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What makes a good sub-seeder?
- Thread starter Banana292
- Start date
I remember doing calculations on a '16-turn' subseed for use in a Toxic Spikes team, but it's simply not feasible unless the opponent has a HUGE amount of life (I believe it was anything over bulkyDos).
The best abuse definitely goes to lowest HP, highest Spd.
Competitors:
Smeargle: 55/75
Jumpluff: 75/110
Skiploom: 55/80
Sceptile: 70/120
Grovyle: 50/95
With base 50 HP and 0 HPIV, Grovyle has 210 HP.
Add a Leftovers (better than Large Root except in the Blissey Case), Grovyle needs to be leeching back 3/16 of his life a turn (a paltry 39 HP).
With Protect abuse, this gets even more obscene as he only needs to leech 2/16 of his life over TWO turns (13 HP leeched per turn, or 26 once and then they switch). And of course, this is a '32-turn' subseed.
But of course, now the list of problems to resolve.
1) Taunt. If they do, you stop. Ideally you should be using Sceptile who can attack for something. But then again, Grovyle with base 85 SpAtt and in Overgrow might pull out a nasty Leaf Storm.
2) Other Grass-types, or worse, Liquid Ooze. Screw you over. Again you need some sort of attack.
3) Set-up. You ought to be taunting on your own, but only Smeargle gets Leech Seed and Taunt and he should be doing better things. Jumpluff/Skiploom have Encore to solve this problem though and ore viable in this.
4) Speed. 95 base may not be enough and the options are already limited.
It's an overall doomed idea, though if someone pulled off a double Toxic Spike layer and the opponent had no Steel, Poison, Flying/Floating, Grass, Taunt, or Rapid Spin, I'd laugh myself to death.
The Sub/Seed/Protect/Encore Jumpluff does get an award for never dying ever, though.
The best abuse definitely goes to lowest HP, highest Spd.
Competitors:
Smeargle: 55/75
Jumpluff: 75/110
Skiploom: 55/80
Sceptile: 70/120
Grovyle: 50/95
With base 50 HP and 0 HPIV, Grovyle has 210 HP.
Add a Leftovers (better than Large Root except in the Blissey Case), Grovyle needs to be leeching back 3/16 of his life a turn (a paltry 39 HP).
With Protect abuse, this gets even more obscene as he only needs to leech 2/16 of his life over TWO turns (13 HP leeched per turn, or 26 once and then they switch). And of course, this is a '32-turn' subseed.
But of course, now the list of problems to resolve.
1) Taunt. If they do, you stop. Ideally you should be using Sceptile who can attack for something. But then again, Grovyle with base 85 SpAtt and in Overgrow might pull out a nasty Leaf Storm.
2) Other Grass-types, or worse, Liquid Ooze. Screw you over. Again you need some sort of attack.
3) Set-up. You ought to be taunting on your own, but only Smeargle gets Leech Seed and Taunt and he should be doing better things. Jumpluff/Skiploom have Encore to solve this problem though and ore viable in this.
4) Speed. 95 base may not be enough and the options are already limited.
It's an overall doomed idea, though if someone pulled off a double Toxic Spike layer and the opponent had no Steel, Poison, Flying/Floating, Grass, Taunt, or Rapid Spin, I'd laugh myself to death.
The Sub/Seed/Protect/Encore Jumpluff does get an award for never dying ever, though.
Rock-blast Rhypeior kills it.
but how often are you going to see that? anyway IMO there are certain things that make a pokemon build, but this being speciffically(sp?) related to Sub-seeders as has been noted there are 2 kinds, Defensive and Speedy. The other things to consider are the full moveset wether it be Sub/Seed or Sub/Seed/Protect, whichever you need to find out the best last move. IMO my favourite Sub-seeder is definetly Sceptile for sheer speed for the fact that if you can outspeed the enemy and they are not able to hit then there is no reason to be afriad. However on the defensive side you can provide more team coverage.
"Can Carnivine really be called "bulky"?"
Carnivine CAN!
I've used carnivine countless times in the OU environment only to have people be amazed at his walling/stall capabilities.
Carnivine
~Stockpile
~Leech Seed
~Toxic/Sub
~Sleep Powder/Sub
Item: Leftovers
Careful
Idea is pretty simple, sleep powder a pokemon, the seed or the switch or the stay, stockpile and repeat. It's more easily played in the UU environment but the only counter to this is a poison/grass type, which are fairly rare in OU play.
Carnivine CAN!
I've used carnivine countless times in the OU environment only to have people be amazed at his walling/stall capabilities.
Carnivine
~Stockpile
~Leech Seed
~Toxic/Sub
~Sleep Powder/Sub
Item: Leftovers
Careful
Idea is pretty simple, sleep powder a pokemon, the seed or the switch or the stay, stockpile and repeat. It's more easily played in the UU environment but the only counter to this is a poison/grass type, which are fairly rare in OU play.
Tangrowth gets Seed and Block, which sounds fun.
Celebi because it can use: Leech Seed/Substitute/Baton Pass/Hidden Power [Ice].
Baton Passing both Substitute and Leech Seed (assuming they don't switch out), really seems perfect, as Celebi is fast, yet bulky, and handles Leech Seed Immune pokemon with Hidden Power (as well as Dragons).
Baton Pass is rare among Grass types, either uses Celebi or use Leafeon!
as for Tangrowth:
Sleep Powder
Block
Leech Seed
Toxic
Use the moves in that exact order (use Block on their switch after Sleep Powder).
Baton Passing both Substitute and Leech Seed (assuming they don't switch out), really seems perfect, as Celebi is fast, yet bulky, and handles Leech Seed Immune pokemon with Hidden Power (as well as Dragons).
Baton Pass is rare among Grass types, either uses Celebi or use Leafeon!
as for Tangrowth:
Sleep Powder
Block
Leech Seed
Toxic
Use the moves in that exact order (use Block on their switch after Sleep Powder).
I've tried using a SubSeed/Sweep SubSeed, HP Fire, Leaf Storm Sceptile to fairly decent success. Leaf Storm, especially as a response to a broken Sub, is a beastly attack. Even if you're just subbing to get the Seed in and then going for the switch, it's pretty effective at doing both and "getting in there."
Try Endeavor over HP Fire... Endeavor as they break your last sub. If they stay in they take Leaf Storm, if they switch out they take Leaf Storm... + Overgrow.
Also if you know/predict they will switch out to a non-ghost, you can Endeavor the next Pokemon.
Also if you know/predict they will switch out to a non-ghost, you can Endeavor the next Pokemon.
Every pokemon has a "counter." A taunt or phazing move could counter the set but if you are able to sleep powder before you still have your set. Typing doesn't really matter, I was just pointing out that some types would walk all over it but it doesn't matter to me.
Smeargle:
Faster than Breloom, lower life= fast heal.
Spore
Substitute
Leech Seed
Sacred Fire.
Yes Sacred Fire. Burn Grass types to hell, burn non-grass types with Status. Does damage, not just W-o-w, for Taunt/Substitutes.
Drain their Life fast by making them take 24% damage a turn.
I used him in my tournament team and won 6-0 using only him! He killed the entire team.
They used Scarf Garchomp, Tangrowth, Specs Heatran, Dusknoir, Skarmary, Blissey.
Tangrowth was the lead.
I felt gorgeous!
Faster than Breloom, lower life= fast heal.
Spore
Substitute
Leech Seed
Sacred Fire.
Yes Sacred Fire. Burn Grass types to hell, burn non-grass types with Status. Does damage, not just W-o-w, for Taunt/Substitutes.
Drain their Life fast by making them take 24% damage a turn.
I used him in my tournament team and won 6-0 using only him! He killed the entire team.
They used Scarf Garchomp, Tangrowth, Specs Heatran, Dusknoir, Skarmary, Blissey.
Tangrowth was the lead.
I felt gorgeous!
same for Breloom, who is slower, and has many common weaknesses (which negate its better HP/Defense).
Ice/Fire/Flying/Psychic ,etc.
Ice/Fire/Flying/Psychic ,etc.
