Zygarde (QC: 0/3)

[Take Azelfie]

[OVERVIEW]

* Zygarde is blessed with a new signature move in Thousand Arrows which lets it beat Flying-types in one coverage move.
* Has two forms of boosting in Coil and Dragon Dance which lets Zygarde not only boast some unpredictability but let it choose to run through bulkier or faster teams.
* Zygarde is amazing at pressuring the opponent into tight posistions due to all of its amazing assets.
* Has amazing bulk and typing that gives it many useful resistances and lets it have a better chance setting up in a match.
* Average speed tier and high attack with a great STAB makes it offensively threatening to.
* Can be very reliant on team matchup since a things like Toxic Spikes or bulky Grass-types can hinder its matchup extremely.
* Major weakness to Ice leaves Dragon Dance sets fearing Ice Shard and Coil sets being unable to sweep with strong Ice-type coverage is present.
[SET]
name: SubCoil
move 1: Coil
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Extreme Speed
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Careful
evs: 200 HP / 252 SpDef / 56 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Coil lets Zygarde build up physical bulk and attack simultaneously letting it match up much better against bulkier builds.
* Thousand Arrows is a great STAB move that has consistent damage and no immunities because it is able to hit Ground immune Pokemon.
* RestTalk let's Zygarde shrug off status effects and replenish HP while still being able to set up or attack while sleeping off the two turns.
* Sleep Talk could be replaced with Toxic which lets Zygarde cripple and wear down Unaware Pokemon like Quagsire and Clefable or bulky Pokemon that can take on Zygarde's STAB like Tangrowth and Buzzwhole.
* Substitute could be used as an alternative way to evade being worn down quickly and has the plus side of actually choosing your attacks all the time and evading Leech Seed.

Set Details
========

* Careful nature and maximum Special Defense EVs give Zygarde as much special bulk as possible to compliment the physical defense boost Coil gives you.
* 200 HP EVs lets it create Substitute's with 101 HP meaning Seismic Toss is unable to break it.
* 56 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant Bisharp and KO it with a Thousand Arrows or set up a Substitute before it could Knock Off your Leftovers.
* Leftovers aids in keeping Zygarde as healthy as possible and is the main form of recovery on sets using Substitute.

Usage Tips
========

* Zygarde should be brought onto Pokemon like Toxapex and Chansey and set up a Substitute immediately. From there Zygarde should choose to set up to clean the rest of the team or cripple the opponent with an attack or Toxic.
* Try to keep Zygarde from recieving any status effects as it severely hinders its ability to work from behind a Substitute so try to bring it in via U-turn or Volt Switch or when Misty Terrain is active.
* Zygarde can win the 1v1 against Tapu-Bulu if Zygarde has a Substitute up and hits Tapu-Bulu on the switch. Otherwise try to not let Zygarde waste too much HP setting up Substitute when itll just get removed.

Team Options
========

* Poison-types like Nihilego, Nidoking, and Gengar all help versus random Fairy- and Grass-types that could be a nuisance in Zygarde's way and remove Toxic Spikes that would otherwise limit Zygarde's ability to set up Substitutes. In return Zygarde can set up on most Steel-types that are immune to the Poison-types precious STAB.
* Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela help Zygarde by checking various Fairy- and Ice-types for Zygarde. Zygarde also gives them a useful Fire-type switch in.
* Tapu-Fini lets Zygarde come in freely on Pokemon like Slowbro or Toxapex without fear of getting burned by a Scald while also checking some of Zygarde's revenge killers like Weavile and Choice Scarf Latios.
* Psychic-types like Mega Metagross, Tapu-Lele, and Alakazam all benefit from Zygarde's ability to pressure Steel-types and can even opt for better coverage so they can hit different instead.
[SET]
name: Dragon Dance + Substitute
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Extremespeed / Outrage / Iron Tail
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Dragon Dance allows Zygarde to boost its speed to outpace every non boosted Pokemon and increase Zygarde's Attack to threatening high levels.
* Thousand Arrows gives Zygarde a powerful STAB that has no immunities.
* Substitute lets it stop defensive Pokemon from inflicting Zygarde with a status effect or to prevent Zygarde from being revenge killed easily.
* Extremespeed can be used to outpace other priority users, mainly Weavile, and have a revenge killing tool for Pokemon like Pheromosa and Greninja.
* Outrage is a high powered STAB that is good late game when there are a lack of healthy resist.
* Iron Tail is able to deal a large amount of damage to certain Fairy-types like Clefable and Tapu-Bulu, but it has low accuracy making it less reliable than the other options.
* Toxic could be used instead and it lets Zygarde out last Pokemon like Quagsire and Pyukumuku without fear of being unable to beat them and cripples defensive Pokemon like Tangrowth and Unaware Clefable throughout the entirety of the match.

Set Details
========

* The Speed EVs and Jolly let Zygarde outpace as much as possible while Attack EVs give it as much power as it can get.
* Leftovers allows Zygarde to recover HP slowly so it can set up multiple Substitutes throughout the match.
* Groundium Z could be used instead of Leftovers and it allows Zygarde to overpower many physically defensive Pokemon like Hippodown, Defensive Garchomp, and Magic Guard Clefable, but Zygarde loses its ability to keep Substitutes up throughout the match and restricts the teams Z-move.

Usage Tips
========

* Zygarde should be brought onto Pokemon like Toxapex and Chansey and set up a Substitute immediately. From there Zygarde should choose to set up to clean the rest of the team or cripple the opponent with an attack or Toxic.
* Try to keep Zygarde from recieving any status effects as it severely hinders its ability to work from behind a Substitute so try to bring it in via U-turn or Volt Switch or when Misty Terrain is active.
* Zygarde can win the 1v1 against Tapu-Bulu if Zygarde has a Substitute up and hits Tapu-Bulu on the switch. Otherwise try to not let Zygarde waste too much HP setting up Substitute when itll just get removed.

Team Options
========

* Poison-types like Nihilego, Nidoking, and Gengar all help versus random Fairy- and Grass-types that could be a nuisance in Zygarde's way and remove Toxic Spikes that would otherwise limit Zygarde's ability to set up Substitutes. In return Zygarde can set up on most Steel-types that are immune to the Poison-types precious STAB.
* Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela help Zygarde by checking various Fairy- and Ice-types for Zygarde. Zygarde also gives them a useful Fire-type switch in.
* Tapu-Fini lets Zygarde come in freely on Pokemon like Slowbro or Toxapex without fear of getting burned by a Scald while also checking some of Zygarde's revenge killers like Weavile and Choice Scarf Latios.
* Psychic-types like Mega Metagross, Tapu-Lele, and Alakazam all benefit from Zygarde's ability to pressure Steel-types and can even opt for better coverage so they can hit different instead.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Sludge Wave in tandem with Life Orb can be used to deal a large amount of damage to Tapu-Bulu and Tangrowth and although that is useful, usually isn't worth the slot due to the amount of prediction it needs and limited scenarios it would be usable.
* Dragon Tail can be used on Coil sets to rack up damage on the opponent while surviving many hits, but because it is slow and has a multitude of weaknesses it can be rather difficult to pull off.
* 152 Speed EVs creeps Defensive Garchomp but sacrifices bulk.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Tangrowth and Tapu-Bulu**: Both of these Pokemon resist the Zygarde's main STAB and can shrug off most of Zygarde's other options. Not only can they take on its attacks though but they both are incredibly hard to weaken throughout the match with Regenerator and Grassy Terrain respectively and can pressure both of Zygarde's sets.

**Physically Defensive Pokemon**: Many physically defensive Pokemon like Hippodown, Buzzwhole, and Quagsire can all tackle Zygarde's sets and usually have a way of beating them whether it would be through phazing, setting up alongside it, or packing super effective coverage.

**Fast Special Attackers**: Pokemon like Greninja, Pheromosa, Latios, and Tapu-Lele can all deal a large amount of damage to both of Zygarde's sets and the latter three can also revenge kill a +1 Zygarde when using a Choice Scarf. Although all of them bar Tapu-Lele must be wary of being in Extremespeed range and they must all be afraid of Substitute variants.

 

[viol and bass]

I think SubCoil with Toxic deserves a set. It sets up on sooooo much. Ferro, Toxapex, Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mantine, Tapu Bulu.... And there's essentially nothing that cockblocks it entirely since everything immune to Toxic is weak to Thousand Arrows which has no immunities. It's frankly almost absurd and absolutely deserves a set.

 

[Vague]

Coil deserves it's own set in general since its a pretty great sweeper on bulkier teams and SubCoil is pretty good so is RestTalk. Idk what the most optimal EV spread is though since I don't usually run speed as it doesn't necessarily need it atm and good benchmarks take a huge amount of bulk away.

 

[Colonel M]

Going to be that guy (with Littlelucario backing me up on this one).

I dont think the first set should have a mention of Toxic at all outside of Moves at best. There are so many better moves to consider before Toxic of all things. Quagsire and Pyukumuku (outside of lower end latter) isnt too common atm.

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance + Substitute
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Outrage / ExtremeSpeed / Iron Tail
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Jolly
evs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe

What I did was hit Zygarde with 295 Speed before a Dragon Dance. This is the magic number to outspeed base Pheromosa assuming no Speed Boosts on her Speed once Zygarde has a DD on its belt. Outrage is basically for extra power when needed (case-by-case basis). Bold Tangrowth can take 3 hits, but Ill also mention another thing in a minute here with Zygarde. ExtremeSpeed is a utility option that can also help Zygarde go for a slower tankier set if necessary. This can be used to also beat out Phero on the revenge if absolutely necessary.

Iron Tail is more of a lure option. +1 Iron Tail does >60% on max HP Tapu Bulu. It also does a fair amount of damage to Unaware Clefable - meaning if Clefable isn't too healthy (say above 80%) it cant safely switch in.

Sludge Wave and Toxic are, at best, Moves options. I concede Sludge Wave has uses against non-AV Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, but those are the only circumstances you'll really consider it. Maybe Celebi if defensive sets got popular but STAB Outrage likely deals more in that circumstance.

The remainder EVs are put into HP to help keep Zygarde 50% bulky. Max Speed and Attack are fine though, so unless QC really wants it I wont fight you to change EVs.

That's all I have so far. I'll come back when things are more finished or if there is something you might have missed. Or I.

 

[Colonel M]

I would prefer Sleep Talk first as it gives Zygarde's team a sleep absorber.

Toxic is okay. Pyu and Quag are rare, but keeping Clefable and Tangrowth crippled is worthwhile. Also kind of helps in situations in 1v1s against Mantine that pack Haze.

 

[jstoward]

Sub coil seems to be the most powerful set at the moment, considering how little speed and how much natural bulk it has.

Personally the set that's worked for me most is:

Zygarde Leftovers
Ability: aura break
Evs: 248 hp 252 attack 8 special defense
Adamant nature
-Substitute
-Coil
-Thousand arrows
-extreme speed

Basically, make sure substitute is up as much as possible, after a couple of coils, a lot of physical attacks won't even break the sub, so setup is rather easy. Thousand arrows hits almost everything for neutral or super effective damage, and extreme speed is used to clean off faster foes that could otherwise be a threat such as pheromosa. While it lacks the recovery level of rest talk sets, sub coil still gives it enough bulk to not really need it

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Sub coil seems to be the most powerful set at the moment, considering how little speed and how much natural bulk it has.

Personally the set that's worked for me most is:

Zygarde Leftovers
Ability: aura break
Evs: 248 hp 252 attack 8 special defense
Adamant nature
-Substitute
-Coil
-Thousand arrows
-extreme speed

Basically, make sure substitute is up as much as possible, after a couple of coils, a lot of physical attacks won't even break the sub, so setup is rather easy. Thousand arrows hits almost everything for neutral or super effective damage, and extreme speed is used to clean off faster foes that could otherwise be a threat such as pheromosa. While it lacks the recovery level of rest talk sets, sub coil still gives it enough bulk to not really need it

This is my favorite set. I would like to add that if you want to deal with Ferrothorn more easily, using Max HP and no Speed investment (the suggested spread of 56 EVs gives Ferrothorn a 1/8 chance of killing a 1+ Def sub, which Gyro Ball has a 141 base power at no investment.)

 

[viol and bass]

This is my favorite set. I would like to add that if you want to deal with Ferrothorn more easily, using Max HP and no Speed investment (the suggested spread of 56 EVs gives Ferrothorn a 1/8 chance of killing a 1+ Def sub, which Gyro Ball has a 141 base power at no investment.)

Ferrothorn usage has dropped precipitously from what I'm told, so it's probably not worth dropping the speed EVs, which really come in handy on SubCoil. Anyway, I really believe Toxic is the best move for the last slot. Extremespeed is primarily a revenge killing tool, but since Zygarde's piss weak without setup and revenge killing isn't this set's purpose, I don't particularly see the appeal. Toxic on the other hand is a really powerful tool in combination with Thousand Arrows, as essentiailly everything immune to Toxic is weak to Thousand Arrows. Like, SubCoil Zygarde's entire purpose is to set up on defensive or weakish offensive threats like Alomomola, Chansey, Mandibuzz, Mantine, Quagsire, Rotom-W, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, defensive Celesteela, etc. Toxic is just more useful against the crowd of mons SubCoil Zygarde is meant to be setting up on.

 

[Albacore]

Groundnium-Z defenitely deserves at least a mention on the DD set, the ability to break past grounded fatmons like Tapu Fini, Hippowdon, MZor, Tankchomp, Ferrothorn etc can't really be underestimated, especially since that's exactly the kind of stuff people send in against Zygarde in the hopes of beating it. Also lets you eat up Knok Offs better, for what it's worth.

Not sure why ESpeed isn't the main slash for the 4th slot on the DD set, it's a great tool vs stuff like Scarf Pheromosa, Weavile and priority in general, and also lets you revenge kill stuff in a pinch. Zygarde isn't exactly strong unboosted, but ESpeed still has enough BP to KO revenge kill weakened stuff (for reference, it hits exactly as hard as Azumarill's Aqua Jet assuming same nature/items, and harder than Weavile's Ice Shard), and it's a huge selling point so idk why you'd miss out on that.

Sludge Wave only seems worth it if you run LO honestly, without it Zygarde can't get the damage it needs to on Bulu and Tang to make it a viable option.

 

[Hootie]

Take Azelfie please get this QC ready in 48 hours or this will be reassigned.

 

[Panda]

Since the Sub Coil set is prone to phazing from bulky Pokemon that are not immediately threatened by Thousand Arrows (Hippowdon, Tank-Chomp, Suicune, Mandibuzz), I think the following set variation is worth mentioning:

move 1: Coil
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute / Rest
move 4: Dragon Tail
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Careful
evs: 200 HP / 156 SpDef / 152 Spe

The Speed EVs specifically allow Zygarde to outspeed the 92 Spe Tank-Chomp variant, while also making sure it gets the jump on +Speed base 70 'mons (Bisharp). Just about every other Pokemon that commonly runs a phazing move is either outsped or takes a huge hit from Thousand Arrows.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Go nuts

 

[Colonel M]

I forgot one thing - Coil really needs ExtremeSpeed in the slashes.

I also would propose considering Groundium Z as an item for the first set. Zygarde's Attack is kind of underwhelming and the Tectonic Rage is nice if you need to bypass something that isnt immune to Ground (think Mega Venusaur if it has taken damage prior to DDing). Also would consider mentioning Life Orb in Set Comments for just giving Zygarde immediate power when not using Substitute. +1 Thousand Arrows can KO Latios about 40% of the time with Life Orb in the equation.

For Coil Substitute and ExtremeSpeed should be the first slashes.

 

[PK Gaming]

Overview

* Lack of reliable recovery and status removal leaves it prone to being weakened down fast.

I don't really like this line because Zygarde a sweeper first and foremost and these aren't cons that are intrinsic to it. It commonly runs Substitute and has decent Speed so it's actually pretty good at avoiding Status.

The Overview needs to stress just how batshit insane of a sweeper Zygarde is. It is incredibly good at getting your opponent in these checkmate scenarios where they're straight up screwed. As a con though, you should mention that Zygarde is somewhat reliant on team matchup and if its unable to set up due (they have Toxic Spikes, hard counters, etc) it's usefulness in the match is drastically lowered.

SubCoil

The Coil set needs to be changed because the current one isn't great and it needs to be placed in front of Dragon Dance

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed

ExtremeSpeed is pretty much mandatory because it makes Zygarde sooooo much more effective against offense. It can set up on bulky Pokemon and slam faster Pokemon try to revenge KO it (Pheromosa, Greninja, etc). To get an idea of how the set functions, watch this match. Currently unsure of the EV spread, but this seems like a safe estimate for now.

Usage Tips

* Zygarde should be brought onto Pokemon like Toxapex and Chansey and set up a Substitute immediately. From there Zygarde should choose to set up to clean the rest of the team or cripple the opponent with an attack or Toxic.

This is the wrong way of using Zygarde. Zygarde is your trump card, it's your win condition... You don't switch it into battle recklessly since it risks eat status. You need to be patient; choosing to bring it on a near guaranteed switch on your opponents part, choiced Electric-type moves, via U-turn/Volt Switch, defensive Pokemon who can't harm you or even a revenge KO are the best ways of switching into battle. You rarely ever want to directly switch it into other Pokemon unless there's cause for it.

Zygarde can win the 1v1 against Tapu-Bulu if Zygarde has a Substitute up and hits Tapu-Bulu on the switch. Otherwise try to not let Zygarde waste too much HP setting up Substitute when itll just get removed.

Not if it uses Horn Leech. This isn't much of a Usage Tip either so i'd remove it. For Dragon Dance, you need to tell the player how they intend to use it. It can act as an early breaker by weakening walls OR it can sweep it in the lategame. How and when the player decides to set up is dependent on the match

You also need to tell the player what Zygarde sets up on. Pokemon like Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, bulky Mega Scizor, Heatran, bulky Excadrill, Magnezone, Dugtrio are prime targets for Zygarde. You set up a Substitute after they switch, and opt to boost or even attack depending on the switch in. In some cases, you should start setting up Coil right away against opposing set up sweepers. Finally, note that Zygarde is a Pokemon that functions both in the early and lategame. It really comes down to whether you can find an opportunity to set up.

While Zygarde functions on all teams, I think it works really well on offense teams where the majority of your team just wears opponents and Zygarde just comes in to clean up lategame.

Team Options

* Poison-types like Nihilego, Nidoking, and Gengar all help versus random Fairy- and Grass-types that could be a nuisance in Zygarde's way and remove Toxic Spikes that would otherwise limit Zygarde's ability to set up Substitutes.

Zygarde matches up pretty well against Fairy-types barring Tapu Bulu. These Pokemon are still useful for the Grass-types however, and I'd point out that they matchup pretty well against Buzzwole, which checks this.

* Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela help Zygarde by checking various Fairy- and Ice-types for Zygarde. Zygarde also gives them a useful Fire-type switch in.

Mention Genesect since it has U-turn.

Entry hazard partners need to be mentioned.

Dragon Dance

Dragon Dance should look like this:

name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Iron Tail / Outrage / Substitute
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
ability: Aura Break
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Substitute isn't mandatory since this set is more fast paced than the previous one (when you find that beautiful moment to DD in the lategame, you're gonna wish you had another attacking move instead of Substitute). The first 3 moves are non-negotiable, but the last slot is a tossup; Iron Tail's pretty nice against Fairies and especially Tapu Bulu, Outrage is nice for smacking ground resists like Buzzwole and Tangrowth. Substitute is good for avoiding status, setting up on certain Pokemon, etc.

You mention that Jolly and Speed EVs allow to outspace as much as possible, but what exactly are you speeding? You need to give examples. Scarfers in Zygarde's Speed tier, Kyurem-B before a boost, etc.

Usage Tips

* Zygarde should be brought onto Pokemon like Toxapex and Chansey and set up a Substitute immediately. From there Zygarde should choose to set up to clean the rest of the team or cripple the opponent with an attack or Toxic.

See above

Team Options

* Steel-types like Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela help Zygarde by checking various Fairy- and Ice-types for Zygarde. Zygarde also gives them a useful Fire-type switch in.

See above

Try not to have the exact same Usage Tips and Team Options for the sets.

 

[Gary]

Personally I don't think E-Speed is mandatory at all on the Coil set. While it's a very nice tool vs offense, Zygarde needs quite a bit of boosts under its belt especially with no Attack invest, to actually start doing much versus it. The Sub Coil set excels on setting up versus fatter teams because of their inability to consistently break its Subs. The biggest issue with that set is that fat Grass-types still don't really have much of an issue just kinda sitting there and taking hits, and if you run into something like Growth it still has the potential to beat you 1v1, especially if it packs HP Ice. Lando-T is also a bit annoying sometimes especially with HP Ice variants starting to pop on here and there, whereas Toxic can heavily cripple it and prevents it from being able to tank Thousand Arrows + residual. Bulu is also an issue without Toxic, as it can break your Subs even at +1, and Zygarde is basically a free switch into it. There's also many others, such as Tapu Fini, opposing Zygarde, Slowbro, and Buzzwole. It just turns Zygarde into a huge problem for so many fatter builds, and while it can't do a ton versus offense, it's still very hard to revenge kill due to its insane bulk and a +1 Thousand Arrows will be doing a lot to plenty of Pokemon found on offense.

E-Speed deserves a slash no doubt, but I really think that Toxic is a much better option on Sub Coil and makes it so much harder to deal with. Both the DD set and Coil sets accomplish different things, and I don't like how the Coil set tries to take on both balance and offensive teams when it's just kinda stuck in the middle. I'd prefer the Coil set focuses on punishing bulkier builds with Toxic while the DD set is excels more at dealing with offense because of its Speed boost and priority.

 

[PK Gaming]

Personally I don't think E-Speed is mandatory at all on the Coil set. While it's a very nice tool vs offense, Zygarde needs quite a bit of boosts under its belt especially with no Attack invest, to actually start doing much versus it. The Sub Coil set excels on setting up versus fatter teams because of their inability to consistently break its Subs. The biggest issue with that set is that fat Grass-types still don't really have much of an issue just kinda sitting there and taking hits, and if you run into something like Growth it still has the potential to beat you 1v1, especially if it packs HP Ice. Lando-T is also a bit annoying sometimes especially with HP Ice variants starting to pop on here and there, whereas Toxic can heavily cripple it and prevents it from being able to tank Thousand Arrows + residual. Bulu is also an issue without Toxic, as it can break your Subs even at +1, and Zygarde is basically a free switch into it. There's also many others, such as Tapu Fini, opposing Zygarde, Slowbro, and Buzzwole. It just turns Zygarde into a huge problem for so many fatter builds, and while it can't do a ton versus offense, it's still very hard to revenge kill due to its insane bulk and a +1 Thousand Arrows will be doing a lot to plenty of Pokemon found on offense.

E-Speed deserves a slash no doubt, but I really think that Toxic is a much better option on Sub Coil and makes it so much harder to deal with. Both the DD set and Coil sets accomplish different things, and I don't like how the Coil set tries to take on both balance and offensive teams when it's just kinda stuck in the middle. I'd prefer the Coil set focuses on punishing bulkier builds with Toxic while the DD set is excels more at dealing with offense because of its Speed boost and priority.

Yeah "mandatory" might have been too strong of a word, but I disagree with SubCoil solely excelling at against fatter teams. It's really effective against balance and can run a train on offense if it gets that one set up opportunity. Toxic is good for screwing the Pokemon you mentioned, but they're comparatively rare in comparison to how common offense is (also Tapu Fini can't usually be Toxic'd). You don't even need to accumulate that many boosts to start reliably taking out faster Pokemon, since a one-two combination of Thousand Arrows + Espeed is usually pretty effective and at +2 you start OHKOing stuff like Pheremosa, severely weakening Greninja, etc. Also once you set up on their pivot it's pretty much over.

Toxic definitely has a ton of merit, but just going from personal experience / watching top players on the ladder, Espeed is more appealing in the current metagame.

Like, check out this user's replays, he solely runs Coil Zygarde with Espeed and it's saved him in quite a few scenarios.

 

[Seth Vilo]

For the SubCoil set, I would like to recommend a different EV spread of 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe. This spread does a couple neat things. The biggest thing it does is allow Zygarde's Subs - which have 104 HP each - to never be broken by a STAB Foul Play, which can only do a maximum of 103 damage. In addition to making you slightly more physically bulky, you don't trade off much special bulk either. Below are some comparison calcs:

Vs New EV Spread:

• 0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 76-90 (18.2 - 21.5%)
  
• 0 SpA Mew Psyshock (90 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (20.1 - 23.7%)

Vs Old EV Spread:

• 0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 73-87 (17.9 - 21.3%)
  
• 0 SpA Mew Psyshock (90 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (20.6 - 24.3%)

In hitting the STAB Foul Play benchmark, you become ~0.5% more physically bulky, while only losing ~0.3% of your special bulk. In addition, you also hit a Leftovers number (number divisible by 16 + 1), so that's neat.

Yay Zyggy!

 

[lydian]

For the SubCoil set, I would like to recommend a different EV spread of 240 HP / 212 SpD / 56 Spe. This spread does a couple neat things. The biggest thing it does is allow Zygarde's Subs - which have 104 HP each - to never be broken by a STAB Foul Play, which can only do a maximum of 103 damage. In addition to making you slightly more physically bulky, you don't trade off much special bulk either. Below are some comparison calcs:

Vs New EV Spread:

• 0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 240 HP / 212+ SpD Zygarde: 76-90 (18.2 - 21.5%)
  
• 0 SpA Mew Psyshock (90 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (20.1 - 23.7%)

Vs Old EV Spread:

• 0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 73-87 (17.9 - 21.3%)
  
• 0 SpA Mew Psyshock (90 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 84-99 (20.6 - 24.3%)

In hitting the STAB Foul Play benchmark, you become ~0.5% more physically bulky, while only losing ~0.3% of your special bulk. In addition, you also hit a Leftovers number (number divisible by 16 + 1), so that's neat.

Yay Zyggy!

This is a pretty cool spread, but when you use Coil, wouldn't +1 Zygarde's attack make Foul Play stronger and break the sub?

 

[boltsandbombers]

This is a pretty cool spread, but when you use Coil, wouldn't +1 Zygarde's attack make Foul Play stronger and break the sub?

Coil increases attack and defense, so no.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright so after some discussion we concluded these should be the sets in the Zygarde analysis:

- SubCoil
- Bulky DD
- Offensive DD

SubCoil:

name: SubCoil
move 1: Coil
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Sustitute
move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Careful
evs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe

QC seems to go two ways with Toxic vs ExtremeSpeed as predicted. I'll let the QC members decide which to take precedence, but for the most part the set should look exactly like this.

BulkyDD:

name: Bulky Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute
move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break

ExtremeSpeed should be emphasized as the superior option for the set. Toxic is kind of an "okay" way of bypassing bulkier mons like Tangrowth / Hippo.

I'll post the EVs if P2 will allow it.

Offensive DD:

name: Offensive Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: ExtremeSpeed
move 4: Iron Tail / Outrage
item: Life Orb
ability: Aura Break
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

This one is kind of going against the pages on my book, but always always Jolly and max Speed. Do not make Adamant a slash because you want to, at worst, tie Scarf Tapu Lele since ExtremeSpeed is nullified by Psychic Terrain. Life Orb is mandatory on the set after considering the 100 Attack stat being mediocre honestly.

Groundium Z in Set Details. It has a small perk of letting Zygarde out-muscle some of the bulkier Pokemon like Hippowdon and Tapu Fini, but mention the loss of power for its other moves and outside of the one-time burst is usually not worth it.

This leaves:

- RestTalk in OO. Mention it works with both Coil and Dragon Dance.
- Dragon Tail for the SubCoil set as it allows Zygarde a method of fighting against psuedo-hazing (Skarmory Whirlwind, Hippowdon Whirlwind).
- Sludge Wave really should be the last thing mentioned here.
- Torn on mentioning Glare since it was on the analysis from XY but I think that's just a relic set of "well Zygarde is shit so we have to think of things that it does that no one else does".

There's other things, such as the questionable Checks and Counters. One example - it's super weird that you mentioned Clefable quite a bit in the analysis but don't even list it as a potential Check / Counter. Another example is no mention of Hippowdon - while rare and potentially screwed up by Toxic Whirlwind makes any setup attempt with Zygarde null and void.

Also make Team Options more unique please. It's literally a copy / paste. I'm okay with re-mentioning Pokemon, but let's at least spice it up a bit.

 

[Alphanex20]

With those steels in the Team Options, I think you should mention Shed Shell variants of them (especially ferro and Celesteela) since they can lure in Magnezone--whom Zygarde gets a free setup on and blocks Volt Switch. With the Coil one, even a specs Flash Cannon doesn't 2HKO (and you can always outspeed Mag with literally 4 more speed EVs).

 

[mulgokizary]

Alright so after some discussion we concluded these should be the sets in the Zygarde analysis:

- SubCoil
- Bulky DD
- Offensive DD

SubCoil:

name: SubCoil
move 1: Coil
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Sustitute
move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break
nature: Careful
evs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe

QC seems to go two ways with Toxic vs ExtremeSpeed as predicted. I'll let the QC members decide which to take precedence, but for the most part the set should look exactly like this.

BulkyDD:

name: Bulky Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Thousand Arrows
move 3: Substitute
move 4: ExtremeSpeed / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Aura Break

ExtremeSpeed should be emphasized as the superior option for the set. Toxic is kind of an "okay" way of bypassing bulkier mons like Tangrowth / Hippo.

I'll post the EVs if P2 will allow it.

Hi, how are you doing?

I don't know if these are the final sets, but I have a few nitpicks. I don't want to upset the pecking order or disagree with someone much more knowledgeable than me, so feel free to shoot any of these ideas down. My two problems are, first, the fact that I think you guys are severely underrating Toxic by saying that ExtremeSpeed is more valuable on a DD set, and second, the EV spread for the Coil set being suboptimal. I'll try to argue both points succinctly.

To me, the biggest strength of Zygarde as a setup sweeper is that it only needs to run one attack to hit every Pokemon in the game. This, in tandem with its amazing bulk, makes its subtox sets feel like using a cheat code. Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, and Tapu Fini are the three main Pokemon that give boosting Zygarde headaches. Then you have your unaware users, Quag and Clef (I think pyukumuku is outclassed here.). Hippo, too, but nobody is running it right now. Zygarde can sweep through seemingly every other Pokemon in the game, and its bulk in combination with Substitute is good enough for it to be able to take nearly any hit in order to do it. Because of this, I feel like toxic is an invaluable option to have on any Zygarde set and is as close to optimal as you can get. It makes Zygarde a veritable swiss army knife and makes sure that it's useful in every matchup you have. Whether it be luring and 1v1ing the opposing grass in order to break through the enemy team or 6-0ing every stall team (Keep it mind that without taunt gyara, zygarde toxic stalls whimsicott and eventually wins) under the sun with no counterplay, this is Zygarde's flagship move and what differentiates it from every other DDer in the game. In comparison, I don't even understand why you need ESpeed on a SubDD set since Extreme Speed can't hit Tapu Lele, a common scarfed revenger of +1 Zygarde, and you outspeed everything in the metagame except for a Scarfed Pheromosa at +2 (with a decent EV spread).

My second nitpick is the spread.

+1 0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

A zero attack +1 coil or DD zygarde cannot break through a haze toxapex that runs Black Sludge. Alternating haze and recover, they PP stall you and make it so that you can't do anything else for the entire game, barring lucky crits. Given that one of Zygarde's strengths is its ability to 6-0 stall teams, this is really worrying. SubCoil and SubDD Zygarde need to run some attack investment in order to break through this extemely common Pokemon. I'll let you guys decide how much attack is optimal since you're the experts. I also find 60 speed just to avoid speed ties with Magnezone (since HP fire now doesn't decrease speed) to be a worthwhile use of 4 points. It's a a very minimal consideration and you'll never know when it will come in handy.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to a fruitful discussion!

 

[Colonel M]

I can respond to more later including a possible better spread on the first set and continuing discussion with p2 to see what EV spread to use.

To refute your min Attack point:

252 Atk Zygarde Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 102-122 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I guess what I argue makes this difficult is that Toxapex is coming in either during Sub or Coil / DD. This means that in situations like +1 Toxa still has to make a dangerous choice. Furthermore:

+1 252 Atk Zygarde Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 152-182 (50 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can maybe 2HKO in this scenario, but we're assuming some rather high rolls in the process too on top of maximizing Attack - which takes away from Zygarde's bulk.

 

[mulgokizary]

I can respond to more later including a possible better spread on the first set and continuing discussion with p2 to see what EV spread to use.

To refute your min Attack point:

252 Atk Zygarde Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 102-122 (33.5 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I guess what I argue makes this difficult is that Toxapex is coming in either during Sub or Coil / DD. This means that in situations like +1 Toxa still has to make a dangerous choice. Furthermore:

+1 252 Atk Zygarde Land's Wrath vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 152-182 (50 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can maybe 2HKO in this scenario, but we're assuming some rather high rolls in the process too on top of maximizing Attack - which takes away from Zygarde's bulk.

I am extremely confused at how you got these damage calcs. Here's 252 atk Zygarde vs. 252/168+ Toxapex:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-505733321

My calculator says this:
252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Toxapex: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That is a guaranteed 2hko after haze.

If Toxapex comes in on Coil or Sub from a 0 atk Zyg, it can safely heal haze and heal those off next turn. It is a misplay to not go to Toxapex immediately on a bulky Zygarde if you're playing stall.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Colonel M]

I spent a good 5 minutes looking and p2 mentioned I had it set to Doubles, so disregard my calc. Good catch on that calc.