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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I don't think monotype trainers are inherently easier than trainers without a type specialisation in casual play. If you play on Switch mode (or, in SV, if you don't actively rebel against it being forced on you) then trainers with a diverse roster are at least as easy as type specialists, because you can just pivot into your strongest matchup for free every time you score a KO. A duotype team made with the same design sensibilities Game Freak uses for its monotype teams could end up being even easier to handle, because your primary counter for each type has half as many threats to handle.
The fact that most specialists are pushovers is a consequence of limited AI, overly conservative roster+moveset choices, and the unrivalled power of setup/snowball tactics. Theoretically, monotype teams can present a unique threat, making use of stacked synergies and surprise move choices to break through your one or two conventional checks and put you on the back foot, but the games are too eager to reward the player for basic knowledge of type matchups, so having one Pokemon with SE STAB is almost always enough.
Ultimately, I think one of the big problems with difficulty in Pokemon is that the games don't do enough to make losing feel like a routine part of gameplay. The games are easy, so we expect to win every battle, which means the games can never get noticeably more challenging without making the player feel like a failure if they end up struggling.
A related problem is that there isn't actually very much in-battle strategising in single-player Pokemon, so if you ever do find yourself backed into a corner, there's rarely an opportunity to pivot strategies or mount a comeback outside of heal spam or a game-warping mechanic like Dynamax or affection procs. If the player is caught by surprise (say, because a monotype team had an effective answer for their supposed counter), the eventual loss feels both inevitable and slightly unfair ("how was I supposed to know??"). If Game Freak ever did try and design a truly challenging Pokemon campaign, I think they'd either have to ramp up how much info you could glean about each significant trainer before battling them or they'd have to thoroughly normalise 'losing and trying again' as a pathway to success.
The fact that most specialists are pushovers is a consequence of limited AI, overly conservative roster+moveset choices, and the unrivalled power of setup/snowball tactics. Theoretically, monotype teams can present a unique threat, making use of stacked synergies and surprise move choices to break through your one or two conventional checks and put you on the back foot, but the games are too eager to reward the player for basic knowledge of type matchups, so having one Pokemon with SE STAB is almost always enough.
Ultimately, I think one of the big problems with difficulty in Pokemon is that the games don't do enough to make losing feel like a routine part of gameplay. The games are easy, so we expect to win every battle, which means the games can never get noticeably more challenging without making the player feel like a failure if they end up struggling.
A related problem is that there isn't actually very much in-battle strategising in single-player Pokemon, so if you ever do find yourself backed into a corner, there's rarely an opportunity to pivot strategies or mount a comeback outside of heal spam or a game-warping mechanic like Dynamax or affection procs. If the player is caught by surprise (say, because a monotype team had an effective answer for their supposed counter), the eventual loss feels both inevitable and slightly unfair ("how was I supposed to know??"). If Game Freak ever did try and design a truly challenging Pokemon campaign, I think they'd either have to ramp up how much info you could glean about each significant trainer before battling them or they'd have to thoroughly normalise 'losing and trying again' as a pathway to success.
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Having to switch to a counter because the opponent put in a Pokémon sufficiently disadvantageous to fight against is a very effective way to discourage snowballing tactics, so there's that at least. If the AI had actual strategic capacity capable of, for example, proactively switching in counters to the current Pokémon out (I.E. the current mon is incapable of a OHKO, but another mon on the team is, so the AI switches to that mon), that'd be another avenue...but the official games are ultimately allergic to difficulty beyond EVs and coverage moves.
Regardless, I would very much strongly disagree with the idea of a diverse team not inherently being more challenging than a monotype team. It is not necessarily going to be the case that the player will have a variety of mons capable of cleanly KOing a diverse range of types (especially typings that only have 1-2 weaknesses), and it is much easier to have a single strong mon sweep a monotype gym than train a full team well enough to counter mons that may very well have SE coverage of their own (I.E. Water types with Ice and Ground moves to counter Grass and Electric types). There is room for monotype teams to be more difficult, such as the described scenario of being stacked enough to power through intended counters, but those would be exceptions, not norms.
Regardless, I would very much strongly disagree with the idea of a diverse team not inherently being more challenging than a monotype team. It is not necessarily going to be the case that the player will have a variety of mons capable of cleanly KOing a diverse range of types (especially typings that only have 1-2 weaknesses), and it is much easier to have a single strong mon sweep a monotype gym than train a full team well enough to counter mons that may very well have SE coverage of their own (I.E. Water types with Ice and Ground moves to counter Grass and Electric types). There is room for monotype teams to be more difficult, such as the described scenario of being stacked enough to power through intended counters, but those would be exceptions, not norms.
Clearly it depends on the specialist type and whatever specific Pokemon is chosen to counter that type (hence, not "inherently" easier). If you're imagining a scenario where the specialist type has too many weaknesses to cover with secondary types and the player's offensively-inclined Pokemon can outspeed and OHKO every opponent with super-effective STAB, then the equivalent diverse team is presumably one where the player can still outrun and OHKO all the Pokemon they do have coverage for (half? two-thirds?) while 2HKOing the rest. Still not a very tough battle!
Where a monotype team can shine is in any scenario besides that one. The specialist trainer could be making use of one of those types you mentioned with only 1-2 weaknesses, perhaps with secondary types or Abilities that neutralise those weaknesses or turn them into immunities. The "single strong Pokemon" the player is using to counter the specialist type might not be quite strong or fast enough to take out its targets without being severely weakened or KOed by moves specifically selected to handle the type's most obvious weaknesses (like those Water-types you mentioned with Ice and Ground moves). If a trainer doesn't have a Pokemon that counters every type, as you propose, then I imagine they'll be especially unlikely to sweep a trainer who specialises in one of the types they haven't accounted for.
A concession I'm happy to make is that it's very hard for a type specialist Champion to be as strong as a Champ with a diverse roster unless their specialist type is very generically strong (basically one of Water/Fairy/Dragon/Steel), because there usually aren't enough Pokemon of each type in a regional Pokedex to avoid having one or two duds (of course, if you knew you were making a specialist Champion, it'd probably behoove you to include enough strong mons of their type to make them a proper threat). Gym Leaders generally don't have this problem because of smaller rosters and a lower power level overall, while postgame trainers tend to have access to more strong mons to fill out the team slots.
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To me, it makes sense flavor-wise as Leaders are type specialists and also supposed to test trainers.
Making them generalists won't solve the problem. Geeta's Champion battle is straight up sad.
People are out here asking to get Monkey Paw'd.
I'm going to ignore the boss designs of this franchise jumping off a cliff, and accept the timeline where they massively improve overnight and are able to deliver on thematic teams like
Does that mean you wanna go through a Stall Gym?
I know y'all just thinking about some gimmicky HO offenses, but y'all forgot Koga and Karen trying to make you break the controller on Stadium 2. We know they'd do it. Again.
Either that, or realistically, we getting sorry ass battles like Champion VeGeeta as the norm, which doesn't fix anything really.
The difficulty issue is real, but what the bosses in this franchise lack is an identity.
I'll always point out Emerald Liza and Tate for pulling up with Xatu, Claydol, Solrock and Lunatone and giving people a Top 2 Mainline Leader battle.
The reason why these bosses suck is because they got no bag. Monotype teams are fine, but you gotta cook. They gotta be built around a theme, a strategy. A bunch of same type mons with a weak TM on all of them is barely cohesive narrative-wise.
Making them generalists won't solve the problem. Geeta's Champion battle is straight up sad.
People are out here asking to get Monkey Paw'd.
I'm going to ignore the boss designs of this franchise jumping off a cliff, and accept the timeline where they massively improve overnight and are able to deliver on thematic teams like
Does that mean you wanna go through a Stall Gym?
I know y'all just thinking about some gimmicky HO offenses, but y'all forgot Koga and Karen trying to make you break the controller on Stadium 2. We know they'd do it. Again.
Either that, or realistically, we getting sorry ass battles like Champion VeGeeta as the norm, which doesn't fix anything really.
The difficulty issue is real, but what the bosses in this franchise lack is an identity.
I'll always point out Emerald Liza and Tate for pulling up with Xatu, Claydol, Solrock and Lunatone and giving people a Top 2 Mainline Leader battle.
The reason why these bosses suck is because they got no bag. Monotype teams are fine, but you gotta cook. They gotta be built around a theme, a strategy. A bunch of same type mons with a weak TM on all of them is barely cohesive narrative-wise.
I honestly don't see the equivalency here when there is a very real possibility of not being able to outpace the entire team and getting 2HKO'd by coverage for every instance the opponent is the faster one. It is much more realistic for a single Pokémon to sweep a monotype team simply by being easier to raise one strong Pokémon compared to a whole team that must be reasonably leveled to take out something that, while weak to their STAB, packs SE coverage. Snowballing is more effective, item spam is more effective, just spamming STAB until everything is KO'd is more effective.
This isn't getting into more complicated strategies like Prankster Reflect/Light Screen changing what would otherwise have been winning matchups into losing ones that can grow more complicated from there, or cheap tricks like Metal Burst, or dangerous buffs like Dragon Dance.
So you make players use a second Pokémon to deal with the 1-2 members of the monotype team that the main counter doesn't have a STAB advantage against? Assuming the main counter couldn't have just snowballed off the first opponent with a buffing move or something.
Like, let's use a team of Water, Water/Flying, Water/Grass, Water/Ground, and Water/Ice. Between two mons with either SE STAB or SE coverage while not being weak to the types they're handling, you're fine. That is a big difference from needing 5-6 different mons to have sufficient coverage, and all of them needing to be able to stand against SE coverage themselves. Alternatively, a mon neutral/resistant to the lead's moves could buff once-twice and sweep with a neutral STAB, again facing opposition from maybe one team member. That is a much less realistic scenario for a team with a larger variety of type coverage and resistances/immunities, where you'll be unlikely to singlehandedly punch through with a single buffed STAB, and the more feasible solution is having several members involved instead of just one.
I mean at the end of the day, it just sounds like a good monotype team just requires two members to fully counter instead of one. With a diverse enough range of weaknesses, you might as well just treat them as if they were a fully diverse team and just have the different team members target the non-overlapping weaknesses as needed.
The AI doesn't cheat in Stadium. I just asked Werster on his livestream (where he's speedrunning Stadium lol) and he confirmed it doesn't. It has the usual Pokemon AI trait where it knows your Pokemon's stats and therefore how much damage all its moves will deal, but I assume we're not counting that because I never hear people complain about it in the mainline games and it's just the easiest way for the AI to function like a human player with good mechanical knowledge.
I don't think making the ai cheat is that bad on princible tbh. The ai will always be at a disavantage because its just an ai, it cannot understand the nuance of the opponents team and its own moves unless youre insane at coding and can waste days on each battle.
i mean, look at rby. the ai cheats, but its not like it made the battles that harder or anything (the jank of gen 1 does that for you tbh LOOOL). if anything, letting your ai know the players move 50% of the time would be great at giving them some edge and make them less exploitable. its not like the main series has insane teams that would crush you if they knew what your move was like some romhacks do
i mean, look at rby. the ai cheats, but its not like it made the battles that harder or anything (the jank of gen 1 does that for you tbh LOOOL). if anything, letting your ai know the players move 50% of the time would be great at giving them some edge and make them less exploitable. its not like the main series has insane teams that would crush you if they knew what your move was like some romhacks do
In what way does the RBY AI cheat?
Justy from Orre would like to know your locationDoes that mean you wanna go through a Stall Gym?
I put it in quotes for a reason :V
But yeah, it's aggressive due to knowing what you have mainly. Which incidentally can mean it IS predictable if you fully know what's going on
Problem is rental moves/mons suck, and the 3 of 6 format randomizes mons chosen, so player variance compared to the opponent can massively affect the flow. Main games the teams and general order are always the same, so it's way easier to plan around
Honestly, GF should experiement with randomized teams as well to piss off runners :P
Monotype is dumb and lame as fuck
Most of the best fights in the series are when the opponent team actually has a variety and feels like an actual trainer at your level.
(Cynthia, Lusamine, Red, Ghetsis, etc.)
even when they aren't that hard, it feels more like you are beating someone who, narratively, is actually at your level rather than just mandated to a type
gym leaders feel like minibosses in every gen. yes, every gen. all of them are easy, even shit like Sinnoh gyms are not far off from Kalos, it's all super easy
alolan totems clear
Most of the best fights in the series are when the opponent team actually has a variety and feels like an actual trainer at your level.
(Cynthia, Lusamine, Red, Ghetsis, etc.)
even when they aren't that hard, it feels more like you are beating someone who, narratively, is actually at your level rather than just mandated to a type
gym leaders feel like minibosses in every gen. yes, every gen. all of them are easy, even shit like Sinnoh gyms are not far off from Kalos, it's all super easy
alolan totems clear
It still works because the point made is about the sets themselves.
Also, Stadium AI doesn't predict your switches and the like, it just has... Good AI.
I was playing challenge cup on St2 the other day and the AI switched out its lead on turn 1. I had legit forgotten you could switch mid-battle, so I was like
These games are giving me brain rot
Challenge cup sets are randomized. The trainers have a theme restriction, but you legit don't know what the actual team will be.
That's still just one battle. Now imagine like 6, 7 and a puzzleJusty from Orre would like to know your location
The AI in RBY chooses its move after the player does. If you switch out, say, a ground type for a water type, the "good AI" trainers would click thunderbolt over blizzard, even though that's obviously a terrible move for the original target.
More than anything, I'd love to see boss trainers switch out more. Since the AI is already calcing it's moves against the player, it shouldn't be too unreasonable for it to calc the player's moves in return and, if it sees that it has a losing matchup, calc the pokemon it has in the back and switch to the one with the best chance of winning. It's nothing too deep, and it wouldn't do much to improve some of the more poorly designed gym leaders, but it'd be a step in the right direction imo.
The strongest AIs have had a version of this in gen 3-4 (I don't know off the top of my head how much it carried forward). It makes the conceit of not having foreknowledge of the player's moves (given modern movepools, I could easily see "assume they have STAB" added) so it relies on the last attack the player used, but the overall concept is there. This AI can switch if they have a mon in reserve with both of the following:
- Resistance or immunity to the last attack the player used
- The ability to hit the player's current mon SE
The good ai in rby cheating is also funny because despite how powerful knowing everythinf the trainer will do is in a vacuum, it's not like they have actual good moves to take advantage of. they're either doing the same move anyway or they're pivoting to a 40 bp dogshit move, which is why the rby ai cheating is more trivia than a fact you have to consider when playing.
its also probably why they downscaled how much the ai can predict you, giving their trainers Good Moves means you start bodying most switch attempts. I think 50%-70% is a good range, but also id put a fail safe where any trainer will predict 100% what you'll do for a turn or two IF the player is just switching back and forth to waste their pp
its also probably why they downscaled how much the ai can predict you, giving their trainers Good Moves means you start bodying most switch attempts. I think 50%-70% is a good range, but also id put a fail safe where any trainer will predict 100% what you'll do for a turn or two IF the player is just switching back and forth to waste their pp
I miss Stadium 2's AI so bad... 
IMO the AI predicting is fair when it makes a reasonable assumption a human would make. Like if the AI has seen different parts of your team, then it can go for "hard reads" but when it's just omniscient it's annoying
Random Battles does have people who will go for those kinds of predicts Turn 2 anyways (you are likely to have a ground immunity, not surprising), but that's still a bit annoying for an AI to do imo
Honestly a fully omniscient AI can at least be analyzed, understood, and exploited. That rewards knowledge and team building skill. Any kind of randomized behavior makes an AI come across as erratic and greatly muddles any value in decoding its behavior.
Singleplayer Pokemon isn't really supposed to be about teambuilding skill or whatever. It's meant to be casual.
Imagine casually running a bunch of middle of the pack Pokemon you enjoy and then fighting the gym that your team is not fully 100% prepped for, and boom you get fucked because you cannot exploit the AI.
Teambuilding skill in general would just equate to grinding in practice as well, leading to a slow as hell gameplay loop. SMT tends to have a gameplay loop of teambuilding between bosses, but you can sacrifice the demons in order to create new ones that are more fitting. Next gym have checks to your Pokemon that generally beats that type? Now go get a few more counters and grind them up.
Even as a comp player I would not find this fun whatsoever lol
Also "rewarding knowledge" motherfuckers half the point of a new Pokemon generation is to be thrust into the unknown, and if we are not getting multiple difficulties (we are not), I would rather they balance it towards the core blind experience lol
I agree, though i gave more simple "hard" percentages of "it either knows what you do or goes by its ai estimate" because I don't know how easy it is to code ai like this. it could be easy thought, the only coding i know is basic javascript LOL i just dont like assuming things I don't know are easy to do because it makes me look dumb as fuck when they arent
I'm not good at programming yet, but my first thought is that you'd have a function with data variables of what the player has sent out in the fight (ie. match it by Pokemon slot as shown, send the data to this function when the player sends out their Pokemon in said slot), and use the types of the Pokemon. When the player has sent out multiple Pokemon use the ability of the AI to read any move regarding the Pokemon slots revealed (so you are still taking the player's action of course, but the AI only decides if it's using the Pokemon it knows about) and then it is allowed to make a prediction.)
It wouldn't be easy, most things in programming aren't, but definitely not impossible. I also might have gotten some things wrong as, again I am new, but I am just trying >.>
Most real thing said in this thread ( <- getting beat up by javascript of all things)
And? I should think suggesting the AI have a capacity for "hard reads" (in practice, randomly making baffling decisions for no discernible reason) would be similarly without merit in the reality of the games being casual experiences. I don't see what your point is in saying something few here would be so obstinately clueless as to be unaware of.
The hypothetical is just nonsensical too. Why in the world would a gym leader that knows your moves be impossible to beat just because you're not 100% geared to counter them? Take any random gym leader in these games and let them know what move you decided on using, and it would change very little, mostly just the ability to nail switch-ins better...and there's hardly any reason to switch against a monotype team full of overlapping weaknesses. It's mainly just rivals and champions that stand to gain here, and that's only if they're also given the capacity to switch in resists and immunities in response to the player's moves.