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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
The Celebi analysis hasn't been edited since February 2nd, and is still a WIP. Any chance I could take it over?
OK. Thanks. How exactly do I go about taking over an analysis?
Also, what are your thoughts on Meowstic M? The main niche it has over Klefki is Fake Out, but I am unsure if it is still outclassed by Klefki.
Edit: I've just noticed that the old Ludicolo thread has been locked. Don't bother telling me how to take it over
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Is there an option for Flygon to sneak in? He is in most cases an inferior Garchomp, but he does have that little U-turn that differs him from Chomperoo making him a better fit on VoltTurn teams as a part of the core. If there is, I'd like to sneak an analysis of the lizardbug in.
I'd also take a shot at Archeops, unless you find his ability simply too crippling for him to deem viable.
I'd also take a shot at Archeops, unless you find his ability simply too crippling for him to deem viable.
Meowstic-M is not happening. Fake Out is not enough of a niche, and the Speed doesn't matter with crap typing, bulk, and priority on everything.
Archeops isn't either. Keeping it above 50% is too much of a hardship; there's so much priority around, and it needs SR off the field. It cannot even pivot to take anything but a Ground attack lest it fall below 50%. Too much of a liability, not enough profit to consider.
I am very skeptical on Flygon, too. However, a Roost + Defog set /may/ be viable. If you can show replays of it working, it might be worth consideration. Still heavily leaning toward outright rejecting it.
Archeops isn't either. Keeping it above 50% is too much of a hardship; there's so much priority around, and it needs SR off the field. It cannot even pivot to take anything but a Ground attack lest it fall below 50%. Too much of a liability, not enough profit to consider.
I am very skeptical on Flygon, too. However, a Roost + Defog set /may/ be viable. If you can show replays of it working, it might be worth consideration. Still heavily leaning toward outright rejecting it.
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Fair enough, I'll get some shit going then and see how it plays out. Man, I should've jumped on the analysis stuff way earlier.
Defog + Roost Flygon is heavily outclassed by Defog + Roost Gliscor, which sports actual bulk and has moves like Knock Off for futher support. Flygon doesn't seem to have anything noteworthy over Defog Gliscor: Gliscor can still take neutral Rock attacks and resists Fighting + Bug, and Flygon's very average bulk means the infamously powerful Fire-type moves will still smash it (plus it dislikes Lava Plume).
Agreed with Punchshroom, I actually tried bulky Defog Flygon a while ago and it was pretty worthless. It's nice to have a Defogger that resists all hazards, but 80/80/80 defenses aren't doing much even with max investment, and it's not threatening with uninvested 100 Atk/Spe and only 2 attacking moveslots (EQ and U-Turn). Not only is it outclassed by Gliscor, but Salamence has also been a better option despite the SR weakness, due to 95/80/80 bulk + Intimidate, Wish, and much better attacking stats. If anything it should try an offensive Defog set, but unfortunately for Flygon there are just a lot of better choices in OU.
After giving it a whirl, I have to say that it's kinda lackluster. I gave it a somewhat specified EV spread KO Bisharp after one turn of LO recoil as well as enough speed to outpace Timid tran, with the remaining evs in bulk, so it had a somewhat offensive pivot defogging, but eh. I'll just wait for UU to be released fo reals,
I noticed that Tornadus-I isn't on the reservation list. While it is generally inferior to Tornadus-T, it does have a bit of a niche over Tornadus-T in Prankster Tailwind/Taunt and better offenses overall. Any thoughts?
(also, if it is deemed viable, I might as well reserve it now so no one else takes it) Nevermind, I'm not doing it. Anyone else is free to take it.
(
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I know I'm pushing it a bit with checking yet another pokemon to attempt to reserve with one going on in OU at the moment, but could I maybe do Hitmontop? or has its viability already been debated?
Edit: Also, I started Ludicolo on QC a few days ago. Could you move it to "In Progress" to prevent any confusion?
Edit: Also, I started Ludicolo on QC a few days ago. Could you move it to "In Progress" to prevent any confusion?
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I personally think Vivillon deserves an analysis. It gets Compoundeyes, boosting the accuracy of key moves like Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, AND EVEN HURRICANE to 91+ accuracy. Base 90 Speed isn't that bad, as it ties with Lucario and Roserade. Base 90 Special Attack isn't too shabby either when backed up a 91% accurate Hurricane and possibly a Quiver Dance boost or two. It could have two sets: a lead set with Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Hurricane, and Bug Buzz, and a Quiver Dance set with Bug Buzz, Hurricane, Sleep Powder, and of course, Quiver Dance. On the Quiver Dance set you could also replace Bug Buzz with a Hidden Power of your choice.
I'm particularly interested in the lead set, as it could be sent out before Stealth Rock is laid down, then go for a nearly perfectly accurate Sleep Powder, crippling a Pokemon. Then, it could either Stun Spore the predicted switch, crippling another Pokemon, or it could go for Bug Buzz or that beastly Hurricane and do a lot of damage.
I would be happy to supply replays and calcs.
If you decide Vivillon deserves an analysis, I would like to reserve it.
I'm particularly interested in the lead set, as it could be sent out before Stealth Rock is laid down, then go for a nearly perfectly accurate Sleep Powder, crippling a Pokemon. Then, it could either Stun Spore the predicted switch, crippling another Pokemon, or it could go for Bug Buzz or that beastly Hurricane and do a lot of damage.
I would be happy to supply replays and calcs.
If you decide Vivillon deserves an analysis, I would like to reserve it.
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My question is, does it have something to prevent it from being outclassed by Tinted Lens Venomoth? Venomoth has a much better typing, the ability to get perfect coverage with just Bug Buzz + Psychic, and Baton Pass, a lot of great qualities. The only thing I see Vivillon offering over Venomoth is a more accurate Sleep Powder/Stun Spore, but I feel like that's not the main priority of a Quiver Dance user, nor is it really enough to make it better than Venomoth.
Woah nelly, woah. Perfect coverage with Bug Buzz and Psychic? Steel types exist you know. Well anyway, Vivillon, as stated in your post, has more accurate status/powder moves. It also gets access to Hurricane, the most powerful special Flying type move at 110 Base Power, and with Compoundeyes, Hurricane becomes 91% accurate. And let's not forget the 30% chance to confuse the target, if it even lives the move. It doesn't get Baton Pass, but it doesn't need it anyway because its role is as a lead and a Quiver Dance sweeper, and Vivillon generally outclasses Venomoth in both of those roles.
EDIT: Sorry about the beginning, forgot about Tinted Lens
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Two words: Tinted Lens.
As for Vivillon, I've never tried it out myself, but 80/50/50 defenses, a bad defensive typing, and two poorly synergetic STABs with a severe lack of coverage don't seem to get it very far at all.
No offense, but 70/60/75 defenses aren't much better.
I would be happy to supply replays to prove that Vivillon is not "utter shit."
I have found that Vivillon works, and it cant be outclassed by something that plays a completely different role competitively (Venomoth is a baton passer, wheras Vivillon is a setup sweeper). If you had to compare it to something, it would be Butterfree who is actually outclassed by Vivillon. If you were to say that it was outclassed, I'd say that it would probably be by Lilligant which doesn't really outclass it as, while it has one more base speed, it is OHKOd by Vivillon's Hurricane (252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 354-416 (125.9 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO), and can't OHKO with HP Fire (252+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vivillon: 220-260 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), not to mention Vivillon will always run Focus Sash to prevent OHKOs.
If this doesn't persuade you, I don't know what will.
If this doesn't persuade you, I don't know what will.
You can't really say that one pokemon outclasses another in that role just because it beats said pokemon 1v1. Otherwise C&C would be full of things like "Infernape beats Excadrill 1v1 so it must outclass Excadrill as a Swords Dance user" which of course is not true as the Pokemon are incomparable in that sense. Vivillon has relatively low Speed in the OU tier, is 4x weak to Stealth Rock thanks to a terrible typing, and has abysmal bulk. It really has no business in OU at all.
Replays of Vivillon, with descriptions.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92240642
This one is amazing. Vivillon puts a Pokemon to sleep, takes down another, and severely weakens the final one.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92246609
Not much, but it shows Vivillon decimating its fellow butterfly. #Owned.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92247137
Easily takes down 2 Pokémon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92250623
Does 2/3 to Forretress, does a decent 1/3 to SpD Ninetales, and brings a Pokemon down to its Sash.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92540817
Takes down a Pokemon and does 97% to Sylveon using Sleep and confusion via Hurricane.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92857351
Easily takes down 2 Pokémon and would've taken down Talonflame but the guy forfeited.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92864793
Does 60% to and puts Donphan to sleep, then takes down Skarmory.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92992205
This one is pure ridiculous. I know the opponent wasn't the very best like no one ever was, but still. Jeez, Vivillon. Dishin' out the pain.
These replays utilize Vivillon as an attacking lead with Sleep Powder, Hurricane, Bug Buzz, and Stun Spore/Quiver Dance. It is holding the Focus Sash on all of them except for the first replay. In those replays, I could surprisingly outspeed many common Pokemon and put them to sleep, then proceed to batter them with attacks. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE VIVILLON JUST BECAUSE IT IS A BUTTERFLY. Normal butterflies can't cause hurricanes. Vivillon can, because Vivillon is the best of the butterflies when it comes to Pokemon.
Also, about the weakness to Stealth Rock, Vivillon is a lead Pokemon, and therefore its SR weakness doesn't really matter.
You guys don't realize how game-changing it is that Vivillon gets Hurricane. You essentially have a 110 STAB attack with a decent 91% accuracy and a 30% chance to induce confusion. That's the same chance Scald has to burn you. It does buttloads of damage to everything that doesn't resist it. If Vivillon didn't get Hurricane, I would not have suggested that Vivillon get an analysis. But it gets it, so don't be saying it's outclassed by Butterfree or Venomoth; if anything, it's the other way around.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92240642
This one is amazing. Vivillon puts a Pokemon to sleep, takes down another, and severely weakens the final one.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92246609
Not much, but it shows Vivillon decimating its fellow butterfly. #Owned.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92247137
Easily takes down 2 Pokémon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92250623
Does 2/3 to Forretress, does a decent 1/3 to SpD Ninetales, and brings a Pokemon down to its Sash.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92540817
Takes down a Pokemon and does 97% to Sylveon using Sleep and confusion via Hurricane.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92857351
Easily takes down 2 Pokémon and would've taken down Talonflame but the guy forfeited.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92864793
Does 60% to and puts Donphan to sleep, then takes down Skarmory.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92992205
This one is pure ridiculous. I know the opponent wasn't the very best like no one ever was, but still. Jeez, Vivillon. Dishin' out the pain.
These replays utilize Vivillon as an attacking lead with Sleep Powder, Hurricane, Bug Buzz, and Stun Spore/Quiver Dance. It is holding the Focus Sash on all of them except for the first replay. In those replays, I could surprisingly outspeed many common Pokemon and put them to sleep, then proceed to batter them with attacks. DON'T UNDERESTIMATE VIVILLON JUST BECAUSE IT IS A BUTTERFLY. Normal butterflies can't cause hurricanes. Vivillon can, because Vivillon is the best of the butterflies when it comes to Pokemon.
Also, about the weakness to Stealth Rock, Vivillon is a lead Pokemon, and therefore its SR weakness doesn't really matter.
You guys don't realize how game-changing it is that Vivillon gets Hurricane. You essentially have a 110 STAB attack with a decent 91% accuracy and a 30% chance to induce confusion. That's the same chance Scald has to burn you. It does buttloads of damage to everything that doesn't resist it. If Vivillon didn't get Hurricane, I would not have suggested that Vivillon get an analysis. But it gets it, so don't be saying it's outclassed by Butterfree or Venomoth; if anything, it's the other way around.
