Minor nitpick, you mean Encore + Safeguard, not Encore + Taunt, Wobb does not learn Taunt.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yea, I'm an idiot. Edited.
Guess thats our main problem. You make it sound like its impossible for Pinsir to come in at all, which in my experience just isnt true at all. Until you evolve you can even switch him into rocks without much trouble and after evolving you only have to get rid of those rocks which isnt that difficult most of the time. Unless the opponent has like 3 or 4 counters/checks to Pinsir on his team i never had trouble getting him to work and he almost always pulls his weight, often enough he wins lost games on his own. There are more than enough fighting/ground/grass attacks and knock offs alongside bulky/defensive mons around where you can get him in and you have him paired with Zone anyway who can act as a pivot switch to get him in. And if neither works for some reason you can still bring him in after something fainted which happens anyway. No matter how you do it, unless Skarm/Zapdos are on the opponents team he will be hardpressed to handle him every time he gets in because he is so hard do switch into.
Anyway i would be fine with him moving up to S since he is one of the most threatening mons in the tier, even though he needs support. Dont realy care if he stays in A+ though.
Just adding to this, but Wobb's immense HP allows you to tailor it's (albeit poor) defenses to exactly what you want it to trap. Plus it can avoid 2HKOs with Sitrus Berry which is REALLY convenient. Its Psychic typing is pretty solid right now, (which is why Slowbro, Jirachi, Celebi, Mew, Victini, and Cress are on the rise) and it can create crazy amounts of momentum, unlike Goth who is setup fodder if it's choice locked into a move after getting a kill. Even if it's low after killing something with Mirror Coat/Counter, it still discourages setup since it has Encore.
Unlike Goth or Dugtrio, it isn't deadweight when your opponent doesn't have something you initially wanted to trap. Plus it's not easy to predict when it will come in since, unlike Goth, Mag, or Dugtrio, it's not limited to what it can trap. You know your opponent will double from Diggersby to Magnezone predicting Skarm, but Wobb being a wild card makes it a really good trapper since it's not easy to guess when it will be switch in, especially since it isn't easily 2HKO'd by neutral hits, although the power creep makes it less effective compared to how it was in previous gens.
I think Wobb should be at least B-. It's a versatile trapper, despite its small movepool, that can work nicely against any playstyle.
I wanted to take baby steps first and get it to C+ before I nominated Wobb to B-, but if everybody agrees it should go to B- anyways, then I will back B- as well.
Fads come and go so baby steps are the best steps.
Wobb is definitely an awesome poke with a solid niche but I feel like trapping pokes are being overhyped at the moment so I don't think it's best to raise them too high.
But still Wobbuffet should definitely rise to C+ and Magnezone to A.
Wobb is definitely an awesome poke with a solid niche but I feel like trapping pokes are being overhyped at the moment so I don't think it's best to raise them too high.
But still Wobbuffet should definitely rise to C+ and Magnezone to A.
Wouldn't consider taking out Pokemon that would otherwise trouble your team as "overhyped".
This is true, but at the pace of the meta I personally don't think Mag is good enough to be an A mon. Shed shell skarm is becoming a pretty used set right now, which pretty much neuters mag as they can switch into a (possible) ground mon to gain a ton of momentum. Mag is pretty good in the meta right now, but i wouldn't consider it at A standard.
Personally, I think the reason mag is so high is that the scarf variant can reach a pretty respectable speed, checking bird spam and outspending mons like keldeo and thundy, and a steel type is always nice to have.
Holy shit the meta has changed so much in 4 months. Time to get back into the groove of things! Just wanted to say thanks to alexwolf, Nog, and CBB, TRC, and ben gay for keeping this thread alive in my absence. I got a lot to learn before I can even think about contributing to this thread again lol. I missed you guys. It's great to be back!
Welcome back Gary :D
Knock Off on Pinsir has just become a thing, just to let you know, just so Mag can trap Skarmory without having to worry about Shed Shell.
After using it in a lot of my teams, I would like to nominate Scizor for B+ rank, particularly the CB scizor set. It has huge attack, powerful priority which is boosted by its ability, and an admirable amount of bulk. It can even deal with Mag or Heatran switch ins with a well placed superpower. Scizor has great utility as a defogger, and can be used on many teams. It can be used as a nice, bulky pivot, yet can also run Pursuit and knock off. Overall, this should lead for it to be moved up to B+.
You can't just name a Pokemon's quailities and expect it to go up. You need to compare it to the Pokemon in its current rank and the rank you are proposing.
On that note, I have a bit of an odd nomination. Shiftry for D.
While I am still experimenting a bit with the optimal EVs, I think Shiftry is viable in this meta on Charizard Y teams that have trouble with Pokemon such as Azumarill and Tyranitar. To start off, here are the Pokemon in ranks S-B+ that Shiftry can easily revenge kill with a mixed set (as in only set you should be using)
Sorry, sprites are dumb, still it proves the point.
Obviously listing a ton of Pokemon we all know it beats is pretty useless, But I think that a Clorophyll sweeper not weak to Talonflame or most other revenge killers that can also handle some of the Pokemon most problemstic to Charizard Y and sun in general is definitely worth acknowledging, even if it isn't anywhere near perfect.
While I haven't found the perfect EVs, the basic set is Life Orb 4 attacks, being Low Kick, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Solarbeam, and must be paired with Charizard Y. Knock Off is always superior to Dark Pulse as most of its targets (like the Latis) have higher special defenses. Also it's Knock Off.
Now, Shiftry does have huge some flaws, those being turning into garbage outisde sun, and trouble breaking through bulkier walls, as well as competiton with other, though mostly niche as well, sun wallbreakers. It also has problems breaking through common Pokemon like Mega Heracross. However, I believe Shiftrys offensive typing and good mixed attacking stats, as well as a way to stop certain revenge killers on Charizard Y teams should grant it a spot on the list, and if people agree, possibly an analysis.
If this post gets any support/replies/criticism/anything, I'll be glad to work on the EVs and possibly make a new team with Shiftry to help prove the point, if anyone wants that.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but Terrakion should move down. It's still very good, but it doesn't seem A+ rank anymore. It's still got two great STABs, a decent lead set and the SubSD set, but the other non-Megas in A+ seem to have a bigger impact on the meta and more usability. Personally I think Terra is more on the level of Dragonite, Bisharp, Mamo, Gengar and Mew than it is Greninja, Talonflame, Clefable, Heatran and the Lati@s twins. I'd like to hear some more thoughts, but Terrakion to A might be a good idea.
On a more serious note maybe some replays would help cause I haven't seen this thing once in OU even though it sounded alright on paper considering what it can do offensively. For now still against it.
Hi I have no comment on Shiftry itself (it looks pretty bad to me though) but I would like to say that Shiftry learns Sucker Punch, and Shiftry is faster than Talonflame in sun, so its Sucker Punch will hit before Brave Bird does. That is all. I will try and edit in something relevant here later if I can, but just wanted to get that across.
I think his point was that in the sun and with Chlorophyll and Sucker Punch that would beat out priority Brave Bird.
On a more serious note maybe some replays would help cause I haven't seen this thing once in OU even though it sounded alright on paper considering what it can do offensively. For now still against it.
Greninja: A+ -> S
I'm aware this will be a controversial nomination but I firmly believe Greninja is a threat of the highest level and deserves the highest rank on this list.
No other Pokemon poses a threat to both offensive and defensive teams the way Greninja does. Its depth of coverage (and the power each move has) combined with Hydro Pump's "just enough" power makes it incredibly hard for defensive teams to switch into. About the only thing that can is Chansey, and not all teams can run it. Mixed Defenses Clefable can take a couple of Hydros, but it has to be very careful and the mere presence of Greninja on the opponent's team means it's forced into its recover very often to avoid being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Other checks such as Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur simply get owned by the appropriate coverage move, which by the way you can almost never tell until it has used it. About offensive teams, Greninja is fast enough to outspeed every non scarfed Pokemon except for a couple of Megas which lets it clean a lot of teams extremely easily once a few things have been weakened. Sets such as AV Azumarill can slow it down for a while but it's never a full stop to Grass move Greninja. Don't forget that Greninja resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch, meaning that not all priority can take it down easily. Scarfers may revenge kill it, but they absolutely cannot switch in, so what's stopping Greninja from simply switching out and coming back later to kill more stuff?
As I said before, Chansey is able to stop Greninja pretty easily. However, one move changes everything: Spikes. Spikes Greninja takes full advantage of Chansey, because if it switches in (and trust me, it will), it guarantees at least two layers for the Greninja user, three if Chansey decides to stay in. It can't even Thunder Wave it because of the Ground typing. You could switch to a Defogger, but Greninja actually owns every single one of them. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and the Lati twins are going to get mauled by STAB Ice Beam, while Skarmory and the odd Scizor are destroyed by Hidden Power Fire. The fact that Greninja is able to take such advantage of its one true counter is incredible and makes it infinitely more viable.
Greninja is absolutely metagame defining, consistent and threatening to all playstyles, which in my book fits the S rank perfectly.
I'm aware this will be a controversial nomination but I firmly believe Greninja is a threat of the highest level and deserves the highest rank on this list.
No other Pokemon poses a threat to both offensive and defensive teams the way Greninja does. Its depth of coverage (and the power each move has) combined with Hydro Pump's "just enough" power makes it incredibly hard for defensive teams to switch into. About the only thing that can is Chansey, and not all teams can run it. Mixed Defenses Clefable can take a couple of Hydros, but it has to be very careful and the mere presence of Greninja on the opponent's team means it's forced into its recover very often to avoid being 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Other checks such as Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur simply get owned by the appropriate coverage move, which by the way you can almost never tell until it has used it. About offensive teams, Greninja is fast enough to outspeed every non scarfed Pokemon except for a couple of Megas which lets it clean a lot of teams extremely easily once a few things have been weakened. Sets such as AV Azumarill can slow it down for a while but it's never a full stop to Grass move Greninja. Don't forget that Greninja resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch, meaning that not all priority can take it down easily. Scarfers may revenge kill it, but they absolutely cannot switch in, so what's stopping Greninja from simply switching out and coming back later to kill more stuff?
As I said before, Chansey is able to stop Greninja pretty easily. However, one move changes everything: Spikes. Spikes Greninja takes full advantage of Chansey, because if it switches in (and trust me, it will), it guarantees at least two layers for the Greninja user, three if Chansey decides to stay in. It can't even Thunder Wave it because of the Ground typing. You could switch to a Defogger, but Greninja actually owns every single one of them. Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and the Lati twins are going to get mauled by STAB Ice Beam, while Skarmory and the odd Scizor are destroyed by Hidden Power Fire. The fact that Greninja is able to take such advantage of its one true counter is incredible and makes it infinitely more viable.
Greninja is absolutely metagame defining, consistent and threatening to all playstyles, which in my book fits the S rank perfectly.
You neglected to mention that Spikes Greninja can't do jack to Starmie unless it runs Dark Pulse over Ice Beam or HP Fire (Hydro Pump is a must so it's non-negotiable). By doing so Greninja now loses to certain defoggers so it's far from the be-all and end-all spiker. Greninja is a good pokemon but it's no S-rank material. A+ is fine.
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formerly Smog Frog
It still beats Skarmory, the only defogger it doesn't beat with dark pulse is mega scizor, which is kinda bad tbh
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 330-393 (125.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Most starmies nowadays are max hp (so it's probably not an ohko), but greninja with grass knot still beat it 1v1.
Hydro / ice beam / Grass knot / dark pulse is a perfectly fine option, especially when paired with Magnezone. It hits Mew, Gengar, Starmie, and the multitude of psychic types that have risen in usage lately. SE wth dark pulse, while also scoring a 2HKO against Rotom, the only reason to run HP grass. GK still hits keld while also OHKOing mega Gyara and 2HKOIng AV Azu.
HP fire is still a good option, but Dark Pulse isn't bad like it used to be.
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