As cool as it would be to see Karen break out a TTar, Lance is significantly better than her as a champion.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
As cool as it would be to see Karen break out a TTar, Lance is significantly better than her as a champion.
As cool as it would be to see Karen break out a TTar, Lance is significantly better than her as a champion.
Imagine the chaos that would be a Doubles champion battle
People have complained and will continue to complain about ever-mounting powercreep but I legitimately think that pre-nerf Crowned Zacian will not be surpassed as the most disgustingly optimized Pokemon ever for a very, VERY long time. The only good thing that can be said for it is "It's not RBY Mewtwo". Other than that... Well, let me put it like this.
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!
This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.
Genuine question: How do you make a Pokemon stronger than this under the current design ethoses of the series without delving into hackmons-level nonsense? How do you even begin to surpass the undisputed best typing in the game with more power and bulk than Mega Mawile and a speed tier only a few points behind Pheromosa? Koraidon and Miraidon are already noticeable steps down: They're still super strong, yes, but all their STABs have immunities and their baseline offenses aren't anything special for mascot legendary standards. In other words, they have actual meaningful flaws, something which doesn't apply to Zacian-C!
This Pokemon being amazing isn't unpopular, I know, that's not my argument. What I am saying is that this is almost certainly the end of the line for powercreep unless there's some major fundamental change to Pokemon design such as a rebalance of the type chart or Game Freak introducing Pokemon with BSTs in the 800s and 900s.
But it has the most meaningful flaw of all.
It was countered by Quagsire
And checked well by the never OU Arcanine.
Only 130 Speed?They'll finally release Eternamax Eternatus without super gimmick or item
Watch...
Edit: to get an idea how bad this is
E. Eternatus literally doesn't need any defensive investment at all, yet tanks these
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SV OU for sure.
By giving that an actual signature move.
Alternatively, for a new mon... Swap Atk and SpA, take 5 points off Atk and put it into Speed.
Behemoth blade left the chat:
You know, a 100 bp steel type move with no drawbacks. Nothing special.
I do think it fair to note that the Power Creep, while it probably has peaked with Gen 8 Zacian, is moreso a concern in extending to less restricted Pokemon when you get things like Flutter Mane and Ogerpon. Zacian at least has the justification that it's designed for an inherently unbalanced level of play vs these mons being free-for-all usage options. The two ways Power Creep can go are increasing the ceiling and raising the floor, and if Zacian is the limit on the former, the concern for the playerbase would now be the latter.
There's three other points to make with it:
It could not use an item.
It could not DMax.
It's ability was stupid-broken as well.
Which is a good example of how restrictions on a mon really don't matter much unless they're overbearing. No item and no DMax(a legit busted mechanic) would normally be a big deal, but between a BST of Yes and an ability that's better than any item, Zacian managed to be completely busted anyway. And I think GF learned from that(given just how strong the nerf-bat was) and won't be relying on restrictions to balance mons going forward.
I'd actually like to argue that Calyrex Shadow in generation 9 is more overwhelming than Zacian Crowned, and probably the best Pokemon of all time. Yes, that includes RBY Mewtwo.
Like, does it actually matter that "it can't hit Darks" when the best Dark is one with no recovery outside of Leftovers and it also has Tera so yes it can hit Darks? Seriously, Tera is just absurd on this guy and lets it beat basically everything with either Fairy or Fighting, your choice. It also has deceptively good bulk, maybe not enough to take pre-Tera Knock Offs but far more than you'd expect out of such an offensive behemoth.
Don't get me wrong, pre-nerf Zacian Crowned is ridiculous and Should Not Be A Thing, but Tera Caly-S is like the definition of a win button.
What really has always struck me about Zacian is not only the sheer power creep of itself, but the sharp difference in viability between it and Zamazenta despite both having the same stat total. How they initially turned out in Gen 8 is not only a reflection of the power creep design but also how much harder it is to create a powerhouse that is defensively oriented and make it great vs making an offensively oriented powerhouse that is great. The idea behind both is clear and I like the design dichotomy: Zacian is min-maxed towards one offensive stat which it hits extremely hard with, and offensively you'd ideally like to specialize in just one side and be extremely good at it, while Zamazenta is less min-maxed and instead has very high defensive stats on both sides. This helps defensively because if your goal is to take hits, being able to endure them from both sides is a premium.
But Zacian has more tools to use its statline well. It has Swords Dance and can capitalize on its offensive prowess with great STABs and good coverage, and incredible Speed helps it as well. Meanwhile Zamazenta never really took off as well, with its moveset being less suitable for singles, and it didn't even get Body Press in its debut generation to use its boosted Defense which it can boost with Dauntless Shield+Iron Defense. They realized denying it that was too much and made it too weak and now it has the move, but that was an example of Zamazenta being the complete opposite direction of Zacian: instead of being the power creep, it was the victim of power creep and was comically underwhelming for a restricted legendary (even now it's not really *that* impressive). It's gotten better now with Body Press, but the point still stands: it is the complete opposite.
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In general when it comes to restricted legendaries though, it's interesting that the ability to be exceptional or unique means the strongest of the restricted legendaries is often made such not just by stats, but also abilities, movepools, and whatnot. Like Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza for instance are not new: they are some of the oldest legendaries in the book having been around since Gen 3, and their stats aren't super min-maxed like Gen 8 Zacian was, but they still manage to be among the best and most utterly powerful thanks to their combination of abilities and movepools. Kyogre in particular has been a monster since its inception and is still one today because it has Drizzle, which summons rain, making it able to summon rain for others to take advantage of, it can also use that rain itself using its 150 Special Attack and Water STAB further boosted by rain to hit like an utter truck with Water Spout and Surf/Origin Pulse, the former of which is 150 BP at full health, and with STAB+Rain is a nuke. Groudon isn't quite as powerful but its bulk, Ground typing, and summoning sun has made it a formidable force. You get the drill.
Meanwhile some restricted legendaries haven't been so fortunate. Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina were great in their debut generation but have been power crept to hell, as they don't have any exceptional qualities being relatively average all around for restricted legendary standards, with no particularly unique tools in their boxes. Things like the Unova dragons and Solgaleo/Lunala also don't particularly stand out, and never did to begin with even in their own debut generations. I could go on but yeah.
Like yeah, we look at Zacian and Miraidon as exceptionally strong powerhouses who contribute to power creep in modern generations, but there's still an example of what constitutes a Pokemon who is exceptional even in earlier gens: while a lot of older restricted legendaries haven't aged that well, there is definitely one group that has (the Hoenn trio) who themselves have always embodied what makes an extremely good Pokemon well, extremely good, by being both exceptional at something and unique.
But Zacian has more tools to use its statline well. It has Swords Dance and can capitalize on its offensive prowess with great STABs and good coverage, and incredible Speed helps it as well. Meanwhile Zamazenta never really took off as well, with its moveset being less suitable for singles, and it didn't even get Body Press in its debut generation to use its boosted Defense which it can boost with Dauntless Shield+Iron Defense. They realized denying it that was too much and made it too weak and now it has the move, but that was an example of Zamazenta being the complete opposite direction of Zacian: instead of being the power creep, it was the victim of power creep and was comically underwhelming for a restricted legendary (even now it's not really *that* impressive). It's gotten better now with Body Press, but the point still stands: it is the complete opposite.
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In general when it comes to restricted legendaries though, it's interesting that the ability to be exceptional or unique means the strongest of the restricted legendaries is often made such not just by stats, but also abilities, movepools, and whatnot. Like Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza for instance are not new: they are some of the oldest legendaries in the book having been around since Gen 3, and their stats aren't super min-maxed like Gen 8 Zacian was, but they still manage to be among the best and most utterly powerful thanks to their combination of abilities and movepools. Kyogre in particular has been a monster since its inception and is still one today because it has Drizzle, which summons rain, making it able to summon rain for others to take advantage of, it can also use that rain itself using its 150 Special Attack and Water STAB further boosted by rain to hit like an utter truck with Water Spout and Surf/Origin Pulse, the former of which is 150 BP at full health, and with STAB+Rain is a nuke. Groudon isn't quite as powerful but its bulk, Ground typing, and summoning sun has made it a formidable force. You get the drill.
Meanwhile some restricted legendaries haven't been so fortunate. Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina were great in their debut generation but have been power crept to hell, as they don't have any exceptional qualities being relatively average all around for restricted legendary standards, with no particularly unique tools in their boxes. Things like the Unova dragons and Solgaleo/Lunala also don't particularly stand out, and never did to begin with even in their own debut generations. I could go on but yeah.
Like yeah, we look at Zacian and Miraidon as exceptionally strong powerhouses who contribute to power creep in modern generations, but there's still an example of what constitutes a Pokemon who is exceptional even in earlier gens: while a lot of older restricted legendaries haven't aged that well, there is definitely one group that has (the Hoenn trio) who themselves have always embodied what makes an extremely good Pokemon well, extremely good, by being both exceptional at something and unique.
honestly the part i dislike most about gen 8 zacian is just how linear it is. other broken ubers like calyrex, miraidon, mray, etc. are in part broken because they have a ridiculous amount of options to choose from and can basically do whatever they want. meanwhile zacian (afaik) doesn't actually learn a ton of great moves, it just has enough combined with basically everything else being super broken, meaning it manages to be broken with basically one set. there's just something so lame about the most broken mon in the game being a big dumb hitter with a million bst
Pokemon has always been a speed game, so inherently, faster Pokemon will always be more overpowered. Offensive mons will also always be more valuable than defensive mons. The difference between say, the Gen 3 vs Gen 4 and Gen 5 legends is mainly based on Groudon/Kyogre having great abilities to go with their offensive stat, whilst the others are crap by comparison (Pressure, Turboblaze/Teravolt). Rayquaza is one of those rare mons where both offensive stats are huge, which makes up for its relatively lackluster speed. Mewtwo despite having a poor ability has great speed and a great offensive stat. In Gen 8 and 9 we’ve now seen high speed box legends with great offensive stats and great abilities. And of course since all these guys are 670/680 they have good bulk as well.
The other issue with none legendary powercreep is how early route mons...still mostly suck ass, even in respect to earlier gens
The exception is Espathra and Lokix, but it doesn't matter when the Paradoxes and Palafin H. are easy to get, same for mid and later game mon power creep
And yeah, powercreep mostly is speed offense oriented. A glass cannon is great, but an immovable brick sucks (see pre Body Press Shuckle). If there were settings to have some matches start or permanently without stacking Trick Room, we may have more strats of slow mons seen outside VGC
The exception is Espathra and Lokix, but it doesn't matter when the Paradoxes and Palafin H. are easy to get, same for mid and later game mon power creep
And yeah, powercreep mostly is speed offense oriented. A glass cannon is great, but an immovable brick sucks (see pre Body Press Shuckle). If there were settings to have some matches start or permanently without stacking Trick Room, we may have more strats of slow mons seen outside VGC
I'll concur here. Even RBY Mewtwo, arguably the most busted THING ever put into a Pokemon game relative to the entire roster it existed with, was at least a game of having a half-dozen ways to use it to position yours better than the opponent's, and GSC Snorlax to a much less oppressive extent was also absurdly versatile.
Like these two could be compared to Queen pieces in Chess, where they do a ton at once but still need you to pilot them well to get around the opposing one or a multi-piece move to answer them. SS Zacian is just shoving the enemy with bigger numbers than they are capable of shoving you with on anything besides their own Zacian. There's no dimension to playing it, just a power level that suppresses anything besides itself and 2 answers.
I mean, it shouldn't be. Plenty of types have that, it's only notable because the Steel moves with a power above 80 that aren't signatures are Iron Tail (absolutely atrocious accuracy for a move with only 100 power), Meteor Mash (only learned by like 5 Pokémon of which 3 are actually Steel), Steel Roller (utter trash that fails without Terrain, while also destroying the Terrain), and Steel Beam (which eats half the user's HP).
It's notability only exists because Steel's gimped even worse than Fighting in terms of generic move choice.
Yeah as obnoxious as they were to face when legal at least they got creative with designing insanely optimized mons this gen. It seems like GF tried to balance broken mons in Gen 8 around having really poor coverage but unsurprisingly that doesn't work when you can just click Wicked Blow or Fishious Rend repeatedly. (It's also funny that Tera gets introduced in the gen right after they decided to do that.)
Tera makes me sad
As a solution to Hidden Power post split, I love it. Tera Blast factoring what stat you want is great
But for the granting of STAB and typing and universal application of it, it became as busted as Z Moves were for already good mons in practice. Only no item is needed
I was a heavy Tera supporter early this Gen, and still think it's the best of the gimmicks...but I'm still sad
As a solution to Hidden Power post split, I love it. Tera Blast factoring what stat you want is great
But for the granting of STAB and typing and universal application of it, it became as busted as Z Moves were for already good mons in practice. Only no item is needed
I was a heavy Tera supporter early this Gen, and still think it's the best of the gimmicks...but I'm still sad
Zamazenta was done dirty in Gen 8.
No King's Shield and Body Press instantly set it up for failure. Behemoth Bash should've worked off its defense too.
There are defensive powerhouses, but Zamazenta wasn't really built to be one. I don't think it ever had a recovery move.
I see it more as a bulky offense mon in terms of design.
At least now its getting the spotlight in VGC, where as Zacian is considered mid, while Zama is one of the best legendaries in the meta rn.
Oh how the turn tables have turned.
I'm going to go on a little tangent here and post my own unpopular opinion; I truly believe Zacian shouldn't have been nerfed.
Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?
Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?
Yes, it is broken. YES. But that's the point! It is a box/restricted legendary, it is not supposed to be balanced, it is supposed to go out there and kill stuff. The fact that Zamazenta got nerfed as well just because their stats should be exactly the same just rubs salt in the wound (just don't tell that to Poliwrath and Dustox, OK?). Cynic me wonders, if Game Freak had unleashed RBY Mewtwo after generation 7, would it have been nerfed as well?
Has Game Freak ever reversed a nerf?