Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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What do people think of Weavile this gen? There was a bit of conversation way back in the thread about B+, though not much (and opinions may have changed over time). I've been running LO Weavile and the Knock Off buff was pretty damn great; among other things, it cleanly OHKOs uninvested Aegislash-Shield and still has a slight chance of OHKOing 252/0. Its speed is pretty nice too (outspeeds Greninja/Noivern and OHKOs both!), but Dark/Ice isn't the best typing to have in a meta with Mach/Bullet Punch everywhere. All factors considered I don't know where I'd rank it, but I haven't been disappointed by it.
I would put Weavile in B- or C+. It does beat greninja/noivern, which is fun, and it loves the steel nerf/dark buff and the knock off buff, but it absolutely hates all the priority flying (heh heh) around OU right now. Basically, it maybe kills something and then is instantly revenged by a ton of stuff. You certainly aren't going to sweep any kind of significant portion of the meta, and you can't even switch in except on a revenge kill/predicted psychic move. Probably C+.
 
I'm going to second Mega Mawile for A+. Having run both SD and Sub versions, I can attest to its terrifying efficiency as a wallbreaker. I can expect it to net at least one kill per match, and oft is it two or even three. Between its typing, Intimidate in baseform, and bulk better than Rotom-W, to switch it in is surprisingly not very hard, and the way it scares things into switching out means, you will get those free turns. It's one of the better things to absorb Knock Off, since a lot of its users take massive damage from STAB Play Rough, and they want to switch out. It is rather slow though, which can be taken advantage of, and there are a few things that stop both versions (the Ground/Flyings come to mind, and Rotom-W) which keeps it from being S. But these problematic checks can be handled with a simple core with, for example, Latios.

Because of it's bulky-offence nature, it's not exactly a straight sweeper as M-Pinsir or Charizard-X is, and from my experience it rarely bulldozes teams whole. It's rather like Kyurem-B, something that blows massive holes into a team, so that a late-game sweeper can clear off the weakened remains, and it really does do that. Dragons always appreciate Mawile as a sweeping partner, and SubPunch helps late-game sweepers like Talonflame, who want Heatran gone. Overall, its sheer power and wallbreaking potential easily makes it A+.
 
Can someone mind helping me link to the post which first discussed about M.Lucario should be in B-? I would like to read it up before I make any points about it because I have been using M.Lucario since its released so to say I have a lot of experience with him with handling different Pokemons; both soloing and receiving support from team. I also would like to add in that with the right team composition, M.Lucario is terrifying.

sidakarya : I like your sig!
 
Can someone mind helping me link to the post which first discussed about M.Lucario should be in B-? I would like to read it up before I make any points about it because I have been using M.Lucario since its released so to say I have a lot of experience with him with handling different Pokemons; both soloing and receiving support from team. I also would like to add in that with the right team composition, M.Lucario is terrifying.

sidakarya : I like your sig!
I think you're confusing Mega Lucario with Lucario. Pretty sure Mega Lucario's been S since the start.

EDIT: If you still want the initial post, it was a nomination for B. Minimal discussion between B- and B followed with no consensus.


I knew something was missing from the viability list...
Nominating Lucario for
B Rank

Lucario has been an incredible offensive Pokemon ever since its introduction in Gen IV (DPPt). With a versatile movepool and great mixed stats to complement, Lucario excels at sweeping late-game with its tried and true Swords Dance set.
A powerful Extreme Speed is one of Lucario's merits when it comes to sweeping. An Adamant +2 Life Orb Boosted Extreme Speed can spell game for a weakened offensive team. Extreme Speed finds more merit than ever before thanks to the prevalence of one of OU's most dangerous priority abusers, Talonflame.
Close Combat is a powerful STAB capable of 2HKOing a majority of the defensive Pokemon that reside in OU. Anything slower than Lucario is doomed to be hit by its Close Combat and not many can take a hit and shrug it off too comfortably.
Crunch rounds out the set with (near) perfect coverage hitting Aegislash for super-effective damage, a Pokemon that would normally force out or KO Lucario.
Although it's not really a valid reason, the offensive buff to Dark Type moves have made them ever so more popular to utilize. This works in favor for Justified Lucario, as gaining a free +1 Attack boost on the switch is great for Lucario.
All of these positive traits make Lucario look an extremely promising Pokemon capable of 6-0ing teams.


However

Lucario has several glaring flaws that have only been magnified in the XY OU metagame ; these flaws are severe enough to hold Lucario back in B Rank, in my opinion.
The prevalence of Ghost Types (thanks to the buff) makes Lucario's life harder than ever. There innate immunity to Extreme Speed and Close Combat forces Lucario to run Crunch for coverage. This makes it harder for Lucario to run other moves such as Bullet Punch, Ice Punch or even Earthquake.
Fairy Type Pokemon are straight up troublesome for Lucario ; while a +2 Close Combat will dent any Fairy Pokemon severely, they are capable of retaliating and finishing Lucario's sweep earlier.
Lucario also still suffers from 4MSS and it only got worse with XY. Various new threats demand different attack responses from Lucario and unless Lucario gets a fifth moveslot, there's no way Lucario can finish all of the threats on its own ; this in turn makes Lucario much more team dependent (which isn't bad - just holds Lucario back from reaching higher ranks).


tl;dr - Lucario has the offensive potential to reach high ranks easily. It's offensive ability alone, automatically places it above C Rank easily. However, Lucario's flaws are hard to ignore and demand some serious team support, making it difficult for Lucario to be self-efficient, a trait many A Rank Pokemon possess.

...however if anyone can convince me that Lucario is A-Rank, I'll gladly hop on with their argument
;]
 
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I think you're confusing Mega Lucario with Lucario. Pretty sure Mega Lucario's been S since the start.
Ah, is that so. I guess there were so many pages that went by the last time I was on. It was page 41 now it's all the way till 121. My bad (must be the urge to just scan every page to catch up to the latest so I must've missed it). However, I would like to request that particular post on Lucario if possible, if anyone remembered which page was it.

EDIT: And by particular post, I mean the reason why Lucario should be ranked B-.

Thanks Sandoori, this should be plenty of help.

EDIT2: Now that I have read the initial post regarding Lucario. I have to agree with him being in B Rank; specifically B+. He does have the flaws stated. However, with Lucarionite out of the way, Lucario have all the held item usage he can use; from Focus Sash to Life Orb. His variety of sets with different items may make his opponent go on a first guessing game; eg. with Focus Sash, he can stay alive from any super effective moves and get a free Swords Dance off and can CC/E-Speed/etc.

Another scenario holds with his HA Justified, with Wish Support then switching into a Dark move he gets +1 then a Wish to be able to use his Focus Sash and SD for a +3 in total (an example of team support). All in all, I nominate him for B+. No Less, no more.
 
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November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'll second Mega Mawile for A+ rank.

I've been using a Substitute + Pain Split set, and been extremely impressed with the results. Substitute's utility goes without saying, but Pain Split gives Mawile a means of semi-reliable recovery that also takes big bites out of the opponent's HP as well. Mawile's base 50 HP really shines here.

Mawile is an excellent switchin for all of the U-turns and Knock Offs being thrown around, and being able to threaten Bisharp and Conkeldurr back with Play Rough is excellent. It's an excellent check to Genesect that are below 60%-ish, as Scarf variants only carry attacking moves, which forces them to activate Sucker Punch or switch out.

Mawile's ability to reliably score at least one KO makes it an excellent team player. It needs some support to cover its weaknesses, but so does everything else, really. It's not outclassed by anything, IMO, and is one of the top Megas right now.

It's quite hard to counter, and often has to be checked and played around. Its movepool is what? Sucker Punch, Play Rough, Substitute, Swords Dance, Pain Split, Fire Fang, Focus Punch, Brick Break, Knock Off, Iron Head, ect. It can feasibly run a set to counter almost any switchin.
 
I got a couple more for D rank

Barbaracle- can shell smash sweep completely outclassed by cloyster lack of strong enough moves easily revenged good ability to suit attacking needs.

Exploud-Choice specs scrappy boomburst really powerful but to slow lack of bulk and easily revenged

I believe this should go along with pokes such as honchkrow who have a very small niche in the meta also i agree just take malamar completely off the list its not worth it at all and about as viable as spinda was last gen.
Actually Barbaracle outdamages every Cloyster's attack bar Icicle Spear(and Stone Edge from him is still strong as fuck).

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 230-275 (51.8 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 155-185 (34.9 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 138-163 (31 - 36.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Barbaracle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 196-232 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 16.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 170-201 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Electric: 193-228 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

The barnacle has also the advantage of not being Rock weak and has nearly guaranteed setup on Talonflame. Solid B rank imho.
 
Yeah, Mega Mawile would be a good fit for A+. It's got great bulk, phenomenal typing, absurd offensive prowess, great coverage, powerful priority, a boosting move. It's got absolutely everything it needs in order to succeed, and its coverage makes it nigh uncounterable until you've figured out exactly what it's running. Of course, it's pretty much always going to have Play Rough and Sucker Punch, but from there, whether or not Skarmory, Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, etc. can check it depends entirely on what kind of Mawile build you're running. Jolly Mega Mawile can outspeed min Speed Rotom-W and can OHKO it at +2 with Play Rough. Mega Venusaur gets smacked by Iron Head, Skarmory by Fire Fang, Heatran by Knock Off and Brick Break. Only Mega Venusaur out of that entire list wants to take a Focus Punch. It's just a really phenomenal Pokemon, and it deserves to be in A+.

Gourgeist-Super should probably drop down to C+, and Gourgeist-Small even further down (don't really care where, I've never wanted to use it). It's a good Pokemon, but even though I never thought I'd say this, Trevenant is usually better. While Gourgeist has a lot more physical bulk Trevenant has a bit more special bulk and a ton more longevity. Gourgeist has to rely solely on Leech Seed and Leftovers for survivability, which is generally fine early on in the match, but really weighs down on it as the match progresses. Trevenant, on the other hand, is capable of either being a phenomenal status absorber with reliable recovery in Lum Rest or just won't die thanks to Sitrus Harvest and Leech Seed. This makes Trevenant much better equipped to take on Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur (can burn it, fearing only the generally rare Knock Off and doesn't care much about potential Poison from Sludge Bomb), Landorus (strongest move gets a 3HKO without factoring Sitrus and/or Leech Seed), Thundurus (LO HP Ice gets a 3HKO without factoring Sitrus and/or Leech Seed), Keldeo (Specs HP Ice has a 3% chance to 2HKO without factoring Sitrus), and even Mega Gardevoir (it can switch into Hyper Voice with Sitrus once and proceed to 2HKO with Horn Leech). Grass/Ghost typing is better for checking special attackers for the most part, and Trevenant doesn't get worn down nearly as easily throughout the match.

Barbaracle is bad, and so is Cloyster. It's not B-rank at all lol. Both are still outsped by the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier (Genesect) if they run +Atk natures, are incredibly vulnerable to priority, pretty much have to kill or be killed, don't find many opportunities to set up at all, and should remain unranked. Hell, Barbaracle can't even switch into Talonflame and set up because:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 104-123 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Switches in, takes ~40. If you Smash as the Talonflame user switches out:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Barbaracle: 156-184 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

With Stealth Rock, that's a guaranteed KO. Without it, there's a solid chance of KOing.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
On the topic of wobuffet, its important to note that it can't touch aegislash. At all.
Considering most aegislash run shadow ball (can be mirror coated) and/or swords dance (can be encored), I don't see how aegislash is any different from any other physical attacking ghost with regards to how wob can deal with it.
 

Rotosect

Banned deucer.
Barbaracle is bad, and so is Cloyster.
Barbaracle is outclassed by Cloyster, but Cloyster isn't bad at all.

It's not B-rank at all lol. Both are still outsped by the most common Choice Scarf user in the tier (Genesect)
Not for long. And no, Scarf Genesect does not outspeed +2 speed Cloyster.

if they run +Atk natures, are incredibly vulnerable to priority
Cloyster not only has massive physical bulk which lets it shrug off any priority not named Vacuum Wave (the only user being Mega Lucario who is most likely getting the boot soon), but it has priority itself in the form of Ice Shard.

pretty much have to kill or be killed,
You mean like the other frail sweepers such as Lucario and Talonflame?

don't find many opportunities to set up at all,
Cloyster can easily set up against the likes of Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Excadrill and Landorus-T, who are fairly common. Also thanks to Defog's buff now a Focus Sash set actually makes sense.

and should remain unranked.
Hell no, Cloyster is definitely a B-rank pokemon at the very worst, being a great lategame sweeper as well as one of the very few who doesn't rely on contact moves so it's not screwed up by King's Shield and Rocky Helmet+Iron Barbs shenanigans.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
UPDATE TIME:

Sableye: Unranked ---> B-
Clefable: B+ ---> A-
Deoxys-S: S ---> A+
Vaporeon: Unranked ---> C+
Diggersby: C+ ---> B-
Ferrothorn: A ---> B+
Dugtrio: Unranked ---> C+
Tornadus-T: Unranked ---> B-
Politoed: Unranked ---> A-
Crawdaunt: Unranked ---> C+
Rotom-H: Unranked ---> B-
Abomasnow (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Empoleon: Unranked ---> C
Celebi: Unranked ---> B-
Manectric (Mega): B ---> B-
Chesnaught: Unranked ---> B-
Blissey: Unranked ---> B
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> S
Charizard (Mega-X): A+ ---> S
Charizard (Mega-Y): A+ ---> S
Lucario (regular): Unranked ---> B-
Skarmory: B+ ---> A-
Breloom: Unranked ---> B-
Zapdos: B ---> B+
Absol (Mega): B ---> B-
Entei: B ---> B-
Jellicent: B ---> B-
Moltres: Unranked ---> C
Kyurem: Unranked ---> B
Thundurus-T: Unranked ---> B+
Medicham (Mega): A ---> B
Roserade: Unranked ---> B-
Aerodactyl (Mega): ---> Unranked ---> B
Whimsicott: Unranked ---> C
Liepard: Unranked ---> C
Weezing: Unranked ---> D
Volcarona: Unranked ---> B
Gliscor: A ---> B+
Hippowdon: Unranked ---> B
Malamar: D ---> Unranked

Any Pokemon that was proposed to change ranks or get a ranking and isn't in the list hasn't been ignored. We looked over all the suggestions since the last time i updated the thread, so everything that didn't make it in the list either didn't need a change in rank or wasn't worthy of being ranked. Also, as you can see we added an A- rank, as requested.

Now that we have the majority of viable Pokemon ranked, i would like to see some focus on the ranks that aren't very crowded, such as A- and B+. I think that some Pokemon from A rank can be moved down to A- and some Pokemon from B can be moved up to B+, so that the size of each rank is a bit more balanced.
 
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UPDATE TIME:

Sableye: Unranked ---> B-
Clefable: B+ ---> A-
Deoxys-S: S ---> A+
Vaporeon: Unranked ---> C+
Diggersby: C+ ---> B-
Ferrothorn: A ---> B+
Dugtrio: Unranked ---> C+
Tornadus-T: Unranked ---> B-
Politoed: Unranked ---> A-
Crawdaunt: Unranked ---> C+
Rotom-H: Unranked ---> B-
Abomasnow (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Empoleon: Unranked ---> C
Celebi: Unranked ---> B-
Manectric (Mega): B ---> B-
Chesnaught: Unranked ---> B-
Blissey: Unranked ---> B
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> S
Charizard (Mega-X): A+ ---> S
Charizard (Mega-Y): A+ ---> S
Lucario (regular): Unranked ---> B-
Skarmory: B+ ---> A-
Breloom: Unranked ---> B-
Zapdos: B ---> B+
Absol (Mega): B ---> B-
Entei: B ---> B-
Jellicent: B ---> B-
Moltres: Unranked ---> C
Kyurem: Unranked ---> B
Thundurus-T: Unranked ---> B+
Medicham (Mega): A ---> B
Roserade: Unranked ---> B-
Aerodactyl (Mega): ---> Unranked ---> B
Whimsicott: Unranked ---> C
Liepard: Unranked ---> C
Weezing: Unranked ---> D
Volcarona: Unranked ---> B
Gliscor: A ---> B+
Hippowdon: Unranked ---> B
Malamar: D ---> Unranked

Any Pokemon that was proposed to change ranks or get a ranking and isn't in the list hasn't been ignored. We looked over all the suggestions since the last time i updated the thread, so everything that didn't make it in the list either didn't need a change in rank or wasn't worthy of being ranked. Also, as you can see we added an A- rank, as requested.

Now that we have the majority of viable Pokemon ranked, i would like to see some focus on the ranks that aren't very crowded, such as A- and B+. I think that some Pokemon from A rank can be moved down to A- and some Pokemon from B can be moved up to B+, so that the size of each rank is a bit more balanced.
Forgive me if I missed something, but I could have sworn we agreed Hippowdon as A- Rank. Seems like a slight jump from A- to B.
 
Eh, wasnt there a general agreement for Kyurem Black to be A+? I dont see a reason why it would not deserve the rank after all that discussion and considering his effectiveness as a wallbreaker. Other than that i more or less agree with the updated though i dont really understand why is liepard being ranked or why ferrothorn dropped.
 
Yeah, I don't care for a few of the changes. Mega Aerodactyl, Kyurem-N, and Thundurus-T definitely aren't B-rank to me at all when they're either outshined by an alternate forme or just not very good, and Whimsicott and Liepard are both garbage and probably shouldn't be ranked at all.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Don't forget that the placement on each Pokemon is based not only on the posts in this thread, but also on the opinion of the OU mods and certain skilled individuals. Kyurem-B and Hippo were close calls (the first between A+ and A and the latter between B+ and B), but in the end this was the outcome. As for some quick reasoning about each Pokemon's ranking, Kyu-B was placed in A and not in A+ because it's lack of immediate power when using its best set (Sub + 3 attacks) made it easier to handle in comparison to other Pokemon that can wallbreak, such as Aegislash, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Garchomp, and Mega Lucario. Hippowdon, while a good physical wall, fails to wall every single offensive threats in S rank, which greatly hurts its viability and makes it struggle vs many offensive teams. Liepard was put to C because it's SwagPlay set is both annoying and effective on the right team, though it does need a team build around it to be used to its full potential. Finally, Ferrothorn dropped to B+ because it fails to all offensive Pokemon in S rank, and it's hazards are not hard at all to remove.

The arguments that i presented about the ranking of each of those Pokemon are not mine, it's just the general consensus as to why they where placed in those ranks. If you believe that their advantages are enough to overcome those drawbacks and raise them up a rank or two, feel free to post and convince us for the next update.
 
Understandable, yet I had just felt that a few of the posts regarding Hippowdon had made a good case for him to be A- but if the higher ups saw it as B then sit is what it is.

Guess its time to move on then to the next ranking.
 
UPDATE TIME:

Tornadus-T: Unranked ---> B-

Now that we have the majority of viable Pokemon ranked, i would like to see some focus on the ranks that aren't very crowded, such as A- and B+. I think that some Pokemon from A rank can be moved down to A- and some Pokemon from B can be moved up to B+, so that the size of each rank is a bit more balanced.
Yooooo...... Torn-T in B-? More like A-/A. Can we start a discussion on this mon? There were a few posts in the last 2 pages but all were shortlived. It was between B+, A-, and A. B-? I can't even.

Rest seems fine to me.
 
No Mew? The Defog set from the working analysis is extremely good, and if you are using your Mega-Slot for something other than Mega Scizor you'll be hard pressed to find a better Defensive Defoger.

Hazard Control
########
name: Hazard Control
move 1: Defog
move 2: Stealth Rock
move 3: Soft-Boiled
move 4: Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
ability: Synchronize
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk
nature: Bold

Also if you want to go pure Defog stallbreaker, quote from Alexwolf: "Defog + Taunt + WoW + Softboiled is the best Defog set, beating most SR setters easily (Ferro, Hippo, Terrakion, Garchomp (without SD), Landorus-T (though U-turn hurts)) and still having great stallbreaking skills."

The set Alexwolf mentioned is the set I'm running currently. With all the U-turn pokemon in the metagame it may seem to be a liability, but a WoW on a predicted switch to a U-turner really ruins the opponent's day. In addition to stallbreaking, the set can burn and stall to death even offensively oriented pokemon. Taunt has great utility as well, allowing you to stop Rotom-W from pain splitting back to good health in addition to stopping slower hazard users. It does face some competition from the Lati twins and Mandibuzz, but it seems to be a "B tier" threat easily, if not higher. To say it's not "viable" by not even having it on the rankings imho seems to be a mistake.
 
Nominating Slowking for B rank
It is basically identical to slowbro except one is physically bulky and the other is specially bulky. If bro is b rank than so should king. hell if anything king is actually better since it gets dragon tail for more team support. I just feel that a pokemon that is extremely similar to, but not worse than, a b rank pokemon should also be b rank.
 
Nominating Slowking for B rank
It is basically identical to slowbro except one is physically bulky and the other is specially bulky. If bro is b rank than so should king. hell if anything king is actually better since it gets dragon tail for more team support. I just feel that a pokemon that is extremely similar to, but not worse than, a b rank pokemon should also be b rank.
I disagree. That physical bulk from Slowbro is way more useful than the special bulk from Slowking seeing its typing and the metagame right now. Slowbro can take a hit from Charizard-X, Garchomp, Talonflame etc. reliably while Slowking can't.
 
alexwolf

Suicune is still not added to the rankings? Its CroCune set imo is still a very potent threat as a late-game sweeper, and most viable revenge killers/late-game sweepers still has a hard time against Suicune.
 
How come Alakazam is listed as a B but Mega Alakazam is not listed at all?
Well in general, regular Zam is better than Mega-Zam. Though I agree that even if this is the case, it's a bit weird that it's mega is not ranked. I'd nominate it for C+ or B- rank, because it may be worse than regular Zam, but that insane speed can be useful at times.
 
The S Tier is looking a bit crowded now, but it'll be less so once Megaluke and possibly Genesect get the boot. Who would have guessed a year ago that Charizard of all things, that fanboy pokemon that's been mocked for most of the metagame's history, would soon be an S Ranked threat?
 
Well in general, regular Zam is better than Mega-Zam. Though I agree that even if this is the case, it's a bit weird that it's mega is not ranked. I'd nominate it for C+ or B- rank, because it may be worse than regular Zam, but that insane speed can be useful at times.
That insane speed means nothing when it can't even take a Sucker Punch without dying. I genuinely would not bother touching Mega-Zam for my Mega Slot. I rather have the Magic Guard-Revenge Killing Ability of Alakazam. Let it stay unranked.
 
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