XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Aldaron]

Hey guys, it's time for the first OverUsed suspect test in XY!

The suspects are Lucarionite, Genesect, and Deoxys-S.

You'll have to qualify on two ladders: the OU and OU (Suspect) ladders. As of right now, the goal will be a 1700 ELO rating with Glicko 1 deviation of 50 or less on the standard ladder and a 1400 ELO rating with the same deviaton on the suspect ladder. Note that these ratings / deviations requirements are NOT set in stone; we may change them depending on how the ladders play out. Your general goal should just be to play on each ladder and do well.

We aren't resetting the main OU ladder (because there is no need to), but be sure to make the suspect ladder as active as possible!

This suspect test will end at 11:59:00 EST on Sunday, February 9, 2014, and we'll gather all the qualifiers for a vote sometime during the next week.

(The OU (Suspect) ladder will be up sometime before 11:59 EST tonight)

Once you qualify, be sure to take a screenshot (including both the rating, deviation, and your name at the top right corner of the showdown window) and keep it until the qualification thread is posted.

Please use this thread to discuss the suspects, but please remain civil and try to stay on topic.

If you have questions regarding the current test, then feel free to contact me (or Haunter / M Dragon / McMeghan / Nachos) via PM.

Good luck everybody and have fun on the ladder!


Chou Edit:
"Mega Pokemon are supposed to be stronger" is not an argument that will be acknowledged. Use it once, and I'll delete it. Use it more often, and I'll start handing out "lurk more" warnings. You have been warned.

 

[Always!]

Req's are gonna be tough....

Bur anyway, I feel that Genesect may be banned, Mega Lucario might be banned, Deoxys-S probably won't be banned

 

[Nog]

Deo-S is the only one that has a chance or staying out of ubers, the other two should easily be banned. GL everyone trying to ladder

 

[Dr Ciel]

Mega Lucario has the highest chance of going to Ubers, in my opinion. Genesect definitely might be banned, & Deoxys-S I'm on the fence about. Anyways, good luck with getting Reqs, everyone!

 

[asbdsp]

I'm not exactly sure if its customary to do suspect tests with more than one suspect, but right off the bat I think it's interesting to note how the suspects interact with one another. For example Deo-Speed as an effective hazard setter making Mega Lucario more effective as a sweeper. If a particular style like that is broken, then we'd have to look at who is the more egregious offender. In that example I definitely feel it would be Mega Lucario, but not sure if its definitively "broken".

 

[pharaohcalvin]

All three are very powerful, and very worthy of the test. I do wish everyone the best of luck getting the reqs, as I will be unable to join you in that quest because of school work.

 

[SergantGold]

I feel that Mega Luke definitely will be banned, that Gene probably will not be banned, as it seems far easier to handle this gen, and that Deoxys-S won't be banned. Even though it is incredibly versatile, I don't believe it hits hard enough/supports well enough to warent Ubers

 

[trc]

deo-s probably won't go, can't say much for the rest though. Urghh reqs look difficult...

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Definitely looking forward to the results of this test. Genesect and especially Mega Lucario should go, but I don't really think that Deoxys-S is ban-worthy at the moment.

 

[JackTheGordie]

So pumped for this test. I'm thinking(and hoping) mega luke gets the boot. Gene and deo-s aren't as bad this gen so hopefully they stay. Good luck to everyone on laddering.

 

[Jaiho]

Since I feel that the other two will take the limelight of this Suspect test, I am going to talk about Deoxys-S. I feel that it shouldn't be banned, since this gen has been extremely harsh on it. Its suicide sets, whether it be dual screens or hazard lead, are both made far more ineffective by the Defog buff, which gets rid of both, and is unblockable outside of Taunt. Excadrill and M-Blastoise are also very good spinners in this meta, being able to be the common spinblockers. It is also very easily limited to one layer due to priority becoming increasingly popular, most notably on Aegislash.

The LO offensive set is far better than the two sets mentioned above, since it outspeeds many relevant scarfers and pokes at +1. However, it depends too heavily on stat dropping moves (Psycho Boost and Superpower) to power through bulky pokemon, and is once again destroyed by priority coming from Bisharp, M-Mawile, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Talonflame. Overall I think that Deo-S is fine in OU.

 

[Jukain]

mega lucario just needs to gtfo out of ou. there are just so few ways to handle it, and many of them are totally destroyed by the other set than the one they are meant to check. let's talk np, which is p much it's ~best~ set. there's aegi, talonflame (revenge kills), thund-i (twaves), av conk, zapdos, a few scarfers i guess...and then what else exactly?

and, sd fucks zapdos and av conk if it runs that. you never know which mega luc it is until it's too late.

so, mega luc gets priority, so it's not easy to revenge kill. it has ridiculously powerful adaptability-boosted stab moves that power through resists, and twin offenses stats with boosting moves to match, and a pretty good typing that grants it a decent amount of setup opportunities. not to mention, it can hit hard mid-game instead of JUST sweeping late-game. mega luc is really, really difficult to even check, and is really just way too powerful for ou.

---

deo-s i'm really on the fence about, tbh. like, defog /should/ deal with it, but in particular the deo-s + bird teams make it almost impossible to defog. the hazards it provides are instrumental in allowing such teams to absolutely demolish in ou. this is not to mention the deo-s + bisharp teams, which punish defog users, making it difficult to defog lest you be swept by bisharp, and thus leaving hazards a player in the match. honestly, its hazard supporting capabilities are just so insane for these types of teams, and it can also fulfill a different role of a revenge killer and cleaner with a life orb that wrecks ways to handle the hazard setter and overall is just just a pain to deal with, that i am really not sure whether it's balanced in ou. like

Since I feel that the other two will take the limelight of this Suspect test, I am going to talk about Deoxys-S. I feel that it shouldn't be banned, since this gen has been extremely harsh on it. Its suicide sets, whether it be dual screens or hazard lead, are both made far more ineffective by the Defog buff, which gets rid of both, and is unblockable outside of Taunt. Excadrill and M-Blastoise are also very good spinners in this meta, being able to be the common spinblockers. It is also very easily limited to one layer due to priority becoming increasingly popular, most notably on Aegislash.
The LO offensive set is far better than the two sets mentioned above, since it outspeeds many relevant scarfers and pokes at +1. However, it depends too heavily on stat dropping moves (Psycho Boost and Superpower) to power through bulky pokemon, and is once again destroyed by priority coming from Bisharp, M-Mawile, Aegislash, Azumarill, and Talonflame. Overall I think that Deo-S is fine in OU.

this comment doesn't really hold up against these types of teams where you barely get any opportunities to defog. the thing with the lo set is that it really shines vs. the offensive teams that dominate this meta, but falters against bulkier teams, which are also very common, so how bad it is remains to be seen.

---

gene, too, i'm really not sure about. probably because most of the ladder is using special scarf instead of physical scarf w/ iron head, and there aren't as many shift gear and band ones. i think if those variants of gene become more prominent, it could become a real issue. for now, it just isn't as ridiculous with this set being the one most ladder players are employing.

 

[sidakarya]

I'm really looking forward to this test. Requirements are seriously tough though...!

Yes, Mega Lucario definitely looks very likely to go. Adaptability shouldn't be on something this fast and this strong (it never was until M-Lucario). On something with 150/115/112 offences, it is absolutely ridiculous - it's like Gamefreak took the jokes of Huge Power Slaking and Archaeops seriously. To make it worse you have no idea, what it's going to do. Zapdos is the closest thing to a "counter", but if it uses Ice Punch or get flinched with Dark Pulse you're screwed...

Genesect is similar, in a way. Even though it's not as absurdly powerful as M-Luke, it really did not change much in the transition to this metagame, and it's really just as hard to handle as before (even harder potentially - Gen V OU didn't experience the wonders of Shift Gear and Extremespeed). It should go too imo, and it might well. Deo-S looks least likely to be banned though.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

The only thing here that really needs to go ASAP is Mega-Lucario. While Deoxys-S and Genesect are spectacular and potentially uber, they just aren't nearly as incredibly broken as the powerhouse that is Mega-Lucario.

I want to defend Genesect a bit. While it hasn't gotten any worse in the new gen, everything else has gotten much better, and there are a few new checks to the scarf set, the most common one by far. Shift gear is scary, but I don't see it being a good enough sweeper to necessarily need banning.

 

[Ash Borer]

I agree that Deoxys-S is really not an overbearing force. The hazard lead is very annoying, it facilitates some hyper offensive styles, but defog is such stiff balance to this, preventing a latios, or scizor from defogging is hard. The offensive set is strong, but priority and walls bring it to its knees.

It's just another balanced pokemon in my opinion.

 

[jgj]

Mega Luke should definitely be banned and I agree with Deo S being easier to handle this gen. Gene might not be banned because of often used mons this Gen being able to check it rather well (Rotom-W, Conkeldurr AV, Talonflame).
Quick question: do the ladder ratings have to be on the same alt?

 

[Blaziken48]

What the hell, 1700 rank? There's only 40 that can vote, good job on just leaving the power of all the smogon rules and players to 40 people who try too hard on the ladder. Genesect I don't care, Deoxys is annoying so sure, but FUCK Mega Luke he is OP and can kill at least 1 mon with no effort at all.

145/140/112 offenses are ridiculous off the bat, and he has a 120 BP STAB move to fuck whatever slow thing that is in its way. 112 speed outspeeds MOST Revenge killers, and it resists bullet punch and sucker punch. He also has an ability that gives him an extra attack boost if your deoxys is about to be fucked. Oh and if 112 speed isn't enough, this fucker has 3 DIFFERENT FUCKING 80 BP PRIORITY MOVES with means to boost either of its offenses.

Genesect isn't bad, it's just unpredictable and versatile. It can pull off most sets and be average in OU, but people always use the choice scarf set that will straight up fuck you over if you guess wrong. It's like a faster, more annoying hydreigon. The only things that I think keep it from being as broken as mega Luke are lack of powerful STAB moves and GF putting its speed at 1 below tier standard. It's like they wanted it to be really good but not OP. We should take a hint.

Deoxys-S isn't bad, all it does is lay hazards and nuke something before it faints. Sableye fucks it, and rapid spinner fucks its strategy after you handle it. and you kill it with priority or multi hit moves.

Damn right I'm mad, I've never had a battle without Mega Lucario either being a problem or sweeping my good team and I have like 3 checks for it (Azumarill, Talonflame, and Latios). Just the thought brings rage to my mind again. If you switch out on it, it's going to directly sweep your ass no matter what you do. Switch to a physical wall, say Hippowdon? 240 BP+2 close combat good luck defending that, (BAN ME PLEASE). Or it might even be a special sweeper and surprise either you switch again or it KO's you. And then the next 5 mons because of its priority and speed. It's too fast/powerful for my hyper offense team, and too versatile for a stall or balanced team. Hell, it even can kill a trick room team with its priority. You know what I'm just going to make a team with Lucario to satisfy my anger. Also if it was banned, Pokemon X and Y gives you an uber in the beginning of the game (level 25). Gamefreak needs to make a pokemon game that's HARD.

 

[sidakarya]

I actually think, Genesect's real potential has yet to be explored. That whole "lol instant momentum" Scarf set would have been fair arseholery of itself, but people are so used to the Scarf set, that bluffing it is so incredibly easy. And in doing so, with your flawless coverage, you're guaranteed to take out a probably crucial part of the opponent's team. They never know until the damage is done, because it cannot be taken on without knowing it's set absolutely. Even Talonflame isn't safe, because of Extremespeed, and you could even do that whole Gen 5 "let's U-Turn to Dugtrio on the Heatran switchin" if you bothered to. Shift Gear just adds to this, and that's a set, for which many teams are terribly underprepared.

Granted, it does do all of this (unpredictability + power + instant threat) in a less blatant manner as M-Luke, but really, it only seems "not broken" compared to it.

 

[Jukain]

yeah genesect is an amazing pokemon at everything it does, super unpredictable, and if people were using non-special scarf sets i have a feeling it'd be utterly retarded to deal with

 

[aVocado]

"lol instant momentum" is a big part of why it's broken, though. and Choice Band + possible Download boost hits extremely hard. It needs to go imo, the only Pokemon that can potentially wall it is Heatran.

Not to mention there are seriously like, 7-8 legit and viable sets Genesect can run.

 

[Lady Alex]

Nice. I was hoping we wouldn't have to have an individual suspect test for each mon. I predict that Lucarionite and Genesect will be banned, and Deo-S will stay in OU. Then, after some time has passed, everyone will realize that both it and Deoxys-D are both still broken just like last time.

 

[a_dollar]

I am so happy to see this, Mega luke is so broken and i had been running a scarf Espeon to deal with all 3 of these threats but even that loses to Lucario if it gets a boost and has the priority

 

[Swamp Link]

I don't know how I feel about testing them together, because, as asbdsp said, the suspects, particularly Deo-S and Luke, are in part so powerful because of how they work with each other. I don't think Lucario would be nearly as good if it didn't have such reliable hazard support from Deoxys (both formes) available to it. At the same time, I doubt that Deoxys' hazard support would be so valuable if a pokemon like Mega Lucario didn't exist to put such ridiculous pressure as to make defogging very difficult. Lucario's less broken without Deoxys, and Deoxys is less broken without Lucario, but it's hard to tell which is the real problem. I'm not sure if either is entirely unhealthy for the metagame, though.

As for Genesect, I'm pretty sure the best set is the banded set. Despite not having STAB, Download-boosted Extremespeed is really fucking strong, and considering that most people are trying to make sure that it gets an Attack boost with their extra EV's, it's pretty common to get wrecked by it. It's stupidly simple for it to just come in and spam U-turn, do respectable damage, and wear the fuck out of the opposing team with little effort. The only real mitigating factor with Genesect is that, often, it gets worn down faster than you do, which makes it manageable-ish. And then there's the fact that it has viable sweeping sets that are viable in Rock Polish (meh) and Shift Gear (more threatening imo). It does literally have like 6 equally viable sets: Special Scarf, Physical Scarf, Band, Expert Belt, Rock Polish, and Shift Gear, so it's the most broken of the three imo, as there's really no way of stopping it from doing its job of getting momentum. A team can be stacked with a bunch of different Lucario checks and still be fairly viable while stopping that, and Deoxys is handled if you can get off a Defog (Mandibuzz = Life), but Genesect is unstoppable and has no obvious flaws besides the Fire-weakness, since it's not even that frail for OU at 71/95/95.

 

[ColtCababa]

Let's review:

There's Genesect, whom can basically either gain a huge amount of momentum once it obtains an Atk boost from Download and U-Turns out of it's usual checks, or flat out sweep single handedly with it's wider than average coverage after a SAtk boost. It requires little to no support courtesy of Download itself, and lays waste to any and all teams unprepared for it's onslaughts.

Mega Lucario has almost no counters. Adaptability boosts some of it's best attacks, such as Bullet Punch, Close Combat, and Vacuum Wave, and opponents have no way of knowing if it is a physical or special variant prior to attacking, meaning preparation may prove futile. It has everything that it once lacked as normal Lucario that held it back; a Spd increase and fantastic offensive stats.

Not much I can say in terms of Deoxys-S. From what I can gather, it's almost guaranteed to lay hazards, and has good enough offensive presence to keep pressure on the opponent.

But with all certainty, I'd vouch for Genesect and Mega Lucario for relinquishment to Ubers.

 

[G-Von]

Based on my experience on the ladder, Mega Lucario is by far the most likely pokemon to get banned during this test. As others have stated, 145 attack and 140 SpA plus Adaptability-boosted STAB's on top of 115 Base speed is a completely retarded. It 2HKO's all the physical walls trying to wall it when it uses its Special sets and pretty much OHKO's all the special walls with its physical sets. It is guaranteed to get a couple kills a game. It reminds me in a sense of Mega Gengar because everytime it comes in freely, it is guaranteed to net a kill because nothing can switch in, take an attack, and outspeed and KO M-Luke before getting KO'd itself. Let me just post some calcs to put this into perspective; Physical walls:

252 SpA Mega Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 248-292 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 242-286 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 124-146 (40.7 - 48%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 130-154 (40.1 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Deo-D fairs the best and still has a chance to get slaughtered by Mega-Luke. I wouldn't advise Aegislash running into Mega-Lucario recklessly like this either since it doesn't have any form of reliable recovery. Now here's the calcs of the special walls switching into the physical sets:

Blissey, Chansey, and Snorlax gets mauled; no calc is necessary to show for obvious reasons.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 380-448 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 260-308 (72.2 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-350 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 268-316 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 228-270 (57.8 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Honestly, Aegilash does seem like your best bet as an all-around switch in. However, its not hard to switch into Aegi since every team has should have an answer for it. Azumarrill almost made the cut as an offensive switch-in, but SR screwed that up. As you can see, you have to be lucky and predict correctly when switching into Mega-Luke and chances are, luck will not be on your side.

Genesect on the other hand has been pretty tame for the most part. I tried using it and I noticed it wasn't as effective as it used to be. I only used the generic Special scarfed set and that may have been why, but dealing with it has been too much of a pain for me either. The set that has given me the most trouble in the past has been the physical set just because I always expect the special attacking sets, whether it be scarfed or E-Belt.

Honestly, I haven't had too much experience facing Deo-S, so I cannot say at this time whether I believe it is ban worthy or not. I've been planning on trying its 4 attack LO set but I haven't gotten around to it.

In conclusion, ban the fuck out of Mega-Lucario based complete the complete absurdity of it effortlessly netting kills at will. I honestly think genesect makes the cut for OU for now, and i personally must abstain on Deo-S.