BL hail no longer BL

ChronoSquare

Totally original team here, it's a team with Wallrein! Oooo! And it's my first RMT! Ooooooo!

The idea I got when I saw Dragontamer's Wallrein team was to use it not just with the often unreliable toxic spikes, but also with the possible combination of spikes and stealth rock. As a further feature, when I got to making it I decided on against using any OU-rated pokemon, just to be different, and have still fared better than my other teams vs mostly OU teams. However, I noticed that on Smogon's now-working home page that Abomasnow's overusage of hail team has now gotten him listed as an OU pokemon, which would violate my sub-theme of BL or lower pokemon. As such, I am now open to replace some pokemon with a possibly better OU, but I'm not sure who could replace what. So I'm asking for some help on tuning this up.


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Abomasnow "Pinesol"
Relaxed @ Leftovers
252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SDef
Substitute
Leech Seed
Blizzard
Focus Punch

Dragontamer may have presented the idea to the community, perhaps moves, but I'm not sure he said anything about EVs. I've chosen to go for a bulkier build to make Abomasnow live longer, especially since it's the only one that resists Earthquake. Despite having only two weak to EQ, with no fliers switching often is a trouble. Aboma also performs well in walling Starmies who lack Psychic, which otherwise leaves Aboma sore.


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Tentacruel "King KRuel"
Careful @ Black Sludge; Liquid Ooze
252 HP/124 Def/132 SDef
Toxic Spikes
Rapid Spin
Surf
Sleep Talk
Completely utilitarian, it acts as Aboma's special sink for all things the team can't handle, like flamethrowers or sleep status. (Sleep talk surf crit haxed it a kill once... lmfao) Honestly, past being a special wall and setting up toxic spikes/rapid spinning I'm not sure what to do with it, which is why I gave it sleep talk. (Before that, it had been Screech to try a few more switches.) It doesn't even end up rapid spinning very much, as since it has little to offer the team once its spikes are up, it becomes the first pokemon I let die if I need a free switch-in to something else, which is why I've focused its EVs more defensively, to not die to any random attack sent at it. Dunno if this would be optimal EV spread or not...

Liquid ooze because it has a chance of getting some damage through leech seed whereas otherwise clear body gives me nothing, as Tentacruel isn't going to be worrying about stats really.


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Walrein "ReinO'Pain"
Bold @ Leftovers; Ice Body
220 HP/240 Def/36 SDef/12 Spd
Protect
Roar
Surf
Substitute
Standard Wallrein. This team is actually from a few months ago I started using it on shoddy, but didn't pay attention to shoddybattle until a few days ago, and looking at the EVs given it again... I'm not sure I know where I got them from. Possibly one of the analysises...? I don't have very much experience in what pokemon have what stats/what speeds to beat, so if there's nothing 169 speed would end up beating, I'll just put it into sdef... I think it could really use it. I think I have the log saved... it was just Walrein vs. Cressy, Salamence, and Togekiss; it took down all but the Kiss, who won the stallwar because it was resttalk, and had two turns of not using moves...



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Froslass "Frostbite"
Timid @ Focus Sash
4 HP/252 SAtk/252 Spd
Spikes
Thunderbolt
Blizzard
Destiny Bond
Play with Froslass usually consists of her laying down a layer of spikes and being saved by the destiny bond, useful for taking out annoyances the team otherwise has trouble taking out, like Cresselia or Gyara before it can get more than 1 dragon dance off.

Froslass was of my own idea to use, I liked it before I saw Dragontamer's thread on Stallrein, and decided to use it of my own accord, before Dragontamer revealed the other three of his team.


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Arcanine "Liger Zero"
Adamant @ Choice Scarf, Intimidate
20 HP/252 Atk/236 Spd
Thunder Fang
Extremespeed
Flare Blitz
Crunch
Arcanine is the easiest pokemon to replace in my team, as its primary function is to give speed to my team, and to fill the role of coverage. Intimidate helps it to be a sort of pseudo-defensive wall, lessening physical blows helps when I don't have a true physical wall of sorts, and doesn't make its additional rock weakness as crippling. Flare blitz takes care of steels like Metagross and scarfcross (though the only one I ran into was Jolly, and faster than me so it surprised me :/), Thunder Fang is for Gyara, but after testing it in-battle I'm not so sure about its reliability (only worked cause I got flinch), and Crunch helps me to get the jump on ghosts/psychics. Espeed just for filler, and priority.


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Mamoswine "Ice Age"
Adamant @ Brightpowder; Snow Cloak
160 HP/252 Atk/96 Def
Ice Shard
Stealth Rocks
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Mamoswine has really grown on me. Indispensable for KO'ing the dragons, and EVed defensively so it too can take some hits, and as I don't know what I'd want to outspeed with Mamo. Brightpowder on here and Sludge on Cruel because ideally, I do want to try to stick to item clause as closely as possible (but here both rein and aboma need the recovery), and I've had a good deal of hax with this before. Still, it isn't enough where I'm going to switch in Mamoswine under hail to make a stone edge miss as Mamo's damage is enough where I would hate to lose him early on.


So that is my team. No threat list because, well I've stayed up all night and have class soon; I couldn't get to sleep... and can't really think right now. Compared to other teams I've made in shoddy, this one definitely has the best record of them. And, I'm looking to get it in-game as well to use over Wi-Fi, because as I've seen teams that are unprepared to the idea of hail and/or lack a spinner have lots of trouble against it. But also, I've had to restart recently because I lost my game (shiny infernape in less than 30 tries is not worth losing what I had T_T) and as such don't have stock built up suck as good IV/natured dittos, etc. Which means that it would be harder to get hidden powers, IE I would like to try to avoid using hidden power if possible.

Thanks for any help in advance! :) (If I had known it would close after one day I would've jumped into that battling tutorship program you guys are running...)

P.S. FYI I choose nicknames so they would fit in-game, so I won't have to come up with new ones for in-game.
 
There are a couple of issues I have with this team if you don't mind :-p

1. Abomasnow Lead -- You don't need hail that early. While Abomasnow might be able to stay in on maybe Bronzong and Hippowdon... you're going to be switching out on T-Tar, Gyarados, Salamence, Infernape, Weavile, Roserade, Gengar... essentially the entire boat-load of top 15 leads currently on Shoddybattle. Find a better lead.

Arcanine might work as a lead, but I know just about everything will beat Abomasnow. Further, lead with a non-ice pokemon. As soon as people know you have a hail team, they adopt their strategy to face you. Hide the true intention of your team with a non-ice non-blizzard lead, and capitalize on one of the free switches to Abomasnow to start up the hail and throw their counter-strategy away (bulky waters generally are easy for Aboamsnow to switch in)

This is even more important for your team. There are only 2 pokemon with Blizzard, Abomasnow and Froslass. From there, only Walrein benefits from the hail. Your team is nice in that you don't rely on hail too much, take advantage of this fact and start hail up late. That way you don't have to worry about early sandstream leads like Hippowdon who you should outrun... but Hippo will always setup the sand because of his lower speed.

2. Rock Resist. The need for a rock resist is amplified by lead Abomasnow. Tyranitar opens, Abomasnow is slower and hail starts. Thus, Abomasnow switches out in fear of Stone Edge to... who? Tentacruel can't take it, and Mamoswine is 2-hit KOed. Snow cloak helps of course, but luck is still against you (>50% chance Mamo gets hit by Stone Edge). Similarly, no one can really come in on a Stone Edge Gyarados. Mamo gets killed by waterfall on the next turn.

That said, Switching to Froslass / Mamo isn't that bad of an idea when up against a rock attack. (Snow Cloak + Brightpowder really helps) In fact, that was my original strategy. Nonetheless, it is an extremely unreliable means of countering arguably one of the best attack types in the game (after Ice :-p)

3. Walrein's EV spread -- The speed is there to outrun Skarmory, one of the most common phazers. That way, you phaze out Skarm before it phazes you out. To further the pain, Drill Peck Skarm doesn't break your sub :-p

With that said, put 44 Speed EVs on Walrein, or 48 Speed EVs to outrun the Skarms who put 4 speed EVs on themselves. Else, you run the risk of Skarm prematurely ending your stalling fest.
 
I like cold weather, and I wish we would get some snow here... primarily because I will not have to shovel it if we do.

Anyways! If you are looking for something to replace Abomasnow, how about Articuno? I am 90% sure it is still a BL pokemon, and it can switch in on EQs as well. You could also give it hail and have it hold a Cold Stone (or whatever the hail longevity item is).

As for Tentacruel, Regice may be an adequate replacement. Although he cannot Rapid Spin, his Sp. Def. is just as good as Tentacruel's. He also will not get damaged by the hail and doesn't share another EQ weakness. Additionally, you could have him as a T-wave spreader to make the opponent softer for your other attackers.

Also, if you do stick with Abomasnow, you might want to add hail on at least on other Pokemon. That way the Tyranitar/Hippowodon or any other weather team will have more trouble keeping their weather up than just coming in after you.
 
He has a stallrein, who's strategy revolves around 32+ turns of hail. Only Abomasnow can give hail that long, so Abomasnow must stay.

Tentacruel is the perfect counterpart for Abomasnow. Abomasnow is weak to poison, fire, and fighting, which Tentacruel resists. Tentacruel is weak to ground and electric, which Abomasnow resists. Further, spinning away rocks is a priority on any Ice team.
 
Hmm, okay. Thanks for the advice from the originator himself :D
Using the ever-so useful plugin, I changed Walrein's EVs to 220hp/216def/44spd/28sdef to reach 123/120 defense tiers pretty spot on.

The idea of starting up hail late is something I can definitely try to work with, just as soon as I figure out a good lead to replace Abomasnow. So I'm looking for rock resists, with the ability to use fire/electric attacks and can pack a punch... A ground type seems the only way to go for me; fighting invites flying moves, which none of my pokes resist, and steel adds both fighting and fire weaknesses shared by the ice type, the former destroying me w/o froslass and the latter wreaking havoc if Tenta has bit the dust. The only ground that can use electric moves outside of HP are the Nidos, but I fear that Nidoking is too weak to take down Gyarados (not to mention Gyara could outrun it with one DD, whereas it couldnot outspeed Arca)... alas that there is no Electric/fighting or rock/fighting pokemon out there... (Also, I call BS on ground not resisting fire :/)

I think a temporary solution until I solve this is to trade sub for protect and FP for grass knot on Abomasnow. I find myself running Aboma in to meet many a water type, whos moves generally he resists, so knot seems good. (Or should I go with wood hammer... dunno which would hit key waters harder; vappy, swampert, starmie, milotic)

Yeah, I'm running into the problem of Salamence too. Draco Meteor, specs or not, scores a 2HKO on nearly all of the pokes, even Cruel. A steel to resist that is inviting... but again I fear the shared fighting/fire weakness.
 
ChronoSquare said:
Hmm, okay. Thanks for the advice from the originator himself :D
Using the ever-so useful plugin, I changed Walrein's EVs to 220hp/216def/44spd/28sdef to reach 123/120 defense tiers pretty spot on.

The idea of starting up hail late is something I can definitely try to work with, just as soon as I figure out a good lead to replace Abomasnow. So I'm looking for rock resists, with the ability to use fire/electric attacks and can pack a punch... A ground type seems the only way to go for me; fighting invites flying moves, which none of my pokes resist, and steel adds both fighting and fire weaknesses shared by the ice type, the former destroying me w/o froslass and the latter wreaking havoc if Tenta has bit the dust. The only ground that can use electric moves outside of HP are the Nidos, but I fear that Nidoking is too weak to take down Gyarados (not to mention Gyara could outrun it with one DD, whereas it couldnot outspeed Arca)... alas that there is no Electric/fighting or rock/fighting pokemon out there... (Also, I call BS on ground not resisting fire :/)
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Don't try and resist fire / fighting simultaniously. You already got Tentacruel for that. It is more important to focus on common attacks, instead of covering every single possible attack combo out there.

For example, aside from Infernape and Blazikin, who is going to use fire / fighting? I mean, No Guard Machamp and Primape can use Fire... but only off of their pathetic Sp. Atk.

With Fighting, think about covering Rock / Fighting / Ground, which is commonly seen with virtually every fighting type. Close Combat / Stone Edge / Earthquake recks the current metagame. Narrowing down the choices to guys who resist these or have a decent amount of defenses... Gengar resists 2/3, Bronzong resists 2/3 and is bulky enough to take most fighting attacks, Flygon resists 2/3 as well.

Fortunately, there are many good fire/fighting resists if you want them anyway. Slowbro/king not only resists those attacks, but has Flamethrower + Blizzard avaliable. The only other pokemon who has Flamethrower + Blizzard with a decent Sp. Attack is Dragonite, who is also a nice fighting/fire resist as well as a decent tank. Unfortunately, Dragonite doesn't help your rock weakness.

Garchomp is a great rock / fire resist, and your team is loaded with ice resists to take out Garchomp's weakness. Consider him as well.

I think a temporary solution until I solve this is to trade sub for protect and FP for grass knot on Abomasnow. I find myself running Aboma in to meet many a water type, whos moves generally he resists, so knot seems good. (Or should I go with wood hammer... dunno which would hit key waters harder; vappy, swampert, starmie, milotic)

Yeah, I'm running into the problem of Salamence too. Draco Meteor, specs or not, scores a 2HKO on nearly all of the pokes, even Cruel. A steel to resist that is inviting... but again I fear the shared fighting/fire weakness.
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As a temporary solution, how do you think Choice Band Arcanine would do? Flare Blitz OHKOs a lot of the top 15, Ninjask fears Extreme Speed and will BP out an Intimidate, and Gyarados might get hurt by Thunder Fang (run damage calcs on that...). As long as you can deal with Heatran switch-ins, you ought to be good.

Specs Draco Meteor is a bitch to deal with >_> Spam more blizzard... lol. Even Blissey ain't the right choice because of the threat of MixMence. Deal with it just like everyone else, sacrifice a pokemon and move on >_>
 
After reading through some of Dragontamer's advice, I think Heatran is probably much better over Arcanine. Scarf or even Stalk version would benefit this team. Heatran can serve as a decent Salamence counter too.
 
Only 2 members of your team have any form of recovery, 4/6 are weak to stealth rock and your spinner is one of those 4 that has no form of recovery. Your team just gets generally worn down.

Hard hitting CBers are also going to give you problems due to the lack of recovery. You have nothing to come in and consistently take Heracross or Garchomp hits.

I just think hail stall teams are fundamentally flawed unless you fill the last 3 spots after Abom/Tenta/Walrein with just about 3 perfect pokemon.
 
i run a hail team and its decent, even beat goofball, top player on the ladder in shoddy
one thing thats essential in a hail is a ghost type a) to block rapid spin b) to prevent scarfcross or any other fast fighting type from rampaging your team (tentacruel although it does resist fighting wont survive many CCs for long)
i run gengar but you can choose other ghosts too
 
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