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CAP 1 Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Syclant Testing
- Thread starter Sunday
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I've spent the last couple of days trying to figure out why Mountaineer wasn't working at all in many circumstances. It didn't literally take two days, but with RL limitations you get the idea....
Anyway, it turned out to be two problems. One was a stupid coding mistake I made when I tried to fix the double-switching problem. The second issue was much deeper, and was related to the fact that there was no reliable way to detect a double-switch. Because of the way Shoddy turns are executed, it was almost impossible to handle normal switches, double-switches, and the real bugger -- the first turn of battle. I've gotten it all sorted out and, after a small modification to the base "Battle Field" in Shoddy, I think everything works properly. I tested all the normal scenarios, normal double-switches, post-explosion double-switches, U-Turn, and Baton Pass. All of these seem to be working correctly now. Let me know if they are not.
I also gave Syclant U-Turn, and I gave it a mass of 115 lbs. That clears the immediate bug list (no pun indended, but it's kinda funny anyway).
Anyway, it turned out to be two problems. One was a stupid coding mistake I made when I tried to fix the double-switching problem. The second issue was much deeper, and was related to the fact that there was no reliable way to detect a double-switch. Because of the way Shoddy turns are executed, it was almost impossible to handle normal switches, double-switches, and the real bugger -- the first turn of battle. I've gotten it all sorted out and, after a small modification to the base "Battle Field" in Shoddy, I think everything works properly. I tested all the normal scenarios, normal double-switches, post-explosion double-switches, U-Turn, and Baton Pass. All of these seem to be working correctly now. Let me know if they are not.
I also gave Syclant U-Turn, and I gave it a mass of 115 lbs. That clears the immediate bug list (no pun indended, but it's kinda funny anyway).
Awesome job in the recoding DJD.
I just tested out Trace, Rock Blast, Metronome, and Hidden Power [Rock], and they all work perfectly. I have the logs for eerything but Rock Blast if you desperately need them, but I doubt you will.
I can't think of anything else left to try. I could re-do the Assist test, but I don't think it will be a problem.
I just tested out Trace, Rock Blast, Metronome, and Hidden Power [Rock], and they all work perfectly. I have the logs for eerything but Rock Blast if you desperately need them, but I doubt you will.
I can't think of anything else left to try. I could re-do the Assist test, but I don't think it will be a problem.
Unfortunately, in fixing some of those weird cases, I broke a basic case. If you switch in Syclant after a single pokemon faints, then Mountaineer Syclant has rock immunity for the full turn. I'm fixing the code now, and I will restart the server later today.
Isn't debugging fun?
I've got the Mountaineer fixes done. I also think I have figured out how to get a ladder working, if we want one. It'll take a little work, but not too much. Right now, it's probably unnecessary, since we are just testing. But, it's nice to know for future reference.
I'm currently on the fence about Deoxys and Wobbuffet's uber status on the server. It is incredibly easy to change, but it is part of the hard-coding of the server. So, if I change it, I'll have to recompile and restart it.
The dilemma is that we are running a Smogon project site, which means we should respect the Smogon tiers. That means Deo and Wobb should be banned to ubers. OTOH, we are getting a lot of Shoddy traffic, and people are constantly asking about it; expecting them to be OU. For individual challenges, it doesn't matter. You can have anyone on a team. For Find Tab battles, it makes a difference. If we decide to run our own ladder, it will be very important.
It's not my decision to make alone, since this is a community server. I'd like to hear other thoughts on it before making any changes. For the record, Deo and Wobb are currently banned for OU "Find Tab" matches on the CAP Project server.
I'm currently on the fence about Deoxys and Wobbuffet's uber status on the server. It is incredibly easy to change, but it is part of the hard-coding of the server. So, if I change it, I'll have to recompile and restart it.
The dilemma is that we are running a Smogon project site, which means we should respect the Smogon tiers. That means Deo and Wobb should be banned to ubers. OTOH, we are getting a lot of Shoddy traffic, and people are constantly asking about it; expecting them to be OU. For individual challenges, it doesn't matter. You can have anyone on a team. For Find Tab battles, it makes a difference. If we decide to run our own ladder, it will be very important.
It's not my decision to make alone, since this is a community server. I'd like to hear other thoughts on it before making any changes. For the record, Deo and Wobb are currently banned for OU "Find Tab" matches on the CAP Project server.
I'm against implementing Wobb and Deo just because the people in charge of Shoddy did it on the official server. Like you said, this is a Smogon test server and should use Smogon tiers.
I agree.
Syclant (and any others) was designed in Smogon, and it should be played in Smogon. The people who made it did not expect to use it against Deoxys or Wobbuffet. More importantly, the balance discussion and testing we have been doing do not account for Wobbuffet or Deoxys.
Syclant (and any others) was designed in Smogon, and it should be played in Smogon. The people who made it did not expect to use it against Deoxys or Wobbuffet. More importantly, the balance discussion and testing we have been doing do not account for Wobbuffet or Deoxys.
As much as I hate to say I can't use my favorite Deoxys-E, it does make sense to abide by Smogon's listings with a Smogon project. The rest of the Shoddy traffic isn't going to die because they can't have Wobbuffet in Find Tab battles. Find Tab says lol at this, by the way.
I'd totally support a ladder! It's pretty much the only reason for going to Official at the moment for me, anyways. Testing comes first anyways (even if not too many battles I've seen end up using Syclant). So this'd be a great long-term goal.
I'd totally support a ladder! It's pretty much the only reason for going to Official at the moment for me, anyways. Testing comes first anyways (even if not too many battles I've seen end up using Syclant). So this'd be a great long-term goal.
I should mention that I have had considerable success with Physical Syclant and Ninjask. The speed doesn't matter much, but I am guaranteed an attack boost from Liechi Berry, and BP'd SD helps greatly for sweeping on Syclant's four physical attack set.
I just restarted the server with the "final" Mountaineer fixes.
*crosses fingers*
*crosses fingers*
Well, every team worth its salt has at least one Phazer, even if it's in the form of Perish Song. To my team, seeing Ninjask is like "okay, this is now a 6 vs 5 game". Ninjask may seem cool, and is indeed very dangerous if not taken into account, but it's SO easily countered it isn't worth using.
On the other hand, and regarding the tiers, I also agree that, if this project wants to have a relation to Smogon, it should respect Smogon's tier list. Not doing so would be totally incoherent, and pretty disrespectful to the site that allowed this project to exist.
Oh, by the way! I've reported a bug to the general Shoddy bug tracker: Mold breaker was stopping Mountaineer from avoiding SR, and not only that, but letting levitators take spikes damage, and in general, nullifying all abilities, and that shouldn't be that way. It should only avoid abilities that hinder your attack effect. Mold Breaker page on the main site: http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/mold_breaker
People who have stopped playing because of Wobb and Deoxys wont come to a "Create A Pokemon" server now to now deal with "fake" pokemon.
But to get away from this topic, I've tested Syclant and for what its worth I think you might have gone overboad with its movepool.
I came up with the following sets a little while ago and after testing them I can't really say i've seen anthing hold it's own against Syclant besides Faster/Scarfed pokemon or Priority moves.
Syclant (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Mountaineer
EVs: 252 Atk/168 Spd/90 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Ice Punch
- Superpower
- Swords Dance
- Bug Buzz
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With this set after a Sword Dance it can OHKO - 2HKO anything in the game so nothing is really a safe switch in and the only pokemon it's not 2hkoing with these moves is still then 2hkoed by STAB Life Orbed Bug Buzz. (Cresselia) I feel Superpower is the move that is really pusing it over the top as with it no special set can be walled by Blissey simply by slapping it on even without much ev investment. Brick Break means they at least have a viable wall breaking fighting move, but it requires at least EV investment and i cant see it becoming too big of a hassle. My vote on Superpower is to drop it.
Syclant (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mountaineer
EVs: 90 HP/168 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Tail Glow
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
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This other set has proven to be a thorn in peoples side as everyone knows with Taunt there is no statusing this thing due to its speed. It also means Blissey can't simply come in an wall away even though its a completely special set as it cannot recover its Hp or status Syclant. After one Tail Glow this thing 2HKOs Blissey and with the EVs generated Seismic Toss is a 4HKO. Personally I don't think the issue is Taunt per say but the fact that it learns Focus Blast while still having Tail Glow to boost its special attack and still has the base stats to be faster than almost all currently used pokemon is what is really pushing the limit. I say take out Focus Blast and its still an extremely viable pokemon.
Spikes and Roost are also other moves i was thinking about commenting on but i have not tested them as yet and will refrain from speaking about them until i do, but honestly in my opnion I do think this pokemons movepool could do with some change.
I agree. Although I think Superpower is worse than Brick Break or Focus Blast on a Tail Glow set, it is not only not very fitting but yet another option for such a versatile pokémon.
Anyway, I think Syclant is balanced in the sense that, even with Mountaineer, it is terribly difficult to bring it into battle safely. I end up bringing it after a death, since it will take lots of damage from just about anything, and since mine carries LO, that adds quickly.
I just fixed it. I'll put the change in later tonight.
FYI - Don't report Syclant-related bugs on the Shoddy bug tracker. The Shoddy team does not care about bugs caused by our modifications. Delete the bug report if you can. Just report them here, and I'll fix them.
But there IS a Mold Breaker bug I found in Shoddy:
Mountaineer is one of the only abilities that affects attacks AND indirect damage. In Shoddy, Mold Breaker is coded so that it completely disables the opponent ability, if it is in the list of abilities "affected by Mold Breaker". I put Mountaineer in the "affected by Mold Breaker" list, hence the behavior you were seeing.
But, then I asked the question, "Is there any other ability like this?" And Cacturne's Sand Veil immediately came to mind. Sand Veil is the only thing that prevents Cacturne from taking SS damage. It also affects the accuracy of incoming attacks. Sand Veil is in the "affected by Mold Breaker" list. So from what I could see in the code, it looked like Cacturne would take SS damage if Rampardos hit the field. I tested it in Shoddy, and yes -- Cacturne starts taking SS damage if you switch in a Mold Breaker pokemon. Here's a battle log snippet:
DougJustDoug switched in Rampardos (lvl 100 Rampardos ♂).
Cacturne used Swords Dance.
Cacturne's attack was sharply raised.
The sandstorm rages.
Cacturne is buffetted by the sandstorm!
Cacturne lost 6% of its health.
I think it's a bug, but can someone test this Cacturne example in the real Pokemon game? I just want to make sure, before I code any changes into Shoddy.
"Abilities nullified are: Battle Armor, Clear Body, Damp, Dry Skin, Filter, Flash Fire, Flower Gift, Heatproof, Hyper Cutter, Immunity, Inner Focus, Insomnia, Keen Eye, Leaf Guard, Levitate, Lightningrod, Limber, Magma Armor, Marvel Scale, Motor Drive, Oblivious, Own Tempo, Sand Veil, Shell Armor, Shield Dust, Simple, Snow Cloak, Solid Rock, Soundproof, Sticky Hold, Storm Drain, Suction Cups, Tangled Feet, Thick Fat, Unaware, Vital Spirit, Volt Absorb, Water Absorb, Water Veil, White Smoke, Wonder Guard. Dry Skin's increase in damage when hit by a Fire move is also ignored."
seems like mold breaker would affect levitate, by letting pokemon get hit by spikes.
if this were true, than we might have an efficient syclant (with mountaineer) counter.
seems like mold breaker would affect levitate, by letting pokemon get hit by spikes.
if this were true, than we might have an efficient syclant (with mountaineer) counter.
I'll test the Cacturne thing DJD. It'll only take a minute or two. I'll edit it into here when I'm done.
EDIT- Oh, nvm. I didn't see dark war cloud's post.
EDIT- Oh, nvm. I didn't see dark war cloud's post.
I dont get how Superpower is worse than Brick Break in any way, even after the attack drop 2 consecutive Superpowers do more than 2 consecutive Brick Breaks, and as for Tail Glow sets look at Infernape, it uses Close Combat over Focus Blast even though Focus Blast will also OHKO Blissey after a Nasty Plot so i dont really see the point here....
Agh, I thought you can drop spikes on your own field in double battles. Since you can't, I won't be able to test the Mold Breaker vs Levitator entering with spikes.
However, I've tested and confirmed the Sand Veil case: having Rampardos vs Cacturne several turns in a sandstorm, and Cacturne didn't get damaged by it.
Most Blisseys nowadays doesn't carry Thunder Wave, and very little carry Flamethrower. Those are the only threatening moves against Syclant, and if Blissey doesn't have any of those, Syclant can just Tail Glow twice and OHKO Blissey.
My experience with Superpower is limited, since I switched to a purely special attacking set (Timid, 252 SA/252 Sp, Life Orb, Blizzard/Bug Buzz/Focus Blast/Tail Glow) pretty soon after trying a mixed set with more attack EVs and Superpower, but Focus Blast has worked better for me.
However, I've tested and confirmed the Sand Veil case: having Rampardos vs Cacturne several turns in a sandstorm, and Cacturne didn't get damaged by it.
Most Blisseys nowadays doesn't carry Thunder Wave, and very little carry Flamethrower. Those are the only threatening moves against Syclant, and if Blissey doesn't have any of those, Syclant can just Tail Glow twice and OHKO Blissey.
My experience with Superpower is limited, since I switched to a purely special attacking set (Timid, 252 SA/252 Sp, Life Orb, Blizzard/Bug Buzz/Focus Blast/Tail Glow) pretty soon after trying a mixed set with more attack EVs and Superpower, but Focus Blast has worked better for me.
I have not been spending a lot of time testing Syclant in battle. I've had my head buried in code most of the time. I've pored over tons of battle logs and spoken to many people, so I feel like I know the pokemon very well. In fact, I've probably seen this thing in battle more than anyone, simply because I have access to every battle log on the server, and I take the time to read lots of them. But, there is a big difference between observation and participation. I trust the opinions of people who are using Syclant, more than I trust my own third-party observations.
With that said, from all the input I have received, there seems to be a few common complaints about Syclant. These are not necessarily my personal opinions, nor are they necessarily the majority opinion. This is also not a comprehensive list of every complaint ever made. This is simply a summary of the most common complaints I have heard, with a list of brief arguments made to support the complaint:
1) Get rid of Tail Glow
If it gets the TG in, Syclant is just too powerful. Tail Glow doesn't make sense. Tail Glow is basically a "special move" for a select few pokemon, and Syclant should not be one of them.
2) Syclants speed should not be 121
The extra 1 point appears overly-contrived; just make it 120. It should not be that fast anyway with those attacking stats (110-115 speed commonly mentioned as acceptable). Nothing else in the game is that fast, and hits that hard from both sides, with that much movepool.
3) Reduce the size and variety of the movepool
It can do just about anything. It has the biggest movepool this side of Mew. The only pokemon with that much movepool variety are things like Clefable, and Clefable doesn't have stats like Syclant.
4) Get rid of Fire Fang
A Bug/Ice pokemon should not have a fire move, regardless of the concept or the sprite.
5) Mountaineer is broken
In some cases, it removes a 4x weakness, which is unprecedented in the game. It eliminates Stealth Rock, which is ridiculous for a Bug/Ice pokemon that should take 50% from SR.
Almost all these arguments were discussed heavily during the building of Syclant. We've also discussed them here. But, these criticisms are coming up A LOT. Whether I agree with them or not, I think we should consider some of them. From my perspective, I now consider this a "PR Problem". Whether they are true or not, many many people are carrying these opinions and repeating them to others. Have you ever heard the saying, "Perception is reality". Well, that's what I fear is happening here. Even if the reality is that Syclant is just fine, the perception is that it is broken as hell. If we allow that perception to continue, it undermines the credibility of the project and the pokemon we make in the future.
There are three ways I can think to can handle this (but there may be other options, of course):
1) Do nothing.
We can all cite many examples of Pokemon that had a certain perception when they were introduced, which later turned out to be false. Maybe that will happen here.
2) Re-open/Re-do several of the Syclant polls and invite all those that have playtested to participate.
Now that we have playtesting experience, the discussion and results in the polls may be significantly different.
3) Open some very specific polls about certain aspects of the pokemon and "fine tune" Syclant.
Perhaps the first poll could be a vote on which aspects we should "fine tune". Take a few of the top vote-getting issues, and sub-poll from there.
If we do any form of polling, then Cooper might want to put his mini-mod hat back on and lead the charge. If we don't change anything now, then we need to figure out a plan for proving/disproving these complaints.
With that said, from all the input I have received, there seems to be a few common complaints about Syclant. These are not necessarily my personal opinions, nor are they necessarily the majority opinion. This is also not a comprehensive list of every complaint ever made. This is simply a summary of the most common complaints I have heard, with a list of brief arguments made to support the complaint:
1) Get rid of Tail Glow
If it gets the TG in, Syclant is just too powerful. Tail Glow doesn't make sense. Tail Glow is basically a "special move" for a select few pokemon, and Syclant should not be one of them.
2) Syclants speed should not be 121
The extra 1 point appears overly-contrived; just make it 120. It should not be that fast anyway with those attacking stats (110-115 speed commonly mentioned as acceptable). Nothing else in the game is that fast, and hits that hard from both sides, with that much movepool.
3) Reduce the size and variety of the movepool
It can do just about anything. It has the biggest movepool this side of Mew. The only pokemon with that much movepool variety are things like Clefable, and Clefable doesn't have stats like Syclant.
4) Get rid of Fire Fang
A Bug/Ice pokemon should not have a fire move, regardless of the concept or the sprite.
5) Mountaineer is broken
In some cases, it removes a 4x weakness, which is unprecedented in the game. It eliminates Stealth Rock, which is ridiculous for a Bug/Ice pokemon that should take 50% from SR.
Almost all these arguments were discussed heavily during the building of Syclant. We've also discussed them here. But, these criticisms are coming up A LOT. Whether I agree with them or not, I think we should consider some of them. From my perspective, I now consider this a "PR Problem". Whether they are true or not, many many people are carrying these opinions and repeating them to others. Have you ever heard the saying, "Perception is reality". Well, that's what I fear is happening here. Even if the reality is that Syclant is just fine, the perception is that it is broken as hell. If we allow that perception to continue, it undermines the credibility of the project and the pokemon we make in the future.
There are three ways I can think to can handle this (but there may be other options, of course):
1) Do nothing.
We can all cite many examples of Pokemon that had a certain perception when they were introduced, which later turned out to be false. Maybe that will happen here.
2) Re-open/Re-do several of the Syclant polls and invite all those that have playtested to participate.
Now that we have playtesting experience, the discussion and results in the polls may be significantly different.
3) Open some very specific polls about certain aspects of the pokemon and "fine tune" Syclant.
Perhaps the first poll could be a vote on which aspects we should "fine tune". Take a few of the top vote-getting issues, and sub-poll from there.
If we do any form of polling, then Cooper might want to put his mini-mod hat back on and lead the charge. If we don't change anything now, then we need to figure out a plan for proving/disproving these complaints.
Thunder Wave is just as common on Blissey as it was before and Flamethrower might not be as common but to the best of my knowledge Every Blissey tends to carry some form of status expect for the Calm Mind sets.
Taunt on Syclant screws with that and just to note a +4 Focus Blast does 71-83% to a Max Hp 0 Sdef Bold Blissey from a Neutral natured Syclant while Superpower with absolutely no EV investment from a neutral natured Syclant does 55-64% and after the attack drop still does 31-36%.
Overall I'd consider Superpower better in this regard as it pretty much 2HKOs Bliss without any stat investment or item boost.
FTR I agree with all of those. 121 speed (?) with that movepool and those attacking stats plus the ability to double them both (Swords Dance is fine but Tail Glow? Come on...) rounded off by a trait that practically makes an inconvenient 4x weakness into an immunity? No Pokemon is designed THAT perfectly. It really seems like you tried a bit too hard with this one. I agree that those things come across as really contrived. A better idea would be to make Mountaineer cut the damage from Rock attacks by 50%, so that it's only a regular weakness.
That said, it is one bitchin' looking Pokemon. Once those things that you mentioned are fixed, It totally use it.
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