Okay, but why?
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Okay, but why?
Simply because Pokémon Platinum was not being remade, and Pokémon Diamond and Pearl were. The series has a precedent of largely ignoring third version content in remakes. In Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, content holes from Diamond and Pearl relative to Platinum were made up by new or improved features, such as the overhauled Battle Tower, the Grand Underground and Pokémon League rematches.
But just because there’s historical precedent for a decision doesn’t mean it’s the best call.
What benefit does leaving out the Platinum content serve, when it is near-universally agreed by the fandom that the Platinum content was a positive addition to the Diamond & Pearl experience?
Not only that, but HGSS and ORAS both still included more from their respective third versions than BDSP did. Even if, for some arbitrary reason, BDSP cannot be allowed to include all of the Platinum content, why did they have to go even further than before in terms of excluding that kind of content? And what was the benefit of this approach?
But why does it have to be a zero-sum game? How would it not be ideal to include the Platinum content as well as completely new additions and improvements?
Look, I don't wanna come off as aggressive or like I'm insulting you or anything, but I really am baffled and frustrated by the frequency I see this absurdly disingenuous bureaucrat "argument". This is literally exactly the problem: BDSP's foundation was the near-strictly worse version of the original Sinnoh. How much of this was due to time constraints and how much was a misguided artistic choice or executive mandate is up for debate, but either way the result is the same. "They chose to remake DP, not Platinum" is not a defense because the choice to remake DP was in itself a gigantic mistake. That is, unless you want to argue we've all gotten it wrong and Platinum is actually worse than DP, or that the Platinum improvements are overrated to such an extent that the two games are essentially on par, or even that you personally prefer DP and thus BDSP was the preferable outcome for you. I would never agree with the former two claims and would be deeply confused by the latter, but I could at least respect it.
That is alright. This is the "Unpopular Opinions" thread. Hack and slash away! :-)
I have not played Pokémon Platinum, so I cannot speak to how it compares to Diamond and Pearl. If remaking Diamond and Pearl was a mistake, what did you have in mind for Sinnoh-based follow up games? Is there a middle ground between Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl and "Platinum Diamond" and "Platinum Pearl", or should ILCA have created the latter?
The latter. Believe me, among all the third versions Platinum is in a league of its own in terms of how it expands upon and improves the original. USUM might have a comparable changelog in terms of raw size, but the stuff Platinum does is so much more meaningful to the point of being less comparable to stuff like Emerald and more like a full overhaul, a Diamond and Pearl 2.0. Redone tilesets, an expanded Pokedex, a totally new climax, the Battle Frontier and so much more. Please give it a shot, it'll totally change how you look at Sinnoh.
I honestly think people overrate Platinum's improvements over DP at least a little bit, even though it might technically be my favorite game in the franchise. The Battle Frontier and the improved speed are the most substantial changes, and yes, I really wouldn't want to replay gen 4 without them. But nothing else really strikes me as that noteworthy.
I think Cyrus is a flat-out worse character in Plat, and the Spear Pillar / Distortion World climax is clunkier in this game than it was in DP.
Emerald is a more vital improvement over RS than Plat is over DP imo.
I think Cyrus is a flat-out worse character in Plat, and the Spear Pillar / Distortion World climax is clunkier in this game than it was in DP.
Emerald is a more vital improvement over RS than Plat is over DP imo.
Trust me, I played Pearl after BDSP was announced thinking the same thing.
It's absolutely not. The expanded dex makes a gigantic difference, and so does the level curve adjustment. There are like, 6 extra Heart Scales on the overworld too.
The expanded Dex surely counts as noteworthy, no? Considering that DP’s Dex (and the limited Trainer rosters that formed as a result) was one of the biggest points of criticism toward the game.
It’s frankly kind of impressive how BDSP managed to retain the expanded Dex in the most half-assed way — like yeah you get stuff like Houndoom and Froslass, but Rhydon and Gliscor are still stuck with their evolution items in the postgame, even though Platinum solved that issue a decade ago. (Truthfully, I actually like BDSP’s conceit of the boss Trainers keeping their DP teams for the first go-around, but they could have done that without my teambuilding options being needlessly limited.)
Beyond that, though, I would contend that it’s actually the abundance of small changes that make Platinum feel like such a substantial upgrade in comparison. For instance, as mentioned by R_N in this post from way back, one example is with the game’s hidden items. DP’s hidden items were generally pretty underwhelming, but Platinum with through and updated almost the entire list of them. The added time and consideration taken to do this makes the game feel more carefully constructed and polished.
Other times, it’s with scenes that help the characters feel more rounded. I suppose we have to agree to disagree on Cyrus, but like, there’s what that linked post mentions about Barry and Wake, and there’s also the Shaymin event, which in DP (and BDSP) doesn’t include Marley at all, even though the whole reason why we guide her through Victory Road is because she wants to meet Shaymin. Platinum actually ties off that loose end. (And what’s especially baffling here is that BDSP does include Platinum’s addition to the Darkrai event; that is, the disembodied voice that shows up after you catch Darkrai and explains some of its backstory — that wasn’t present in DP, but it was in Platinum. But for some reason, Marley’s added characterization gets the axe.)
This may be the Gen 4/Sinnoh kid in me speaking but Diamond and Pearl are honestly not bad as a foundation. Yeah, compared to Platinum they are noticeably inferior, but they're still pretty fun to play through even if the things I've noted are worse, like most of all the expanded Dex is indeed quite big: getting to use all the Gen 4 evos in an in-game playthrough, and that also helped the enemy rosters for Trainer NPCs a lot, even route ones, since route Trainers in Diamond and Pearl are quite repetitive while Platinum's are a lot more varied. I also talked about it a while back but Platinum Sinnoh just plain looks better than Diamond and Pearl Sinnoh, much more vibrant and diverse and it looks more alive, while DP Sinnoh is pretty eh by comparison.
That said Diamond and Pearl aren't totally bad, the base Sinnoh roster has plenty of fun Pokemon like the well known Shinx and Starly, but also stuff like Mismagius and Honchkrow (who were totally absent in Platinum), Bronzong, Abomasnow, and whatnot. Not to mention the trade four are actually surprisingly fun thanks to new tools like Gengar actually having STAB off its best offensive stat, Rock Polish Golem, No Guard Machamp, and Alakazam with a more varied movepool. It's a pretty decent foundation, even if it was one Platinum needed to improve upon.
What I really find to be the downfall of BDSP though is that it can't even claim that it merely used DP as its foundation instead of Platinum. FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS used the base Red and Green, Gold and Silver, and Ruby and Sapphire specifically for their foundations, instead of Crystal and Emerald, but HGSS and ORAS integrated some elements from their third versions and most of all, at least tried to be more distinctive themselves. HGSS and ORAS are more modernized reimaginings of GS and RS, integrated with elements of DPP and XY, changing the experience to become proper Gen 4 and Gen 6 games respectively, like story and gameplay elements, and feel like very distinct and updated experiences. Like they're Johto and Hoenn in a new style, and I feel like I'm playing a different game from the original. They're a new spin on an old region, using a base game as a foundation but bringing their own unique changes that give them an identity of their own, separate from both Crystal/Emerald and the original base games of Gold and Silver or Ruby and Sapphire. FRLG has this too to an extent with a lot of new gameplay elements and a whole new area in Sevii.
No, what's truly the problem with BDSP is that it is literally a copy-paste of Diamond and Pearl in Unity with Sword and Shield mechanics sloppily implemented into it. It adds things like the Grand Underground, EXP All, and SwSh affection (without the friendship cap, might I add!), that completely destroy the balance of the original Diamond and Pearl experience while leaving the base experience completely and utterly unchanged. Diamond and Pearl, in its original incarnation, is not a perfect game, but if you play the original Diamond and Pearl you can at least claim it's going to work as intended, and you will play by its intended design, with the game design being coherent and one you can abide by. It's a relatively cleanly designed experience that can be experienced as the original designers intended for you to experience it. BDSP takes that design, copypastes it with no changes, and sloppily throws in certain modern mechanics that DP was not made with in mind without actually altering the experience to accommodate. ORAS had (optional) EXP All and had a different level curve to make it workable, same with many different and new Trainers being thrown in here and there with different rosters to boot.
That's not even to get into the Gym Puzzles in BDSP being identical, like the Snowpoint Gym puzzle, which was designed with a 4 way 2-D movement grid using a D-Pad in mind, but the Switch has diagonal movement thanks to its use of control sticks. Well if you try to use it here...good luck! You can be screwed! Potentially soft-locked if you keep autosave on! Meanwhile ORAS and HGSS both changed the Gym Puzzles to take advantage of the expanded capabilities of the new hardware, ORAS in particular was working with diagonal movement thanks to the 3DS Circle Pad and made new Gym Puzzles accordingly. HGSS was less substantial, but the DS was capable of more expression than a Game Boy at least, and you had a more expansive Kanto with better puzzles.
The fact that BDSP was an afterthought in lieu of Legends: Arceus shows a lot. Well, at least we can say Legends: Arceus is the proper Sinnoh "remake" in the vein of FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS, only that it's a new experience in ancient Sinnoh, but it integrates most of the Platinum roster including all of the Gen 4 evos, and has a post-game episode starring Giratina like ORAS did with Rayquaza, and we had two groups named the "Diamond Clan" and "Pearl Clan" in clear shout-out to the OG games being named Diamond and Pearl. That's what we can call the true Sinnoh "remake".
That said Diamond and Pearl aren't totally bad, the base Sinnoh roster has plenty of fun Pokemon like the well known Shinx and Starly, but also stuff like Mismagius and Honchkrow (who were totally absent in Platinum), Bronzong, Abomasnow, and whatnot. Not to mention the trade four are actually surprisingly fun thanks to new tools like Gengar actually having STAB off its best offensive stat, Rock Polish Golem, No Guard Machamp, and Alakazam with a more varied movepool. It's a pretty decent foundation, even if it was one Platinum needed to improve upon.
What I really find to be the downfall of BDSP though is that it can't even claim that it merely used DP as its foundation instead of Platinum. FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS used the base Red and Green, Gold and Silver, and Ruby and Sapphire specifically for their foundations, instead of Crystal and Emerald, but HGSS and ORAS integrated some elements from their third versions and most of all, at least tried to be more distinctive themselves. HGSS and ORAS are more modernized reimaginings of GS and RS, integrated with elements of DPP and XY, changing the experience to become proper Gen 4 and Gen 6 games respectively, like story and gameplay elements, and feel like very distinct and updated experiences. Like they're Johto and Hoenn in a new style, and I feel like I'm playing a different game from the original. They're a new spin on an old region, using a base game as a foundation but bringing their own unique changes that give them an identity of their own, separate from both Crystal/Emerald and the original base games of Gold and Silver or Ruby and Sapphire. FRLG has this too to an extent with a lot of new gameplay elements and a whole new area in Sevii.
No, what's truly the problem with BDSP is that it is literally a copy-paste of Diamond and Pearl in Unity with Sword and Shield mechanics sloppily implemented into it. It adds things like the Grand Underground, EXP All, and SwSh affection (without the friendship cap, might I add!), that completely destroy the balance of the original Diamond and Pearl experience while leaving the base experience completely and utterly unchanged. Diamond and Pearl, in its original incarnation, is not a perfect game, but if you play the original Diamond and Pearl you can at least claim it's going to work as intended, and you will play by its intended design, with the game design being coherent and one you can abide by. It's a relatively cleanly designed experience that can be experienced as the original designers intended for you to experience it. BDSP takes that design, copypastes it with no changes, and sloppily throws in certain modern mechanics that DP was not made with in mind without actually altering the experience to accommodate. ORAS had (optional) EXP All and had a different level curve to make it workable, same with many different and new Trainers being thrown in here and there with different rosters to boot.
That's not even to get into the Gym Puzzles in BDSP being identical, like the Snowpoint Gym puzzle, which was designed with a 4 way 2-D movement grid using a D-Pad in mind, but the Switch has diagonal movement thanks to its use of control sticks. Well if you try to use it here...good luck! You can be screwed! Potentially soft-locked if you keep autosave on! Meanwhile ORAS and HGSS both changed the Gym Puzzles to take advantage of the expanded capabilities of the new hardware, ORAS in particular was working with diagonal movement thanks to the 3DS Circle Pad and made new Gym Puzzles accordingly. HGSS was less substantial, but the DS was capable of more expression than a Game Boy at least, and you had a more expansive Kanto with better puzzles.
The fact that BDSP was an afterthought in lieu of Legends: Arceus shows a lot. Well, at least we can say Legends: Arceus is the proper Sinnoh "remake" in the vein of FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS, only that it's a new experience in ancient Sinnoh, but it integrates most of the Platinum roster including all of the Gen 4 evos, and has a post-game episode starring Giratina like ORAS did with Rayquaza, and we had two groups named the "Diamond Clan" and "Pearl Clan" in clear shout-out to the OG games being named Diamond and Pearl. That's what we can call the true Sinnoh "remake".
One thing I give DP credit for was instituting a solid map design. I think Hoenn and Sinnoh's maps feel pretty robust and organically intertwined, with the latter being executed quite nicely using Mt. Coronet as a nexus point. DP deserves credit for that, because Platinum's vibrancy only built on top of that rather than implemented it from scratch. There were also some good foundational character designs in my opinion with Barry as the rival, Cyrus as the villain, and Cynthia as the champion.
But that kind of feels like where the credit ends, for me at least. Aside from the aforementioned flaws regarding game speed, Battle Frontier, dex, opposing rosters, and overworld resources - DP's AI might be literally the worst in the series, even more so than RBY. To pull that off over 10 years after the original game's release is a pretty astonishing blunder.
But that kind of feels like where the credit ends, for me at least. Aside from the aforementioned flaws regarding game speed, Battle Frontier, dex, opposing rosters, and overworld resources - DP's AI might be literally the worst in the series, even more so than RBY. To pull that off over 10 years after the original game's release is a pretty astonishing blunder.
Oh god, flashing back vividly to that utterly bizarre battle I had with Byron in my Pearl challenge the other year where I was using Shedinja and he just switched every turn. Even though his Bronzor knows Hypnosis and Confuse Ray and his Steelix knows Sandstorm! And he never switched to his Bastiodon, even though that knows Ancientpower.
Bastiodon's his ace, he's not allowed to send it out til the other two are dead.
There is no handheld Pokémon game where the AI is programmed to get around Wonder Guard laterally like that.
I think the constant switching may have been the result of the AI wanting to switch to Bastiodon but the rule about having to send out his ace last interfering and changing it to the other option, did he start trying to actually use moves after you knocked one of them out?
I'm pretty sure only trainers with Megas/Dynamax/Terastal mons have AI rules forcing them to reserve their ace until the end, so it was never a thing at all until XY. Literally the first vid I found of a Diamond Gym Battle has Volkner send his Luxray out second. I do agree that Wonder Guard has befuddled the AI well beyond just DP, unable to beat it with residual damage until it's fully backed into a corner.
I have a theory for why this happened, but I'm not 100% confident. So, if the switch logic for the AI tells them that they have no effective damaging moves, because of type and/or ability, then they switch out, even if they have ways around it (e.g. a Ghost mon out against an AI mon with only Normal/Fighting attacks but which also knows Foresight). However, I've heard speedrunners say that when the AI is selecting the mon to switch in they don't factor in your ability. The AI knows Shedinja has 1 HP, so it believes that any attacking move will take it out. Therefore, it switches in the next Pokemon in the list that it thinks can OHKO, which is always either Bronzor or Steelix because the default order for Byron's mons is Bronzor/Steelix/Bastiodon (where Steelix is the first reserve) and the order after the initial switch is Steelix/Bronzor/Bastiodon (now Bronzor is the first reserve).
I don't know how much this has changed in later gens, but I'm curious to test it out.
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False, the AI is programmed to save the highest-levelled Pokemon for last unless it detects an advantageous matchup.
Source: me - when I knocked out his Bronzor, he then did switch to Bastiodon. But he didn't switch to it initially.
Again, not true: the AI in several games is capable of countering Wonder Guard via the use of Toxic or similar moves.
This is basically it. The AI is programmed to try and achieve the maximum possible yield from the current turn, which generally means inflicting the maximum possible damage on the opponent (but some factors override this to take priority, like setting a weather condition, boosting stats, or inflicting status).
If the AI's Pokemon only has one damaging move and the Pokemon it's facing is immune, one of two things will happen: it will use a non-attacking move or it will switch. In Emerald, for instance, Anabel's Raikou only has Thunderbolt as a damaging move; if you bring a Ground-type, she might switch but she's more likely to simply use Calm Mind and Reflect until she's maxed out, then Rest every time she loses HP. Fighting Noland's Gold team in Emerald with a Shedinja demonstrates this even more plainly - none of his Pokemon can damage Shedinja, so his Metagross will use Protect repeatedly, his Latias will boost to the max with Calm Mind and then use Rest over and over, and his Swampert will simply attack at random.
In this instance, Byron's Bronzor and Steelix can't damage Shedinja directly so all he does is switch. Bronzor knows Confuse Ray and Hypnosis, which would both have been valid options to use as Shedinja might then self-KO from confusion damage. Using Sandstorm, too, would have been an effective move because once the storm is set up, I'm dead.
But the AI cannot "see" past the current turn - it's not able to anticipate the Sandstorm damage or factor that in to damage calculations. Thus, switching is seen as a better option than using a move the AI considers inefficient. But a better level of AI would simply switch to Bastiodon straight away rather than just cycling between his other two team members.
In battles outside of the post-game battle facilities? Also note that I said handheld games, the Orre games and Battle Revolution don't count.
The battle facilities have their own AI and most of your later examples are from them, calling the in-game AI not being the deliberately busted frontier version is not a flaw.
Your post said "handheld games", not "specific examples within the handheld games". And where did I mention the console games exactly?
The whole segue into this post was literally about DP's AI being worse than other games in the series, which it demonstrably is. I haven't tested literally every battle in the series but I can say for certain that, in games where the general AI is better-programmed than DP's, opponents are capable of working around Wonder Guard - even leaving aside facility AI, I've used Shedinja in RSE a couple of times and as an example when I fought Norman I don't recall him switching out: I believe his Spinda used Teeter Dance instead.
Fits with the technology theme, no?
As someone who's used Shedinja in Emerald too, I remember Norman immediately switching to Vigoroth. Here are three different examples from YouTube of that happening. I don't think these baseline elements of the AI are any worse in DP than the other games, although you're right that facilities seem to operate a little differently.
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Huh. Fair dos, guess I'm just misremembering then.
You see, what really makes DP straight up unplayable nowadays is the AI. You could make a strong case for the level curve and trainer rosters too, but the AI is a major issue. Battles that would otherwise be thrilling like Jupiter turn into crapshoots.
Besides that, a lot of things that make Sinnoh great are there, but in a much rougher state. The map design, for example, is pretty much intact.
Wait a minute... How did I overlook this for so long?
I wonder if it's possible to give Frontier/Tower AI to Gym Leaders through Decomp Modding...
my first time positing on here so not sure where to post but i really need to see/battle a kyogre or have someone to trade with on gen 4. i havent been able to see kyogre for my pokedex so i cant search for him on the GTS if anyone could help or point me in the direction of where to best post that would be appreciated massively
thank you all!
thank you all!
The section of the forums titled "Wi-Fi Centre" might be a good bet
That said, not many people do trades on Gen IV any more as it's impossible for most. Check out Classic GTS if you haven't already.
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Did you post this in the wrong thread by any chance?