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ORAS OU Wonder Trio

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Branflakes325, Jun 25, 2015.

  1. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bold new taste
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    311
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Hi Smogon!

    First off, I apologize for all of the suffering I've been causing on the ladder by introducing Shedinja-based fat teams. I understand that this strategy is stupid to face and only worsens the match-up issue we already deal with on a regular basis. That being said, I'm honestly surprised that it took over half a year for Shedinja to start seeing some use in ORAS OU. With the addition of the new ORAS mega evolutions, a few dominating forces were introduced to the OU metagame such as Metagross, Altaria, Lopunny and Diancie. On the defensive side of the mega evolution spectrum, we got Mega Sableye - a pokemon known for its ability to control the hazard game. In one way or another each of these new megas actually made Shedinja more viable than ever before. For what it's worth, Shedinja has always been one of my favorite pokemon and its unique type/stats/ability have always been intriguing to me.

    #1 peaks (open)
    Alts: 1 percent evil, 99 percent hot gas, audino spumoni, mole breaker, talonphlegm, hp fat
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Don't ask me why I used the same team on multiple accounts. That's just how I ladder lol


    The Team

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    It looks like someone already beat me to posting a successful Shedinja team in OU. Although our teams share four of the same members by pure coincidence, there are a lot of subtle yet significant differences that make both of our teams unique from one another. This team fares pretty well against all kinds of teams ranging from full stall to cancer pass to hyper offense, while being particularly effective against rain offense. Like any team it has a fair share of weaknesses and most likely has room for improvement, so rates and feedback are always appreciated. Even with the team's shortcomings, I've managed to top the ladder multiple times and get many accounts to top 10. I'd even go far enough to say that the combination of Shedinja, Sableye and Dugtrio is borderline broken, but that's a discussion for another time.

    Team Building Process

    Show Hide
    The idea of creating a foundation for a team using Shedinja, Sableye and Dugtrio didn't come spontaneously. The team actually started off as a semi-stall team without Shedinja that kept getting destroyed by Manaphy amongst a few other common threats. I ended up replacing something with Shedinja out of desperation, and quickly realized that I needed specific support roles if I wanted Shedinja to be anything but a liability. Dugtrio was a given, being able to pick off Tyranitar while proving to be a surprisingly manipulative force in any given match. Mega Sableye was somewhat of an obvious choice as well, being as it is by far the best option for hazard control. This has been proven by my previous Sableye team, as well as the appropriately-named Sableye team "Hazard Control" by our fellow based lord tele.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The rest of the team-building process was a matter of finding the right partners for the trio. I figured it would be best to start off by using non-specific blanket checks, so I threw Chansey, Skarmory and Heatran on the team and tested it out on the ladder. Admittedly, not much thought went into this part lol.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    As always, Chansey was far too passive and I couldn't expect to win just by bringing fatmons. So I decided to replace it with fellow fatmon Clefable for less-passive cleric support. Still too passive though.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    At this point the team wasn't terrible, and it got a bit of publicity by annoying Jamvad during one of his recording sessions. Though, that particular match only showed that the team is still pressured by common hazard leads such as SD chomp. I ended up replacing Skarmory with Togekiss as a near fool-proof way of beating Garchomp in the hazard game. Furthermore, Skarmory was too passive and was often unable to perform its job of clearing hazards while setting its own.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Next, Clefable was replaced by Ferrothorn who assumed the role as a special wall and hazard setter. In terms of defensive coverage, its purpose was to sponge electric and water attacks aimed at Togekiss and Heatran respectively.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Heatran and Ferrothorn's resistances were a bit redundant, so I ended up switching Heatran with something more self-sufficient and less prone to being walled and whittled down. I figured that the same specially defensive Manaphy set from my previous Sableye team would fit in perfectly by being a solid special wall with good utility.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    From there, the team didn't really need more changes to be effective. I considered replacing Manaphy with Politoed or SpDef Sap Sipper Azumarill to better handle Zard Y, but both just allow the team to be steamrolled by SD Talonflame which seems to be even more common.

    I eventually ended up making changes to the team anyway. Manaphy and Ferrothorn made a decent specially defensive core but left the team weak to some relatively common OU threats.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    -------------------------
    Team Breakdown
    -------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Shedinja
    Item: Focus Sash / Safety Goggles
    Ability: Wonder Guard
    EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
    Nature:
    Lonely (+Atk, -Def)
    IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
    Shadow Sneak
    Will-O-Wisp
    Protect
    Baton Pass


    Although the team is primarily built around Shedinja, the rest of the team benefits equally from Shedinja's immunities. For example, common threats like standard Manaphy, Mega Metagross, Mega "unresisted stab" Lopunny, Latios and NP Thundurus would otherwise be difficult to wall. Other common threats such as Clefable and Altaria have to choose between fire coverage, instant healing and/or setup moves which means that my team would be able to handle any given set. I chose Focus Sash over Safety Goggles, and I believe the latter option is too situational considering the structure and weaknesses of the team. The most common weather setter at the moment is Tyranitar, who also happens to be one of the best pursuit trappers in the tier, thus mitigating Shedinja's ability to deal with Tyranitar regardless. Hippowdon, however, is really the only prevalent downside to running Focus Sash, though seeing Hippowdon on the opposing team doesn't necessarily make Shedinja useless. More often than not, Focus Sash allows me a free turn to land wisp on something like Knock Off BD Azumarill and SD Scizor. Furthermore, Focus Sash ensures that I cannot get pursuit trapped twice by stuff like Bisharp and Weavile, both of which are handled by Dugtrio if they manage to break Shedinja's sash. I still slashed sash with Safety Goggles, because it is a viable option that can make a huge difference if you expect the opponent to use Hippowdon or any other dangerous weather setter.

    Shadow Sneak - Useful priority that allows Shedinja to deal the most damage possible against opponents capable of breaking its focus sash. Obviously it should be used with caution in the face of Garchomp, Ferrothorn or any potential Rocky Helmet users. Secret Power isn't an awful option if you would rather use that, but usually when Ferro/Garchomp is alive there isn't anything stopping me from spamming wisp. Generally, it's the best attack to have when Shedinja and/or the rest of the team is in a pinch.
    Will-O-Wisp - Shedinja's best option for crippling opponents, whether or not they are able to hit Shedinja. This is extremely useful when Shedinja forces switches, as well as when the rest of my team relies on Shedinja to halt a potential sweep.
    Protect - Simply useful for scouting and taking advantage of burn damage.
    Baton Pass - Especially useful for catching Pursuit trappers like Bisharp, Weavile and Tyranitar, all of which can be trapped and KO'd by Dugtrio. Also incredibly useful for maintaining switch initiative.

    EV/IV Spread - Maximizes attack while making Shedinja one point slower than Clefable. This allows Shedinja to freely Baton Pass against any CM mono-attacking Clefable that would otherwise be very troublesome for the rest of my team. Defense was reduced as much as possible to ensure a 100% chance to KO opposing Ditto with Shadow Sneak. The remaining 100 EVs were put into HP for um....bulk.
    calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Ditto: 308-366 (102.6 - 122%)
    252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 168-200 (64.8 - 77.2%)
    252+ Atk Shedinja Shadow Sneak vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 158-188 (61 - 72.5%)



    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio
    Item: Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Nature:
    Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
    IVs: 20 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
    Earthquake
    Reversal
    Stone Edge
    Toxic


    The pursuit-trapper-trapper. Dugtrio is as amazing as it is awful. Its fearsome STAB earthquake often fails to OHKO stuff like Raikou and Bisharp, while Reversal doesn't even come close to KOing Kyurem-B or Chansey at max base power. Futhermore it just loves getting flinched by stuff like sand excadrill Iron Head and Weavile Icicle Crashes because it recognizes its own worthlessness in this tier. On the other hand, Dugtrio is incredibly manipulative and capable of clearing a path to victory for Shedinja and the rest of my team. Tissue paper defenses are more of a blessing than anything, because of how easy it is to maximize the power of Reversal with Focus Sash.

    Earthquake - "powerful" STAB
    Reversal - Excellent for ensuring a KO on Tyranitar and other Steel/Ice/Normal types. It's the only move that can really touch Chansey.
    Stone Edge - Stone Edge was chosen over HP Ice as a way to threaten Zard Y, Talonflame and Mega Pinsir in a pinch. With Dugtrio's pitiful attack I can't afford to run Rock Slide because it isn't going to KO anything.
    Toxic - Chosen over Substitute as a way for Dugtrio to wear down most opponents that normally don't fear any of Dugtrio's moves. It also helps me deal with Chansey by ensuring damage prior to hitting it with Reversal. If Chansey for has its own Toxic for some reason then Dugtrio is screwed, but that set is definitely uncommon.
    Hidden Power Ice - Allowed Dugtrio to deal at least some kind of damage to non-scarfed Landorus and Garchomp, both of which are usually not at all threatened by Dugtrio's presence.
    Substitute - Gave Dugtrio a way to manually bring its HP to 1/201 which was useful for picking off Chansey in the face of an opposing stall team, as well as some Kyurem-B sets. Considering changing to Stone Edge solely for Zard Y and Mega Pinsir, but Substitute has been pretty useful in random situations.

    EV/IV Spread - I figured it wouldn't hurt to sacrifice some speed for a little bit of extra power behind HP Ice. There are no significant benchmarks for Dugtrio(375 speed) between Alakazam(372) and Scarf Tyranitar(364). Simple max attack and speed, Jolly nature needed to beat Scarf Tyranitar and a bunch of other things. The IVs minimize bulk and put Dugtrio at 201 HP to make 50 HP subs.
    calcs (open)
    252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 418-492 (65.1 - 76.6%)
    252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 316-372 (80.8 - 95.1%)

    rip
    [​IMG]The switch-trap loop[​IMG]
    Shedinja and Dugtrio are able to use their respective abilities to force an opponent to lose switch initiative if they use any pokemon that is unable to touch Shedinja. Take sub CM Keldeo for example: If the opponent has any pokemon that discourages the use of Shadow Sneak (ie rocky helmet/chomp/ferro) it is difficult for the Shedinja user to actually beat Keldeo. Using Baton Pass however, gives you switch initiative and a safe switch to Dugtrio. Since Dugtrio traps Keldeo, you can use this turn to hard-switch back to Shedinja and repeat the cycle until Keldeo switches out. When Keldeo does switch out, you will have used Baton Pass and can take full advantage of the momentum. Baton Pass + Dugtrio has an effective 128 PP without taking Shedinja's other moves into consideration, which allows it to out-stall almost anything.



    [​IMG]
    Sableye [​IMG]
    Item: Sablenite
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
    Fake Out
    Foul Play
    Will-O-Wisp
    Recover


    In terms of supporting Shedinja, Sableye is an absolute necessity for hazard control and keeping momentum in the presence of common hazard setters like Garchomp, Landorus-T and Ferrothorn. Considering the majority of hazard setters with the exception of Heatran are physical attackers, I figured a fully physically defensive spread would make Sableye's job as easy as possible. This means that its set has to facilitate mega evolution in the face of strong special attackers like Mega Diancie and Gardevoir, all while needing partners that can take on these powerful threats. The CM Mega Sableye hype seems to have died down and people are beginning to realize how much of a nuisance Sableye is with Knock Off/Foul Play.

    Fake Out - Mega evolving Sableye is crucial to my team's success, and Fake Out allows me to achieve mega evolution against anything that isn't LO Inner Focus Alakazam with Dazzling Gleam. Believe it or not, Fake Out is useful as a damaging priority move in plenty of situations. Highly preferred over Protect, because it prevents stuff like Talonflame from grabbing free boosts.
    Foul Play - Excellent for preventing SD/DD setup sweepers like Talonflame, Lando-T, Gliscor and Zard X from running through my team. With the exception of Zard X and maybe +2 Earth Plate Lando-T, Sableye can take a boosted attack and hit back hard. While Knock Off is essential for this kind of team, I replaced it with Foul Play knowing I could give Knock Off to Seismitoad instead.
    Will-O-Wisp - A given for most Sableye sets. Burns are excellent for crippling most hazard setters while making it easier to wear down the many special attackers that switch into Sableye.
    Recover - Useful for being fat.
    Knock Off - The best attack in the game. Given to Seismitoad instead.

    EV Spread - Maximum defense to deal with most hazard setters. A few points are invested in speed to safely deal with any Ferrothorn lacking Gyro Ball. You'll notice most of my EV spreads have 248 HP, which is for reducing passive damage from hazards and status. Having an odd number HP is better in most cases - correct me if I'm wrong.
    calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 144-171 (47.5 - 56.4%)

    Unfortunately can't afford to switch into this :(


    [​IMG]
    Togekiss
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Nature:
    Bold (+SpD, -Atk)
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Air Slash
    Heal Bell
    Defog
    Roost


    Togekiss is my defogger of choice, as it counters one of the most common hazard setters: Garchomp. It seems that standard and common Garchomp teams are fully prepared to deal with Sableye, whether by being paired with Gardevoir or running Lum SD. In the latter situation, Togekiss has nothing to fear and can Defog away the hazards even in the face of Bisharp. When I am forced to Defog on Bisharp, I can sacrifice a member of my team (usually Ferrothorn) to reliably revenge kill +2 Bisharp with Dugtrio, often clearing a path for Shedinja to do whatever it wants. Togekiss is also a reliable check to HP Fire Latios and plenty of other physical and special attackers like non-banded Azumarill and non-specs Keldeo. Considering my team cannot simply plow through opposing stall, cleric support is an absolute necessity making it very difficult for the rest of the team to be worn down. Togekiss in itself is actually a fairly decent stall-breaker with nothing more than an uninvested Air Slash.

    Air Slash - Trusty STAB with 400% flinch rate. Works excellently in tandem with my team's ability to spread burns against slower pokemon.
    Heal Bell - Nice for healing off Scald burns that cripple Sableye and Ferrothorn, as well as curing Manaphy when it is forced to Rest without using Rain Dance.
    Defog - Necessary because Sableye can't always prevent hazards. This set is more or less Clefable with wings and the ability to clear hazards.
    Roost - Good for stalling out SD Knock Off Gliscor and being fat.

    EV/IV Spread - Almost the same defense spread as that of Sableye, but minimizes attack for reduced Foul Play damage. Togekiss makes a surprisingly effective physical wall capable of sponging Bullet Punches from Scizor, Ice Punches from Conkeldurr, and Stone Edges from Landorus-T.
    calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 180-212 (48.2 - 56.8%)
    252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 178-210 (47.7 - 56.3%)
    252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 142-168 (38 - 45%)
    252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 300-360 (80.4 - 96.5%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 129-152 (34.5 - 40.7%)
    [​IMG]
    Talonflame
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
    Nature: Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
    Brave Bird
    Will-O-Wisp
    • Taunt
    Roost
    previously ferrothorn (open)
    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature:
    Sassy (+SpD, -Spe)
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Gyro Ball
    Power Whip
    Leech Seed
    Stealth Rock


    The previous four members of my team are physical walls paired with the least bulky pokemon in the game, so it makes sense that the last two members are special walls. Ferrothorn is a standard yet necessary bulky steel type, chosen over Heatran for being less easily worn down and being able to check a few common water types. Its typing covers my team's weaknesses to Fairy and Electric, while maintaining decent offensive presence with powerful STABs and the crucial ability to lay hazards. I did not want to delegate the hazard-setting role to Dugtrio, whose sole priority is to eliminate key threats with every chance it can get.

    Gyro Ball - Usually Ferrothorn's strongest STAB for nailing opposing Gardevoirs and Gengars after surviving a Focus Blast.
    Power Whip - Reliable secondary STAB that really helps against Knock Off Azumarill and plenty of other water and ground types that take minimal damage from Gyro Ball.
    Leech Seed - This is useful for two things. First, it makes Ferrothorn a really difficult pivot to wear down, especially when it catches a switch-in with Leech Seed. Secondly, it offers an additional way to deal passive damage to dangerous setup sweepers like SD Knock Off Scizor.
    Stealth Rock - The best move in the game. Ferrothorn gets many more opportunities to use this than Dugtrio does.

    EV/IV Spread - Though there may be a more optimal spread for Ferrothorn, I chose to maximize special defense to give it the highest chance of living Focus Blasts and Heat Waves. Ferrothorn's purpose is to be a consistent line of defense against special attackers. 0 IVs and a -speed nature to maximize Gyro Ball's base power.
    calcs (open)
    252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 224-264 (63.8 - 75.2%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 221-263 (62.9 - 74.9%)
    252 SpA Tornadus-T Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 240-284 (68.3 - 80.9%)
    Talonphlegm is my most important line of defense against potent special wallbreakers including Zard Y and LO Tornadus-T. The utility it provides between Taunt and priority makes it an essential member of the team for shutting down opposing defensive cores, as well as picking off frail attackers like Weavile, Alakazam and Gengar. Although Will-o-wisp may seem redundant with two other users, it gives Talonbird a way of punishing Lando-T, Tyranitar, and almost anything else that would normally make Talonflame a dead weight. Spreading burns on opposing offense teams makes them incredibly easy to wear down. This set notoriously cruel to opposing stall teams, usually turning the match-up in my favor.


    [​IMG]
    Seismitoad
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Nature: Sassy (+SpD, -Spe)
    Scald
    • Knock Off
    Stealth Rock
    Rest

    previously manaphy (open)
    [​IMG]
    Manaphy
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
    Nature:
    Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
    Scald
    U-turn / Tail Glow
    Rain Dance
    Rest


    This set was pulled straight from my most recent RMT, and it happens to fit amazingly on this team as a special wall, pivot and lure. As a wall, it checks dangerous special attackers like Keldeo, Tornadus-T and Gengar with its raw bulk, while being self-sufficient in terms of healing status and having semi-reliable recovery. Mono water is an excellent type for a wall, because it automatically comes with Scald plus key resistances to opposing Scalds and fire-type attacks aimed at Shedinja/Ferrothorn. As a lure, Manaphy is especially difficult to handle when paired with Dugtrio, because it lures stuff like Raikou and Chansey. These key assets are why I chose Manaphy over the plenty of other bulky water types. Even though Rotom-W can handle birds more easily, Manaphy still survives a +2 Sharp Beak BB from jolly Talonflame without investment in defense.

    Scald - The second best attack in the game.
    U-Turn - Excellent for maintaining switch initiative and dealing some chip damage. An odd choice for Manaphy, but this team isn't designed to support a Manaphy sweep regardless. I've considered replacing this with Tail Glow solely for CM MG Clefable with Flamethrower and CM Shadow Ball Reuniclus, but U-Turn seems to be more useful in general.
    Tail Glow - I usually don't slash moves in my RMT sets, but it's appropriate to make an exception in this case. Tail Glow is really only good for dealing with the aforementioned Clefable set which is VERY rarely seen on the high end of the ladder and in tournament play. It's also just a generally decent option for Manaphy and if you feel U-Turn isn't necessary for easing prediction then this option is for you.
    Rain Dance - Allows Manaphy to cure its own status, while giving it access to instant 100% recovery. It has the added benefits of increasing the power of Scald, eliminating sand/hail and lessening Ferrothorn's weakness to fire.
    Rest - Rain Dance + Rest is the best mode of recovery for Manaphy. Rest in itself is more useful than it is crippling, as long as I'm able to cure sleep with Togekiss.

    EV Spread - Max special defense with one point in defense to survive +2 Brave Bird from Talonflame, and 16 EVs in speed to beat Adamant Bisharp by one point. While taking minimal damage from Foul Play would be nice, I kept the attack IVs because Manaphy can actually deal decent damage with U-Turn to stuff like Latis and Alakazam.
    calcs (open)
    +2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 340-402 (84.3 - 99.7%)

    252 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Manaphy: 117-138 (29 - 34.2%)

    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Manaphy: 148-175 (36.7 - 43.4%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Manaphy: 125-148 (31 - 36.7%)

    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Manaphy: 200-238 (49.6 - 59%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 169-200 (41.9 - 49.6%
    Seismitoad's purpose on this team is to fill all of the remaining roles not covered by the other members. It inherited Ferrothorn's role as a hazard setter, Sableye's role as a Knock Off user (every stall/semi-stall team needs one!), and Manaphy's role as a Scald-spammer, all while patching up the team's awful weaknesses to Zapdos, Manectric and Thundurus. Its ability to absorb opposing Scalds makes it a go-to sponge for almost any water type not named Manaphy, considering 90% of Manaphy seem to have Energy Ball now.



    -------------------------
    Threats
    -------------------------

    I recently changed the team to accommodate for a lot of past threats, so the list is definitely shorter now. Feel free to point out some things I may have overlooked. Also keep in mind that every team has its weaknesses. A lot of the threats listed below are highly specific and not too common.

    [​IMG] HP Fire Manaphy
    Never carries rest, so I can wear it down by burning it and revenge killing it with Dugtrio if necessary. It usually has Energy Ball, but Seismitoad can still force its user to make predictions.
    [​IMG][​IMG] RD Manaphy + Hippo
    Assuming RD Manaphy has Energy Ball, my only real answer is Shedinja. When paired with TTar instead of Hippo, I have a chance to break the core with Dugtrio. The best way of dealing with Manaphy is to wear it down to KO range of Reversal.
    [​IMG] Stallbreaker Togekiss
    Click X
    [​IMG] Mega Heracross
    I have no reliable switch-ins for this. Mega Sableye, Togekiss and Talonflame are capable of winning 1v1, and most Heracross users don't expect Togekiss to survive a Rock Blast.
    [​IMG] Mega Pinsir
    Also no switch-ins, but it's even worse this time because Mega Pinsir can just spam Return. I can win by limiting Pinsir's switch-in opportunities.
    [​IMG] Bird Spam
    Not an instant loss, but usually too overwhelming considering I lack a flying resist.
    [​IMG] Some setup Lando-T sets
    These often rely on a misplay on my behalf to set up a free sub or SD. They need Earth Plate to have a chance of OHKOing Sableye at +2, and they need Stone Edge or Smack Down to beat Togekiss.
    [​IMG] SD Gliscor w/ Rock move
    +2 Foul Play from Sableye does pitiful damage and everything else just dies.
    [​IMG][​IMG] Multiple Stealth Rock users
    Really tough to play around, especially considering the unpredictability factor.
    [​IMG] Clefable w/ Stealth Rock
    This is one of the only relevant SR setters that can easily 1v1 Sableye without fearing Dugtrio or Togekiss. Especially difficult if it carries T-Wave (usually does), though I can gain an edge by bouncing back T-Wave with Sableye.
    [​IMG] SpD BU Talonflame
    Sableye cannot beat this 1v1 unless it lands a critical hit with Foul Play, though Talonflame needs multiple turns of setup and recovery to actually beat Sableye. Dugtrio can inflict toxic at the cost of its sash, but this particular Talonflame set often comes with cleric support.
    [​IMG]Gothitelle
    Gothitelle is obviously very manipulative against any kind of stall. The biggest problem is that Gothitelle doesn't necessarily need to trick a Scarf to Togekiss to stall it out. Unfortunately there is no way to stop goth from messing with the team besides hard switching every time you suspect Gothitelle to come in.



    Replays

    With Manaphy/Ferrothorn
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243844916
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-241844809
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243594604
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243848284
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-242503443
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-242987598
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243570336
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243084107
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-242682683
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-242511903

    With Seismitoad/Talonflame
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-257728314 (dealing with RD mana/hippo)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-259810479 (taking full advantage of the "switch-trap loop")
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-259804666 (i'm not actually weak to ttar/keldeo)
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-259525913 (why sash is necessary on shedinja)



    [​IMG]

    Have fun if you try this team out! I encourage you all to experiment with Shedinja cores to see if you can come up with something even more effective. :)
    importable (updated 7/7) (open)

    Seismitoad @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    - Scald
    - Knock Off
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rest

    Shedinja @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Wonder Guard
    EVs: 100 HP / 252 Atk / 156 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    IVs: 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Protect
    - Baton Pass

    Togekiss @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Air Slash
    - Heal Bell
    - Defog
    - Roost

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    IVs: 20 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
    - Earthquake
    - Reversal
    - Stone Edge
    - Toxic

    Sableye @ Sablenite
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Foul Play
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover

    Talonflame @ Leftovers
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Taunt
    - Roost
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  2. Alkov

    Alkov plopping
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    Hey Branflakes, really sick team you have there. Looks like you really like that U-Turn Manaphy huh. :] Anyway, I've got a few suggestions to the team that might make it a little better!
    • Firstly, I do notice that a Manaphy with Tail Glow and Fire/Water/Grass coverage can blow through your team with relative ease since you have nothing that can really deal with except maybe Togekiss to Air Slash it once before dying to the second Scald or by spamming Substitute until your Dugtrio is at 1HP and hit it once with a Reversal which does a mere 50% max. As much as I like Togekiss with it's access to Heal Bell + Defog together, I feel like it would benefit your team more by replacing it with a Chansey (yes it does suck to make it look so boring ;_;) as Chansey is able to deal with your Offensive Manaphy weakness and provide Heal Bell support while Ferrothorn is able to cope with the Tail Glow/Calm Mind variants just as well.
      calcs (open)

      252 Atk Dugtrio Reversal (200 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 158-186 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


    • Secondly, with the change of Togekiss to Chansey, you would need a better way of removing hazards so that Shedinja could shine and I would recommend a Reflect type Starmie since it is able to Rapid Spin against things like Heatran by choosing whether to Reflect Type or not against those that may or may not carry Toxic. Reflect Type also allow you to cope with those Bisharp/Scizor that tries to switch on a Starmie hoping to get off a free Knock Off/Pursuit while you Reflect Type and get to fire off a free Scald. :] However the issue here would be with the addition of Starmie means that something in the team had to be replaced and I feel that Dugtrio should be the one ;_;

    • Thirdly, I feel like Calm Mind on your Manaphy would be really useful to the team since it lacks a Stall-breaker and Manaphy in your team would really fit the bill, not only would it help to Stall-break, it can also be your check to Calm Mind Clefable since you get to Calm-Mind up along with it and fire off Scalds in the Rain, it'll also help to deal with the Gliscor/Bulk-Up Landorus-T weakness you may have.

    • As for the last suggestion would be a minor nitpick, I feel like Shedinja with Safety Goggles would be a lot more beneficial as it is able to avoid the KO from Sandstorm damage as Hippowdon is a really common Pokemon right now in the metagame
    With the changes I suggested, it'll help your team to better cope with common threats in the metagame along with some of the things mentioned in your threat list better. Hope it helped :]
    Ashaury, Branflakes325 and Ox the Fox like this.
  3. Clair

    Clair

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2014
    Messages:
    309
    Hey Branflakes! I love your team as usual, though I have a couple of possible improvements you could test. First of all:
    [​IMG]Scarf Politoed > [​IMG]Manaphy. Manaphy is a sort of soft catch-all check for a lot of problem mons, but I feel like Scarf Politoed handles most of the more problematic threats that Manaphy does, while giving you a lot of extra utility. Primarily, you counter Zard-Y, get a solid revenge killer for the faster threats which give you problems (which I think is essential on Shedinja builds), get an improved matchup against Tyranitar / Hippo, cut Ferrothorn's Fire weakness, and potentially get a decent lategame cleaner.

    The threat you didn't mention is Talonflame. It can get free switches against 4 of your 6 members, and you don't have a solid counter for it. Manaphy isn't the best option even with a physically defensive spread, but considering how susceptible it is to cumulative damage, I don't really understand how you beat it. Having Politoed wouldn't hurt, meaning Talon can't threaten to OHKO Ferrothorn, but you're still incredibly weak to it. Even physically defensive Politoed could work alright.
    One other thing to consider is [​IMG]Skarmory > [​IMG]Togekiss. Vs Garchomp, M-Sableye + Skarmory copes with SR Chomp easily (it can't have both Fire Blast and SD), and Skarm is just superior defensively, handling almost the entire physical side of your threatlist. You'll lose out on a Cleric, but that isn't too troubling, and you can always do something like a Celebi > Ferrothorn if you find you need one.

    A small thing, use Toxic + Stone Edge > HP Ice + Substitute on Dugtrio. Toxic is just better than HP Ice, especially on this team, hitting Hippowdon, bulky Waters, Lati@s, etc. Stone Edge slightly mitigates the Talonflame and Zardy weaknesses (especially if you keep Manaphy).

    Have a play round with those ideas and see if anything works. Amazing team again, congrats on peaking #1 :)
    Lαηce, Branflakes325 and SketchUp like this.
  4. Rykard

    Rykard

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Messages:
    92
    Hey! So actually getting to see a full write up on this team is really interesting and is making me wonder a couple of things about Dugtrio that could be tried out just for purses of seeing if they work. In place of Hidden Power Ice since from what I can tell, this team deals with Garchomp and Landorous pretty well anyway, I suggest running Toxic, Night Slash, or even Theif as a potential option. The main issue with Toxic is that it gives you less of a strong hit to use against Gliscor if you already have it down to like to 30% HP range, but overall, the passive damage could really rack up and give you a way to cripple something after Dugtrio has already burned it's focus sash and you trapped the steel types you needed to. Night Slash, on the other hand I think would be really useful for helping with Latios (with HP Fire) and Latias as nothing on your team other than Dugtrio outspeeds them and it typically cannot touch them. it does around 38.2 - 45.1% to Latias which can be useful in picking it off before it decides to Healing Wish to something or Defogs away your hazards if you have already done your part in keeping them off your side of the field. Furthermore, while all your walls are great at what they do, you cannot always rely on them to be at a good range of health to get the job done as the battle progresses, especially Ferrothorn since it lacks the immediate recovery. (BTW I understand that Arena Trap doesn't work on them. It is merely just a failsafe in case you managed to mess something up and need more type coverage against faster attackers). Finally, Theif can be there for the heck of it after you've burned your focus sash and can allow you to steal an item off of something before you go down if it would prove useful. Just a thought :)
    Branflakes325 likes this.
  5. Lαηce

    Lαηce

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2015
    Messages:
    5
    Dugtrio: You should replace Substitute with Stone Edge for OHKOing Zard Y and Talonflame
    Sableye: Impish > Bold cuz you're using Knock off and Fake Out
  6. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bold new taste
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    311
    A few changes were made, mostly to Dugtrio's set.
    -HP Ice -> Stone Edge
    -Sub -> Toxic

    Other changes/notes:
    -U-turn slashed with Tail Glow on Manaphy.
    -Dugtrio already serves as a decent stallbreaker being able to pick off Chansey using manaphy as a lure, so CM isn't necessary especially for a spdef set
    -FWG Manaphy is pretty difficult to handle, but it lacks recovery and can usually be worn down with a burn + dugtrio. Still a huge threat albeit a rare one, but I don't consider it enough of an incentive to run Chansey. Clefable would probably be better for this anyway, which I did use on a previous version of the team.
    -Zard Y has actually been really rare, but I will try out Politoed > Manaphy. I'll most likely use a mixed bulky set with rest. Unfortunately this really opens up a weakness to Gengar and Tornadus - two threats that are far more common than Zard Y. It also doesn't really do anything to mitigate my potential weakness to SD Talonflame.
    -I may try skarm over togekiss solely for its access to whirlwind. Otherwise Togekiss gets the job done pretty well.
    -I had Impish Sableye in the importable but I made a error when writing this up. good catch
    -Night slash/thief on Dugtrio sounds cool, but I feel like I don't have have room on the set for it. It could potentially prevent latias from using healing wish which is nice, but that's about all it does considering Togekiss walls both latis.


    Thanks guys!
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2015
  7. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bold new taste
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    311
    I ended up replacing Ferrothorn with Talonflame and Manaphy with Seismitoad after experimenting with the above suggestions as well as some of my own ideas.

    The team is definitely more effective now, and it's no longer 6-0'd by things like Zard Y and common CM Clefable sets lol
  8. bludz

    bludz a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

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    I've gone up against this team several times on the ladder although I doubt any of them was against you.

    I think those changes ^ made the team a lot better. Mega Manectric was a pretty massive threat to the build if they could get rocks up and Seismitoad stops it cold (stopped mine cold a few times ;_;).

    I notice that your team has 3 users of the move Will-O-Wisp. I know status and residual damage is important for defensive teams, but I do think that it might be interesting to try out Bulk Up on your Talonflame over Wisp. Taunt is clearly necessary but based on the build it's pretty obviously SpDef Talon and isn't going to be luring a ton of things with Wisp (not saying you don't get burns with it ofc). Plus this gives you some offensive presence and allows you to use Clefable as setup fodder.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
  9. Shruggy

    Shruggy

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2015
    Messages:
    118
    Great team there Bran :). Looks like a lot of solid work went into it and its nice to see such a creative team do so well even if it is difficult to play against.

    Quick question if i may, how does your team deal with stallbreaker Togekiss? Just taking the standard set from the smogon dex if it has twave or healbell doesnt seem like your team can do much against it if it nasty plots or twaves on your switch to talon which i think if your only real answer to Toge as it has a chance to 2hko (with +2) with just spamming air slash and you'll run out of roosts before it runs out of air slash. Cant even be revenged with Dugtrio as it is immune to arena trap and can get past the shedninja too.
  10. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325 bold new taste
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    bludz Yeah I was getting tired of losing to stuff like zapdos and mega manectric lol. Anyways you mentioned that I have three users of will-o-wisp, and I actually hadn't realized that for a while after adding Talonflame. Not to mention, I also have a scald user so it's obvious that I love spreading burns. Bulk Up on bird isn't a bad idea; however, it makes Talonflame a complete liability in the presence of mons like Lando-T, TTar, Hippowdon and Garchomp. Each of these things are extremely common, often carry stealth rock, and are almost always considered switch-ins for the common Talonflame. Most importantly, they all despise getting burned and thus rarely do they ever stay in against Sableye without a specific reason. People are going to be cautious about switching physical attackers into Talonflame, but they usually just do it anyway thinking I'm not going to use wisp on an already-burned clefable or something lol.

    That being said, my team still seems kinda overkill with the whole "burn everything" strategy. I'm wondering if Shedinja or Sableye could make effective use of another move....though I doubt it, because wisp is pretty much a staple on both of them.

    Shruggy Simple. I hit it with toxic from dugtrio, and if it reveals heal bell I click X :)

    Yeah, my team can't really handle stallbreaker Togekiss. I can temporarily shut it down with Talonflame if I make some critical plays, but I have no way of beating it down quickly or taking +2 Air Slashes with ease. I've thought of ways to patch up this weakness, but it's difficult to do so without opening up weaknesses to more common threats.


    Thanks guys!
    asdfCookie, Shruggy and bludz like this.
  11. Confide

    Confide
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    This team is literal cash lmao. But it has lots of problems with hippo + manaphy core. So I was just wondering if replacing seismitoad with empoleon is a viable option. It gets knock off, deals with manaphy, and also gives you the stealth rocks support. But then again manectric + thundy hurt you even more. Maybe you could change sableye to spdef to help deal with them? Idk man just a suggestion. Gratz on the peak(s) bro!
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2015
    skatch likes this.

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