Unpopular opinions

[ant4456]

They'll finally release Eternamax Eternatus without super gimmick or item

Watch...


Edit: to get an idea how bad this is
E. Eternatus literally doesn't need any defensive investment at all, yet tanks these
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Only 130 Speed?

SV OU for sure.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

People have complained and will continue to complain about ever-mounting powercreep but I legitimately think that pre-nerf Crowned Zacian will not be surpassed as the most disgustingly optimized Pokemon ever for a very, VERY long time. The only good thing that can be said for it is "It's not RBY Mewtwo". Other than that... Well, let me put it like this.
View attachment 632477
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!

This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.

By giving that an actual signature move.

Alternatively, for a new mon... Swap Atk and SpA, take 5 points off Atk and put it into Speed.

 

[Heatranator]

By giving that an actual signature move.

Alternatively, for a new mon... Swap Atk and SpA, take 5 points off Atk and put it into Speed.

Behemoth blade left the chat:
You know, a 100 bp steel type move with no drawbacks. Nothing special.

 

[pika pal]

People have complained and will continue to complain about ever-mounting powercreep but I legitimately think that pre-nerf Crowned Zacian will not be surpassed as the most disgustingly optimized Pokemon ever for a very, VERY long time. The only good thing that can be said for it is "It's not RBY Mewtwo". Other than that... Well, let me put it like this.
View attachment 632477
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!

This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.

I do think it fair to note that the Power Creep, while it probably has peaked with Gen 8 Zacian, is moreso a concern in extending to less restricted Pokemon when you get things like Flutter Mane and Ogerpon. Zacian at least has the justification that it's designed for an inherently unbalanced level of play vs these mons being free-for-all usage options. The two ways Power Creep can go are increasing the ceiling and raising the floor, and if Zacian is the limit on the former, the concern for the playerbase would now be the latter.

 

[Hugin]

People have complained and will continue to complain about ever-mounting powercreep but I legitimately think that pre-nerf Crowned Zacian will not be surpassed as the most disgustingly optimized Pokemon ever for a very, VERY long time. The only good thing that can be said for it is "It's not RBY Mewtwo". Other than that... Well, let me put it like this.
View attachment 632477
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!

This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.

There's three other points to make with it:
It could not use an item.
It could not DMax.
It's ability was stupid-broken as well.

Which is a good example of how restrictions on a mon really don't matter much unless they're overbearing. No item and no DMax(a legit busted mechanic) would normally be a big deal, but between a BST of Yes and an ability that's better than any item, Zacian managed to be completely busted anyway. And I think GF learned from that(given just how strong the nerf-bat was) and won't be relying on restrictions to balance mons going forward.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

People have complained and will continue to complain about ever-mounting powercreep but I legitimately think that pre-nerf Crowned Zacian will not be surpassed as the most disgustingly optimized Pokemon ever for a very, VERY long time. The only good thing that can be said for it is "It's not RBY Mewtwo". Other than that... Well, let me put it like this.
View attachment 632477
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!

This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.

I'd actually like to argue that Calyrex Shadow in generation 9 is more overwhelming than Zacian Crowned, and probably the best Pokemon of all time. Yes, that includes RBY Mewtwo.
Like, does it actually matter that "it can't hit Darks" when the best Dark is one with no recovery outside of Leftovers and it also has Tera so yes it can hit Darks? Seriously, Tera is just absurd on this guy and lets it beat basically everything with either Fairy or Fighting, your choice. It also has deceptively good bulk, maybe not enough to take pre-Tera Knock Offs but far more than you'd expect out of such an offensive behemoth.
Don't get me wrong, pre-nerf Zacian Crowned is ridiculous and Should Not Be A Thing, but Tera Caly-S is like the definition of a win button.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

What really has always struck me about Zacian is not only the sheer power creep of itself, but the sharp difference in viability between it and Zamazenta despite both having the same stat total. How they initially turned out in Gen 8 is not only a reflection of the power creep design but also how much harder it is to create a powerhouse that is defensively oriented and make it great vs making an offensively oriented powerhouse that is great. The idea behind both is clear and I like the design dichotomy: Zacian is min-maxed towards one offensive stat which it hits extremely hard with, and offensively you'd ideally like to specialize in just one side and be extremely good at it, while Zamazenta is less min-maxed and instead has very high defensive stats on both sides. This helps defensively because if your goal is to take hits, being able to endure them from both sides is a premium.

But Zacian has more tools to use its statline well. It has Swords Dance and can capitalize on its offensive prowess with great STABs and good coverage, and incredible Speed helps it as well. Meanwhile Zamazenta never really took off as well, with its moveset being less suitable for singles, and it didn't even get Body Press in its debut generation to use its boosted Defense which it can boost with Dauntless Shield+Iron Defense. They realized denying it that was too much and made it too weak and now it has the move, but that was an example of Zamazenta being the complete opposite direction of Zacian: instead of being the power creep, it was the victim of power creep and was comically underwhelming for a restricted legendary (even now it's not really *that* impressive). It's gotten better now with Body Press, but the point still stands: it is the complete opposite.

---

In general when it comes to restricted legendaries though, it's interesting that the ability to be exceptional or unique means the strongest of the restricted legendaries is often made such not just by stats, but also abilities, movepools, and whatnot. Like Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza for instance are not new: they are some of the oldest legendaries in the book having been around since Gen 3, and their stats aren't super min-maxed like Gen 8 Zacian was, but they still manage to be among the best and most utterly powerful thanks to their combination of abilities and movepools. Kyogre in particular has been a monster since its inception and is still one today because it has Drizzle, which summons rain, making it able to summon rain for others to take advantage of, it can also use that rain itself using its 150 Special Attack and Water STAB further boosted by rain to hit like an utter truck with Water Spout and Surf/Origin Pulse, the former of which is 150 BP at full health, and with STAB+Rain is a nuke. Groudon isn't quite as powerful but its bulk, Ground typing, and summoning sun has made it a formidable force. You get the drill.

Meanwhile some restricted legendaries haven't been so fortunate. Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina were great in their debut generation but have been power crept to hell, as they don't have any exceptional qualities being relatively average all around for restricted legendary standards, with no particularly unique tools in their boxes. Things like the Unova dragons and Solgaleo/Lunala also don't particularly stand out, and never did to begin with even in their own debut generations. I could go on but yeah.

Like yeah, we look at Zacian and Miraidon as exceptionally strong powerhouses who contribute to power creep in modern generations, but there's still an example of what constitutes a Pokemon who is exceptional even in earlier gens: while a lot of older restricted legendaries haven't aged that well, there is definitely one group that has (the Hoenn trio) who themselves have always embodied what makes an extremely good Pokemon well, extremely good, by being both exceptional at something and unique.

 

[Dive Missile]

honestly the part i dislike most about gen 8 zacian is just how linear it is. other broken ubers like calyrex, miraidon, mray, etc. are in part broken because they have a ridiculous amount of options to choose from and can basically do whatever they want. meanwhile zacian (afaik) doesn't actually learn a ton of great moves, it just has enough combined with basically everything else being super broken, meaning it manages to be broken with basically one set. there's just something so lame about the most broken mon in the game being a big dumb hitter with a million bst

 

[Coronis]

Pokemon has always been a speed game, so inherently, faster Pokemon will always be more overpowered. Offensive mons will also always be more valuable than defensive mons. The difference between say, the Gen 3 vs Gen 4 and Gen 5 legends is mainly based on Groudon/Kyogre having great abilities to go with their offensive stat, whilst the others are crap by comparison (Pressure, Turboblaze/Teravolt). Rayquaza is one of those rare mons where both offensive stats are huge, which makes up for its relatively lackluster speed. Mewtwo despite having a poor ability has great speed and a great offensive stat. In Gen 8 and 9 we’ve now seen high speed box legends with great offensive stats and great abilities. And of course since all these guys are 670/680 they have good bulk as well.

 

[Sonikku A]

The other issue with none legendary powercreep is how early route mons...still mostly suck ass, even in respect to earlier gens
The exception is Espathra and Lokix, but it doesn't matter when the Paradoxes and Palafin H. are easy to get, same for mid and later game mon power creep

And yeah, powercreep mostly is speed offense oriented. A glass cannon is great, but an immovable brick sucks (see pre Body Press Shuckle). If there were settings to have some matches start or permanently without stacking Trick Room, we may have more strats of slow mons seen outside VGC

 

[pika pal]

honestly the part i dislike most about gen 8 zacian is just how linear it is. other broken ubers like calyrex, miraidon, mray, etc. are in part broken because they have a ridiculous amount of options to choose from and can basically do whatever they want. meanwhile zacian (afaik) doesn't actually learn a ton of great moves, it just has enough combined with basically everything else being super broken, meaning it manages to be broken with basically one set. there's just something so lame about the most broken mon in the game being a big dumb hitter with a million bst

I'll concur here. Even RBY Mewtwo, arguably the most busted THING ever put into a Pokemon game relative to the entire roster it existed with, was at least a game of having a half-dozen ways to use it to position yours better than the opponent's, and GSC Snorlax to a much less oppressive extent was also absurdly versatile.

Like these two could be compared to Queen pieces in Chess, where they do a ton at once but still need you to pilot them well to get around the opposing one or a multi-piece move to answer them. SS Zacian is just shoving the enemy with bigger numbers than they are capable of shoving you with on anything besides their own Zacian. There's no dimension to playing it, just a power level that suppresses anything besides itself and 2 answers.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Behemoth blade left the chat:
You know, a 100 bp steel type move with no drawbacks. Nothing special.

 

[AztecCroc]

Behemoth blade left the chat:
You know, a 100 bp steel type move with no drawbacks. Nothing special.

I mean, it shouldn't be. Plenty of types have that, it's only notable because the Steel moves with a power above 80 that aren't signatures are Iron Tail (absolutely atrocious accuracy for a move with only 100 power), Meteor Mash (only learned by like 5 Pokémon of which 3 are actually Steel), Steel Roller (utter trash that fails without Terrain, while also destroying the Terrain), and Steel Beam (which eats half the user's HP).

It's notability only exists because Steel's gimped even worse than Fighting in terms of generic move choice.

 

[artificialdeath]

honestly the part i dislike most about gen 8 zacian is just how linear it is. other broken ubers like calyrex, miraidon, mray, etc. are in part broken because they have a ridiculous amount of options to choose from and can basically do whatever they want. meanwhile zacian (afaik) doesn't actually learn a ton of great moves, it just has enough combined with basically everything else being super broken, meaning it manages to be broken with basically one set. there's just something so lame about the most broken mon in the game being a big dumb hitter with a million bst

Yeah as obnoxious as they were to face when legal at least they got creative with designing insanely optimized mons this gen. It seems like GF tried to balance broken mons in Gen 8 around having really poor coverage but unsurprisingly that doesn't work when you can just click Wicked Blow or Fishious Rend repeatedly. (It's also funny that Tera gets introduced in the gen right after they decided to do that.)

 

[Sonikku A]

Tera makes me sad
As a solution to Hidden Power post split, I love it. Tera Blast factoring what stat you want is great

But for the granting of STAB and typing and universal application of it, it became as busted as Z Moves were for already good mons in practice. Only no item is needed

I was a heavy Tera supporter early this Gen, and still think it's the best of the gimmicks...but I'm still sad

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

How they initially turned out in Gen 8 is not only a reflection of the power creep design but also how much harder it is to create a powerhouse that is defensively oriented and make it great

Zamazenta was done dirty in Gen 8.

No King's Shield and Body Press instantly set it up for failure. Behemoth Bash should've worked off its defense too.

There are defensive powerhouses, but Zamazenta wasn't really built to be one. I don't think it ever had a recovery move.
I see it more as a bulky offense mon in terms of design.

 

[Heatranator]

Zamazenta was done dirty in Gen 8.

No King's Shield and Body Press instantly set it up for failure. Behemoth Bash should've worked off its defense too.

There are defensive powerhouses, but Zamazenta wasn't really built to be one. I don't think it ever had a recovery move.
I see it more as a bulky offense mon in terms of design.

At least now its getting the spotlight in VGC, where as Zacian is considered mid, while Zama is one of the best legendaries in the meta rn.
Oh how the turn tables have turned.

 

[Death Phenomeno]

I'm going to go on a little tangent here and post my own unpopular opinion; I truly believe Zacian shouldn't have been nerfed.

Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?

Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?

 

[Heatranator]

I'm going to go on a little tangent here and post my own unpopular opinion; I truly believe Zacian shouldn't have been nerfed.

Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?

Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?

The only time I can think of where they reversed a nerf was adding back moves to mons movepools via tms in the DLC's, I think other than that no, they have not reversed a nerf.
The issue with zacian being that powerful is that it was a step above everything else that also was considered broken, it would be fine if it was a miraidon or koraidon even, which are already a step above other ubers. But the fact that it was way, way more powerful than other things that weren't meant to be broken is not really good. The fact that they had to nerf it is testament to that. And this is Gamefreak we are talking about, who hardly ever nerf things, they didn't even nerf Calyrex Shadow who almost straddled zacian's level of broken.

 

[Coronis]

I'm going to go on a little tangent here and post my own unpopular opinion; I truly believe Zacian shouldn't have been nerfed.

Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?

Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?

 

[pika pal]

I'm going to go on a little tangent here and post my own unpopular opinion; I truly believe Zacian shouldn't have been nerfed.

Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?

Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?

I think Zacian has two issues here that led into it being nerfed: It's part of a Duo in which it directly outclasses its counterpart (compare Koraidon/Miraidon who are comparable to each other even if they're well above your average Ubermon); additionally, it's a boring and linear mon which proves the Numbers are its biggest problem (compare the Weather Titans who, while centralizing, do so with varied kits and building around their weather such that they don't just press button and win).

The former has been a massive subject of mockery even among casual players and it highlights Zamazenta's design issues in turn (it's a Bulky Offense/Defensive mon that's worse than the Sword at Bulky Offense plays), while the latter makes the Restricted VGC formats where it was permitted boring to watch since it both steamrolled most opponents (Intrepid Sword subverting Intimidate counterplay) and Behemoth Blade meant it punished the primary gimmick of the Gen (instead of Kaiju Battles, Dynamax had to be played cautiously lest the Dog waste you and break the back and forth). Gamefreak had a vested interest in nerfing Zacian because it being that strong was arguably detrimental to their brand (it outperformed deliberately-stupid Mons like Mega Rayquaza or Ultra Necrozma without being that level of "special" itself) both in itself and for highlighting other major imbalances (Zacian brings to the fore how busted Fairy and Steel are, separately or in tandem, for example) that were "regular" mechanics it exploited even outside its unique traits.

RBY Mewtwo for its time was similarly made to be busted compared to everything else, and Gamefreak never really nerfed it because that was an image they wanted Mewtwo to hold onto even as Generational updates wore away at the mechanics it exploited. Something like RBY Mewtwo I don't think COULD happen in Gen 7 or later because part of what made it so OP in the first place was the game being too limited for counterplay to really exist in the first place (Zacian's extremely-limited response options rely on things like Abilities for Unaware Quagsire).

 

[bdt2002]

I haven't been on the Forums very much lately until today, but I'm back with some more opinions. Some of these may be cold takes, some may be hot takes, and some may feel like "dude, what the heck are you smoking!?". Let's dive right in and see what we've got this time:

• People talk about how Zygarde deserved its own Kalos game, and I've heard some people in the past say it's strange how Suicune was selected as the represent "third Legendary" of the Gen 2 installments when Raikou and Entei remained "game-less". I think there's another Legendary we need to add to this discussion, because the more I think about it, it is an absolute crime that Regigigas never got its own Sinnoh game. Something like Heatran or any of the lake guardians not getting its own game makes sense to varying extents, and while I would say Cresselia and Darkrai deserved split versions of their own, the fact is that there would be almost no incentive to not buy the Darkrai version over the Cresselia version. Regigigas, on the other hand... it's one thing that Regigigas is an infamously underpowered Legendary Pokémon- it was specifically designed that way as a sort of "Slaking 2.0"- but thematically it makes sense too. Not only could this new game have given Regigigas a chance to finally get going (pun absolutely intended), but the amount of shared lore connections between Hoenn and Sinnoh is much, much less than Kanto and Johto had. Which, yeah, that makes sense, but you can't tell me there wasn't an opportunity for a Crystal-esque story involving the Regi Trio, much like how in that game you need all three Legendary Beasts before you can find Ho-Oh.

• The Black & White sequels, and to a lesser extent the Hoenn remakes from Gen 6, both have an argument to be made that they should have been Gen 5 3DS titles- while still keeping Black & White 1 as DS titles. There are many possible reasons for why Black 2 & White 2 might not have sold as well as Game Freak would have hoped for at the time, but I never see anyone talk about just how late in the original DS's lifespan Black 2 & White 2 were actually released. A 2012 release date for these Gen 5 DS titles- actually, let's throw in 2012's "Pokémon Conquest" into the mix while we're at it- very likely could have performed better as 3DS titles to help a platform that really only had Mario games, Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Animal Crossing: New Leaf as major first-party release during the first two years of the platform's fiscal lifespan. As for the Hoenn remakes, I support the call for these to be made into 3DS titles, but releasing them during the second half of Gen 5's lifespan could have helped to patch up some of the generations' remaining holes, such as the lack of returning mascot Legendary and starter Pokémon. If you're worried about how connectivity between Gen 5 on DS and Gen 5 on 3DS would work, you would still have been able to use wireless trading, even if something like Nintendo WFC remained off the table.

• Pokémon Masters EX content deserves to be mentioned alongside the main series chronology and similarly deserves to be referenced, if not added into future releases on Nintendo's own hardware. I understand that there are arguments to be made on both sides about whether or not this mobile game is actually part of main series canon, but I'm choosing to look at this opinion through a similar lens that I view games such as Fire Emblem Heroes and Mario Kart Tour, among others I might not know about. Those two games have both had ideas and content referenced or added into mainline installments in their respective series on the Nintendo Switch, and while an actual port of Masters EX to either the Switch or the recently confirmed Switch successor might be off the table, from a world building perspective there aren't very many negatives I can think of to preserving this content that is currently only available on mobile devices. If anything else, it would explain why we haven't heard much about how much time takes place in between games ever since Gen 7's Alola installments, a group of games that from what we know take place two years after Black 2, White 2, X, and Y. Since the storyline of Pokémon Masters seems to take place after all of the events of the games that are being referenced, having Masters EX content be properly acknowledged may help answer existing questions about the exact timeline placements of Generations 8 and 9, Legends games not withstanding.

 

[AztecCroc]

They were/are never gonna split a generation across multiple consoles especially back when every game in a generation was supposed to actually be able to connect.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

• The Black & White sequels, and to a lesser extent the Hoenn remakes from Gen 6, both have an argument to be made that they should have been Gen 5 3DS titles- while still keeping Black & White 1 as DS titles. There are many possible reasons for why Black 2 & White 2 might not have sold as well as Game Freak would have hoped for at the time, but I never see anyone talk about just how late in the original DS's lifespan Black 2 & White 2 were actually released. A 2012 release date for these Gen 5 DS titles- actually, let's throw in 2012's "Pokémon Conquest" into the mix while we're at it- very likely could have performed better as 3DS titles to help a platform that really only had Mario games, Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Animal Crossing: New Leaf as major first-party release during the first two years of the platform's fiscal lifespan. As for the Hoenn remakes, I support the call for these to be made into 3DS titles, but releasing them during the second half of Gen 5's lifespan could have helped to patch up some of the generations' remaining holes, such as the lack of returning mascot Legendary and starter Pokémon. If you're worried about how connectivity between Gen 5 on DS and Gen 5 on 3DS would work, you would still have been able to use wireless trading, even if something like Nintendo WFC remained off the table.

Yeah, this is a "what are you smoking" opinion in my eyes I'm afraid.

Game Freak generally reserves the first set of games of a new generation for a new console (until recently anyway; "well that depends if you consider LGPE mainstream games", blah blah, I know), so unless a hypothetical B2W2 on the 3DS were pretty damn revolutionary they'd have been underwhelming as hell as Pokemon's first foray onto the 3DS.

I was actually pretty lukewarm on BW when they came out and it took me a while to really take to them. But for people like me who didn't have a 3DS at the time B2W2 came out, those games being 3DS-exclusive alone probably wouldn't have been a strong enough reason to buy a 3DS unless I'd really loved the originals. And Game Freak know that. You need new Pokemon to sell a game on a new console and Black & White Kyurem were never going to be enough.

Plus the development time required to make those games for the 3DS would have been massive unless they were basically DS titles with some minor upgrades and extras - which they would likely have had to have been if backwards compatibility was ever going to be a thing. And if that's what B2W2 had been I guarantee reviews for those titles would have been dire. They'd have been called unambitious, unexciting, and not worth the additional money required. Hell, Emerald added a wealth of new content and it still got a slew of bad reviews criticising it for being too similar to RS - this would have had to have been Unova with Kalos-style graphics and all of Kalos' new Pokemon to have any chance of avoiding that.

Instead I'd say what we got with B2W2 was the best of both worlds: still DS titles, but with some 3DS additions and peripherals. Personally speaking, my original model DS couldn't connect to most home WiFi outlets so I never used the Dream World or anything like that, but I got a 3DS concurrently with XY's release which happened to overlap more or less exactly with the dying days of Gen V's online services; so those short few weeks of being able to use the GTS before it went offline were genuinely magical for me (god bless PokeClassic Network for bringing that heady thrill back years later.)

 

[meamdefinitely5]

But it has the most meaningful flaw of all.
It was countered by Quagsire

QuaggySupremacy
Oops and LOL will have an eternal legacy