What It Takes To Make It Into OU... (Improve a Pokemon)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I figured this is the most appropriate sort of place for a discussion like this, but if its not, feel free to smack me and set things right.

Anyhow, in Pokemon, there is a pretty well divided metagame. There are pokemon that pretty clearly belong in "Standard" play, and there are those that don't. I mean, the competitive difference between Pokemon like Dustox and Gyarados is pretty obvious, even to someone who isn't intimately familiar with the world of competitive pokemon battling.

So the question I pose to the fine folks at Smogon is "What does it really take to make it into the Standard tier?" To further try and show what it really takes, I ask that you, the fine folks of Smogon, propose the smallest amount of changes to an obviously UU/NU pokemon that could make it usable in the OU/BL tier. Be it a new ability, more moves, altered stats or something more extreme, I ask what it really takes to make it into OU!

So, improve that pokemon?
 
This is a loaded question, since I think what it takes to be in OU really depends on how the metagame itself evolves in "standards" and we really don't know how it'll work out right now.
 
Honestly, what it comes down to is how much people use the Pokemon.

It can get all the improvements it wants, but if people don't want to use it for whatever reason, it won't be OU.
 
IMPROVE BANNETTE

Frisk is a pretty nice trait, but it really needs an evo. Normal/Ghost, 65/125/60/80/60/105. Shadow Claw, Focus Punch, STAB Return, Swords Dance. Or something.
 
Lord Alchemy- I suppose that's fair enough, although it really does seem that there is a general tendency to gravitate towards the Advanced tiers (which, so far, seems generally effective). But its a fair point.

Masquerade__- I tend to disagree with that. The tiers, despite the implication of popularity playing a roll in the breakdown, are pretty much completely rooted in power these days.
 
Well, I hope I'll be able to demonstrate what it takes to make NU and UU Pokemon standard with the Competitor's database modification features. Altering Pokemon to increase balance is the business I'm in!

Generally, a Pokemon is a product of its movepool and stats. Being average in both gives the best net gain, and the more extreme one way or another you go, the more of the other you need to work effectively. Traits help work into this as they can both effectively add stats (Pure Power Farfetch'd), can fix awkward typings (Water Absorb Magcargo), and otherwise are nice bonuses which are usually built to play into the movepool (Speed Boost/BP Rapidash). Of course, the problem with the current standard is that the best Pokemon like Salamence are good in every way. Great stats + great movepool with a good trait to boot. What are you supposed to do about that? Really, if you want to expand standard significantly, you are forced to nerf the best.
 
Any Poke that's not a shadow of anyone can make it to OU.

Give Bulk Up and Recover to Quagsire, so this will make up for the less impressive stats than Swampert.

Calm Mind to Politoed, so he can have a shot in OU in the place of Suicune thanks to his Ability.

Flare Blitz to Flareon, so he can use his HUGE attack to full power (He's stuck to Fire Fang, Return and Dig now lol).
 
Floaztel and Luxray just need earthquake,Kingdra needs Dragon claw or Rush, Flygon needs Dragon Dance.Umbreon needs Hypnosis.Rampados Needs Dragon Dance etc.They are a lot pokes that are one move away from being competitive.
 
I agree with the above poster, it only takes a move or two for some pokemon to really shine. How scary would Garchomp be without Swords Dance? Almost all would exclusively be "choice" users, soundly being beat with prediction, and the threat of being swept 6-0 wouldn't be so prevalent.

Flygon just screams for dragon dance, lol, I think we should start a petition.

I think it also has to do without being outclassed by other pokemon too.
 
If Aggron got Solid Rock instead of Rock Head or Sturdy as an ability, it would finally be usable. (Hopefully not broken though, considering that even with a Sandstorm its X4 weaknesses are likely going to be physical).

Its movepool and stats are already great, but if it had a not-so-useless ability it would be perfect!
 
Would these work?:

Mantine with Roost, Calm Mind, Thunderwave, and maybe Barrier.

Make the Light Ball work for Raichu and you have something cool.

If Muk got the Filter trait, Recover, and Amnesia he could do well...

Ampharos with No Guard and Dragon Pulse and Zap Cannon would be fun.
 
Would these work?:

Make the Light Ball work for Raichu and you have something cool.

Ampharos with No Guard and Dragon Pulse and Zap Cannon would be fun.
Raichu with Light Ball effects would be absolutely broken. It would have near-Mewtwo/Deoxys Attack form Attack and Sp. Attack... which is kinda... yeah.

(Edit: I just double-checked: Deoxys Attack Form's max attack is 504 with a beneficial nature. Raichu's is 306...with Light Ball it would be 612. I'll leave you to decide how broken that is. XD)

What Ampharos needs is fucking Tail Glow. T_T But No Guard would be interesting, too.
 
I apologize for not introducing myself in the proper topic, but since I (unfortunately) do not think I'll become a regular poster, I thought I could just post once or twice in this thread. I'm not a hardcore pokémon player by any means, but I always like to think of ways to make UU or NU pokémon suitable for more standard play. However, like I said, I have no idea how the metagame really works, so I'm guessing most of my ideas are only good in theory. XP

-----

Alright, let's talk about Swalot. First, I don't like how a lot of moves can't be used in a competitive format, so I usually try to think of ways where they could be made viable, so I was thinking of this: give Swalot a new trait that builds up a free Stockpile (without the defense and sp. defense boost) every turn.

This would make Swallow/Spit-up much easier to implement, removes a wasted Stockpile moveslot, adds more variety to the mix, and could lead to more new moves that take advantage of stockpiling. Of course, I think Swalot would need another evolution to fully take advantage of this trait and use it competitively, but it sounds good to me (plus, this new trait could be applied to some other monsters, like a Mawile evolution or whatever).

-----

Um, another thing I noticed is that Sturdy is a pretty bad trait, and most monsters that have Sturdy are almost unusable in the metagame (Golem, Aggron, Bastiodon, Probopass, etc.). Perhaps Sturdy could be reworked to have additional benefits?

For example, why does it only have to apply to moves like Fissure and Sheer Cold? Why can't it apply to ANY move that would normally OHKO a monster? At the very least, it should be a built-in Focus Band.

Now, stop me if I'm wandering into broken territory, but could it even be expanded this far? Let's say that it does more than a Focus Band; if a move would normally OHKO, it only does a smaller amount of damage, like a third of the pokémon's max HP? Or maybe some formula could be used to stop damage after a certain percentage of some sort (maybe the percentage could even be randomized, thus making it something to not be relied upon for all situations). Also, the ability could be made null after a certain point, like after 50% or 75% of the poké's max HP has been cut.

Unless this would make something like Aggron broken, I think it'd be pretty cool. Everybody focuses on the double weakness of things like Rock/Ground or Rock/Steel, but with this ability enhanced, those same pokémon once hurt by their bad typings will instead be *enhanced* by them, relying on them to force opponents to use moves that aren't so common. Bastiodon will not need to worry about Earthquake as much anymore, because it is guaranteed to be at least a 3HKO, or Golem with Surf or Grass Rope or whatever. Instead, players will have to purposefully use moves that would normally do a lot of damage WITHOUT going for the OHKO, thus making the ability not take effect, allowing for a 2HKO. Even then, the 2HKO guarantee should help out some of these guys even a little bit, right?

Or am I missing something? (Probably...)

-----

How come so many Bug types need to suck, especially the ones that already have three forms? (Beedrill, Dustox, Beautifly, etc.) How about, for a future Pokémon game, they added in some sort of mechanic to rectify this?

Okay, I know these kinds of Bug pokémon were designed to help trainers during the early hours of single player, and suck if the player didn't learn to adapt without them... but that doesn't mean they need to suck forever. If help in the early game was their only purpose, then surely an adjustment could be presented once the main game itself is finished, yes? Perhaps... Bugsy from GSC is found researching Bug pokémon in a certain forest or area, and makes some startling discovery. Maybe it's that pokémon who evolve from cocoons and such (notice how the main four–Butterfree, Beedrill, Dustox, and Beautifly–all evolve from similar second stages?) grow stronger the longer they are in that state, suggesting that base stats will be higher if they are evolved past a certain level (let's say, 36 or so). Or maybe they just evolve better if they do so in the region Bugsy is experimenting in (like with Glaceon and Leafeon around those rocks).

So, now we could have awesome Bug pokémon with competitive stats! But, why stop there? How about getting rid of that awful Bug/Flying type combo, especially when it's not being put to good use? Maybe that could just be its "imperfect" typing, when it's evolved "prematurely." Hell, you could give Butterfree a Bug/Psychic or something, whatever gives it its own niche!

And how about more? Maybe these guys, having reached their full potential, gain access to some new moves, like a Bug equivalent of Giga Drain for Beautifly (probably doesn't work gameplay-wise, but it would fit its character at least :P).

Or, how about a move I've been working on in my head, a Bug version of Substitute (Hive Call or something)? Like, what it would do is take a pokémon (I originally had Beedrill in mind) and splits it into three separate mini-monsters, each receiving a third of the overall HP, stats, etc. It hurts more than Substitute, but has more attacking potential. When you use a move to attack, all three would initiate the attack, one after the other This would probably work well with multi-hit attacks, especially if the attacks themselves had their mechanics changed slightly, along with hold items that would, say, boost the damage of such attacks (plus, don't forget Swarm).

I know that, as the game stands now, the damage would still be too small to be very worthwhile, but all that's needed are a couple bumps here and there, maybe an added effect for so-and-so move, etc. etc. etc. The important thing is not implementation (that can always be adjusted), but variety and strategy. If Hive Call subs can only be broken one at a time, then multi-hitting moves will grow in popularity and usefulness (I mean, if it weren't for Stealth Rock and Spikes, Rapid Spin would NEVER be seen on any team). Rock Blast, Pin Missile, and others would become much more widely used, especially if the minimum number of hits was brought up to three, and the damage per hit was increased (is 20 damage per hit too much?).

-----

Alright, one last one, I don't want to bore you guys. ;)

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I think Gamefreak should be a bit more liberal with some of the weather abilities, particularly Drizzle and Drought. I hate to bring up such an obvious addition, but wouldn't dozens of pokémons' usefulness be severely enhanced, if just for utility?

For example, my friend (who knows much more about the metagame than me) tells me how some pokémon aren't necessarily bad, it's just that there are others who do the same things they do except better (like Blaziken and Infernape). To me, this just seems more like a case of identity crisis, where a certain monster has yet to find its unique gameplay niche that sets it apart from other similar, yet more usable pokémon.

So, what are some pokémon that could benefit from weather abilities? I don't think I'd be the best person to ask (I'd love to hear you guys say which ones would benefit from which abilites the most), but... would it be too much to, say, ask for Typhlosion to get Drought? Would that make him too powerful, or just good enough to make him a popular choice for teams?

(Also, I know it goes against precedent with starters in regards to their abilities, but they could always fix that in a future game. Like, maybe an "Ability Tutor", or a small sidequest that results in alternate abilities for starters, ones that would be more adequate for their gameplay niche? I always thought a sort of built-in Big Root-esque ability for Meganium would kick all sorts of ass.)

------

And, wow, I started ranting kind-of. I'm sorry, I hope I didn't make my post too long. :(

Anyway, I'd like to get some professional guidance here. What works and what doesn't? What sounds fun and interesting, and what sounds boring or tedious?
 

Firestorm

I did my best, I have no regrets!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I actually do like your ideas. One thing that'd really be nice is more Pokemon who can learn Rapid Spin or another move (like what Defog SHOULD be dammit) that does the same thing. It would really help Pokemon who are 4x weak to rock to be useable again.

And please for the love of god like double or 1.5x all of Butterfree's stats ;_;
 
Light Ball Raichu would be SCARY lol. While you're at it, give it Ice Beam, Close Combat and Levitate... maybe Motor Drive.

As a self-proclaimed Raichu fanatic though, I find it unfair that Marowak gets Thick Club and Raichu doesn't get Light Ball (Can definetly see why). =( It could be like a 30% increase or something.
 
If Riachu got the Light Ball, the Light Ball would be as rare (or rarer) as the Soul Dew.


Make Kanashan have better speed or Dragon Dance and look out!
 
Flareon needs more moves, damn. With nothing to replace special shadow ball, at least it should get Flame Wheel and Flame Drive! And maybe the slashes (Night Slash, Slash, etc) since it has those claw bearing feet for something.

Beedrill, Dustox, Venomoth... Goodness gracious, guys, go and get levitate! You're not even touching the ground, morons!

Bone Club and Bonemarang need to hit flying+levitating Pokemon.
 

Gmax

kuahahahaha
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Bug/Flying
How about a new item that is so heavy that it changes Flying type to Ground or Steel(dependent on initial weight of Poke) and gets used up when used. Bug/Ground or Bug/Steel are nice, eh? It only works if the primary type is Bug.

Pinsir
Main problem here is that it doesn't have good enough STAB/Speed.(Scissor Cross isnt all that good). Give it an evo which leaves it as pure Bug, but has half a large horn added to each pincer(both of which should become shorter), so that when the pincers are joined, they get a large horn at the end. MEGAHORN. Maybe the evo could have an extra type too. Bug/Electric could be nice. Add in T Punch/Volt Tackle and Pinsir just got competitive.

Flareon
Come on Nintendo! Give it Flare Drive! A recovery move of some sort would be nice too...

Beedrill
Make a Beedrill exclusive item that when used doubles HP and Defense. That should make it competitive with SD'd Poison Stab and X-Scissor.

Venomoth

This thing screams Evo. Its only had 2 stages so far so it can be given an Evo. Maybe Bug/Psychic to give it STAB on the Psychic it naturally learns.BTW, if this thing comes in and KOs something resistant to Psychic with Psychic.....
 
I actually have a document on my computer listing which moves/traits I want to add to pokemon. Here are some highlights:

Simple/Unaware Golduck
Extremespeed Rapidash
Energy Ball/Shadow Ball/Rapid Spin Electrode
Crabhammer Pinsir
Flare Blitz/Dragon Dance Flareon
Thick Fat for Meganium, Donphan, and maybe even Ampharos
Aura Sphere Typhlosion
Head Crash/Leech Seed Sudowoodo
Weather Ball Sunflora/Cherrim
Bullet Punch Scizor
Shell Armor/Suction Cups Shuckle
Attack Order Ursaring :)
Power Whip Octillery
Power Whip/Rock Blast Donphan
Flare Blitz/Earthquake Entei
Unburden Linoone
Leaf Blade/Night Slash Shiftry
Aromatherapy/Haze/Leaf Storm Gardevoir
Magic Coat/Pain Split/Eruption/Water Spout Shedinja
Draco Meteor (and variations) and Explosion Exploud, with Download
Magic Guard Sableye
Air Slash/Bug Buzz/Dragon Dance/Power Whip Flygon
Technician Cacturne
Lunar Dance/Moonlight/Power Gem Lunatone
Morning Sun/Psycho Cut Solrock
Aqua Jet/Waterfall Armaldo with Water Absorb
Cosmic Power/Gyro Ball/Metal Burst Registeel
Air Slash/Iron Defense/Steel Wing Empoleon
Acupressure/Baton Pass/Curse/Ominous Wind Bibarel
Volt Tackle/Extremespeed/Sucker Punch Luxray
Encore/Power Whip Ambipom
Aromatherapy/Magma Storm Skuntank
Heal Bell/Rapid Spin Bronzong
Arena Trap Carnivine
Air Slash/Amnesia/Luster Cannon/Surf Glaceon
Recover/Refresh Regigigas

Yeah, running my own modserver is kinda my lifelong dream...
 
Give Bulk Up and Recover to Quagsire, so this will make up for the less impressive stats than Swampert.

Calm Mind to Politoed, so he can have a shot in OU in the place of Suicune thanks to his Ability.

Flare Blitz to Flareon, so he can use his HUGE attack to full power (He's stuck to Fire Fang, Return and Dig now lol).
Exactly the route AA took with the mods on his server. Quagsire got Slack-Off, Politoed got Calm Mind (and Encore/Psych Up), while Flareon got Serene Grace, Rock Slide, Mirror Coat, Swords Dance and Magnitude hehe.
 
This is true of almost any Pokemon.
Well durr, but only like... 5 Pokemon (not even) have gotten it yet, and all of them have multiple quadrouple weaknesses. I'm talking about a specific few Pokemon that actually deserve the ability (Aggron specifically because it's one of my favourite Pokemon, Golem, maybe Probopass and Bastiodon?). It's a given that Solid Rock would be useful on any Pokemon. You could say the same of giving Drizzle to any water-type.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top