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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I mean, sure, that is true, but its a hell of a lot more believable that they made a WHOLE DARN TYPING to nerf two, and let's be real about this, bad mons that didn't really have any sort of success besides maybe Sableye being a potentially, and this is a big potentially, niche pick in Gen 5 Doubles (GF doesn't care as much about singles, besides a niche 3v3 format in Japan).
Your "link" is to one wikia page, which is known to be unreliable and easily edited, which you yourself even said that somebody should do.
If there was a new dark/ghost type that might be broken due to this, like aegislash was for steel/ghost, then there would be some credibility. The closest we have is Mega Sableye, which was released in ORAS, not even XY, which makes it very, very unlikely they did it to balance it.
Compare that to the steel and fighting types, who even in VGC were powerful, and them getting nerfs is a lot more believable.
This is just a dumb arguement, can we please move on with it. Nothing is really being gained for this.
You're still missing the point. I stated it was in part, not the entire flipping reason. Obviously, Dragons were a big part and I never disputed that. I even provided yet another source nobody else did. If you want to dismiss the rest, we should dismiss everything including some things you said. Not just cherry pick based on what you find believable for arbitrary reasons.
I said to edit the Wiki page as a quip because people like you specifically kept saying it was silly or dumb. I didn't mean it literally.
Mega Sableye was released in gen 7, but the typing itself was discussed among fans as having no weaknesses before that. I have no official quotes I can find on this in 2024. From a game design perspective, you could obviously see how that could lead to problems with future designs even if current ones were more limited in impact. And they did implement a future Mega design with that Dark/Ghost typing. I really don't see why this logic is so hard to understand, especially compared to some of the other points brought up from thin air.
I do agree this is an unimportant matter that blew up. But I have a right to defend myself, especially when there are clear double standards here.
My issue with the ORAS Mega Sableye comparison is twofold.
1.) Mega Sableye completely monopolized hazards for the user. If one was present at team preview then someone probably wasn't getting hazards up at all. And Sab was a very safe lead thanks to Gen 6 Mega mechs letting it benefit from Prankster.
2.) Mega Sableye's existence led to major stagnation in team building, to the point where it was mostly found on The One Viable Stall Team.
Gholdengo is more of a symptom of the current hazards meta that's been created by a lack of removal, power creep leading to offensive powerhouses exerting major pressure and cleaving through teams (and thus fast game speed), and the general usefulness of Spikes than any sort of cause in itself, and is not comparable to Mega Sableye choking life out of ORAS because it stopped anyone from playing the game outright.
1.) Mega Sableye completely monopolized hazards for the user. If one was present at team preview then someone probably wasn't getting hazards up at all. And Sab was a very safe lead thanks to Gen 6 Mega mechs letting it benefit from Prankster.
2.) Mega Sableye's existence led to major stagnation in team building, to the point where it was mostly found on The One Viable Stall Team.
Gholdengo is more of a symptom of the current hazards meta that's been created by a lack of removal, power creep leading to offensive powerhouses exerting major pressure and cleaving through teams (and thus fast game speed), and the general usefulness of Spikes than any sort of cause in itself, and is not comparable to Mega Sableye choking life out of ORAS because it stopped anyone from playing the game outright.
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The power level in gen9 is insane. I don't think we can compare old bans to the present, because it's true that most of the mons that exist in OU (as top tiers I mean) would probably get banned in a couple of days in any other gen. We have to be really cautious while choosing what the suspect might be because we're in a really big "broken checks broken" scenario, imo at least.
Like, imagine we just drop Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt or Iron Valiant in Gen7/8. I'm saying those examples as I could instead choose Gholdengo, Garganacl, Kingambit, Zamazenta with Body Press, Kyurem, Ogerpon... Stuff that hits like a truck and would be bonkers in any other tier. Like, WWake or Iron Moth are "Only" really good in gen9. Hell, a Dark Type Pokémon with Knock Off that can set spikes while attacking the opponent with a 95 base physical attack it's balanced in OU and anyone would call it a problem. (Because it isn't)
There are so many threats in the tier that an objectively broken mon like Darkrai is idk, 8th, 9th? Candidate in the discussion for a broken fact in the tier.
Fun fact about gen9 OU, did you know that half the mons from the tier are either unbanned from gen7/8 ubers or new mons from this gen? That's the power level we're at now. So again, we can call a lot of names like Zama, Kyurem, Ogerpon... And on first glance I would agree to probably any of those mons, but the consequences are huge.
Nothing in this post is meant as an attack to either Finch nor anyone in the council or saying "you're not doing enough". I know this is, by far, the gen with more bans and with the most active OU council member I've ever seen.
To end this post, I'm gonna go through every candidate for a ban in the tier (imo) and do a brief quick list of pros and cons of having them in the tier from my point of view.
Like, imagine we just drop Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt or Iron Valiant in Gen7/8. I'm saying those examples as I could instead choose Gholdengo, Garganacl, Kingambit, Zamazenta with Body Press, Kyurem, Ogerpon... Stuff that hits like a truck and would be bonkers in any other tier. Like, WWake or Iron Moth are "Only" really good in gen9. Hell, a Dark Type Pokémon with Knock Off that can set spikes while attacking the opponent with a 95 base physical attack it's balanced in OU and anyone would call it a problem. (Because it isn't)
There are so many threats in the tier that an objectively broken mon like Darkrai is idk, 8th, 9th? Candidate in the discussion for a broken fact in the tier.
Fun fact about gen9 OU, did you know that half the mons from the tier are either unbanned from gen7/8 ubers or new mons from this gen? That's the power level we're at now. So again, we can call a lot of names like Zama, Kyurem, Ogerpon... And on first glance I would agree to probably any of those mons, but the consequences are huge.
Nothing in this post is meant as an attack to either Finch nor anyone in the council or saying "you're not doing enough". I know this is, by far, the gen with more bans and with the most active OU council member I've ever seen.
To end this post, I'm gonna go through every candidate for a ban in the tier (imo) and do a brief quick list of pros and cons of having them in the tier from my point of view.
 Pros: Great glue mon. Helps a lot aganist physical offense and has a really good speed tier that again, facilitates making a BO team for example, while also being a solid wincon. It's particularly really good aganist Kingambit, a mon you always have to think about in the builder. In that sense, it's a healthy pressence. There are some ways to play around Zamazenta depending of its set, so you can technically adapt. Cons: Zamazenta can outright win from team preview aganist some teams, and giving it one free turn or just getting tera wrong means losing the game on the spot. It's a wincon, yeah, but a really easy one to pull off. And it really constricts teambuilding. And you depend on having the right tool aganist it, as it can choose which check it wants to destroy and you won't know until it's revealed. This is, again, without counting that once you lose you Gliscor/Ghost, you will just lose to Body Press on the spot 90% of games.  Pros: Kyurem is a easy to splash breaker that can go special, physical and mixed, so you can actually be pretty creative with its moveset and EVs. As said with Zamazenta, it can also serve as a wincon, but it's mostly an early/ mid game breaker. If not using HDB, which lacks power compared to other sets (relatively, we all know it's still hella strong) you need hazard removal support, or it gets quickly chipped by hazards. Cons: Bro just hits too much. Like, specs does a quarter to Blissey with Ice Beam, and Blizzard (which can be used alongside Glowking) destroys everything in the tier once it touches the field. It punishes too much, he hits too hard for a 95 base speed mon. Also, while being splashable on builder is cool to build, is a nightmare to play around it. You switched your special wall thinking it would freeze dry? DD Icicle Spear. The only thing keeping this mon from a ban already imo is that priority grabs him by the neck, and that without pivoting it's really hard to switch in. But still, it slams the tier as hard as a mon can.  Pros: If you need a BO/Stall breaker, this is the easiest choice to build around. It has a lot of choices to build around; SD, Trailblaze, U-turn, Knock Off, Play Rough, Low Kick, Encore... So it can't win everything at the same time, and unlike any other mon in the tier, you already know her tera, so that won't catch you by surprise. However... Cons: I already said this with Kyurem, but it just happens that this little fella checks almost all the same boxes, but the exception that 1. She's not weak to rocks and 2. Water/Grass is a good typing to switch into some mons (Iron Treads for example) and that water immunity it's amazing with stuff like Primarina or Alomomola in the tier. The thing is yes, Ogerpon can't just mopped you from the get go, but while you're guessing her moveset you have to tank a 100 base power physical attack, with a high crit chance and no contact effects to punish it. Also, all of her moves get a 20% boost, which is outright comical.  Pros: Gholdengo is the main character in Web teams, and it's also a really good choice in any hazard stacking team. So in that way, it's a really good mon to start a team around. It's unique type and ability grants the ability to stop any hazard removal move excepting tidy up, so again, it's mandatory in order to maintain some team styles in the tier. Gholdengo can be played around and while its nature is quite "unfair" most of the time, you can punish it with a lot of common mons. Also, the teams that play around it can quickly crumbleif you take it from the field and clear hazards. At the same time, it switching in to avoid the hazard removal can result in a pivot from something like Corv to a strong team mate, so again, it's not a perfect wall that can switch in forever. Depending on its sets and EVs it can lose to quite a good portion of the tier in fact. Cons: That is if Gholdengo couldn't abuse tera to bypass those checks and win the hazard war, or you always knew its set, which you don't. You can force Gholdengo, yeah, but it's so, so bulky and has so much longevity, than it can outlast most of the mons in the tier. Daddy Buzzwole made a post in this thread comparing it to BW Reuniclus, which I agree with. Most of the times this mon can just get what it wants.  Pros: A steel type option that can fit in every single team. Kingambit is, in my opinion, the most splashable mon in SVOU. Are you running BO? Kingambit is a good choice. Oh, an HO team? You can use Kingambit. A weather team? It's not a bad idea to fit Kingambit as a cleaner? Balance? Kingambit. Webs? Kingambit. Stall is the only playstyle where I think Kingambit doesn't fit. Also, Kingambit is the strongest wincon in the game and the most used mon, so idk if this is a "pro", but it is a really big part of what makes SVOU the tier it is. But negatively, and positively. Cons: Unfair, that's it. This mon isn't banned from the tier because of the points I made and that some stuff like Zamazenta and Tusk can most of the time check it. But beyond that? You would think that you actually need SD to clean, but sometimes just sucker + stab/terablast/ Low kick just cleans games with no issue. Its power leaves bullshit that Wogre's Ivy Crudgel outclassed, which is stupid to think about. 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 340-400 (86.9 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO Gambit has a chance to OHKO with a priority move a base 130 HP 90 Defense Pokémon  While its pressence is a big part of the identity of the tier, you can easily argue too it's not the healthy one.  Pros: I honestly disagree with this one, but it has a good part of the playerbase in favor of it so I'm gonna mention it and try to express their points. Roaring Moon is stopped a lot of times by hazards, priority and an abuseable base dragon/dark typing. It has, actually, really good bulk, but most of the times it falls to super effective or even neutral hits after a couple of turns. The mon itself, for me, has its shortcomings. Despite this... Cons: Roaring Moon can be paired with Zama or Gambit to just suffocate their common checks and win from there. Not only that, it's true that most of the time you don't really have to setup to leave a huge mark on the battle. Taunt can disrupt a lot of walls, as can the jawlock set. I'd say its sun sets are the worst ones, but I think I should mention them too. Also, Knock Off is always good. I'm gonna mention here somethin Heatranator said once and I 100% agree with and it's that this mon is really, really unexplored. With time, maybe my point of view could change a lot.  Pros: Solid check to physical attackers, good to stop progress from the opponent a lot of times and can easily deal with hazard stacking teams most of the time. It's a really good fit in stall, BO and balance teams, and I'd actually say its SD set could be used more in Webs teams. Its status "immunity" once it gets its orb activated it's really good to support some mons, and being able to negate Garganacl's Salt Cure chip it's cool. Really good glue and potentially cleaner overall. Cons: Idk if you folks ever played ADV, I really like the tier and I play from time to time. I think Gliscor is like Skarm, but if Skarm got the ability to mega evolve. Status immunity after a single protect and also had Knock Off while healing every turn, this mon is so, so hard to punish. If you get one turn wrong and it toxics a mon on the switch in or you just guessed wrong, it wins the 1v1. Great tera abuser, and its SD sets are just sending it over the roof. You have no way to predict if it's gonna toxic spikes, or just SD and Facade your defensive core after a tera normal, because both sets can abuse Protect. |
If you all think this is a problem of power level or threat saturation, then play one of the lower tiers. UU is rich with some OU Pokémon of old. Why continue to do something you express discontent with, when there’s a solution in your face? You’re choosing frustration. Or just don’t play lol
The generational mechanic is stupid, there’s a conspiracy by the people running the site to keep it around in the tier (their prerogative tbf) and it’s prob not going to change. That’s gen 9.
I’ve found the most fun in accepting that reality and exercising my resistance through the only counterplay to Tera: Stellar typing . Viva la revolucion!
The generational mechanic is stupid, there’s a conspiracy by the people running the site to keep it around in the tier (their prerogative tbf) and it’s prob not going to change. That’s gen 9.
I’ve found the most fun in accepting that reality and exercising my resistance through the only counterplay to Tera: Stellar typing . Viva la revolucion!
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I admittedly don't play OU much recently, but from my perspective, I think this is a really good writeup of some of the top threats. Super detailed. Great work.
One odd inconsistency in this post that I wanted to ask about was Roaring Moon. In the Pros section for each mon, you mention some of the metagame benefits for each Pokémon, along with some personal strengths and flaws. This wasn't the case for Roaring Moon--here, you just talked about things that hold it back from being truly incredible without mentioning it's overall role and impact on the tier.
I'm genuinely curious to ask, is this because you believe it has no metagame benefits, such as Zama serving as a nice anti-offense mon or Kyurem being a splashable breaker? Or are there some that you just overlooked when writing this post?
First of all, thank you for your kind words:)
Second, I honestly overlook a bit the RMoon part, sorry :'). I think that there are some positive things about RMoon in the tier. For example, I think it is a really good wallbreaker that can easily make progress with Knock Off, both as a sun and HO slot. I think that bulky sets with Roost have a lot of potential and could be tested too, those could be fun:)
No need to apologize, it was a great post!
Thanks for clarifying. Figured it was an oversight of some sort but was curious to see. For me personally, Roaring Moon's archetype (versatile fast offensive Pokémon with usable bulk) is one that can be inconsistent--some serve as healthy options that help check a lot of the metagame but others serve as unhealthy threats that lack metagame benefits, so I was curious on if Moon was in the latter camp or not. Doesn't seem like it from your description. As you said, though, a lot of room to develop it.
I must say that my opinion must be taken with a grain of salt, because, while I play almost every day on a decent ladder (around 1750s up to 1900s) I'm quite bad at tournaments...And of course, there a lot of better players than me in this thread ^^"
So maybe I'm wrong on this one hehe
Gen 7 player here dropping in, Gouging Fire and Raging Bolt probably wouldn't be overbearing or even top tier in Gen 7. You have to remember that Gen 7 OU is the best Landorus-Therian has ever been, and scarf landorus destroys both of them. Hell there's an argument that iron valiant wouldn't even be overpowered because of how the speed and power levels are in USUM OU (I'm assuming that there is no booster energy and you would need sun to use proto/quark) and also the existence of Mega Scizor and Mega Alakazam. Gen 7 OU might be the only generation in history where you COULD drop those 3 pokemon and they'd probably be fine for the tier.
Smogon bureaucracy is not just affecting current gen OU, free gens 1-5 from modern tiering policy you fucking cowards
I don’t disagree with the notion that there are banworthy in the tier. You can make the argument for numerous Pokemon and I am all ears. My issue is that I think the wrong targets and conclusions are being drawn.
Gholdengo and Gliscor are amazing Pokemon with unique, challenging-to-minimize presences, but neither are “the problem” or even around the main problem in the metagame. The strain they put on team construction is nowhere near that of other things and Gliscor, while incredibly good, is also possible to make into a non-factor with the right teambuilding conventions.
I also think calling the tier match-uppy is more a reflection on teambuilding struggles and finding the limits of the metagame rather than the actual metagame. The fact is that not every single fringe Pokemon or archetype is built equally and trying them is naturally going to skew the matchup spectrum, but there’s many ways to find consistency in this metagame. This has been shown countless times over — and it can be found with offense, balance, and even some bulkier teams right now. Maybe the range of finding it is limited within each of these archetypes and groups of Pokemon, maybe that is more than you’d like it to be restricted, etc. But at the end of the day, that is the crux of this argument, which is entirely fine and valid, not that the tier is inherently more match-up driven than other metagames or iterations of this metagame.
If you take a step back and think about what restricts teambuilding the most, I would be baffled if people thought it was Zamazenta or Gholdengo over something like Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, or even NP Darkrai. The disparity in levels of counterplay is pretty damning just from a teambuilding perspective. You can of course argue about quality-of-life implications of Gholdengo and we can go through the philosophical runaround repeatedly, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently disqualifying about its presence.
I expect a tiering survey in about 2 weeks (give or take a few days) and I will do my best to cast a wide net and include what people feel to be worthy of including, but I think the scores on something like Gholdengo will remain low like they have been trending the last handful of surveys. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I anticipate heightened support on some other Pokemon though, but the jury is still out as to if that’s enough for action or not.
Gholdengo and Gliscor are amazing Pokemon with unique, challenging-to-minimize presences, but neither are “the problem” or even around the main problem in the metagame. The strain they put on team construction is nowhere near that of other things and Gliscor, while incredibly good, is also possible to make into a non-factor with the right teambuilding conventions.
I also think calling the tier match-uppy is more a reflection on teambuilding struggles and finding the limits of the metagame rather than the actual metagame. The fact is that not every single fringe Pokemon or archetype is built equally and trying them is naturally going to skew the matchup spectrum, but there’s many ways to find consistency in this metagame. This has been shown countless times over — and it can be found with offense, balance, and even some bulkier teams right now. Maybe the range of finding it is limited within each of these archetypes and groups of Pokemon, maybe that is more than you’d like it to be restricted, etc. But at the end of the day, that is the crux of this argument, which is entirely fine and valid, not that the tier is inherently more match-up driven than other metagames or iterations of this metagame.
If you take a step back and think about what restricts teambuilding the most, I would be baffled if people thought it was Zamazenta or Gholdengo over something like Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, or even NP Darkrai. The disparity in levels of counterplay is pretty damning just from a teambuilding perspective. You can of course argue about quality-of-life implications of Gholdengo and we can go through the philosophical runaround repeatedly, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently disqualifying about its presence.
I expect a tiering survey in about 2 weeks (give or take a few days) and I will do my best to cast a wide net and include what people feel to be worthy of including, but I think the scores on something like Gholdengo will remain low like they have been trending the last handful of surveys. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I anticipate heightened support on some other Pokemon though, but the jury is still out as to if that’s enough for action or not.
Also, I just want to point out how rude and damaging things like this are. Like take away the fact that it’s blatant misinformation for a second: you realize how awful this paints people who are in charge? And you realize that you’re saying this despite so much information on the contrary being available???
There was a public suspect, but it fell short. There were repeated surveys open to the public on it, but it fell short and wasn’t even close each time. There were numerous public threads on it, but it never got much support after the infancy of the metagame.
What conspiracy is there? I run this shit and I even voted for action on Tera at the beginning of the generation. Perhaps the real problem is people having the audacity to spread nonsense like this.
I thank arceus every day that the council were smarter than star and didn't unban sneasler at the beginning of DLC2 alongside the single best setup opportunity it has ever had in gliscor. I guarantee it would STILL be OU now if he was dropped. Now how do I complain about oldgen tiering policy in this post too...
I think that the biggest problem that gen9 has is building a team, by far. Yeah, if you prepare for ghold and Gliscor you can make them either irrelevant or a non-factor in some cases. And you can also prepare your team to eat Kingambit and Dark spam in general for breakfast.
Thing is, getting to that point while being okay (and I say okay, not even super good) aganist every strong thread in the meta is really difficult.
Nevertheless I 100% agree with you in that the tier is easier to build around that when Volc was allowed or some DLC1 eras. In fact, if my post from before sounded like "Teambuilding is impossible and I hate X mon" I apologize, because as I expressed in this thread before a couple of times (because I truly think it) building has improved a lot this last couple of months.
Tbh, I think that debating around Gholdeong pressence in the tier is a cool topic, but I'm guessing that most of the people in this thread that have posted more than me are a bit burnt about it XD
The real question is why the hell did they make it resist bug sob
As I alluded to earlier, I think Zama’s presence in the tier fixes more problems than it causes. There’s enough relevant counterplay to it that Zama feels manageable.
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 296-350 (76.2 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
There are other forms of Zama counterplay.
These guys can force Zama in to some capacity, making it use up its Dauntless Shield boost. This is important since Ironpress becomes less of a threat compared to how it’d normally be.
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 192-226 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 379-447 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 304-358 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Chipping Zama is also important as it doesn’t have reliable recovery (besides Rest). Gambit can also lure Zama with Tera Fairy Blast while the others cripple Zama with Knock or in Darkrai’s case, Wisp.
Like with any setup sweeper not named Ghold, Trick Scarfers are a way to defuse them. Zama isn’t staying in on Ghold or Val, but Darkrai and Meow are often Zama entry points, so securing Tricks is easier.
I believe Zama is a top 5 or top 3 mon rn. The dynamic it creates is meta warping but not meta constraining. It is eerily similar to another legendary dog with amazing bulk and access to a strong setup move that can sweep through unprepared teams with a variety of different options like Roar, Substitute, and Rest.
On the flip side
Wogre should be a priority for a suspect, as I find it to be partially responsible for some of the meta’s problems.
Threat Saturation?
When Wogre is crippling or killing the mons you need to check everything it becomes a problem. Especially since it threatens half the tier with an OHKO.
Matchup Fishing?
Wogre ruins Stall and Balance, forcing them to slap specific checks just for it, making it easier to fish with other mons. It also can fish itself with SD Trailblaze vs HO or Webs.
Constraint Teambuilding?
When you need to dedicate 1-2 slots for Wogre, it becomes a problem. Even then, Wogre can break through those checks because GameFreak made the mistake of giving it a broken non-contact move with Knock, perfect coverage, and a typing that threatens nearly every physical wall in the tier besides Skarm and Corv who either lose to Encore or lose to Gambit if they forgo Body Press for BB, or they just die outright.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 344-406 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Wogre would be fine with its good typing, base stats, and movepool, but because they wanted you to buy the DLCs, they made it so the masks give it an attack boost, giving it more than 140 Attack. Its comparable to another physically offensive Grass type, Kartana, but the 181 Attack mon is more balanced because it doesn’t have any good moves exceeding 90 BP, Grass/Steel has more resistances and more importantly, they all make contact. Wogre exists in a tier with few resists to its STAB combina to on and even so, most of them are threatened by Wogre’s sheer power and coverage.
TL;DR: Get the Dream stan outta here.
they had to appease the large base of insectophobes that play pokemon next question
Knock Off makes contact actually, why wouldn't it lmfao
As I alluded to earlier, I think Zama’s presence in the tier fixes more problems than it causes. There’s enough relevant counterplay to it that Zama feels manageable.
View attachment 637382Pult threatens Zama with Wisp and outspeeds. It doesn’t switch into Crunch and loses to the Tera Fire variants, but Pult is paired with mons that exploit that, or help bring it in such as Lando, and Gking. Plus Pult can predict this and U-Turn out into something else.
View attachment 637383This doesn’t check Ironpress but Helmet variants can force chip vs Zama and Knock to make that chip permanant. Thus it’s easier for its teammates to check it in the long-term.
View attachment 637384Cripples with T-Wave and outspeeds afterwards or uses Zama as an opportunity to setup. PhysD Ghold is one of the best checks to Zama the tier has to offer.
View attachment 637385Toxic Gliscor always beats non-Tera Steel, Sub, or Resto Chesto variants of Ironpress Zama. Even in those instances, Gliscor is commonly paired with other checks like Dragapult.
View attachment 637386Forces chip on Zama and punishes Tera Fire variants with EP. Lando also U-Turns into other mons that can exploit Zama, making it easier to check it.
View attachment 637387Booster Bolt can force huge chip and Tera Fairy to 1v1 it.
View attachment 637388Can pivot into a Crunch and threaten with Toxic, T-Wave, or Psychic STAB. Like Lando, it can pivot into other Zama checks.
View attachment 637389Can eat any hit from Zama and Flip Turn out into something else. It can also threaten with a burn.
View attachment 637390The standard Dnite set loses to Zama, but the best sets rn are the ones that don’t run it. Encore is huge into Zama, it can also run Jolly Tera Flying Blast to 1v1 it. Exploration with defensive sets can be considered. Stop running the fraud DD Three Attacks set, it’s bad into Fat and is easy to exploit with all the Tera Ghosts in the tier.
View attachment 637392Hatt beats all non-Steel move Zamas. If they do have Heavy Slam/Iron Head, then they aren’t Roar or Crunch, so just Tera Ghost on that mfer.
View attachment 637393Booster outspeeds and Encores it, while also threatening with Moonblast or forces a Tera. It can’t switch into Heavy Slam, but you don’t have to deal with the more polarizing Roar variant.
View attachment 637394Moonblast threatens an OHKO on Zama after chip while being able to tank a hit at full or even at half.
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 296-350 (76.2 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
View attachment 637395Beats Roar Zama but has trouble with Sub after Tera or Heavy Slam variants, even so, Clef threatens with Moonblast or T-Wave. Barb ruins Zama if it has been Knock’d earlier.
View attachment 637396Outspeeds and OHKOs Zama with Psycho while being able to tank a Crunch and force a Tera.
View attachment 637397View attachment 637398View attachment 637399No explanation needed.
View attachment 637400Loses pre-Tera, but Tera Fairy or Ghost Flame Body are great deterrents for Zama while punishing Tera Fire variants with EP.
View attachment 637401Fast Encore, eats a BP.
View attachment 637402Picking up in usage due to being annoying and checking threats like Zama. Stone Edge is rare in this meta and so is Tera Electric.
View attachment 637403Like Tusk, it forces chip onto Zama. Good with partners like Ghold.
View attachment 637404Like Zapdos, Stone Edge is rare and Molt forces a Tera or forces a switch which it can use to generate momentum via U-Turn.
View attachment 637405One of the hardest checks to Zama in the tier. Crunch is a 4HKO and even AoA sets don’t 2HKO it after rocks. You always heal up with Strength Sap and threaten with burns.
View attachment 637406Hard counter to Zama on Fat.
View attachment 637407Has to watch for Heavy Slam, but otherwise, it’s a good check. Both Wisp and Toxic can cripple Zama while Pain Spliting back its health.
View attachment 637408Underrated mon that’s good into a handful of meta threats like Valiant. It also beats Tera Fire variants of Zama. It has to watch for Sub or Tera Steel variants though.
View attachment 637409Scarf variants can cripple Zama with Trick.
View attachment 637410If you know you know.
There are other forms of Zama counterplay.
These guys can force Zama in to some capacity, making it use up its Dauntless Shield boost. This is important since Ironpress becomes less of a threat compared to how it’d normally be.
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 192-226 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 379-447 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 304-358 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Chipping Zama is also important as it doesn’t have reliable recovery (besides Rest). Gambit can also lure Zama with Tera Fairy Blast while the others cripple Zama with Knock or in Darkrai’s case, Wisp.
Like with any setup sweeper not named Ghold, Trick Scarfers are a way to defuse them. Zama isn’t staying in on Ghold or Val, but Darkrai and Meow are often Zama entry points, so securing Tricks is easier.
I believe Zama is a top 5 or top 3 mon rn. The dynamic it creates is meta warping but not meta constraining. It is eerily similar to another legendary dog with amazing bulk and access to a strong setup move that can sweep through unprepared teams with a variety of different options like Roar, Substitute, and Rest.
On the flip side
Wogre should be a priority for a suspect, as I find it to be partially responsible for some of the meta’s problems.
Threat Saturation?
When Wogre is crippling or killing the mons you need to check everything it becomes a problem. Especially since it threatens half the tier with an OHKO.
Matchup Fishing?
Wogre ruins Stall and Balance, forcing them to slap specific checks just for it, making it easier to fish with other mons. It also can fish itself with SD Trailblaze vs HO or Webs.
Constraint Teambuilding?
When you need to dedicate 1-2 slots for Wogre, it becomes a problem. Even then, Wogre can break through those checks because GameFreak made the mistake of giving it a broken non-contact move with Knock, perfect coverage, and a typing that threatens nearly every physical wall in the tier besides Skarm and Corv who either lose to Encore or lose to Gambit if they forgo Body Press for BB, or they just die outright.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 344-406 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Wogre would be fine with its good typing, base stats, and movepool, but because they wanted you to buy the DLCs, they made it so the masks give it an attack boost, giving it more than 140 Attack. Its comparable to another physically offensive Grass type, Kartana, but the 181 Attack mon is more balanced because it doesn’t have any good moves exceeding 90 BP, Grass/Steel has more resistances and more importantly, they all make contact. Wogre exists in a tier with few resists to its STAB combina to on and even so, most of them are threatened by Wogre’s sheer power and coverage.
TL;DR: Get the Dream stan outta here.
Phrasing could be a bit better but he's saying that Cudgel isn't a contact move + she gets knock/coverage/encore
Knock Off is a bad move actually because if you die to rocky helmet it doesn't remove the helmet. We should all stop using it because it sucks
Could you elaborate what specific checks are needed for Ogerpon-W? As well as how being forced to run 1-2 checks for it is any different than the other top tier mons forcing people to run 1-2 checks for them? I get that it hits hard, but is it really so much worst than the other threats in the tier that it requires priority over them?
As I alluded to earlier, I think Zama’s presence in the tier fixes more problems than it causes. There’s enough relevant counterplay to it that Zama feels manageable.
View attachment 637382Pult threatens Zama with Wisp and outspeeds. It doesn’t switch into Crunch and loses to the Tera Fire variants, but Pult is paired with mons that exploit that, or help bring it in such as Lando, and Gking. Plus Pult can predict this and U-Turn out into something else.
View attachment 637383This doesn’t check Ironpress but Helmet variants can force chip vs Zama and Knock to make that chip permanant. Thus it’s easier for its teammates to check it in the long-term.
View attachment 637384Cripples with T-Wave and outspeeds afterwards or uses Zama as an opportunity to setup. PhysD Ghold is one of the best checks to Zama the tier has to offer.
View attachment 637385Toxic Gliscor always beats non-Tera Steel, Sub, or Resto Chesto variants of Ironpress Zama. Even in those instances, Gliscor is commonly paired with other checks like Dragapult.
View attachment 637386Forces chip on Zama and punishes Tera Fire variants with EP. Lando also U-Turns into other mons that can exploit Zama, making it easier to check it.
View attachment 637387Booster Bolt can force huge chip and Tera Fairy to 1v1 it.
View attachment 637388Can pivot into a Crunch and threaten with Toxic, T-Wave, or Psychic STAB. Like Lando, it can pivot into other Zama checks.
View attachment 637389Can eat any hit from Zama and Flip Turn out into something else. It can also threaten with a burn.
View attachment 637390The standard Dnite set loses to Zama, but the best sets rn are the ones that don’t run it. Encore is huge into Zama, it can also run Jolly Tera Flying Blast to 1v1 it. Exploration with defensive sets can be considered. Stop running the fraud DD Three Attacks set, it’s bad into Fat and is easy to exploit with all the Tera Ghosts in the tier.
View attachment 637392Hatt beats all non-Steel move Zamas. If they do have Heavy Slam/Iron Head, then they aren’t Roar or Crunch, so just Tera Ghost on that mfer.
View attachment 637393Booster outspeeds and Encores it, while also threatening with Moonblast or forces a Tera. It can’t switch into Heavy Slam, but you don’t have to deal with the more polarizing Roar variant.
View attachment 637394Moonblast threatens an OHKO on Zama after chip while being able to tank a hit at full or even at half.
252+ SpA Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 296-350 (76.2 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
View attachment 637395Beats Roar Zama but has trouble with Sub after Tera or Heavy Slam variants, even so, Clef threatens with Moonblast or T-Wave. Barb ruins Zama if it has been Knock’d earlier.
View attachment 637396Outspeeds and OHKOs Zama with Psycho while being able to tank a Crunch and force a Tera.
View attachment 637397View attachment 637398View attachment 637399No explanation needed.
View attachment 637400Loses pre-Tera, but Tera Fairy or Ghost Flame Body are great deterrents for Zama while punishing Tera Fire variants with EP.
View attachment 637401Fast Encore, eats a BP.
View attachment 637402Picking up in usage due to being annoying and checking threats like Zama. Stone Edge is rare in this meta and so is Tera Electric.
View attachment 637403Like Tusk, it forces chip onto Zama. Good with partners like Ghold.
View attachment 637404Like Zapdos, Stone Edge is rare and Molt forces a Tera or forces a switch which it can use to generate momentum via U-Turn.
View attachment 637405One of the hardest checks to Zama in the tier. Crunch is a 4HKO and even AoA sets don’t 2HKO it after rocks. You always heal up with Strength Sap and threaten with burns.
View attachment 637406Hard counter to Zama on Fat.
View attachment 637407Has to watch for Heavy Slam, but otherwise, it’s a good check. Both Wisp and Toxic can cripple Zama while Pain Spliting back its health.
View attachment 637408Underrated mon that’s good into a handful of meta threats like Valiant. It also beats Tera Fire variants of Zama. It has to watch for Sub or Tera Steel variants though.
View attachment 637409Scarf variants can cripple Zama with Trick.
View attachment 637410If you know you know.
There are other forms of Zama counterplay.
These guys can force Zama in to some capacity, making it use up its Dauntless Shield boost. This is important since Ironpress becomes less of a threat compared to how it’d normally be.
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 118-140 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 95-112 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 192-226 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 379-447 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 304-358 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Chipping Zama is also important as it doesn’t have reliable recovery (besides Rest). Gambit can also lure Zama with Tera Fairy Blast while the others cripple Zama with Knock or in Darkrai’s case, Wisp.
Like with any setup sweeper not named Ghold, Trick Scarfers are a way to defuse them. Zama isn’t staying in on Ghold or Val, but Darkrai and Meow are often Zama entry points, so securing Tricks is easier.
I believe Zama is a top 5 or top 3 mon rn. The dynamic it creates is meta warping but not meta constraining. It is eerily similar to another legendary dog with amazing bulk and access to a strong setup move that can sweep through unprepared teams with a variety of different options like Roar, Substitute, and Rest.
On the flip side
Wogre should be a priority for a suspect, as I find it to be partially responsible for some of the meta’s problems.
Threat Saturation?
When Wogre is crippling or killing the mons you need to check everything it becomes a problem. Especially since it threatens half the tier with an OHKO.
Matchup Fishing?
Wogre ruins Stall and Balance, forcing them to slap specific checks just for it, making it easier to fish with other mons. It also can fish itself with SD Trailblaze vs HO or Webs.
Constraint Teambuilding?
When you need to dedicate 1-2 slots for Wogre, it becomes a problem. Even then, Wogre can break through those checks because GameFreak made the mistake of giving it a broken non-contact move with Knock, perfect coverage, and a typing that threatens nearly every physical wall in the tier besides Skarm and Corv who either lose to Encore or lose to Gambit if they forgo Body Press for BB, or they just die outright.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 344-406 (86 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Wogre would be fine with its good typing, base stats, and movepool, but because they wanted you to buy the DLCs, they made it so the masks give it an attack boost, giving it more than 140 Attack. Its comparable to another physically offensive Grass type, Kartana, but the 181 Attack mon is more balanced because it doesn’t have any good moves exceeding 90 BP, Grass/Steel has more resistances and more importantly, they all make contact. Wogre exists in a tier with few resists to its STAB combina to on and even so, most of them are threatened by Wogre’s sheer power and coverage.
TL;DR: Get the Dream stan outta here.
I’m glad you asked.
Balance often needs more than one Wogre check because it’s so strong alone that it can rip through its checks, resulting in Wogre bulldozing through the rest of the team. Most of them also lack reliable recovery, so they susceptible to getting worn down.
The checks in question are cited as
These two take big chunks from Ivy and hate Knock, but they can threaten it out at least.
These three dragons can take on Wogre, but they get battered down over a course of a game and die to Play Rough.
One of the better checks imo, but Wogre can break through this after Multiscale is broken with SD boosted Tera Water Cudgel. It’s also not hard to break Multiscale since Wogre is often paired with RH Lando and mons that apply pressure to Dnite.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 257-303 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Adamant straight up kills after the smallest chip.
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Can switch into Wogre but gets 2HKOd by Pwhip and hates U-Turn. You also need to Tera in order to actually OHKO.
Can outspeed and threaten with Leaf Storm or Glare, but hates U-Turn variants. Also Serp isn’t great run due to current meta trends.
Dies to +2 Play Rough and is also not great rn. Too many common weaknesses and doesn’t even threaten much to Wogre.
Can pivot into Ivy and tank an unboosted Pwhip, but it dies after a SD.
Dies to +2 Knock and can be exploited by common Wogre teammates like Ghold.
Pex dies to +2 Whip and is free entry for alot of Wogre’s teammates. Same with Amoonguss who is probably the closest thing to a hard check.
this is why i run bulky band boom! who needs speed.
Thank you for the response. I guess my next question is what is so unique about this? The OU Tier is seemingly filled with threats that can 2HKO if not outright OHKO the tier after boosts, and the right coverage options. Look no further than Kingambit. So what makes Kingambit an essential pillar of the tier, and Ogerpon-W a menace to society? Does Ogerpon-W bring nothing to the tier, and does it have few to no weaknesses?I’m glad you asked.
Balance often needs more than one Wogre check because it’s so strong alone that it can rip through its checks, resulting in Wogre bulldozing through the rest of the team. Most of them also lack reliable recovery, so they susceptible to getting worn down.
The checks in question are cited as
These two take big chunks from Ivy and hate Knock, but they can threaten it out at least.
These three dragons can take on Wogre, but they get battered down over a course of a game and die to Play Rough.
One of the better checks imo, but Wogre can break through this after Multiscale is broken with SD boosted Tera Water Cudgel. It’s also not hard to break Multiscale since Wogre is often paired with RH Lando and mons that apply pressure to Dnite.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 257-303 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Adamant straight up kills after the smallest chip.
+2 252+ Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Can switch into Wogre but gets 2HKOd by Pwhip and hates U-Turn. You also need to Tera in order to actually OHKO.
Can outspeed and threaten with Leaf Storm or Glare, but hates U-Turn variants. Also Serp isn’t great run due to current meta trends.
Dies to +2 Play Rough and is also not great rn. Too many common weaknesses and doesn’t even threaten much to Wogre.
Can pivot into Ivy and tank an unboosted Pwhip, but it dies after a SD.
Dies to +2 Knock and can be exploited by common Wogre teammates like Ghold.
Pex dies to +2 Whip and is free entry for alot of Wogre’s teammates. Same with Amoonguss who is probably the closest thing to a hard check.
I guess I’m trying to say why should Overton-W be banned over Kyurem or Darkrai? Saying those two because it has been made abundantly clear by our fearless leader that these three are on the chopping block.