majority of the republican party.
 

Misty

oh
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The problems with Iran having nuclear weapons are twofold and neither of them really have to do with Iran actually USING those weapons.

First, the very likely immediate result would be an arms race in the Middle East - very similar to what happened between the US and the USSR. This could prove very unstable, especially in the innately unstable region that is the Middle East.

The second possibility is that Iran will give nuclear technology to Hamas or Hezbollah, who will use it against Israel. I'm not entirely sure this is reasonable - I would be a bit frightened of giving non-state actors access to technology that could one day be used against me, no matter who I am. And God knows Pakistan has pretty much laughed at the NPT already, so I'm not sure Iran could make things much worse.


One problem I don't think I've ever seen discussed but could be an issue - Iran's government is not likely to be stable. I think, for the most part, that the Iranian people are a little tired of this conservative government that is really not answerable to the people - they voted overwhelmingly for Khatami and look what that got them - and eventually, I see this government being weakened from within through generational change, as more and more people are born after the Iranian Revolution. Eventually it's going to change, and, if the government has a stockpile of nuclear weapons, that raises a few points about what could happen as a result.
 
personally i am more concerned about iran's pet terrorist cells getting their hands on nuclear weapons than hezbollah or hamas nuking israel (it is still a very real threat though). a race to arms in the middle east just screams catastrophe on a worldwide level, there are too many countries that hate each other with investments in the middle east to have any good come from that. i don't remember which country has tensions with india but that is another serious problem that is just waiting to explode.

i think the biggest fear i have is the WMDs that the USSR and the USA "misplaced" after the cold war ended. i have a serious problem with people who think they are going to heaven with a reward of however many virgins if they destroy a part of the united states and take their own life in the process. you can't fight people who believe they have nothing to lose and win without killing every last one of them.


keitharr: mutually assured destruction is not an answer to this problem at all, it is an end result where everyone dies. i don't know about you but i definitely do NOT want that to be our only answer to this. also, where exactly does a country send their nukes when the people who attacked them have no country or fear of death? what happens if a terrorist cell launches a nuclear strike on the US? we can't justify a retaliatory strike against iran, pakistan, iraq or afghanistan after our intel fuckup in iraq. we would be met with a resounding no from every corner of the UN. i don't think you understand the full extent of the power of terrorism. it can not be stopped as long as there is one person willing to spread its doctrine, think of it like a hydra, for every head you cut off two more sprout from its place and are even more extremest than the last. the only way to kill it is to cut off every head and burn the stumps so to speak. it is literally impossible to kill every single person with malcontent on their minds towards our country or others which is why our presence is needed and will continue to be needed until the middle east has become much more stable. i agree that the government's reasoning for attacking iraq was extremely flawed but it was necessary and we have to finish what we started or the world will pay in blood.

misty: i completely agree with your sentiments that Iran's government is decaying from the inside out. i assume that if it starts to get too out of control the UN will step in and take preventative measures. they weren't helpful during our investigation of iraq and later the attack but i think that is because many of the countries in the council had no reason to act, there was no palpable threat to them. i am positive that every single member of the UN knows everyone is affected by a nuclear attack, even if it isn't directed towards them. i am putting a lot of faith in something that is notorious for refusing to act though...
 
First off, I have an online friend in the Marines and she is deploying to Iraq on the 18th. I am also an Army Brat so do understand if this comes off pro-military.

To those who seem to think that pulling out of Iraq right now is a good idea...keep in mind that Terrorists would see that as a victory as that is what they want to happen. "Dr." Ron Paul is an idiot (FYI: I am not registered with either party) to think pulling out is a good idea.

Iran scares the hell out of me. If you think they are afraid of us, think again folks! President Akmadenijad is as crazy as they come with a Death Wish. Keep in mind he keeps calling the for destruction of Israel everytime he speaks at the UN and that Hezbollah is funded by Iran through Syria. You don't think they would happily hand a nuke over to Hezbollah to be used on Tel Aviv or Jerusalem (they don't care who they kill if they believe they are killing infidels).

Also, to the on who asked...it is Pakistan and India that have problems with each other. Misty is right by the way. A Nuclear-capable Iran would cause a Nuclear Arms race in a region that is politically as unstable as the Middle East with countries having invested interests? Can anyone say World War 3?

Also...the UN actually acting on something? Please! I consider that group about as functional now as the League Of Nations in the years leading up to the Second World War.

Sensing a theme here people? I am worried the planet is going to hell in a handbasket. Read poem below.

The Second Coming
By W.B. Yeats

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
 

Deck Knight

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The UN stepping in is basically saying the US military steps in. We've become their attack dog, and whenever there needs to be intervention, guess who gets to go in first, lose the most lives, and leave last, if at all. Essentially the US military provides the defense that Europe won't provide for itself.

Ron Paul is an idiot. He's an amalgam of extreme positions and the only one he'll be able to actually do is unilateral surrender from everywhere. Paul is an irresponsible moron backed by racists and neonazis (the fans of his newsletter), whose essential domestic policy is anarchy and foreign policy is isolationism.

The problem with the middle east is it's run entirely by oil-renting theocratic thugs who complement you in English while they plot to murder you in Arabic. Every week Armageddonjad starts his radio address by calling to wipe out Israel. Sure, he's just the mouthpiece for Khameni, but Khameni has no interest in realing in the Jew hatred or the acceleration of the end-times bit.

Saddam in contrast showed no aversion to using bioweapons on the Kurds and he was essentially playing chicken with IAEA inspectors. He harbored terrorists, ordered assasinations on Bush 41, had an immense number of body doubles, and in general was a mass-murdering psychopath whose only positive was that unlike the Taliban in Afghanistan, the oil got drilled and the trains ran on time. If Saddam was seeking nukes he could have attacked nearly every country in Europe from his vast swath of desert.

The War for Oil bit is tiresome old lefty trash. If we were really there purely for oil and Bush is the evil imperialist fascist the left makes him out to be, we would have just taken over the oil fields for ourselves and let the social structure in Iraq rot. Instead we've been reviving the area, and Anbar province, formerly a terrorist haven, has been completely turned around. It is now safe to move around Baghdad again, and aside from a few trouble spots being churned by Iran's puppet strings, Iraq is mostly under the control of Iraqis. Is the work done? No. But to say we lost just means you're in good company with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, whose invested his entire political future in Iraq's failure.

Speaking of the oil fields, they are now exceeding the capacity they were under Saddam. Damn you Boosh!

I will agree the "War on Terror" is a misnomer. Our enemy is really radical jihadists who believe in blowing themselves up in the name of Allah in the hopes of establishing a worldwide Muslim theocracy (commonly referred to as the caliphate.) They believe women are second class citizens, Western civilization is an affront to Allah, and basically that your options are to be a Muslim, a slave, or a dead body.

Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslim.
 

Misty

oh
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The UN stepping in is basically saying the US military steps in. We've become their attack dog, and whenever there needs to be intervention, guess who gets to go in first, lose the most lives, and leave last, if at all. Essentially the US military provides the defense that Europe won't provide for itself.
I'm actually going to start by agreeing with you. The complete inability of the EU to project military power is very telling about its ability to help maintain order.

Ron Paul is an idiot. He's an amalgam of extreme positions and the only one he'll be able to actually do is unilateral surrender from everywhere. Paul is an irresponsible moron backed by racists and neonazis (the fans of his newsletter), whose essential domestic policy is anarchy and foreign policy is isolationism.
You're... not really right, though you're right on principle. Ron Paul's positions are mostly untenable but your rhetoric greatly exaggerates the problems with them.

The problem with the middle east is it's run entirely by oil-renting theocratic thugs who complement you in English while they plot to murder you in Arabic. Every week Armageddonjad starts his radio address by calling to wipe out Israel. Sure, he's just the mouthpiece for Khameni, but Khameni has no interest in realing in the Jew hatred or the acceleration of the end-times bit.
Ahmadinejad has about the same popularity in Iran that Bush does in the USA - i.e., in the cellar. I'd be very surprised if he gets re-elected, and if he does it will be through basically rigging the election via his allies. In that case, I doubt anyone will really listen to him anyway.

Khamenei is complicated, he's a lot more pragmatic than Ahmadinejad but he is definitely no reformist - but from what I can tell, the pragmatic wing of the conservatives have his ear (via Rafsanjani), which leads me to believe that Iran isn't a threat to anyone, especially not the United States. A new supreme leader could change that, but right now the pragmatics have a majority in the Assembly of Experts (and given what I said earlier about the electorate, I see no reason for that to change), so regardless of what happens, I think things with respect to Iran will get better, not worse - assuming we don't do anything stupid.

No real comment on Saddam.

The War for Oil bit is tiresome old lefty trash. If we were really there purely for oil and Bush is the evil imperialist fascist the left makes him out to be, we would have just taken over the oil fields for ourselves and let the social structure in Iraq rot. Instead we've been reviving the area, and Anbar province, formerly a terrorist haven, has been completely turned around. It is now safe to move around Baghdad again, and aside from a few trouble spots being churned by Iran's puppet strings, Iraq is mostly under the control of Iraqis. Is the work done? No. But to say we lost just means you're in good company with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, whose invested his entire political future in Iraq's failure.
I have to agree that oil was probably just a sweetener (as evidenced by Rumsfeld's claim that the war would "pay for itself with oil"), and there was a lot of other issues at stake (especially the idealist neoconservative agenda).

Speaking of the oil fields, they are now exceeding the capacity they were under Saddam. Damn you Boosh!
Ahem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5117170.stm

Before the war, output was around 3 million bpd, peaking at a record of 3.5 million bpd.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/NYTU09515012008-1.htm

Iraqi production was estimated at 2.3 million b/d

I will agree the "War on Terror" is a misnomer. Our enemy is really radical jihadists who believe in blowing themselves up in the name of Allah in the hopes of establishing a worldwide Muslim theocracy (commonly referred to as the caliphate.) They believe women are second class citizens, Western civilization is an affront to Allah, and basically that your options are to be a Muslim, a slave, or a dead body.
The question is - are we really fighting THOSE people? That's obviously al-Qaeda's goal, but from what I can tell, all we've done on that front is throw money at Musharraf and hope for the best. The Taliban had no interest in going anywhere beyond Afghanistan and maybe Pakistan. The Iraqi insurgency (minus the al-Qaeda proxy, which admittedly we ARE fighting - but it's our own fault they're there in the first place) just wants its country back.

Most Muslims aren't terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslim.
I'd estimate that, of the billion or so Muslims on Earth, maybe 20-30,000 are terrorists who harbor real willingness to go after the US, Israel, or some government that they dislike (Algeria, etc) - and 99% of them are in Pakistan or on the Afghan border with Pakistan. The question is - does this really say anything about Islam, or just the people who happened to pervert it? Remember, you could easily trace this movement back to the Soviet-Afghan war, which WE funded.
 
we cant really blame them for rebelling against us though, it is how our country was formed, we didn't throw the first punch though (unless you consider refusing to pay King Henry's tariff one). terrorism is just an extreme form of rebellion. i am in no way justifying what they have done though, it is inexcusable and should be payed for with their lives.
 
I think we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Pulling out the troops would result in immediate civil war and a leader that supports terrorism taking power. If we stay we continue to expose our troops to danger.

Do you guys think it is possible to use conventional methods to win a war against an ideal? Is it possible to win a war against an ideal?
 

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