Why the split qualification of tiers? (Alternative Tiers)

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Let me be up front right here. Depending on who you talk to, there are 5-6 different tiers (Ubers, OU, BL, MU, UU, NU). Of these tiers, there are three that seem to played with any regularity (Ubers, OU and UU), one that is a faux tier (BL), one that isn't really accepted by the community at large (MU) and one that is a relative joke and used for novelty games at best (NU). Furthermore, the way these tiers are split up is by two factors: popularity and power. So, in essence, we have three real tiers, a joke tier and a fluid tier designed to represent the ebb and flow of pokemon popularity. Does this seem a little... overly complex to anyone else? It seems to me that this system could use a bit of streamlining.

But let's start with what I consider the core problem of the current tier arrangement: the duality of a pokemon's ranking. In all other forms of competition, rules, bannings and the structure of metagames are focused WHOLLY on what is powerful and what is not. Popularity and amount of use should have no place in deciding where things belong. So why, at Smogon, the premiere pokemon battling website, does popularity and use have ANY place in deciding the tiering of a given pokemon?

There should be one deciding factor in where a pokemon is placed, and that is their personal power. The ONLY thing that adding a factor of popularity does is complicate matters and force the inclusion of useless tiers (such as the aforementioned faux tier, Borderline). Further, it forces a constant shifting of tiers to deal with the flux created by a change of popularity which to me seems, once again, silly. Pokemon pointlessly flow between the unused Borderline tier and the Standard tier without really changing anything. This creates the illusion of a fluid and dynamic metagame, when all that's really happening is a pokemon is moving from a faux tier into the one that's really played (and vice versa). Besides, isn't the goal of breaking things up like this (essentially, banning certain pokemon from the respective metagames) to create a stable and balanced environment to play in?

Which brings me to the next point. Why do we have 5-6 different tiers? Let's break this down, starting with the obvious one. Standards. This is the metagame that is designed to be broadest, the most competitive one and the one that is used for all regular play. Essentially, it should be the baseline of competitive pokemon play. Simple enough, and quite necessary. This is essentially Legacy, for you Magic the Gathering players.

Next up is Ubers, which is also necessary. Essentially, this is the "banned" list for pokemon. This is where the Black Lotuses and Yawgmoth's Wills of pokemon go. These are the things that are just simply too good for the Standard metagame. This is also a necessary seperation, as it protects the integrity of the Standard tier. This is essentially Vintage, for you Magic the Gathering players.

At this point, we have absolutely everything we need for a true metagame. Anything else is unnecessary. However, since people get tired of standards, we can create a third tier to play in. Essentially, a tier for things that are Sub-Standard (the moder UU). This gives another play environment and further establishes what forms the backbone of the standard environment, while giving a secondary environment to play with the little pokemon. A "little toys" environment. This is essentially standard, for you Magic the Gathering players.

In essence, this is what I'm proposing: that the tier lists be broken into three seperate metagames: Ubers, Standard and Underused (with a better name, but whatever). Furthermore, rather than making them tiers per se, they should be written as environments, structuring them with lists of banned pokemon instead of "allowed" pokemon.

This eliminates the messy stigmata of the faux tiers (not good enough to be used in OU but condemned to be unplayable in the only other common environment) and eliminates the ridiculous and pointless arguing about whether a pokemon should be OU or BL (since, like I said, there is really no difference between OU and BL pokemon, given that no one really uses BL as an actual tier... its either mushed into UU or ignored entirely). Furthermore, it streamlines the environment and eliminates the need to know 5 or 6 different tiers (which could well change randomly based on popularity surges).

It allows for the same balancing as the current system, emphasizes only competitive requirements and eliminates all confusion about the tiering system (I.E. no more "Manphy/Tyranitar/Whoever" can't go up a tier because he sucks there, and thus needs to stay down, because they are simply banned from the given environment, not "promoted").

So, once more, to reiterate my proposal, would look something like this (please do not take my tier listings seriously, I'm just using the pokemon as examples to show off what I think the way the tiers would be arranged looks).

Ubers
Banned Pokemon: None

Standard
Banned Pokemon: Mewtwo, Deoxys, Kyogre, Groundon, etc

Underused
Banned Pokemon: Mewtwo, Deoxys, Kyogre, Groundon, Salemence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc

Anyhow, thoughts? Comments? Problems? Viability?
 
That is what the tier lists are.

Ubers have none banned.

Standards Ban Ubers.

Underused bans BL, Standard, and Ubers.

I don't see whats so hard about it :-/
 
Its not that complicated, no, but its all about presentation and eliminating waste.

Without wanting to go hugely into it again right this moment, just look at your breakdown. Right there we already have a completely pointless tier: BL. You have three metagames drawn out, but have four tiers. Why? That's what this suggestion is all about. Streamlining the system, removing the ridiculous factor of popularity and eliminating confusing about how things are decided and structured.
 

Firestorm

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That is what the tier lists are.

Ubers have none banned.

Standards Ban Ubers.

Underused bans BL, Standard, and Ubers.

I don't see whats so hard about it :-/
He's saying that NU and BL are both unnecessary tiers. Which is pretty true.
 

Hipmonlee

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Well, you are pretty much right on all counts. But the true explanation of the BL tier comes when you think about how to create the UU tier. So you have figured out what has to be removed from Standard to achieve a ballance. I am gonna use the RBY example because it is easier.
Uber Tier:
Mew, Mewtwo

Right. So now you play OU for a while and you get bored, and decide you want to play UU. At this point, you have to consider useage. If you only consider Balance you will most likely end up with a tier identical to OU. So you look at the most overused pokemon that you dont want to use in UU and create that tier.

OU:
Tauros, Chansey, Starmie, etc..

Now you have a whole list of pokemon that are appropriate from a useage perspective, but there is no consideration of ballance. You eliminate these pokemon from UU and end up with BL. Granted this tier is not necessary to be distinguished from OU from a battling perspective, but who really cares..

NU is for the purpose of NU battling. It is necessary if you want a NU battle..

Have a nice day.
 
Ah, but could a similar effect be created by just instating a blanket ban of things that limit OU (the Dragons, the "true OUs," etc) instead of generating another silly tier?

Look at it sort of like Magic the Gathering (I apologize for using this example repeatedly, but its the most similar to the pokemon environment that I can come up with off the top of my head, and accurately represents my idea). We have Vintage, which allows all the uber awesome stuff. Its one metagame all its own. Next we have Legacy, which bans all of that major stuff, which creates an entirely new metagame.

It would seem like you could well do something with pokemon. *shrug*

Edit: And yes, it is. Except that nobody ever really plays NU. Albeit, my experience could be skewed. But then again, the same could be said of any tier. If you wanted to play a tier where the top of OU was cut-off, you'd have to make a new tier. So on and so forth.
 

Hipmonlee

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I dont know much at all about mtg so I am not 100% certain I follow you, but I am pretty sure that is what we have.. The Uber tier is made up of pokemon too good for OU, but you can play Uber battles if you want to, and you arent limited to only pokemon in the Uber tier?

[edit] - Also I am not in any way endorsing a True OU tier.. I personally dont like the idea much..

Have a nice day.
 
If we used your tier system, then the current UU would be called NU, and the current NU would need a new name.

So in essence all you have suggested is a name change for every tier!
 
To try and clarify, for the most part, my system isn't as massive an overhaul as my wall of text would suggest. Basically, I am proposing a simplification of the system in the following ways: eliminating the element of popularity from competitive arrangement, discarding waste (notably the BL tier), streamlining presentation (eliminating confusion about why something belongs in Tier X, eliminating arguments that things shouldn't be moved in tiers because they aren't good enough for the higher tier, simplifying, however insignificant it may be, the annoyance in keeping track of tiers) and making it easier for future fine tuning/creation of additional tiers/development of additional formats.

To another degree, I am also suggesting a focus on two main metagames: one that mimicks Overused and one that cuts out the worst offenders from Overused to create a broader and more varied metagame.

Nevertheless, thank you all for your commentary thus far.
 
Having a BL tier is, in my opinion, simply a hint for newcomers of what works and what doesn't. BL is just for pokes that are generally picked less than most of the OU, but still too powerful for UU. It's less of a tier of it's own; more like a subdivision of the OU tier. Likewise, NU is a subdivision of UU. MU is what needs to go- It seems basically to be a no-man's land for the bottom of OU/BL.

Finally, you mention popularity- tiers constantly change. If a mostly sucessful strategy is devoloped and spreads widely, you can bet that a counter to that strategy will be found. The counter may involve pokemon that normally seem lacklustre, but have a saving grace or two in the current metagame. True, the lacklustre poke didn't get any more powerful, but it does make a lot more sense to include it on an OU team than before, and so it's usage increases. The pokemon tiers are seemingly meant to document the increase in usage rather than raw power, so it's alright for them to be swayed in popularity as new tactics are discovered and ideas are aired. It is a hugely complex game, after all- summarizinf in a few tiers is always going to be debatable work.
 

Firestorm

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The BL tier list isn't completely a waste. Think of it like in SSBM. There's Top Tier, High Tier, Middle Tier, Low Tier, Bottom Tier. Why? Because although there are only two metagames (unrestricted and Low), there is a large enough difference between the characters of each tier that they aren't on the same level.

The same can be said for these Pokemon. Although there is no BL metagame, Charizard just isn't as good as Salamence. However, Charizard doesn't belong with the likes of Macargo.
 
Except that in SSBM the tiers are both smaller and closer together, and there are also other circumstances. In Smash skill>tiers, not so much in Pokemon.
 
Additionally, its worth noting that pokemon tiers aren't really like fighting game tiers. Fighting game tiers tiers serve as a simple measurement of character potential, whereas pokemon tiers are more akin to individual metagames.
 
Zinkoxide... I assume you didn't see that video with a Trick-Room Shuppet, Dunsparce, and something else beat out a full out Uber team?

Shuppet's first turn was Trick Room... hung on with Focus Sash. Second turn was Destany bond, killed Giratina, exploded his Smeargle and swept with his Dunsparse.

Skill is very much part of the equation. The thing is, most people on Smogon are at the level where tiers are going to begin to matter. However, pokemon is a significantly more complicated game than SSB:M... namely because the strategy in SSB:M is between like 3 or 4 choices at most... although you have to have the extreme dexterity to pull off these strategic sets.

(I have more skill than my sister for instance... but she has better strategy. She can outpredict me in SSB:M)

Oh, SSB:M is a good game :-) Just it has much less strategy in Pokemon, thats all I'm saying.
 

chaos

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with both BL and OU the tier list not only shows use, but power. OU/BL pokemon are powerful, OU are used more out of the bunch so you know what to expect. I think this idea actually makes the tier system worse.
 
A fair enough explanation, chaos, and I could see the reasoning behind keeping it.

The problem I see with it though is that it can well be misleading and problematic though, because a singular tier list is trying to to represent several different things:

1. Its trying to subdivide the environment into various metagames.
2. Its trying to convey the overall power of given pokemon.
3. Its trying to convey the regularity of given pokemon.

And I really just don't think its possible to convey these three things with any degree of accuracy with one list. Two and three are liable to conflict regularly and, additionally, this sort of listing could well skew the perception of certain pokemon in the minds of competitive gamers by either providing a false sense of security against certain pokemon or unfairly representing the potential of certain pokemon because they aren't common.
 
I think one thing that fucks up everyone's minds about the tiering system is the name for BL, boarder line. This, by far, sends out the wrong impression on the tiering system.

I recommend that BL be changed to Base Line, meaning all of the pokemon you would normally expect in a standard battle and aren't outclassed by other non-ubers.

Overused isn't exactly a tier. It is a list of pokemon that are stables on most teams. Pokemon like Tyranitar, Blisssey, Salamence, ect.

Under Used, like Ubers and BL, is a tier. It basically involves all the pokemon that aren't outclassed by something of similiar typing. For example: Why use Dragon Dance Lapras when Gyarados does the job better? This is basically a tier for people that are sick of the standards and want to play the game based on strategy than on pure power.

NU is just a tier for extremely crappy pokemon like Dustox. These poke's are so week that they would get demolished even in UU.
 
ForumAddict: I think considering a reassessment of the presentation of the tier list is important too. Besides, given that the tier discussion has temporarily been locked, well, why not discuss the system until we can get back to Ubers and OUs?

L2m6w5: A large part of my decision to adjust things is based on the fact that a lot of the current tier list and the arrangement of the metagames is relatively misleading.
 
The problem I see with it though is that it can well be misleading and problematic though, because a singular tier list is trying to to represent several different things:

1. Its trying to subdivide the environment into various metagames.
2. Its trying to convey the overall power of given pokemon.
3. Its trying to convey the regularity of given pokemon.

And I really just don't think its possible to convey these three things with any degree of accuracy with one list. Two and three are liable to conflict regularly and, additionally, this sort of listing could well skew the perception of certain pokemon in the minds of competitive gamers by either providing a false sense of security against certain pokemon or unfairly representing the potential of certain pokemon because they aren't common.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything said here. There is a fundamental fallacy in the logic behind the current tier system. To ignore it may be easier, but to address the issue could be hugely beneficial to the game as it is played around these parts. With the transition between generations there is this huge opportunity to change the way the tier system works, and I think it would be foolish to not fully consider the benefits of this change.

...

More to come on this subject. (*queue dramatic chipmunk music*)
 
First off, a criticism of your write-up - avoid all the parentheses that you used. Parentheticals should be asides that, while pertaining to the topic, aren't overly important. You have quite a few worthwhile, important points placed in parentheses, which leads to quite a chore while reading. My eyes want to skim the parentheses, only to find there's something actually important there, leading to me backtracking and re-reading.

WARNING: Wall of text follows

I felt like making two points on one seperate thing that held my interest.

1.) God I wish they still went by Type 1, 1.5 and 2 for Magic. Standard, Vintage, Legacy...bleh. I'm glad they made that switch after I stopped playing.

2.) At least when I was still playing, Pokemon's OU would've been the equivalent of Magic's Standard (Type 2, then), if only because hardly anybody played anything but Standard/Type 2.

I felt like commenting in the other tier thread before getting lazy, but it's relevant here as well. Comparing Magic to Pokemon isn't even like comparing apples and oranges, it's like comparing apples and Apple computers. They may seem similar (they both say apple!), but really, they're light years apart. Without going off on too much of a tangent, the big difference is Magic has a metagame that is constantly changing and adding things, with new additions every couple of months, whereas Pokemon has a self-contained set of things that sees new strategies. It's not as if we're going to see Pokemon Purple, Pokemon Brass and Pokemon Opal all by the end of the year, each with completely new additions.

To stay on-topic, while "tiers" like BL and NU are kind of unnecessary, so is changing the format. It's not as if anybody who is using this site seriously is going to have any trouble in distinguishing what can and can't be used where, and to what degree. To use Firestorm's example, Charizard would in theory be BL because he typically can't hang with the likes of 'Mence and co. and wrecks the likes of Magcargo and co. I fail to see where so much presumed confusion is coming from. The tiers aren't rocket science. Can it be streamlined? Sure. But anyone who knows enough about the system to be discussing it with the kind of intent contained in this thread doesn't need the streamlining. Frankly, anyone who comes to the site and can't grasp the tiers probably is going to struggle with many other concepts as well and should take some time to read up and study before trying anything more seriously.

As for your idea for tiers of Uber, Standard and UU, it seems nice in theory, but actually adds to the current tiers in practice.

Your proposed UU would be a tier where the common, "very strong" threats of OU are removed. It's essentially a rethinking of Hipno's proposed OU tier, where the Base 600s and such would be removed, only for yours it's just common, powerful threats like Gyarados would be removed. Presumably, current common stuff like Bronzong, Tangrowth, Gallade, Starmie and such get to stay, where Dragons, Gyarados, TTar, Cressy, maybe something like Infernape are gone.

Okay, so that seems nice, but your Uber and Standard tiers really are just what the current Uber and OU tiers already are. Beyond that, there's still going to be a desire for something under your proposed UU tier, because there will still be a few people who want to use the many things that still won't be up to snuff there. Let's say we create that tier as well.

What we've done now is eliminate BL, by your request (which is really just conceptual and not a tier anyways), and created:

Uber
Standard
your UU
new UU tier

to replace

Uber
OU
UU

I don't list BL here, because nobody plays BL as a metagame. It's really just a list of Pokes which happens to be included in tiers.

BL's unnecessary for a tiering system where every tier is meant to be used as it's own metagame, but in the current environment, anyone who knows what the heck they're talking about knows it isn't, and knows it's just a distingushing of some Pokes that aren't UU.

Moreover, if I were a betting man (and I am, don't tell the government! shhh!), I'd wager while some people would try your version of UU (I'd give it a shot), most would still stick with Standard/OU, which would basically lead to a waste of time creating the newfangled tiers.

Obviously it's at least a bit presumptious to say that, maybe the new tiers would be put into practice and absolutely take off. I'm just saying I don't find the odds to be in favor of it.

Adding your proposed UU tier would also lead to more bickering. Let's propose TTar does not get banned to Ubers, but gets banned from your UU. Now we have:

-The people who do want TTar banned to Ubers.
-The people who don't want TTar banned to Ubers.
-The people who feel X should/shouldn't be banned, citing TTar as an example.
-The people that do want TTar banned from UU.
-The people who don't want TTar banned from UU.
-The people that feel X should/shouldn't be banned from UU, citing TTar as an example.

I think you have some decent ideas in theory, but given the environment that's already established, I think it'd open up an even bigger can of worms than what there already is.
 
Popularity and amount of use should have no place in deciding where things belong.
I stopped reading here (actually, I stopped reading earlier and gave it another chance). Really, where did you even come up with something like MTOU or whatever you call it...
 
Meh, I thought the nintendo method was better:

These pokemon are banned from this tournament, have fun.

In the end of the day I think it's the two battlers who decide their own tiers, not the general community.
 

Deck Knight

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I always thought the system we had, while imperfect because people argued over specific pokemon on the UU/BL line, was a whole lot better than nothing.

The primary function of tiers as far as pokemon is concerned has been to establish different metagames.

The Uber metagame, while techinically a free-for-all, isn't. It has the pokemon that are about 70-80 stat points above every other pokemon, with good abilities and large movepools to boot.

Standard cuts out the Ubers and is primarily dominated by the 600 Club, who themselves outpace a lot of other pokemon by 50 Base Stat points. Other pokemon that frequent this tier are non-uber heavy hitters and pokemon that can prey on the 600 Club's weaknesses.

Underused exists for the middling pokemon who can't properly adress the strongest threats in standard, but are still useful in their own right. Underused serves as a getaway from standard that is still very strategy-oriented.

Borderline exists as a false tier designed to house pokemon that unbalance the UU metagame like Ubers unbalance the standard metagame. They aren't popular/don't really hack it in standard, but in UU they can, for example, sweep half a team.

Neverused exists for those pokemon so thouroughly outclassed even by UU pokemon that you never see them. An example would be Feraligatr completely outclassing Seaking as a physical water type, or Gastrodon doing the same for Lumineon. Most of your starter Bugs land here so often that I (at least) literally refer to them as NU Bugs. Neverused still has its usable pokemon for that metagame, and it still has some strategy, but its nearly as limited in choices as Uber is.

Land of Misfit Pokemon: A false tier which includes such greats as Luvdisc, Luvdisc, Luvdisc, and Unown.
 
While I will agree that I am in favor of simplifying and standardising the metagame tiers, I wonder if that's at all possible with the fact that in the Pokemon metagame every Pokemon that becomes "standard" is so versatile that it's nearly impossible to keep it on one tier list (hence the usage level also dictating where Pokemon are placed) for any permanence. M:TG is not the best analogy for Pokemon- each banned card doesn't have an extremely lengthy list of what it can do for you; the cards exist for a sole purpose, and when they're broken it is extremely easy to spot. It's not the same for Pokemon, and while I wish there were a simpler way to tier the metagame than we currently have, I see no way to do so (other than removing BL- I would be completely behind that decision).
 
Welp, it was worth a thought and since the overwhelming response is negative, I suppose the thought has been had. Feel free to lock this if you like. However, I'd like to address a few secondary points.

AlleyViper: I'm well aware of my slightly problematic use of parentheticals. Trust me, it comes up quite often on my essays (college, English Major, etc :P). Its something of a stylistic thing for me, and one that's been with me for a good, long while, making it practically unconscious to do. Its a pain. :p

Mekkah: One, its relatively disrespectful to post something like "stopped reading here," especially to a part that, clearly infers I'm missing something you in your immense wisdom knows more about. Its generally more useful to explain yourself, you know? Secondly, MTOU? What the hell are you talking about?
 
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