This system makes a lot of sense to me. Hopefully it gets more attention and a mod can comment on it.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
This system makes a lot of sense to me. Hopefully it gets more attention and a mod can comment on it.
Tournament reqs have been tried, but ultimately are unfair as everyone else has to ladder so many games and the tournaments are frequently played in metagames weeks or months prior to the current one.
There really is no fair way to do reqs or frame suspects beyond on-time qualification via ladder.
What about the Alt hitting top 100 even if it doesn't make GXE requirements? I still think that's a decently fair way to do it.
Top anything is arbitrary as is (why not top 50 or top 150 etc.), but also it’s really conceivable to hit 18s or 19s by trading wins 90% of the time and then picking a window where you can snipe people or account for a smaller pool of what’s being used at non-peak times if you really want. GXE is clearly better suited for suspects than.
The reason I choose top 100 is because that's the cutoff for qualified players on Surveys. I figured if you're qualified on a survey you should be able to be qualified for voting.
wasn't it top 250 or am i going insane?
Same with garg tbh. That thing gets constant use and prep against in SPLs but ladder usage reflects tiering so it has suffered on the tiering rung as a result.
I really disagree with this personally. The survey qualification is loose and surveys themselves aren’t binding. This also ignores the fact that opinions and metagames shift during suspect periods while surveys take place prior usually. Finally, there’s been a push to make surveys less frequent and qualifications more strict recently from a lot of people, so that would make this entirely moot.
There should be no official or formal connection between the two.
it's always obnoxious unless it's on my side of the field. then it's the best and most awesome form of speed control in any singles format ever
they didn't even have power herb i have no clue what they were doing
Scale shot contrary serperior sure is one of the sets of all time
Is it worth it... With Glare maybe.
Was this on purpose?
Breaking Swipe Serperior is the new meta.
I'm not sure about the set. Tera Blast Stellar only works because of Contrary. The problem is that Contrary would reverse the purpose of Scale Shot to lowering speed and raising defense. A slow sweeper isn't really what you want.
Traditionally, the best thing about physical Serperior is access to Coil. So you could maybe have Coil and Scale Shot on a non-Contrary set. But then there is no point in running Tera Blast unless you are desperate for coverage or Tera Fire. Aqua Tail could give you sort of Waterpon like coverage but with Scale Shot to hit Dragons instead of Play Rough. But I don't know. At that point maybe just use Waterpon? Most of the sets from that post didn't seem that serious anyways. As a lover of jank myself, I can't really fault the attempt too much.
Idk man, I just slapped it on because contrary gives it a defense boost. I probably would have chosen body slam, but idk it's funny so I'm going to go with it.
They are meant to be off meta sets that can somewhat work, I did test them all on ladder to make sure they work. Sometimes I had really cool ideas that unfortunately did not pan out to work in practice. It was more of a fun experiment, for example dual screens ghold is technically great because you are immune to taunt.
On another topic, I am not sure Tera will be remaining on the next survey and I think we are approaching a point where an outright ban may be out of the question. I’m not ruling anything out entirely and even things like Tera Blast have seen occasional spikes in support.
The support for an outright ban it is too low, now consistently falling below 30% in favor. Never say never, but we are at a point where it’s best we focus on the current metagame and not something like this given relative support.
The support for an outright ban it is too low, now consistently falling below 30% in favor. Never say never, but we are at a point where it’s best we focus on the current metagame and not something like this given relative support.
That does make sense. I think the only time it made sense to do a second Tera suspect would have been in place of the Kingambit suspect test before the Teal Mask dropped. The support for banning Tera has long since faded. There's no use in beating a dead horse.
Shifting to another topic as well: I find the pace we are at right now a bit more sustainable than the breakneck pace of the DLC1 metagame.
We have a longer time between surveys, extra weeks of breathing room between suspects, and still plenty of action and data compiled to affirm or refute any council thoughts.
I think there has been a ton of trial-and-error with tiering this generation. Being honest: our system wasn’t intended to keep up with constant releases across the first entire year of a generation. Our system also wasn’t accustom to the impact something like Tera would have on our game either.
We have shown good adaptation by shifting the way in which we react and the way in which we think sometimes. Quicker suspects (9-10 days as opposed to a firm 14), regular surveys at some points (between every suspect during rapid releases), less frequent surveys at others (slowing down now to every 6 weeks or 2 months when we can take our time more), more caution surrounding certain quickbans (it’s been a trip trying to fully grasp community perception and we are still learning here), and so on. Just a matter of accepting there’s always room for our tiering to grow and doing our best to keep an open mind.
We have a longer time between surveys, extra weeks of breathing room between suspects, and still plenty of action and data compiled to affirm or refute any council thoughts.
I think there has been a ton of trial-and-error with tiering this generation. Being honest: our system wasn’t intended to keep up with constant releases across the first entire year of a generation. Our system also wasn’t accustom to the impact something like Tera would have on our game either.
We have shown good adaptation by shifting the way in which we react and the way in which we think sometimes. Quicker suspects (9-10 days as opposed to a firm 14), regular surveys at some points (between every suspect during rapid releases), less frequent surveys at others (slowing down now to every 6 weeks or 2 months when we can take our time more), more caution surrounding certain quickbans (it’s been a trip trying to fully grasp community perception and we are still learning here), and so on. Just a matter of accepting there’s always room for our tiering to grow and doing our best to keep an open mind.
Although my "enjoyable" level is minimal, I don't blame the council for anything, it's been hard work and the community itself differs in several aspects and everything is ok about that.
I can only mention that dropping Magearna, Roaring Moon and suspecting Gliscor instead of Gholdengo in dlc1 were my least favorite actions.
I think I've already knocked my King off the board but I hope I'm wrong.
From a positive point of view, it can't get any worse than it already is.
I can only mention that dropping Magearna, Roaring Moon and suspecting Gliscor instead of Gholdengo in dlc1 were my least favorite actions.
I think I've already knocked my King off the board but I hope I'm wrong.
From a positive point of view, it can't get any worse than it already is.
letting regieleki into the tier when home dropped is up there. Roaring Moon was never dropped during DLC1 he just got a new move, you might be thinking of baxcalibur
Bax didn't get dropped from Ubers, he was banned in DLC1. I think they might be talking about Moon in this DLC.
What's funny about Eleki is two things.
1. The nerfed the ability and despite us not knowing at the time, it probably would still be banned.
2. They didn't nerf regidrago's similar ability, despite them being counterparts, which has never happened before I think with nerfs. They literally did nerf zamazenta for zacian's crimes, so the doggo ain't having a good day.
actually, this was a mistake that especially should not be brought up in a post about how Smogon tiering is adapting to DLC
bluntly, DLC demands more quickbans to create an actually playable meta faster. Period
to say that Smogon has adapted when we are now 0-2 at good DLC1 metas, with most people I know agreeing that both Isle of Armor and Teal Mask being dogshit metagames that were the worst of each respective generation, shows no growth in adapting to DLC. Both generations are terrible failures in adapting to DLC; basically just giving up and allowing DLC1 to be terrible and hoping playerbase just rides out the storm to DLC2.
the adaptation that has actually occurred is adapting to a world where social media and youtubers are constantly following Smogon at a bigger scale than ever, and thus has created a constant flow of feedback. one that particularly is generally uninformed, especially around tiering, and has thus put far more questioning and a higher level of proof required for actions that otherwise are fairly normal
IMO, the community failed with Tera if it ends like this. Or if they finally decide years later that it was problematic. Either way, it simply isn't good for balance. I know this is an unpopular opinion. But if you play the wait and see game until many of the folks who were against it are no longer invested, it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. To be clear, I'm not even sure there would have been enough support even without that given how generally popular the mechanic is. It's just that waiting as long as we did doesn't help that. I will say less since the rest all been discussed to death before.
Either way, gen 9 has insane power creep and is nearly impossible to tier from a balance standpoint. The new trend of pay to win DLCs don't help, either. The DLC metas have been... interesting. Regardless of what we think of all the decisions made, many wouldn't find the meta enjoyable because GF gave us quite an evolving mess this gen.
Personally, I can't really even disagree with most of the decisions made. Outside of Tera and the Gliscor ban, I don't think there was anything I have strongly disagreed with. I didn't love the sleep decision, but I understand it and am glad Iron Valiant is still in the tier. I guess I was against banning Cyclizar over Shed Tail and Houndstone over Last Respects because it seemed obvious to me the moves were the problem. That played out the same way in the long run anyways. Really reaching the bottom of the barrel now. Not sure there was really anything else. Like I'm not sure there was a single even slightly wrong pokemon ban, in my personal opinion, that I haven't mentioned. If anything, we need more bans after Gouging Fire because we are keeping Tera.
I say all this to say gen 9 is rough. Smogon is in a no win situation with this one.
Either way, gen 9 has insane power creep and is nearly impossible to tier from a balance standpoint. The new trend of pay to win DLCs don't help, either. The DLC metas have been... interesting. Regardless of what we think of all the decisions made, many wouldn't find the meta enjoyable because GF gave us quite an evolving mess this gen.
Personally, I can't really even disagree with most of the decisions made. Outside of Tera and the Gliscor ban, I don't think there was anything I have strongly disagreed with. I didn't love the sleep decision, but I understand it and am glad Iron Valiant is still in the tier. I guess I was against banning Cyclizar over Shed Tail and Houndstone over Last Respects because it seemed obvious to me the moves were the problem. That played out the same way in the long run anyways. Really reaching the bottom of the barrel now. Not sure there was really anything else. Like I'm not sure there was a single even slightly wrong pokemon ban, in my personal opinion, that I haven't mentioned. If anything, we need more bans after Gouging Fire because we are keeping Tera.
I say all this to say gen 9 is rough. Smogon is in a no win situation with this one.