Sorry, I misspoke, and if a Pokemon does Knock off, wouldn't that mean that the Flame Orb wouldn't burn Latias anymore?
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XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
Yeah true, but that doesn't mean it can't draco or healing wish anymore.
When using it I even used it as a Status Absorber (After getting knocked off or before flame orb activated) and then psycho shifted the Toxic/Paralysis to another pokemon.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Latias: 374-439 (123.8 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Knock Off from Bisharp OHKOes lol, so it can't healing wish. Plus a Draco wouldn't do THAT MUCh to a Bisharp.
What's the point if you don't burn Bisharp? Bisharp switches on you so Flame Orb activates, I never said you switch on Bisharp
And I showed my calcs. Also you are not supposed to Draco Bisharp, you Draco things like Mega Char X and Talonflame, things you can burn or aren't physical, it's just there to not be taunt fodder / fire- types walk over it. Mainly it can support a pokemon with Heal Wish and switch him in on a Burned Bisharp, for example you can switch in your Mega Char X on a Burned Bisharp and the minimum number of DDs you are setting up is 1. So it's almost a guaranteed 1+ set up for the mon (usually it's more)
let's stop spamming this thread and wait for QC to approve or not
Flame Orb Latias sounds like a gimmick. At best it could warrant a mention in the OO section of the current analysis, i don't think it's worthy of a dedicated set
trick + flame orb (similar enough concept) was cute last gen, but overall i think the residual damage is too detrimental to latias's success especially as it is often relied on check so many things for its team, like keld char y lando thundy (if it's a bit invested in bulk). maybe in oo, but definitely not as a set.
tagging Dice in case he's opposed but i'd like a scarf keldeo set and mg spdef clefable (252/104+) set written up. scarf keldeo is a decent check to different dders, can get surprise kills on thundurus and greninja trying to rk after a sac or w.e because people will barely scout the set anymore, outspeeds every other scarfer, and with timid (though modest is good too) even outspeeds kabutops in rain. spdef fable is one of the major greninja checks for bulky offense/balanced teams, those evs i said survive the 2hko from hydro. non-mg i don't feel is reliable enough/needs more investment to be safe against greninja, and with this investment still only has a small chance to be 2hkoed by latios. anyways yeah good sets espec the latter (i just mean like a sr/utility type of set).
tagging Dice in case he's opposed but i'd like a scarf keldeo set and mg spdef clefable (252/104+) set written up. scarf keldeo is a decent check to different dders, can get surprise kills on thundurus and greninja trying to rk after a sac or w.e because people will barely scout the set anymore, outspeeds every other scarfer, and with timid (though modest is good too) even outspeeds kabutops in rain. spdef fable is one of the major greninja checks for bulky offense/balanced teams, those evs i said survive the 2hko from hydro. non-mg i don't feel is reliable enough/needs more investment to be safe against greninja, and with this investment still only has a small chance to be 2hkoed by latios. anyways yeah good sets espec the latter (i just mean like a sr/utility type of set).
Scarf Keldeo was almost common in the wcop playoffs so I think it's certainly worthy of a set. I'd like to write it assuming it gets the nod
I would like to write something too can I write the mg spd clefable if it gets approved?
Gorebyss is done
Victini (Stallbreaker) is done.
I want to ask a question for QC
Do Shaymin and Cloyster deserve an analysis?
I'm not one of the noobs who spam and love cloyster, but since Aegislash is banned, and since genies are as popular as ever, and with most Mega Vensuar turning into a more bulky offensive mon, wouldn't it be viable? I'm talking about LO/Sash Shell Smash / Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Explosion or Ice Shard Cloyster, since it lures in Keldeo, Slowbro, and Azumarill it can explode on their faces, but it can also take out priority users such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Thundurus at +2 (w/ Ice shard). It's not x10 viable, but it deserves an analysis? It can really take of stall and kaboom on last turn of toxic, your call though qc.
As for Shaymin, even though it somewhat handled Aegislash, it still struggled against it, but now Shaymin is somewhat viable with the recent metagame shifts, it can check both genies, greninja without rocks, and pretty much take out at least half of Rain & Sand teams, oh I'm taking about the bulky attacker 252 HP / 252+ Modest. It has other uses such as SubSeed (101 Subs) with HP ice/Earth power and Seed Flare to screw up stall and HO to an extent. I didn't see it on the rejected list so I thought it may warrant an analysis?
Do Shaymin and Cloyster deserve an analysis?
I'm not one of the noobs who spam and love cloyster, but since Aegislash is banned, and since genies are as popular as ever, and with most Mega Vensuar turning into a more bulky offensive mon, wouldn't it be viable? I'm talking about LO/Sash Shell Smash / Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Explosion or Ice Shard Cloyster, since it lures in Keldeo, Slowbro, and Azumarill it can explode on their faces, but it can also take out priority users such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Thundurus at +2 (w/ Ice shard). It's not x10 viable, but it deserves an analysis? It can really take of stall and kaboom on last turn of toxic, your call though qc.
As for Shaymin, even though it somewhat handled Aegislash, it still struggled against it, but now Shaymin is somewhat viable with the recent metagame shifts, it can check both genies, greninja without rocks, and pretty much take out at least half of Rain & Sand teams, oh I'm taking about the bulky attacker 252 HP / 252+ Modest. It has other uses such as SubSeed (101 Subs) with HP ice/Earth power and Seed Flare to screw up stall and HO to an extent. I didn't see it on the rejected list so I thought it may warrant an analysis?
Both Shaymin + Cloyster were rejected, for reference.
Cloyster still struggles a lot in OU, with its laughable special bulk, and only decent physical bulk, especially after a Shell Smash. It is powerful after a smash, but very weak without it. Same thing goes for its speed. It also has 4MSS, in that it has to choose between secondary Water STAB and priority, both of which are important. Explosion is an interesting "new" move you've mentioned, but I'm not too sure it's worth it. Why Shell Smash just to die if one of your checks is still alive? I guess it can lure things like Keldeo to give a Bisharp teammate an easier time sweeping, but Cloyster should usually be used as a late game sweeper, not something to support a sweeper. You mention it beats stall, but it can't beat Quagsire or Clefable. It has a decent matchup against Skarmory, but Skarmory usually comes out on top thanks to Whirlwind and Counter. It of course beats Chansey 1v1, but risks Toxic and Thunder Wave. It has a good matchup v. bulky Grounds and bulky Fires if running Water STAB, but then loses priority, which lets it beat the genies. It definitely has benefitted from the removal of Aegislash, but I'm not sure if it needs an analysis. I'd sooner use it than some things with analyses, but that's obviously subjective.
I was opposed to the Shaymin rejection, but after looking at it, it still doesn't have a true niche. Seed Flare is a fantastic move; i'll give you that. But it isn't something I'd seek to use, when Venusaur and Celebi exist. Seed Flare is again, really cool, as it allows it to break through special walls. It hasn't been explored a lot, since the Aegi ban of course. I personally think we need more time before deciding on things, since we don't know everything about the metagame. But of course QC can disagree with everything I said :) I'd also like to throw out the names Doublade, Bronzong, and Jirachi, who are all also theoretically better, since they beat Gardevoir and hated Aegislash.
I read the list of rejected pokemons like 5 times and Control + F Cloyster and Shaymin showed nothing (I had spoiler open if you were wondering). As for the SpD bulk, while that is true, you have to play around it, Talonflame and Bisharp both have very poor SpD (I know Cloyster is much worse) but you can still work around it. I'm not telling you to set up on a Special pokemon but obviously you will only have to set up on physical pokemons / defensive pokemons.
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 195-235 (49.4 - 59.6%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 215-255 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sorry I should have specified, LO set bearks stall. Also Explosion is supposed to be an added benefit for Cloyster, as Cloyster always suffered from the mere existence of a Bulky water on the opposing team, as a good player will always keep them vs. Cloyster, it's not supposed to support a sweeper, but yeah you could do that too. Not all teams have Keldeo or Slowbro, but when they do, Cloyster is immediately a dead weight, but exploding means you are not a dead weight anymore. Cloyster doesn't have a big 4MSS, it's either Ice Shard or Explosion, Water STAB isn't even useful on Cloyster. Oh and btw LO Cloyster OHKOs Azumarill with Rock Blast after rocks at +2.
So here's what I'm trying to say: Ice shard is a great move on Cloyster, it lets it greatly dent if not do massive amount of damage vs. HO. However, Explosion is also a great move on it even though it loses to Talonflame after boosting and is crippled by Thundurus's T-wave if you don't have Ice Shard. Usually cloyster is a completely dead weight as soon as you see a bulky water mon on the opposing team, and it's basically as good as 5-6 since you won't do anything significant to the bulky water (usually can heal) and you repeatedly take rocks/LO damage, but at least with Explosion you are making it 5-5 so Cloyster = not dead weight anymore
As for Shaymin, I want to say that Celebi doesn't really exist, it only exists rarely in tours but super rare on the ladder. As for Mega Venusaur
252+ SpA Expert Belt Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 185-218 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Shaymin Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Finally, if Aegislash is banned, not a ton of pokemons suddenly be viable, Shaymin and Cloyster IMO were not viable because of Aegislash and the previous metagame, but with metagame shifting and Aegislash banned, they become IMO viable enough to warrant an Analysis. But that's for QC to decide.
As for your suggestions, Bronzong and Doublade will never become viable in OU IMO, they are completely dead weight on the team and super weak to knock off and even if that didn't exist it would be unviable. As for Jirachi, it didn't only suffer from Aegislash, it suffered from a lot of things such as Mega Char X, Bisharp, lando, etc. Aegislash ban doesn't mean it's good enough for OU IMO
EDIT: If QC needs evidence and replays I can provide with some as I have a good amount of free time this week.
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ya min was rejected before. i mean it's fine but there's no reason at all to use it over 3 atks celebi which has the same coverage -seed flare +stab on psychic, and can handle a lot more relevant mons like keldeo and landorus unkike min.
cloy just feels like a really meh sweeper. it's checked by so many common things, including the dominant offensive waters and thundy twave, and it doesn't really check anything itself. just seems like a do-nothing sweeper that can't really sweep anyways.
cloy just feels like a really meh sweeper. it's checked by so many common things, including the dominant offensive waters and thundy twave, and it doesn't really check anything itself. just seems like a do-nothing sweeper that can't really sweep anyways.
Hi, was wondering if I may reserve Milotic?
Milotic has already been rejected, so you'd really have to say why this time it would be approved. Some Pokemon that were unviable in an Aegi metagame are better now, but Milotic wasn't that affected by Aegi.
Ok, maybe just a brief rundown.
Well first up I would advocate for the classic physically defensive Milotic. It is still good to use in the current OU metagame:
Milotic @ Leftovers (Physical Wall)
Ability: Competitive/ Marvel Scale
EVs: 252HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp. Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam/ Toxic
- Haze/ Dragon Tail
- Recover
This is the best EV spread that Milotic should run in the OU metagame. This spread guarantees Milotic's survival against many of OU's hard-hitters and scald's burn rate helps patches up Milotic's weaker defence stat. Such a Milotic doesn't get 1 or 2HKO that easily at all by most pokemon and can proceed to toxic stall them all to death. Haze or dragon tail would be complementary to toxic as it helps prevent opposing set-ups or simply helps in phazing. However, it is noted that the usefulness of dragon tail is now curtailed due to the new fairy typing.
Competitive is also a viable ability on a defensively-spread Milotic. Most people think that Milotic runs Marvel Scale but many would be surprised by a Competitively-boosted Milotic. A +2 Milotic even with only 4 Sp. Atk EVs also deals considerable damage although it is clear that it won't be sweeping anytime soon. However, the point is to exert greater offensive pressure on the opponent whilst retaining its bulkiness. My experience is that an offensive EV spread is seldom worth it because Milotic gets blocked regardless of whether it gets full special attack investment or not; however, a defensive spread is superior because it almost always guarantees that Milotic hangs around for much longer and it's not hard to get a Competitive boost given how prevalent defog is and the occasional intimidates from gyarados or mawile. For the former, a boosted scald coupled with a burn (I know it's being a little optimistic) renders gyarados useless.
Milotic @ Leftovers (Rest Talk set)
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252HP/ 252 Def/ 4 Sp. Def
- Scald
- Dragon Tail/ Recover/ Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
The classic rest-talk Milotic. This EV spread guarantees that Milotic has up to 400+ physical defence. Alternatively, more may be invested into special defence such that it would be a better mixed wall. I have not tested rest talk Milotic extensively but I believe it would still work well especially with the sleep mechanics having been restored. The huge downside is the neutering of dragon tail so I do recognise that it's harder for the rest talk set to work these days.
Milotic @ Leftovers (Dedicated special wall)
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP/ 88 Def/ 168 Sp Def OR 252 HP/ 252 Sp Def/ 4 Def
- Scald
- Recover
- Mirror Coat
- Ice Beam/Toxic
The former EV Spread ensures that Milotic has 216 defence which makes it slightly more durable against physical onslaughts whilst still hitting 360 sp def which is enough to tank most special hits coupled with 394 HP. However for maximum utility and in the case where you already have a dedicated physical wall then feel free to run maximum special defense. This ensures that Milotic is able to reflect back appropriate amounts of damage via mirror coat whilst allowing it to simply recover thereafter and prevent being 2HKO by exceptionally strong attackers. In any case, this set requires one to predict well and it is not entirely impossible to pull off.
Conclusion
I would really say that the first and last sets are the most viable. The rest talk set may not be that great anymore because of fairy types and the fact that Milotic only got dragon tail as a phazing move. Truth be told, Milotic is predictable as its repertoire of moves hasn't changed much over the years. But we ought to recognise the fact that Milotic is indeed resilient in that despite the minimal changes or additions to its movepool, it is not entirely obsolete and that if played right, its defensive sets can still shine. A defensive spread allows Milotic to hang around much longer and the move recover helps it retain its versatility as a turn is all that is needed for Milotic to come out afresh and ready to wall once more.
Heal bell support is appreciated to rid Milotic of nasty toxic status but it isn't mandatory of course. Milotic is usually a secondary check to many pokemon but it can serve as a dedicated counter to pokemon like heatran, infernape, entei, latios, latias, mamoswine and a slew of other ground, rock, water types etc. With marvel scale up or a lucky scald burn, fighting behemoths such as terrakion can also be taken down by Milotic. Therefore when it comes to team building, this is something the trainer must take into consideration.
I would also advocate for Competitive to be used on a defensive Milotic because that is how it can truly shine. High survivability thanks to great defenses and recover helps Milotic to inflict greater damage for a longer period of time as compared to being OHKO easily previously due to the offensive EV spread. And let's get real - Milotic isn't outspeeding anything much anytime soon with a 287 max speed with a timid nature. I would rather invest in its defenses instead.
PS: Oh and I thought it would be interesting to mention that Milotic was not at all afraid of Aegislash in the past especially with scald burning, recover and particularly so if you run haze. I played Milotic this way and it helped handle most Aegislash. Well, except the toxic stalling Aegi which is a bitch and that's why Milotic back then was run alongside earthquake Mega Venusaur which could take any of Aegi's nonsense. Further, the two form a formidable core with excellent syngery. Just wanted to point this out.
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The biggest issue with Milotic is that it is outclassed as a bulky Water-type by things like Vaporeon, Gyarados, Slowbro and Quagsire, among others, due to their niches over Milotic (Vaporeon can wish pass; Gyarados has large amounts of offensive presence, Intimidate and two helpful secondary types (depending on forme); Slowbro shares access to reliable recovery, has secondary typing, has decent offensive presence, and has Regenerator; Quagsire has great defensive typing, shares access to reliable recovery and has access to Unaware). Marvel Scale doesn't really help it out as it doesn't enjoy absorbing status like Toxic and Burn anyway. Sure it helps it burn through sleep turns... until you reallize that three of the four common (or in the case of Amoonguss, usable) Pokémon which utilize sleep-inducing moves actually beat Milotic one-on-one, meaning that it isn't too much of a saving grace for it. Maybe live through an untimely freeze... hang on: Scald thaws you out anyway. I see little reason why one would use Milotic for their bulky Water-type.
As a user of competitive, it needs the speed more than you would think as it struggles to effectively sweep without it - take a look at SD Aegislash: it ran max speed Adamant dispite its horrible speed stat - and its sweeping potential is limited a switch in on a well-predicted Defog (or coming in on sticky web, but that cripples its sweeping capabilities itself). It works well on Sticky Web teams... oh, wait: it needs to absorb Defog to gain sweeping capability, removing Sticky Web from the field in the process. It is far too weak without a boost, meaning that it is usually dead weight against teams which lack a Defog, which means that it is outclassed in a defog-blocking role by Bisharp. Here is the reasoning for offensive's rejection from the thread:
As a user of competitive, it needs the speed more than you would think as it struggles to effectively sweep without it - take a look at SD Aegislash: it ran max speed Adamant dispite its horrible speed stat - and its sweeping potential is limited a switch in on a well-predicted Defog (or coming in on sticky web, but that cripples its sweeping capabilities itself). It works well on Sticky Web teams... oh, wait: it needs to absorb Defog to gain sweeping capability, removing Sticky Web from the field in the process. It is far too weak without a boost, meaning that it is usually dead weight against teams which lack a Defog, which means that it is outclassed in a defog-blocking role by Bisharp. Here is the reasoning for offensive's rejection from the thread:
Jukakin said:
Secondary typing isn't always a boon - it may well be a bane as well as it exposes you to a greater number of weaknesses or makes you ultra weak against a particular typing. I don't deny that competition for water types is very stiff these days and the reasons you've cited are valid. However, it does not mean that Milotic is useless - it is still another option for OU players no matter how little people may choose it.
And again, that is because you think of using Competitive to sweep. My point simply, is to use Competitive as a way to exert greater pressure. I never quite believe that Milotic would be able to sweep anytime soon given how stingy gamefreak had been with it by not giving Milotic any ways to stat boost (which is a pity). Without the investment in bulk, I understand that Milotic will hardly survive anything physical. I just think a different thinking and strategy ought to be adopted for Competitive Milotic.
I am very skeptical about Milotic getting an analysis. skyhigh256 do you have any quality OU replays of Milotic being useful? If you do, Milotic would have a better chance of getting an analysis.
I'll reserve Keldeo (Endeavor)