Why do we use Bold Blissey?

[Bologo]

this doesnt change the fact that the 1.2 x sp.def is much bigger then the 2.3x defence.

30 is about 2.7x 11

so that 1.2 is almost 3 times bigger then the 2.3 def.

Like I mentioned with the Shuckle example, with defenses, raising the LOWER defense is always more beneficial, even if that defense is HP.

I know her stats would increase more with a +SDef personality, but as I mentioned in my wall of text, it simply just doesn't help as much as if she were to have a +Def personality.

Simple, let's look at this. Take 1 stat point and divide by 56 which is her minimum defense, then multiply by 100 to get the percentage. That percentage is 1.78%

Special defense. Take 1 point and divide by 306 which is her minimum special defense and multiply by 100 to get the percentage. That is 0.32%.

Looking at this example, it proves that when you're putting EVs into a lower stat, is just simply counts for more. Then with personality, you multiply that by 1.1 and you get more of those stat points that count for more rather than ones that will help a bit, but not much.

This is why we use Bold Blissey.

Does that makes sense now?

 

[Alienjesus]

ok, that example teaches me that it'd rawk to have a max sp.def sassy skarmory! awesome....i'll train one now ¬_¬

i mean his sp.def is crap, and his defence is awesome....more beneficial to put things in the lower defence right?

 

[Jumpman16]

ok, that example teaches me that it'd rawk to have a max sp.def sassy skarmory! awesome....i'll train one now ¬_¬

i mean his sp.def is crap, and his defence is awesome....more beneficial to put things in the lower defence right?

why even come to smogon if you are this unwilling to learn from those who have more experience than you, seriously

 

[Synecdoche]

You're still forgetting the fact that we said not to take away the 252 Def Ev's Syn.

The calculations in question were addressed to a deleted post questioning why Blissey should use defense EVs at all (which is not the issue at point) and was thusly deleted

ok, that example teaches me that it'd rawk to have a max sp.def sassy skarmory! awesome....i'll train one now ¬_¬

i mean his sp.def is crap, and his defence is awesome....more beneficial to put things in the lower defence right?

Your sarcasm fails to amuse =] take a look at Skarmory's stat distribution: in the defense realm 65/140/70. Skarm's defenses are strictly more highly increased by a 252 investment in HP either way, the 252 in Defense is most likely the fact that because Skarm does not have a HP total like Blissey it cannot as reasonable take Physical attacks with the same repose as it used to. Consider Tyranitar's DD-Stone Edge or Heracross' CB-Close Combat, both of which are easily 2HKOs

 

[ΩDonut]

If you plug in Blissey's stats into X-Act's EV Defense Efficiency Calculator, you'll notice that it doesn't even begin to recommend using a +SpDef nature until you get to a 70% SpDef bias. In other words, unless you're EVing Blissey to take some seriously strong special hits, Bold is still your best bet.

 

[TechnoCore]

I've been using a calm blissey for a while now, and I find that giving it protect compensates for the drop in defense almost completely(leftovers recovery turns many 2hkos back into 3hko's), and as an added bonus makes scouting/stalling a thousand times easier.

 

[Alienjesus]

why even come to smogon if you are this unwilling to learn from those who have more experience than you, seriously

sorry, i didn't mean to strike a nerve, i just fail to see why we should increase blisseys defence by such a small amount (after 252 defence EVs which i can understand) when it shoudltn be taking physical hits anyhow. an unexpected physical hit should be handled by Blissey quite well anyway, and surely the sensble thing after that would be to get her out of harms way?

If calm nature seems pointless , why not modest, surely there can be no downside to a little extra oomph from your ice beam?

 

[Calciphoce]

sorry, i didn't mean to strike a nerve, i just fail to see why we should increase blisseys defence by such a small amount (after 252 defence EVs which i can understand) when it shoudltn be taking physical hits anyhow. an unexpected physical hit should be handled by Blissey quite well anyway, and surely the sensble thing after that would be to get her out of harms way?

If calm nature seems pointless , why not modest, surely there can be no downside to a little extra oomph from your ice beam?

Ah, but then you've got pursuiters. You CAN'T switch out without getting hit, so you're screwed either way with non bold nature

 

[Surgo]

What do you mean "Blissey shouldn't be taking physical hits"? Why the bloody hell not? Where do people even get this impression from?

Blissey is capable of doing quite a number on many threats; letting it survive a hit and fire back an OHKO when you would otherwise get swept for some reason cannot be anything but beneficial.

As for Bold vs. another nature, I'd say the 10% difference in damage taken is quite enough to convince me. The number of times you will not be at full health far outnumber the number of times you will.

 

[Deck Knight]

this doesnt change the fact that the 1.2 x sp.def is much bigger then the 2.3x defence.

30 is about 2.7x 11

so that 1.2 is almost 3 times bigger then the 2.3 def.

No. What you're talking about is the stat point increase. Its 30 points vs. 11, but those 30 points, as a percentage, is smaller than the percentage increase provided by the 11 points.

Example: If a physical attack were to hit Blissey for 300 damage, The bold nature would reduce that damage to 270.

If a special attack were to hit Blissey for 100 damage, The Calm nature would reduce that damage to 90.

By going Bold, you have slashed 30 points off an opponent's attack damage. Since Blissey will almost always be eating physical attacks after a switchin, that reduction in damage does a lot more for it than the miniscule boost in SDef does.

It isn't the base stat that matters, it is what the 10% increase does to reduce damage from the most likely variety of attack your pokemon will be taking. Since Blissey recieves damage from physical attacks the overwhelming majority of the time, it makes sense to give it defense. Your interest is more in turning 3HKOs into 4HKOs, than 2HKOs into 3HKOS. The more turns Blissey gets from being able to eat an additional hit instead of Softboiling, the more useful Blissey becomes.

 

[Alienjesus]

that mad emore sense to em then the numbers in the above post stating the same thing.

i submit, bold does seem to be the preferential nature, although i still see modest or calm as valid options, but i'm obviously a little wierd like that.

 

[Bologo]

sorry, i didn't mean to strike a nerve, i just fail to see why we should increase blisseys defence by such a small amount (after 252 defence EVs which i can understand) when it shoudltn be taking physical hits anyhow. an unexpected physical hit should be handled by Blissey quite well anyway, and surely the sensble thing after that would be to get her out of harms way?

If calm nature seems pointless , why not modest, surely there can be no downside to a little extra oomph from your ice beam?

There's lots of people that use Modest Blissey. Just more people use Bold because you have to invest a whole lot of special attack EVs for Ice Beam to be worthwhile (needs 267 sp. attack to OHKO the 4x weak to ice dragons). This will either make you die from a feather because you'll have crappy defense, ir you'll have to take it away from your HP which will hurt both sides of the defense spectrum for Blissey. I think 267 special attack is like 228 SP ATK EVs with a Modest Nature. Then you'll be using 252 EVs for either HP or Defense. This only leave 28 EVs for something else, which is only 7 stat points. While it will help your defense a little, you'll still die from the baby toe.

Heh, yeah, so Modest nature is alright. I suppose if you're using a Calm Mind Blissey it's an alright choice.

 

[Articanus]

ummmmm....
if blissey wasn't bold and had no Defense EV's, CBtar would run right over her.

 

[Havak]

ummmmm....
if blissey wasn't bold and had no Defense EV's, CBtar would run right over her.

Please, read the thread before you bother to post. This thread has nothing to do with removing Def EVs from Blissey.

I can see now why Bold is preffered. But I still feel that Calm is a very valid option, and if using Ice Beam Modest can be excellent too.

I love discussions like this, it makes Smogon what it is. I'm glad to have created one, with help from Kinneas who originally asked the question.

 

[Chill]

Bold is the "better" nature because it's going to help you more than calm or modest. If a physical pokemon is attempting to sweep Blissey can be just the pokemon you need to endure that one hit and KO or shut them down with a thunderwave.

While calm/modest gives you a higher stat increase the difference recieved with Bold is more important and noticable. This is of course depending on where you are using Blissey.

 

[obi]

Blissey gains only 11 stat points in Defence from using a Bold Nature, this is only ever resulting in around a 5%~ difference in damage taken. Is it really needed that much? I can't think of any situation where that 5%~ is really making a drastic difference.

Blissey takes about 9-10% less from physical attacks with Bold. This is because Bold is a, you know, 10% increase in Defense.

So, are the benefits of having 11 more Defence better than having 30 more SDef or 18 more SAtk? Though I know people won't always be going max HP on Blissey, this is just an example. But that would allow for even more Special Attack or Special Defence. With heavy hitters like Porygon Z and Alakazam having Choice Specs, and with Focus Blast running around, the Extra SDef will grant greater Defence against these "threats". I haven't damage calc'd anything yet, but I'm just trying to find out why this is the standard over Calm.

I'm going to make this one big because it's really at the heart of most misconceptions in this topic: The actual stat is irrelevant, all that matters is the % difference. Natures always give a 10% increase, so in these examples, it's 10% less from physical attacks, 10% less from special attacks, or 10% more doing special attacks. Blissey already takes almost all special hits with ease, so Calm won't do much, but Bold on Blissey can turn some 2HKOs into 3HKOs. If I am using special attacks, however, I often use 252 Def / 252 SpAtk Modest, or something like that.

Blissey's Defense is so low that giving it max IVs, EVs and a Bold nature roughly halves the amount of damage that it would take if it had min EVs, IVs and had a defense lowering nature. Its Special Defense and HP are so high that boosting them will make very little difference overall.

Again, invented math. Blissey has 22 Defense minimum if you are so cursed as to have the absolute minimum Defense. Blissey has 130 maximum. This equates to taking roughly 17% of the damage you would have taken with min.

Let me support this with some figures:

Adamant max Atk Dugtrio's Earthquake vs Bold max Def/148Hp EV Blissey: 26-31%
vs Calm Blissey: 28-34%
(Actually, it's pretty much a 4HKO, either way.)

Again, this is way off. Actual calculations are closer to 49-58% damage to max HP, max Defense, Bold Blissey from Adamant CB Dugtrio, and 54-64% to Calm Blissey. This means you are 3HKOed about 50% of the time with Bold, and are always 2HKOed with Calm.

CBMence's Dragon Claw vs Bold max Def/148 Hp EV Blissey: 49-57%
vs Calm Blissey: 53-62%
(Calm Bliss is easier to get 2HKO'd.)

Blissey is always 2HKOed by CB or DDed Salamence Dragon Claw, assuming max Attack.

hey 0 defense evs 0 defense ivs blisey dies to physical attacks lol

Removing Bold != 0 Defense EVs and IVs. It just means... removing Bold.

As for me, I always use Bold if I'm not pumping Special Attack in OU. If I'm using a special attacking Blissey (especially CM Blissey), I use Modest. In ubers, I use Calm and max Special Defense because stuff there hits a lot harder. Of course, you should still use max Defense unless you want to get swept by Aqua Tail Kyogre or whatever.

 

[Mr.E]

Nature is a percentage boost. 10% is 10% whether you're applying it to Blissey's Def or SpDef. It doesn't matter that the numerical boost from Calm is three times as much as from Bold.

Blissey should never have any less than 252 Def EVs, that much is obvious. The Nature is less a big deal because it's a percentage boost. Blissey can take physical hits better than most people give it credit, but it's main purpose is still to wall Special attackers so Calm isn't a bad choice. However, the amount of physical attacks that deal right around 50% damage to Blissey (such as CB Dugtrio EQs, Metagross MMs), not to mention getting worn down by Pursuit and U-Turn, still make Bold the superior choice.

 

[Pyr0]

Well, this isn't exactly related to the debate, but it shares some ideas on it.

What about Blissey using Modest nature over Bold:

We lose 11 Defense points.
We gain 24 SAtk points.

I believe, that by using Modest nature, we maximize the EV investment by reducing the number of EVs needed in SAtk for the Anti-chompness factor.
and instead use the unused EVs in the HP department.

EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd / 8 SAtk

So... lets compare this Bliss with standard Bold Bliss.

24 more HP
11 less defense
same in everything else.

So... does the HP increase at the cost of defense is worth it?

Lets look at it this way, More HP makes almost the same effect as defense (tho not the same) but also allows to her to suck up even more in the special side.

Leftovers recovery increases (something that's always good)

But... she is a tad weaker to physical attacks, however, she's not meant to take physical attacks (don't misunderstand this, she isn't meant to take 'em; but she CAN)

Overall is a matter of choice and personal preference.

Tell me what you think*

* Please note, that this is pure theory, and I have not tested it in actual battles.

 

[cmg474]

@ Pyr0:

I thought of that too but found it won't work.

You gain ~3% HP and lose ~10% Def. Percentages are more important than actual stat gains in this case. That's why Bold is better.

 

[Pyr0]

@ Pyr0:

I thought of that too but found it won't work.

You gain ~3% HP and lose ~10% Def. Percentages are more important than actual stat gains in this case. That's why Bold is better.

Yeah, I did the percentages too, but theres something missing in them:

Factor in the better leftovers recovery, AND the fact that it can now be safer against things like SpecsZam Focus Blast.

 

[Synecdoche]

Using Focus Blast:
Timid 252 Specs Alakazam vs 252/252 Bold (or neutral) Blissey Damage: 44.12% - 51.96%

Modest 252 Specs Alakazam against Bold(neutral) Bliss Damage: 48.32% - 56.86%

70% x 70% = 49% chance to hit 2 Focus Blasts in a row, (48.32 x 2 - 56.86 x 2) = (96.64% - 113.72%) maximum damage range of 2 Focus Blasts. Avg given 2 Focus Blasts, 105.18%

The number to beat, given Leftovers: 106%.

Meaning, Even if you hit the both Focus Blasts, there's still a 50% chance that Blissey will survive to Softboiled.

Alakazam 2xFocus Blast
42% of the time, out of 2 Focus Blasts you'll only score a hit with 1, 9% of the time you'll miss both times *and swear like a sailor*, 49% of the time you'll score both hits and then a little less than 50% of that time you'll manage to deal lethal damage within 2 hits, (given that the opponent doesn't know that you're running specs, *albeit how obvious it should be) So... we're talking about roughly, I'd say, 75% of the time that a Specs Alakazam is faced with a Blissey switch-in it will fail to 2HKO it.

Given that all this headache is "solved" by running Calm still doesn't mean that Specs Modest Focus Blast Alakazam is ever an "Optimal" scenario to 2HKO a switchin Blissey.

 

[kamikaen]

Blissey really has enough special defense, so in standard play, I don't think there's much of a reason to use Calm, or any SpDef EVs. There might be a reason to use Modest, though, especially on CM Bliss. Special attackers can't really do much, and even Focus Blast Alakazam can be beaten with a Blissey's Softboiled.

I think the idea with the extra points of defense is that it's so low already, 10-20 points becomes 15 percent of her defense, lowering damage by quite a bit...

 

[Hyra]

Hey, why not instead of using a nature to boost SDef, we take some EVs from that monstrous HP? Blissey only needs like 320 SDef to survive most stuff in Standard. That's 14x4=56 EVs. You can surely spare those from HP or SAtk. The only reason not to run Bold in standard is on CMBliss so that you can reach the 269 SAtk required to break 4HP Raikou's sub.

 

[metroidmania]

I see this guy's point. And besides, people aren't taking into account things like Focus Blast, and Nasty Plot, things that not even Blissey can survive if the conditions are right. Calm would help, and the loss of about 5% more wouldn't hurt, would it?

 

[X-Act]

The real reason is this.

The lower the base stat is, the more of a difference it will make if you max it out.

In the case of Blissey, it would have only 56 Defense if you don't put any EVs or personality in Defense. Compare this with 130 Defense if you max it out. That is around a 133% increase in defense, meaning that Blissey with max defense only takes around 3/7 of the damage from physical hits using max defense than using the normal defense. That means 300 damage instead of 700 damage, which is a huge improvement.

Comparing this with its Special Defense stat, Blissey without any SpDef EVs would have 306 SpDef. Maxing it out would make her have 405 SpDef. This is only around a 33% increase in Special Defense, meaning that Blissey with max Special Defense only takes around 3/4 of the damage from special hits using max SpDef than using the normal stat. That means 60 damage instead of 80 damage, which isn't really a big improvement.

So which is better?