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When did Pokémon lose its way?

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Pikamemnon, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

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    I personally don't think that Pokemon has "lost its way," as people have said. Sure, certain parts of each generation are bound to be terrible. Gen 1 had graphic limitations and glitches, Gen 2 was too long, Gen 3 restricted our Pokemon, Gen 4 had some meh Pokemon designs (NOT ALL OF THEM), Gen 5 forced us to use new Pokemon, and Gen 6 has Honedge.

    But, each generation has given me special memories that have kept the series fresh and exciting, with no end for my passion in sight. I started in Gen 3, so I didn't really have any complaints. Gen 1 and Gen 2 weren't nostalgic for me to play again or anything, but provided some stable ideas from where the series was coming from. Gen 4 introduced me to caring about move typings, and Gen 5 launched me into competitive battling and shiny hunting. Even Gen 6 has given me some memories, from my love of Froakie/Swirlix/Dedenne to being genuinely excited about MegaEvolutions like Ampharos and Blaziken.
  2. DarkEspeon

    DarkEspeon

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    What are you saying? That the story, gym leaders, elite 4, and Pokemon league should be completely removed? I don't know, that goes beyond "open world" and jumps straight to "aimless" imo. It also sounds impossible, especially on a handheld, unless it resets your levels and Pokedex after a certain point in time. I can understand that you want it to be less linear, but I think what you seem to be asking only works for games like Minecraft and not for RPGs at all.
  3. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

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    What I'm saying is that Pokemon shouldn't be a "Point A to Point B" game. Does everything that Pokemon was ever known for need to be dropped? Probably not. Just because you aren't required to go in a specific direction doesn't by any means require gyms to be removed.

    For example, let's say there was a pokemon game that truly gave you no direction at all. In a game like that, who knows when you'll reach each of the gyms? It could be in any order, at any level. Why put each gym at a specific level though? Have each with 3 ranks: 1(lv 20s), 2(Lv40s), 3(Lv60s). In the end though, zero direction is not a prerequisite to free exploration. There are plenty of games that let you choose your agenda, yet still have plenty of suggestions of what you probably should/could be doing.
  4. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    Imo I don't feel that Pokémon has ever "lost it's way" it just keep to it's original formula and that's ok. It's a winning formula. Instead of changing that formula they add new things to make the gameplay feel fresh. Gen 5 gave us dream world, PWT, and pokestar studios. Gen 4 gave us Wifi and pokeatholon (Which I played the ever loving crap out of), Gen 3 gave us the battle frontier (Which I also played the ever loving crap out of), and gen 2 gave us two regions to explore. Yes the battle formula has been the same sense pokemon began but everytime I say, "na I'm getting out of the series." Game Freak finds a way to rope me back in. Take gen 6 for example. I haven't been very excited for it when it first was announced. I thought it was to soon to say goodbye to gen 5. Gen 6 also didn't really appeal to me. Sure there was the 3d thing but colosseum/XD did it first so I wasn't interested. Then the fairy-type was introduced and then I thought, "interesting but whatever". Now, with Mega Evolutions and super training, I'm super hype for gen 6. Game Freak always finds ways to make the main series interesting in my opinion. Sure the formula is the same but that doesn't matter one bit to me. There hasn't been a single terrible pokemon game that I've played. So no I don't feel pokemon has as you so aptly put it "lost it's way". It has continued the same winning battle formula and continues to peak the interest of many with their interesting little toys to play with when you don't wanna battle.

    tl;dr Pokémon has not "lost it's way". It continues it's same basic formula while adding interesting things for people to do when you don't wanna battle or you wanna just try something different.
  5. ceelan

    ceelan

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    *slides myself into the thread*
    Like what was said many times before, I think a majority of us are just outgrowing the genre. I admit though pkmn b/w was definitely not the best thing for the franchise, and the designs are not as creative as before based on what we've seen, these are not the only issues; Pokemon's main problem is that they play it safe too much, and therefor miss opportunities to make the newer games more enjoyable. I think they might be realizing this, because they decided to step out of their comfort zone and add something totally new, while fully aware of the controversy, and resulting in people betting genuinely excited for it. However it would indeed be nice if they put more effort into their Pokemon, because I feel pretty bad when they create crappy and forgettable Pokemon. I feel like all they care about are the powerhouses that everyone's going to use in battle, and although that's fine I guess, there's no point in added space-wasting junk.

    I do hope they get their shit together a bit more than they had it in gen 5 tbh, but even if they have junk Pokemon the features they added will probably make up for it in the long run. I also hope that after all this we get a Hoenn remake.
  6. DarkEspeon

    DarkEspeon

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    Okay, that makes more sense. The only issue is that the only way for it to work region-wise is for the starting town to be in the middle and everything else around it, and that just seems silly
  7. Mulan15262

    Mulan15262

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    No, Unova could be made to work that way. If the gyms are in Nimbasa City, White Forest/Black City, Undella Town, Lacunosa Town, Opelucid City, Icirrus City, Mistralton City, and Driftveil City, then once you defeat Elesa, the game could let you pick which order you want to beat the gym leaders, and their pokemon's levels would change depending upon the order in which you battle them (if I lose to Clay, and then go on to beat Skyla, Clay's pokemon will be higher in level), and the plot events (like N getting Reshiram/Zekrom) would be triggered upon either beating the gym or entering an area.

    Although the trainers along a route would have their levels determined by your number of gym badges when they battle you, the trainers only related to plot events would have their levels fixed, and there would be a way of forcing you to deal with the event immediately, and not take your time.

    Of course, you don't have free will to take the gyms in absolutely any order you want as you have to defeat White Forest/Black City before you go to Undella Town, which you have to defeat before going on to Lacunosa Town, you would still have a lot of freedom to choose which order you want to battle the gym leaders in as you could choose to go up the sides with Opelucid City last, or you could go clockwise with Driftveil City last, or counter-clockwise with White Forest/Black City last, or alternating which side you pick with Opelucid City last and either Icirrus City or Lacunosa Town second-to-last, or many other options.

    Pretty much, there only needs to be a fork in the road with gyms in either direction for this to be possible.
  8. DarkEspeon

    DarkEspeon

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    We're talking about a 100% open world with absolutely no linearity and no end though. I might just not be understanding what he's trying to say, though, especially with the whole circular concept.
  9. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    qft

    honestly if you ask me it'd be when everything started to become profit-driven

    then again it already was from the start
    Hollymon likes this.
  10. Kyubey

    Kyubey

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    It happened when they created gen3.
    EVs ruin the gameplay imo, good for competitive playing however.
  11. Manitary

    Manitary

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    What? You can finish any game without even knowing what EVs are (except Battle Tower etc. but hey they're made to be difficult), how can they ruin the gameplay?
    (iirc, they also already existed but you could cap every stat instead of 2 at most)
  12. Kyubey

    Kyubey

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    It's just me I guess, but take this as an example, playing FR/LG I have a Kadabra and there's a fighting gym next, before knowing about EVs I'd sweep the entire gym only by using that single Kadabra, because it'd be more effective, but after knowing about EVs, I'd never do that because I'd totally waste tons of EVs in a useless stat... (attack being useless for Kadabra)
    Also, after knowing about EVs battling random grass pokemon is something totally awful for me, I always freak out worrying about wasting useless EVs on certain pokemon.
    Same goes for trainer battles, I always worry about using right pokemons and avoiding getting useless EVs.
    These kind of things didn't happen back on gen1 & gen2 days.
  13. R_N

    R_N
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    Except they kind of did
    http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Stat_Exp#Stat_Experience

    It sounds less like EVs ruined the game for you as much as being aware they exist. Which is on you, not the game
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  14. Kyubey

    Kyubey

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    EVs didn't really matter inGen 1 / 2, as you could max them all without worrying for filling your pkmn with useless stats.
    But now I must admit I am wrong, the problem is on me.
    Hopefully gen6 will solve this with that new EV training mini-game.
  15. RBG

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    Call me crazy, but why are you worrying about EVs for in game purposes?
    Monte Cristo likes this.
  16. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    What?

    If you went through the fighting gym as just Kadabra before why shouldn't you go through it now just because it gives you atk EVs. Pokémon is not so hard in-game that you have to ev train just to get through it. I never worry about EVs in-game because in the end I know it doesn't really matter.
  17. Kyubey

    Kyubey

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    I never implied it's hard to win, it's just that I enjoy the game less knowing my pokemon's stats are absolute crap.
  18. Cobraroll

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    "Absolute crap" is stretching it. For in-game purposes, EVs don't make that much of a difference. Most of whatever difference there is, only appears when your Pokémon nears lvl. 100, at which point you have easy access to EV reducing berries anyway. As for competitive battling, the random IV spreads you encounter means all Pokémon are outclassed anyway, perfect EVs or not. But again, in-game opponents will still be crushed by you Kadabra regardless of where you put its EVs. As long as its Nature isn't Adamant or something, it's still going to become powerful enough to mow down most things you encounter.

    If you want to raise a Pokémon for competitive purposes, that is a lot easier in postgame. At that point, you can choose more freely what Pokémon you encounter and thus how your EVs will be.
  19. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    My pokemon stats are absolute crap too. Everybody who doesn't concentrate on EVs ingame will be absolute crap. It doesn't matter at all though. If you want to edit your the evs your pokemon have you can do all that later. If the game isn't hard to win even when your pokemon has "absolute crap" stats, it shouldn't really matter.
  20. Double Electric

    Double Electric

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    Yeah, concentrating on EVs during the course of the plotline means you will pretty much not enjoy the game. It's much less stressful to just have an ingame team with no EV or nature consideration for the main story, and only worry about micromanaging postgame where you can breed new Pokemon using EV-boosting items and Pokerus and whatnot. The unlimited TM-feature of the newer games makes this much more feasible (and it's one of the additions where I think Pokemon has improved instead of declined).

    Really--Pokemon has gotten much, much better as the years have gone by. All the version-standard Pokemon games, are extraordinarily well done compared to the majority of games on their contemporary platforms. Even some of the titles I'd personally consider weaker (like RSE) are still at the top compared to most other games using the same handheld system. The battle mechanics, in-game features, post-game options and the fictional universe in the background have become impressively rich over time.

    Of course, a lot of the same developments that have made Pokemon better do also make it worse at the same time in some aspects. Going off the EV training topic, while the game mechanics are highly improved compared to the original game, the sheer overwhelming amount of micromanaging required to gain a team of competitively viable Pokemon without using a simulator is all but impossible for all but the most dedicated players who are willing to give up almost all their free time to pull it off. While obtaining elusive species, breeding for Natures/abilities and training EVs is still very doable for many people, the dimension of also needing high/perfect IVs in just the right places pushes the difficulty of training competitively viable Pokemon over the edge, and the extremely strict rules and exclusiveness of the wifi community aren't something for the faint of heart to just casually stroll into. I would consider it an immense improvement to the overall playability of the wifi environment if Gamefreak just ditched the mechanic of IVs altogether and simplified Hidden Power so that its base strength was always 70 (sorry technician users).

    As far as the gameplay itself goes, some people like to harp on the decline of the plot over time--really, Pokemon is a game designed almost so that the plot is more or less ignored and treated as a background feature. Gameplay is its strong point. If you think too much about how easy it is to just walk into Team Rocket's secret base and stroll out to chill at the Pokemon Center after every battle, you're thinking too hard. Quite honestly, I think the ecoterrorists of the RSE are extremely weak characters compared to Team Rocket (and don't get me started on Team Galactic), but I still think the gameplay of RSE is more fun than RBY.

    Competitively, there are also some mechanical imbalances that I think Gamefreak has handled poorly (Stealth Rock especially) and its pretty obvious that Gamefreak doesn't pay half as much attention to competitive battling as they do the in-game (I'm willing to bet that no one on Gamefreak's staff has even heard of this site for instance), but I don't think these flaws are enough to say that Pokemon has "lost its way".
  21. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    QFTMFT!!! I did an entire thread about this one subject over on the serebii forums. There was some discussion to be had (though a lot of it was about how randomized EVs on wild pokemon was a bad idea. I still think IVs should be outright removed from pokemon. It's just a silly way to add variety, makes getting into competitive battling more complicated than it already is, and imo even teaches bad lessons to children about selective breeding. (natures kinda do that to but it's not as pronounced as IVs are which is ironic considering IVs are a hidden mechanic in the game.)
  22. Bunselpower

    Bunselpower

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    TEXT.



    Black and White was annoying because of the mountains of text. Iris, Burgh, and every other main character beating the "love your pokemon" horse until it ended up in a European Double Quarter Pounder with cheese.

    I love the franchise, and one of my main things about the games are the pokemon designs. Gen 1 was in a unique spot, due to the limits of the gameboy (you haven't played pokemon until you've played it on an original gameboy), they had to stick to simpler designs, which was the best thing for the game. Pokemon always seems to work better when the designs are simpler. Legendaries are a great example. Gen 1, great, pure power. Gen 2, pretty great, Ho-oh is a little busy. 3, Rayquaza was always a bad design to me, but the other two were cool. Gen 4 (which imo had some of the best designs out there for regular pokes) had a little too much going on on Dia and Palk. Gen 5 was just awful, way too much going on, and BW2 just compounded the issue with the fusion.

    Looking at gen 6, I think since GF is working on an entirely different platform, they are going a little simpler, kind of a restart. X, its a forest/earth guardian looking deer. Love it. Y? A flying Wyvern that kind of hearkens back to Gen 3, and looks like something that could (and would) take out a 767 for the fun of it. Love it more.

    I won't lie, when I heard Mega Evolutions, I let preconceived notions about them get me down. "They'll be overdesigned...they'll be too busy...they'll be way OP..." They seem to be none of those things. (Except Ampharos, I still hate that thing)

    As somewhat of a Genwunner (a term I hate, because, seriously, I've been obsessed with this franchise since before the last three target demographics have been born, show some respect. And newer certainly does not always mean better), it certainly seems like pokemon is taking a step in the right direction with this new generation, going back for inspiration to the generation that garnered them the most success, the original, the gen with which my friends and I grew up, Generation 1.
  23. Ingo

    Ingo

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    I'm not going to air my views on whether Pokemon's lost it's way or not yet, however, one thing that keeps getting mentioned here that's annoying is this. "There are too many Pokemon to keep track of". That is just blatantly false. The human brain can process more than 150 Pokemon like it's nothing, and it doesn't take that long. But that's besides the point, my point is, say there are 800 Pokemon. Oh yeah, that seems like a large numb- BUT WAIT. Did you guys know that Pokemon are sometimes based off of real world organisms, and that, in the real world, we have billions upon trillions of organisms? :O This doesn't even go into the inanimate objects such as magneton which stack onto that number. Did you know that if Pokemon were a franchise based exclusively on catching beetles, it could last for half a century? So yes, until we've run out of every single organism possible, people really shouldn't be making that claim when Pokemon represents .000000000000000001% of all organisms. Especially when it takes 5 generations to make an eagle, 5 generations to make a centipede, 5 generations to make an ant, 6 generations to make a poodle, and 6 generations to make a pistol shrimp, all (More or less) basic common animals.
  24. khaozz13

    khaozz13

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    Pokémon never lost its way. All that has happened is that it has changed quite a bit. Some like it and some don't. That's all there is to it.
  25. Nathaniel Br

    Nathaniel Br

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    I wouldn't say its lost it's way but it does seem to be becoming more like digimon (something that was happening since gen 3). The designs have been becoming more over the top in a bid to beat each other.
    Gen 1: legendarys were just rare and powerful pokemon.
    Gen 2: They create the masters of the legendary birds and one to go along with the beasts
    Gen 3: (This is where it becomes most notable) They created the continents and Oceans.
    Gen 4: They ARE God, emotions and the rulers of time, space and anti-matter.
    Gen 5: They couldn't really top gen four but they tried: Ying and Yang
    They also have introduced things like different forms and fusion, which by themselves aren't bad, add up to just be annoyingly complicated. Perhaps the most blatant digimon type idea to be introduced is Mega Evolutions. Mega Evolutions just took already finished pokemon, and ruined their designs. With that said I wouldn't say pokemon has been ruined, but I wish it'd go back to it's roots.

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