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Who's Who in Doubles

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by BlankZero, Jul 26, 2013.

  1. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    [​IMG]
    Welcome to my 3rd Doubles RMT and my first since the forums got a facelift! Recently we started discussing Trends in the current doubles metagame. Another common discussion is the poor state of the Doubles Ladder up until you're facing someone with a 1900+ Ranking. But even a few of those teams/players are really not all that great. It's not until you start playing with regulars in IRC that you start to see what's actually good in the metagame, and what meshes well with what. Unfortunately, most people who play Doubles don't ever login to IRC, and the ladder shows this. Thankfully, Charizard is going down slowly in usage, but it is still very high compared to things like Latias or Deoxys-Attack Forme, which is just seriously wrong. Therefore, I decided to come up with a team that was, as the Title states, the "Who's Who of Doubles".​
    Now, the best part about this team is that you can adjust the movesets and EVs/Natures to fit your own playstyle. I'm going to provide my own (mostly) custom spreads here as they fit my style of play, and it works well, so feel free to borrow it if you're new to the metagame and learn what works so when you build your own teams, they don't look like...​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    And instead, look more like the following!​
    Team At A Glance
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Teambuilding Process:
    The process of making the initial team wasn't long, hard, or arduous in the slightest, believe it or not. I literally just looked at usage statistics for a pair of mons that worked really well together that were high on the 1850 stats, but much lower on the regular usage stats. I saw Hitmontop right away and Thundurus-Incarnate as well, and having used them as a very successful lead pair in the past, decided to base my team around that.​
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Next, I decided to use Tyranitar. This decision wasn't too hard either. TTar is #1 on the 1850 stats, and #3 on regular, making it a good choice for beginners and experts. It also has the benefit of helping to check Swift Swim teams, and a slow TTar is a great check to a lot of Trick Room teams, who are usually pretty weak to TTar's Crunch. Sand is also a great weather in general, able to turn those pesky 1% HP mons into KOs.​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next, I needed something to take care of Fighting types that threatened TTar. Cresselia is such a big name in Doubles, I just had to toss it in there. It has Psychic/Psyshock, access to a veritable arsenal of support moves, and has such huge bulk that most teams can't even kill it with 2 single-target Super Effective moves in one turn, making it a huge support threat.​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next, I wanted to use Excadrill, as it is one of the biggest threats in Doubles, and I'm already using TTar, so why not? Excadrill gives me a way to sweep through teams, and with a Flying type and 1 Levitate mon already, Spamming EQ isn't too hard. It also gave me my second heavy hitter on the physical side (not counting Hitmontop), so I decided for the last mon, I'd want a second Special Attacker, as Dual Intimidate cores of Top/Lando-T are a pain to deal with.​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Enter Rotom-W, one of 2 choices I had in this slot, the other being Gastrodon. While Gastrodon has Water immunity and is a good choice in Sand, I went for Rotom, as its unique typing and high Special attack, coupled with amazing coverage options and fantastic bulk. I'm not solid on it though, so this may change if I find Gastrodon a better fit.​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    After some testing and the comments below, I've decided Gastrodon makes a better fit for the team than Rotom-W. It gives me a Water/Electric immunity, and doesn't add any new weaknesses It also massively stops Rain teams, and Gastrodon is super bulky naturally, plus it gets more and more powerful as the opponent uses Water moves.​
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
    In Depth Look
    [​IMG]
    Shocktop (Hitmontop) @ Fighting Gem​
    Trait: Intimidate​
    Shiny: Yes​
    EVs: 252 Atk / 216 HP / 40 Spd​
    Adamant Nature​
    - Close Combat​
    - Fake Out​
    - Feint​
    - Sucker Punch​
    Hitmontop is easily one of the most common sights on teams today, especially in the upper tiers. The combination of Fake Out, Intimidate, and a very strong Close Combat nuke make Hitmontop a very solid option for almost any team.​
    While Hitmontop has a highly extensive movepool, I chose a more offensive set to add offensive pressure to my team. However, it would be just as easy to run other options, such as Wide Guard to block Rock Slide/EQ Spam, or even Helping Hand to give another team mate a little extra Oomph to their attack, especially a spread move, like TTar's Rock Slide, or Excadrill's Earthquake. On this particular set, I made it more of an Offensive Disruptor. Fake Out and Feint on the same set let me play head games with players, as some players like to Double Protect when they see Hitmontop come out, or if they are on their last percentages of HP, Hitmontop can secure the KO. This can be especially useful against things that draw a lot of expected Focus Fire, like Breloom, weakened Scizor, or any predicted Protect. It's also useful against predicted Wide Guards from opposing Hitmontop. Sucker Punch is a fantastic option just in case you know your opponent is going to go for the kill that turn, and gets out that last little parting shot, sometimes even killing a faster threat. Finally, Fighting Gem CC is one of the measures most people use when EVing for bulk, as surviving it can be tough, but manageable. However, when used correctly, it will kill things. Even Chople Berry TTar needs at least Intimidate support to survive a Fighting Gem CC.​
    The EV spread is pretty straight forward. With 216 HP EVs, you will dodge the 2HKO from 4 SpAtk Cresselia's Psyshock about half the time. 252 Atk and a positive nature give Hitmontop a lot of power for hitting hard. The rest of the EVs are put into speed, as several players have begun putting more and more speed creep into Hitmontop to get the faster Fake Out. Speeds up to 20-24 EVs are getting more and more common, so a good, solid 40 will prevent all but a few Speed Freaks from getting off the first Fake Out.​
    Hitmontop's role on this team is to provide Stat lowering support from Intimidate, as well as to Disrupt the opponent's strategy with Fake Out, or prevent Guard moves with Feint. It can even take out a faster mon first with Sucker Punch, adding to the chaos it creates. Close Combat is a solid STAB attack meant to soften things up for later in the match, or to outright kill things that are weak to it, like opposing Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, etc. and is useful when you just want to hit something nice and hard.​
    [​IMG]
    Genie (Thundurus) @ Sitrus Berry​
    Trait: Prankster​
    EVs: 20 Spd / 252 HP / 40 SAtk / 196 SDef​
    Calm Nature​
    - Thunder Wave​
    - Taunt​
    - Thunderbolt​
    - Hidden Power [Ice]​
    Thundurus-Incarnate is one of the most annoying/useful mons in the current Doubles metagame. Prankster Taunt and Thunder Wave stop a ton of strategies, from Trick Room to Tailwind to Weather Sweepers. It also has a lot of natural power and a great typing, making it easy to splash onto almost any team that needs a bit of its handy Disruption abilities.​
    The moveset here is pretty standard for Bulky Thundurus. Taunt and Thunder Wave are great for messing up opponents. Taunt stops Trick Room cold, as well as Breloom's Spore, Tailwind, and other Bulky Thundurus as well as things like Sableye. Thunderwave stops Shell Smash Cloyster, Volcarona, and every Weather Sweeper not named Excadrill. Thunderbolt and HP Ice for BoltBeam coverage, which is only resisted by a few things period. Other options could be HP Flying to hit Breloom much harder, Thunder as an added Rain Check, Grass Knot for hitting Gastrodon harder, Focus Blast for Excadrill, or even Substitute to give myself protection from Status or Sucker Punch.​
    The EVs are to give Thundurus a ton of bulk to stick around and Paralyze as many things as possible, giving me speed control of the match. With the given EV spread, Thundurus outspeeds all Base 70's and below (Breloom, Politoed, Cloyster) and with Prankster, can stop things even under Trick Room with Priority. While I could have gone with a much faster, more powerful spread, I feel Bulky Thundurus is a better choice for the goal of this team slot.​
    The role Thundurus plays is that of Primary Disruptor. TWave and Taunt plus extra bulk and Sitrus Berry means Thundurus will stick around a very long time to cause grief to the other team, either by slowing everything to a crawl, or denying their setup moves. This actually forms a great pair with Hitmontop, because after something gets Taunted, Hitmontop can fire away sucker Punches without fail (assuming the opponent doesn't just switch out of course) and after TWaving a faster opponent, Hitmontop can fire off with a huge Close Combat.​
    [​IMG]
    Darude (Tyranitar) (M) @ Chople Berry​
    Trait: Sand Stream​
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Def / 48 SDef​
    IVs: 0 Spe​
    Brave Nature​
    - Crunch​
    - Rock Slide​
    - Protect​
    - Fire Blast​
    Tyranitar is the second most used Weather Starter in Doubles, and #1 in 1850 Usage stats, and for good reason. With a 134 Base attack and great natural bulk, there's very few things Tyranitar fears, other than Fighting types. It's typing lets it threaten a lot of things currently in high use, like Thundurus, Cresselia, and many Trick Room users. It also has a very large movepool available to it, making it very versatile and unpredictable. In addition, its Sand Stream gives it a 1.5x boost to its Special Bulk.​
    The moveset I chose capitalizes on two things in particular, Tyranitar's massive attack and its Surprise Factor. Crunch and Rock Slide are standard, one to hit Cresselia super hard or to threaten it out, the other is a great Spread move that hits many things hard. Protect is there because it's one of the best moves in Doubles, easing prediction a bit, and even sometimes wasting an opponent's turn. It also has the added benefit, on this team, of adding a bit more passive damage from Sandstorm, sometimes enough to guarantee a kill, or just ensure it dies 1 turn faster. Fire blast is the odd man out on this set, but has good reason for being there. Fire Blast can and will OHKO Genesect, Scizor (248 HP/8 SpDef), massively dent Ferrothorn and Bisharp, surprise Abomasnow, and is a great fall back option if you find yourself hit with a good bit of Intimidate spam.​
    The EVs here are a variation of a custom set I crafted (with some help) for another team of mine. With the added bulk and some Intimidate help from Hitmontop, Tyranitar can live exactly one Fighting Gem Close Combat from opposing Hitmontop. Originally, there was some speed investment to outspeed Latios after Tailwind, however without such support on this team, the EVs have been reinvested back into bulk to help tank hits better, or at least live long enough to hit at all. A Brave Nature and 0 Speed IVs give it a super low 114 total speed, which helps when Trick Room is in play, as it's slow speed becomes a great asset against "slower" Trick Room mons, like Cresselia for instance. Overall, the EVs are designed to tank a couple hits before going down, all while dishing out some big damage.​
    TTar's role on this team is to first and foremost, set up Sand to mess with other weather types. secondly, it's there as a check to Cresselia. Lastly, its job is to kill things indiscriminately, so long as it's still alive long enough to do its first two jobs. As long as Sand stays up, I can pick off the opposing team, however, I don't switch in TTar JUST to get sand up. In Doubles, a team should work no matter what the field condition is. However, the current ladder doesn't seem to believe this because for some reason, most players with weather try and set it up no matter what, even if a switch at that moment would let me bring something more threatening in for free, but that's not a discussion for now.​
    [​IMG]
    DuckWall (Cresselia) @ Sitrus Berry​
    Trait: Levitate​
    Shiny: Yes​
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk​
    Bold Nature​
    - Psyshock​
    - Helping Hand​
    - Light Screen​
    - Icy Wind​
    The Great Wall of Cresselia. this thing is so bulky and hard to kill, every single team has a dedicated Cress counter, or two. Cresselia is one of the most centralizing forces in the Doubles metagame, and for good reason. It's massive bulk, coupled with a vast arsenal of support moves make it, by far and away, the ultimate support mon.​
    The moveset on Cresselia is always very tricky and will usually be tailored to fit each specific team it is on. In this case, I went with a Dual Attacking set, because getting Taunted is a very real threat with Cress. Psyshock over Psychic because it hits the Defensive side, rather than the Special side of things, which is surprisingly useful. Helping Hand lets me give things like TTar and Excadrill a boost before they hammer away with spread moves, or just give another mon a super powered single target nuke. Light Screen was picked because I wanted a way to help pad my team against Special threats a bit more, especially Rain threats. Icy wind is a funny move here. Most people will wonder about its placement over TWave as an option, considering I already have one TWave spammer, so why not a second one? The answer has a few reasons, the first being that getting locked into one single attack after being Taunted is an awful thing in Doubles, and Psychic is definitely not the best typing to get locked into with TTar, Heatran and Bisharp running rampant. The next reason is opposing Excadrill. TWave has as much use against Excadrill as spitting on a bonfire. At least Icy Wind hits neutrally and can give me a bit of breathing room.​
    The EVs are very simple here. Max Defense chosen over a Def/SpDef split due to Light Screen and the fact that Tyranitar and Bisharp exist. Not much thought was put into these because it is really just a bulky wall of a thing. You could give a bit more Special Attack or even Speed creep over other Cresselia, but unless you really have a need for it, maximizing its bulk is usually the best thing to do.​
    Cresselia's main role is ease the Special Attacks coming my way, to act as a pivot for Fighting weak mons on my team, to slow things down a bit with Icy Wind, and to make moves more powerful, supporting a faster sweep. Also, it acts as a hate magnet. People see Cress and usually try and kill it ASAP.​
    [​IMG]
    Blitzkreig (Excadrill) (M) @ Life Orb​
    Trait: Sand Rush​
    EVs: 204 Spd / 252 Atk / 52 HP​
    Adamant Nature​
    - Earthquake​
    - X-Scissor​
    - Rock Slide​
    - Protect​
    Excadrill is a huge threat and if Sand is up, can almost always give you the win condition. It has a huge base attack, and with Sand Rush, it will outspeed a ton of things and KO with its massive power.​
    Excadrill's moveset is pretty much EQ/RS/Protect/Filler. Although it's pretty standard, it's a standard set for a reason. With just 2 moves (both of them spread moves as well) it hits most of the metagame for at least neutral damage. With X-Scissor, not only do I have a second big answer to Cresselia, I also get perfect neutral coverage that I won't get with something like Iron Head (misses out on Bronzong). A bonus here with fast Rock Slide is the added Flinch chance, which can be huge, especially with that big 30% chance. Earthquake can be tricky to use, as it will hit your team mate as well if it doesn't have Levitate or is part Flying type, or if you use Protect that turn. Thankfully, I have 2 Levitate mons and 1 Flying type, plus, both of my Grounded mons have Protect.​
    The EVs are straight forward, but may confuse some people. Why not just go for max attack/max speed? Why not Jolly? Adamant Excadrill is scary enough, and with a Life Orb, it's even scarier. The HP EVs here allow you to dodge the KO from Sash Jolly Breloom, and Adamant only has a 25% chance of a OHKO. The speed EVs allow you to outspeed Timid Scarf Latios, although you could move 12 Speed EVs over to HP to still outspeed Jolly Scarf Terrakion.​
    Excadrill's role on this team is to sweep the opponent's team after TTar, Top, Thundy, and Rotom have had their way with it. It's a late game cleaner to the extreme, but can function mid game as a wall breaker, should you need to take out Cress.​
    [​IMG]
    Gary (Gastrodon) (F) @ Sitrus Berry​
    Trait: Storm Drain​
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 SAtk / 100 SDef​
    Modest Nature​
    - Muddy Water​
    - Icy Wind​
    - Earth Power​
    - Protect​
    Gastrodon is a huge threat to every Rain team that doesn't run Ludicolo or some other Grass type on their team. It completely walls powerful water types and laughs at Electric spam, all while tanking strong neutral hits. It also thrives in Sand, where its dual typing allows it to not take passive Sand damage, and is commonly seen in the role it fills on this team, as a Rain Check. It's currently sitting at #9 on the regular usage stats board, and for good reason.​
    The moveset here is one of Support Offense. Muddy Water is a fun move in Doubles. It's got the same power level as Surf, with a bit less Accuracy, however, it doesn't hit your team mate (Super important) and it has a 30% chance to lower your opponent's Accuracy by 1 stage. This can be huge when you're trying to give yourself a bit of breathing room with Kingdra breathing down your neck. Gastrodon is also my second Icy Wind abuser, giving me extra speed control versus things like Excadrill. Earth Power is my secondary STAB and works wonders against a ton of things, from TTar and Bisharp, to Heatran, and even Ninetales bringing in Sun to try and weaken Water types. Protect is there over Recover because sometimes you just want to use Gastrodon's luring capabilities, although the lack of Recovery on Gastrodon can be detrimental to its longevity. Still, most Gastrodons run Recover vs Protect (70% vs 16%), so you have a good chance of surprise factor.​
    The EVs here are from Lagalag4's suggestion below. With Rindo berry, Gastro survives Max SpAtk Ludicolo's Giga Drain, while also living through Timid Latios' Gem Draco Meteor. the rest of the EVs are dumped into Special Attack and given a boost from Modest Nature. after absorbing a water attack and getting a Storm Drain boost, you start to deal some serious damage, even with Gastro's subpar SpAtk stat.​
    Gastrodon's role on this team is as a major check to Rain teams. Spamming powerful Surfs/Hydro Pumps or just annoying Scalds is now that much harder just by having Gastrodon in the back. Mind games are always a great way to beat opponents or to lure them into a state of panic. It's secondary role is an Offensive Support mon, letting me slow things down, blind them partially (worth it when Thundurus Misses a Taunt or TWave), and just generally be a hard to kill nuisance.​
    Suggested Pairings and Synergies
    Coming Soon!​
    Closing Remarks
    Overall, this is the most generic team I could think of that actually works. It's designed to let anyone jump right into the Doubles metagame without too much prior knowledge and still do pretty well. It's also a solid team that someone with experience can easily take and make their own. If you like it, give it a try, I just ask that you keep the same nicknames. Rates, Luvdiscs, etc are also appreciated, especially on that Rotom set.​
    Importable
    Shocktop (Hitmontop) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Intimidate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 216 HP / 40 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Fake Out
    - Feint
    - Sucker Punch
    Genie (Thundurus) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 20 Spd / 252 HP / 40 SAtk / 196 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    Darude (Tyranitar) (M) @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 Atk / 160 HP / 48 Def / 48 SDef
    Brave Nature
    - Crunch
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect
    - Fire Blast
    DuckWall (Cresselia) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    Bold Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Helping Hand
    - Light Screen
    - Icy Wind
    Blitzkreig (Excadrill) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 204 Spd / 252 Atk / 52 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - X-Scissor
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect
    Gary (Gastrodon) (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 SAtk / 100 SDef
    Modest Nature
    - Muddy Water
    - Icy Wind
    - Earth Power
    - Protect
  2. Er Filethe

    Er Filethe

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    23
    Change cress ev spread to 252 HP / 52 Def / 4 SAtk/ 124 SDef / 76 Spd is for more resist some special attacks like dark pulse of hydreigon and you gain some speed
    Chople Berry in T-Tar to Focus Sash for resits CC of Hitmontops or other figthigns pokemons with figthing gem because with chople berry you didn't resits it
  3. Nollan

    Nollan EV Master Nollan
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    901
    The pokemon may be typical, but the sets are completely unique. I really have a hard time grasping the concept of generic pokemon though, the current metagame is very diverse and you cannot simply deem something generic, except possibly Cress. There are some pokemon that are more popular than others, though in my experience, this does not mean they are better.

    Interesting, Grass Gem Rotom-Wash, never seen it before. Pretty unorthodox. Also, the importable says Cress has Twave while the RMT says it has Icy Wind. Not sure which to go by.

    Well, first off, as better spread for Rotom-Wash that allows it to live Giga Drain is 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 SpD. This allows you to retain that needed bulk while not sacrificing power, which is really what Rotom-Wash tends to be about. I also really think Hitmontop would enjoy Wide Guard, your team is definitely weak to opposing Sand Rush Excadrill (most won't sacrifice speed like this team's does, and only Rotom-Wash/Hitmontop can dent it), and with no Wide Guard, this is compounded. I would say the Thundurus and Excadrill are the only truly 100% "generic" sets here, apart from somewhat unique spreads. I, as usual (might be my opinion, but whatevs), disagree with the Fire Blast Tyranitar, Fire Punch gets the job done, and the 85% accuracy is going to leave you wishing you had run Fire Punch fairly often. If you are worried about Intimidate, try a Defiantmon, Bisharp in particular has become fairly "generic" these days.

    I'll also say a bit about the teams representation of generic pokemon, since I think this is a big point here. Excadrill in particular I have doubts about, it isn't too common relative to other Steels like Metagross. Other than that, the pokemon are pretty generic, though either Gastrodon or Specs Thunder Rotom-Wash would be better for countering Rain.

    I guess I'll suggest some pairings/cores, that section needs something in it.
    [​IMG] + [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    These three are going to be the general Anti-Trick Room core. Based on the specifics of the team you face, you will lead with a combo of two of these, with the other in the back for backup. Thundurus is Taunt support, Hitmontop is Fake Out (and Intimidate), and Tyranitar is the raw power, Crunch can KO a large portion of Trick Room setters.

    [​IMG] + [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    This is basically an Anti-Rain core (pretty unusual, which I like), and it is a bit worse than it could be. If Excadrill weren't a key member of the team I would probably recommend Gastro & Sunny Day Cresselia, I have had lots of success with those two on less dedicated Sand teams (particularly the Goodstuffs ones). Anyways, Thundurus is good for slowing things like Kingdra & Ludicolo down, making them easier to handle. Rotom is the raw power, striking things down with Thunderbolt, and Cresselia is good for setting Light Screen, allowing the team to tank juiced-up Surfs/Muddy Waters better.

    [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    Should be fairly obvious, Tyranitar gives Sand support, allowing Excadrill to sweep/clean up teams.

    That's only two and a half three, but probably a good starting point.
  4. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,029
    First of all,
    Explain why. ¬_¬


    Now for my rate.


    This really is a good team, not to mention how great and detailed your descriptions are,

    BUT, I have a few small changes here and there, that won't really affect much of anything, except that I believe they fit your team better. They are not based around problems your team has, but rather small nitpicks I feel will help improve your team slightly.

    First change I would make is that I would change Rotom-W to Gastrodon. Basically, a well played rain team is a sand team's biggest fear, and surf spam is completely shat on by Gastrodon. Another reason is that you recieve another Icy Wind spammer (assuming you use this over Ice Beam), which will help your team greatly (especially with my next change). Gastrodon is not only a fantastic rain counter / check, but also immune to Sandstorm, meaning that you won't be indirectly damaging yourself.

    The set I would use is the following:

    [​IMG]
    Gastrodon @ Rindo Berry / Sitrus Berry
    Modest Nature
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 SAtk / 100 SDef
    - Muddy Water
    - Icy Wind / Ice Beam
    - Recover / Protect
    - Earth Power

    The given EVs allow Gastrodon to always survive Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from Latios, and then dumping the rest in Special Attack. I would highly recommend you run Icy Wind over Ice Beam for speed control, but Recover vs Protect is for you to decide.

    Now that you have all this speed control, I think you have found a reason to use Landorus-I over Excadrill. Basically, it works the exact same way, with more bulk and a free boost from Sand Force. Basically, it can work wonders with Icy Wind spam support.

    The set I would use is as follows:

    [​IMG]
    Landorus @ Ground Gem / Life Orb / whatever the fuck you want, you play doubles regularly too :p
    Adamant / Jolly / Nature
    EVs: idk like 252 atk / 252 spe / 4 HP
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect
    - Substitute / Hidden Power Flying / Explosion

    Landorus fits fantastic on your team with all the speed control, and with Hitmontop providing Fake Out support. It should be simple why you should use it; with speed control, it is bulkier and as strong (if not stronger) than Excadrill, whilst speed not mattering too much. It also can run Substitute + Protect very effectively for super mindgames :D

    That's it for this rate, you might be able to optimize some EV spreads, but I don't care haven't the time for that. Nice team you got though mate :)
  5. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    I'm gonna say that the EVs you've listed are for VGC? In Smogon Doubles, the levels are 100, not 50, so the EV spreads from VGC are off by quite a little bit.

    As for Sash vs Chople, I prefer ChopleTar as it lets me live Focus Blast from almost anything as well as the random Mach Punch with my invested bulk, but I'll keep the idea in mind, however if I went for Sash, I might as well dump the bulk investment.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    @Nollan: I'll change the importable and start on my Pairing descriptions soon. It was about 3am when I finished the write ups. Also, I think you should try Grass Gem Rotom on your next team if you have Gastrodon issues. It's such an amazing lure.

    I would love to put Wide Guard AND Helping Hand on Top, but I just have 4 moves to work with! What would you change up to fit Wide Guard?

    Fire Blast honestly is a better pick. It has 120 base power vs Fire Punch's 70, it hits the Special Side of the Metagame, which is what makes it such a good Scizor check, as well as roasting Ferrothorn, and it's not affected by Intimidate, which gives me the advantage of not having to switch out quite as soon. I have used Fire Punch in the past myself and found it very lacking. There's a bug difference between OHKO and 2HKO when Scizor can cleanly kill you before you get the second turn.

    @Laga: I will definitely check out Gastrodon in later testing, as Rotom's role is a bit shaky overall. I forgot it gets Icy Wind as well, so I'll definitely be looking into it. Also, I like that you suggested physical Landorus. I'll look into giving him a try as well, but he doesn't quite fit the "Generic Doubles" mold as well as Lando-T does :/
  7. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,029

    That's true, but I was mostly thinking about the actual team build, you don't have to edit the RMT ;p
  8. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839

    Ya, that sounds good then. I'll work out the Gastrodon set and edit that in, but Landorus is a bit advanced compared to Excadrill lol.
  9. lucariojr

    lucariojr it's nothing to sneasel at
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,594
    i'm not sure why you have feint on hitmontop considering you don't have many moves to abuse feint with, and i am of the opinion that sucker punch is basically a waste of a moveslot on hitmontop. first of all, i doubt your thundurus outspeeds breloom, which is the big thing that you'd want to feint with your current team imo. your other pokemon typically hit pokemon that want to switch out rather than take a hit such as other thundurus and cresselia (with ttar), and with earthquake, you're gonna want to protect your own hitmontop. i'll come back to feint later, but for now, i can definitely tell you to change sucker punch for wide guard.

    if you're considering changing your rotom for something, how about changing it to gyarados? i think it would provide you with a lot of welcome firepower (with which to abuse feint), more intimidate support and another eq-immune pokemon. it also has great synergy with excadrill type-wise as gyara resists fighting and fire while excadrill is immune to electric and resistant to rock. here's the set i was thinking about:

    Gyarados @ Choice Band
    Adamant Nature
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Waterfall
    - Ice Fang
    - Earthquake
    - Double Edge/Return

    you might want to tinker with the speed and such, but for now, max speed is needed to outspeed neutral base 80's (and some thundurus since apparently people are too lazy to invest in speed), but unfortunately comes up short on outspeeding or tying with jolly breloom. choiced gyara also very much enjoys sand damage because it turns a lot of its ability to turn some 2hko's into ohko's, as seen with stuff like bulky thundurus. gyara is a pretty decent landog check as well, as long as you keep it away from stone edge, and i think this is all the more important considering landog has a tendency to eat sand teams whole, but in general i just feel like your team is lacking a heavy hitter and gyarados would help you patch that up while also offering some support. :)

    i think x-scissor is kind of redundant on excadrill considering you already have some good checks to stuff like cress and latios, unless im forgetting something. i think it would do you some good to consider toying with swords dance coupled with focus sash, or ground gem+substitute. sash swords dance could be an excellent lead strategy with hitmontop, since you could easily fake out something, set up a swords dance, switch to ttar while excadrill protects, and finally switch ttar out for a floater and wreck everything with a +2 earthquake. substitute could work with life orb too, but i think ground gem would minimize self-inflicted damage. with substitute, you can fish for paralysis or hydro pump misses, or simply take advantage of a double protect. sub also goes a long way in defeating landog and sometimes breloom, as landog can't intimidate a sub and breloom has to work its way around the sub to get to the chewy center while taking more earthquakes than it cares to stomach. furthermore, with double intimidate and light screen working for you, the sub might be bulky enough to actually take hits.

    i'd recommend changing a move in favor of trick room on cresselia to better your odds against trick room. personally, i'd change icy wind because it does much of the same thing that thundurus is doing. helping hand is kind of slow on this team in my opinion outside of excadrill, but mostly i just think that it's the weakest link besides icy wind. as such, i think you should change hh to ice beam to get damage off on landog, because again, landog will eat you alive if you allow it to. other than that, you might want to try psychic over psyshock simply because it ohko's breloom much more easily than psyshock can.

    ok, back to feint now. assuming you made the changes, your team is slightly more offensive and ready to murder helpless 'mons. feint especially works well with gyarados, as again, it likes chip damage and it can ohko a lot of the things your team has trouble with if given an opportunity. swords dance excadrill might ko hitmontop in the process, but on the upside, you're probably taking metagross, kyurem, volcarona, and other annoying stuff down with it.

    k im tired of writing atm so have at it
    tlyee61 and Audiosurfer like this.
  10. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    This is a long post, so I'll respond to it in bits and pieces.

    I can try Wide Guard over Sucker Punch. I do like having that extra priority as I don't have much on this team and Cloyster has proven to be an issue in the past. This way, I can kill even if it has Sash, but I'll give it a try. I'll address Feint below.

    But first,
    Max Speed Jolly 252 Breloom - 262 Speed

    Neutral 20 Speed Calm Thundurus-I - 263 Speed

    When up against a Base 70 mon, a Base 111 mon dosen't need much investment. :)

    First, I'm going to try out Gastrodon, since Laga rated me first. If it turns out to not be a great addition, I'll give this a try, but I might go with more of a bulky supporter with TWave and Sub. I haven't had any issues with Landorus funnily enough, but I see where the apprehension would be. I'm actually looking into trying out SubProtect Lando-I over Excadrill to alleviate the problem should it arise. Gyarados is a very good mon though. SpartanMalice got me tripped up with his team who uses one as a Landorus Counter if I remember correctly.

    SubPro Excadrill might be just the thing for me. I'll definitely give it a try. Dangeous sweepers behind a Sub is always trouble, and Excadrill would be no exception, although I feel like Sub AND Life Orb might be a bit much on it's health. Any suggestions concerning that?

    Interesting thoughts here. Firstly, I hate the idea of Trick Room on Cress, especially if Thundy is going to be Paralyzing as many things as it can before dying. I could see using it to reset opposing TR, but I really don't have a noticeable TR problem yet. The only thing of interest it can't paralyze is opposing Excadrill, hence Icy Wind to knock it down a peg or two so my own Exca can manhandle it. Helping Hand is just kinda there, you're right, but I have used to great effect before, especially with the aforementioned speed drops letting TTar start outspeeding things and dropping HH Rock Slides on fools.


    This thinking is exactly why I have Feint, break Guards and/or Finish off mons trying to stall out another turn. The team is surprisingly offensive as it is though, regardless of how it looks. You should know that I play pretty risky already, which means I play pretty offensively as well. I will give some these suggestions a shot though soon.

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