Tbh, there is no good check defensively to Darkai as you've said. Just like Ogerpon it's few "checks" can be easily chipped down into range once you get a nasty plot up and hopefully hit a focus blast. I'm honestly starting to view Darkrai breaking power as borderline unhealthy. At least ogerpon and Kyurem and be outpsed relatively easily. Darkai speed tier is really good and typically brought down by the mentioned Zama, pult, deo-s, or boostor guys. Is there any room for discussion for it? It's poor bulk is what honestly make it bearable at best for me.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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Well Finchinator already said there are 2-3 suspect-worthy mons, and he named Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem, and Darkrai, so Darkrai is potentially on the table, but I don't think Darkrai's more likely to be the next suspect target than Kyurem or Ogerpon-Wellspring unless top players think otherwise, which I doubt.
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The issue with trying to wall Darkrai (and other Special attackers like Dragapult and Ghold) is that secondary effects of Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb (which was mentioned), Ice Beam, etc. can very easily cripple would-be checks on repeated switch-ins. I mean this unironically: make sure your hazard control game is under control and slap a Covert Cloak on a SpDef pivot. Not only you remove hax from the equation, but you also ignore Salt Cure, Nuzzle, and Mortal Spin so there's that too
just fought my first specs bolt and while im way more anti-kyurem than i am anti-bolt by God do those choice specs t-bolts and dracos feels like genuine nukes sometimes and when the only defensive(prima to me doesnt count cuz you have to tera)OU ranked fairy mon(clef) takes 45 at min from t-bolt Godddd..to be fair on the topic of good defensive fairy types.. 
(unless you have no real ghold check)
tbh though if they bring back the paradoxes next gen then they have to make a ground fairy tapu for plza or something though just saying ..(joking)
(unless you have no real ghold check)tbh though if they bring back the paradoxes next gen then they have to make a ground fairy tapu for plza or something though just saying ..(joking)
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Alolan Muk is really good aganist Darkrai and wins aganist every single variant of it. A-Muk is also pretty decent aganist most of the special attacks in OU, while also giving the team a Knock Off User and Toxic Spikes absorber
Adding onto the A-Muk train, from what I've used of it it's a pretty good mon in the tier. Poison touch is obviously broken and Poison/Dark typing with that bulk means it can take a variety of hits. It can really work well for balance teams to chip down opponents by wearing them down over the game. Toxic is weirdly a really good move on it to ensure it can get a poison off on stuff like tusk which it really needs to wear down. Ice punch and drain punch are good moves on it as well depending on your team and it can kinda just force guaranteed progress all around.
Preach. Honestly couldn’t agree with this more. Solgaleo has so many tricks up its sleeve—teleport, knock, morning sun, strong stab and good coverage both physical and special, good bulk… people can and will try to abuse the fuck out of it with all these possibilities. Not something that the tier needs considering that threat saturation is already a common complaint.
And about Darkrai, let’s remember that many people said that hypnosis sets in particular would be trash and yet it was the spark that ignited the sleep ban. To be fair, when it first dropped it was pretty mid. But meta changes and people starting to exploit its many possibilities turned Darkrai into a significant force shaping the tier and much stronger in the long term than many had anticipated.
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There are options... Blissey and Clodsire come to mind first, even though they're mostly restricted to stall, but it has counters usable on balance such as fezandipiti and defensive slither wing who roadblock it super hard. As for checks (and less fringe options) ting lu doesn't really care about beam or fblast because it's so absurdly fat anyways and should never lose to darkrai 1v1, and any good AV mon (Iron Hands for example) can stop it as well. Obviously though most of darkrai counterplay is gonna be offensive, but defensive answers DO exist.
Darkrai is weird because while it isn't easy to check defensively it feels way better to check offensively as in the bulk department is where it's shortcomings come into play. I would much rather Kyurem or Waterpon get suspected since they feel more broken and more difficult to deal with offensively. Darkrai is kinda weird because I don't really think it is broken since in practice it has to spend a turn to NP which with less than passable base 90 bulk in this meta can really bite darkrai in the ass but also I can see why people think it is broken as if you give up the opportunity to set up it becomes difficult to deal with defensively. I think Waterpon, Kyurem, and Moon are all bigger issues and I can't help but feel that Darkrai wouldn't have the support that Waterpon or Kyurem have and would come off as a waste of time if it gets suspected to some players.
Good point about Solgaleo, as I said I would not mind it being tested but like as you all said I do fear the issues it could bring if it is overbearing if we drop it with all the things it can do but who knows?
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cant believe clefable glowking and iron crown might get suspected
Alright since I have an hour of free spare time, I suppose I'll use it to offer some more insight from the side that considers Zamazenta problematic/broken.
.....But before I do that, I'd like to preface how I value a mon's traits and have them tied to their effectiveness: Speed>Bulk>Power.
Speed should be fairly obvious; the ability to get moves off before the opposing mon can is an advantage 99% of the time, no matter how you slice it. It's why/how mons like pult/deo-s attain all the viability that they do. It's why Flutter Mane/Iron Bundle were among the first things to GTFO ASAP. It's why I believe Chien-Pao should NEVER be considered for a retest again at the risk of spawning a giant war, I'd rather have CHI-YU than it, even if obviously neither must ever come back under any reasonable circumstances. And finally/most importantly...Zamazenta has it in spades, with its speed towering above the whole unboosted tier outside of the aforementioned pult/deo-s, which lets it get moves off before the majority of what it's facing, putting what little set unpredictability it has to deadly degrees (read: if your current (bulky, non unaware) mon relies on status to cripple zama, and the latter happens to pull out a sub, the former's gonna need several turns just to break it, during which time zama's recovered all the lost hp back with leftovers; sub also blocks the knock that'd help against those leftovers). It's also what allows zama to run train over teams relying on booster energy mons to check it, once it's roared them out (smth it can afford to do due to how fast/bulky it is, more on this in a bit). And finally, it is what allows it to instantly seal the game the moment any specially attacking mon capable of withstanding a hit is out of the picture.
Power may seem strange to include second, but I'll only briefly touch upon this since it's not super deep/I really need to get into the main point of this whole post. Power is ofc important to proactively end games when/if applicable; however, if the mon can't put it to use due to a lack of speed/bulk, it's basically meaningless (aka the Rampardos theorem). For a more concrete and meta relevant example, Hoopa-U has an even higher BST than Zama, however it's not anywhere near OU proper despite having a decent amount of viability. Why? Because in spite of its titanic dual offenses and spdef, low-to-middling hp, def and speed ensure that it basically feels like....a regular mon to fight against; most strong physical attackers can crack it wide open, u turn or not, and even its special bulk only goes so far w/o reliable recovery (and its offenses aren't fully felt because it can only afford to fully invest into 1 of them at a time, due to how the ev system works; no, you're not unironically maxing out both offenses and sacrificing both hp and speed, don't even bother). It's especially apparent in this gen where most mons need external conditions for sufficient off the bat power (tera, weather, abilities etc). Zama itself has a...solid but not-off the bat overwhelming power (without boosting with iron defense for body press, or choice band for its close combat sets).
Bulk is where the meat of it all lies into; if a mon can't move before its competition (an exceptionally apparent issue this gen with the most absurd speed creep of any gen ever), it will have to fall back on its bulk one way or another to compensate, before being able to get moves off. This is not to say that glass cannons can't be/aren't viable (far from it), but the more bulk you have/the more you're able to preserve it, the better. It's why even various mid bulk offensive mons run boots this gen; so that hazards don't compromise whatever hit taking ability they might have, even at the expense of power granted by other items. And....it's arguably the single most morbid part about zama itself, and an aspect often frighteningly overlooked. Many people will say just have your offensive team use booster valiant/scarf enam to check it/cripple most of its hp with moonblast. Which...isn't wrong, for sure. But a variety of factors make this a significantly more complicated matter than it would first seem. For an easy starter:
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 284-336 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even close to an ohko. And valiant obviously does less (but at least it has encore which in tandem with moonblast can indeed prevail). And these aren't light hits either; they're among the strongest SE hits the entirety of OU has to offer against this beast. On its "weaker" defensive side. And it's still not even close to enough. (on the lowest roll, zama has enough hp to sub again if needed which is obscene). This is not even taking into account the possibility of tera, which lets it take essentially 0 damage from the above moonblast, and boost up further/crush these fairies right then and there. And before one says yay you forced the enemy's tera, now HURRY UP and WIN! ....no, it's not that simple; many of the offensive teams employing these mons, or any other such similar ones, primarily rely on them to deal with fighters like zamazenta; there's only so much counterplay an offensive team can afford to fit to any one threat -much less one THIS bulky/fast- this gen. Meaning that, it's often a fine investment for zama to tera vs such offenses, considering its ability to so swiftly/decisively seal the game the moment most immediate counterplay to it is out -and with how little room for error there is against it, especially with the right set (or at least cripple the opposing team enough for the rest of its team to win). This is exceptionally fatal considering that the main counterplay to such fast boosting mons, aka priority moves, do not even work against this colossoal stat stick that's further boosting its defense to the point where they do nothing. And hell, assuming it CAN tera, what special attackers are there to reliably stand up to its might, while being able to cover most of its tera options? The answer is fewer than you'd expect:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Sun: 363-427 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (draco does 100% minimum)
So yeah, you need something on THIS level of damage output to be able to reliably dispatch it. This is not mentioning how wake just dies to a +3 body press btw. Almost everything else fails to do sufficient damage in time, especially with a timely tera allowing zama to get even more free turns to boost further or just fire off boosted attacks and win. Granted, your own tera (aka most notably tera ghost -btw how many things would actually run this if not for zama/dnite? be honest) can also be used to try and steal back momentum from it, but again it's risky and can get even more complicated if you've already given it too many free turns -especially if it happened to have the right set vs the right mon to turn it into total setup fodder. Setup sweepers of your own are also a risky choice on the off chance it's indeed carrying roar -except for okidogi, which is admittedly v.good vs it, but even it fears an untimely crit, and also zama boosts faster than dogi does (especially if you were hoping to knock off its lefties first but it reveals sub and now your turn got wasted). And even then, ghost type mons/tera ghost ones are the mercy of crunch defense drops (without covert cloak); a very real danger/possibility considering the above argument about how many turns the mon is able to generate for itself. It is able to generate these free turns because -as I've been building up to until this point- Zama is able to put its sheer bst to much better use than mons like Hoopa U/Kyurem can, largely due to the above mentioned speed and bulk letting it leverage the rest of its traits to a much more dangerous degree (fewer weaknesses compared to the above 2 mons also certainly helps on this regard as well).
....Ok since I'm apparently running out of time now -I was just about done anyways- I'd like to make some final few disclaimers: Is Zama too overbearing to deal with, considering all of what's been said above? Well arguably not, considering it's still in the tier now after several months/most of the general consensus seems to be no. Does Zama bring nothing of value to the tier? Yes it does, with its ability to stfile most Kingambit sets a mon that I still consider dumb btw and also just offering a fast, bulky cleaner with all of its above mentioned traits. Would the tier be better off with Zama gone? Well that's smth neither me nor anyone can say for certain, however the strain the mon puts in battle on practice -at least for me- has certainly left me to wonder just a little bit. And lastly, why did I not touch upon the other sets? Because they're not as capable of accentuating the mon's problematic traits as ironpress can- they're good sets for sure and have their place/role on teams, but....ultimately, these bulky boosting sets are seemingly always the factor that reveals a mon's true nature- see Ursaluna Bloodmoon, cm stored power Magearna (and various other mons on its wake still on this tier, which have made the move stored power so debated over even after all this time), and many other examples across various tiers and gens. And it's also why I firmly believe Zama-Crowned must NOT be given a real chance either (basically take everything I just said about zama above and up it to 11), and it's why various ubers being discussed above shouldn't be, either (most ESPECIALLY Lugia/Giratina).
TLDR: Zamazenta's combination of immense (unboosted) speed and bulk lets it exhibit the rest of its traits to tower over most of the tier with a(n arguably) relatively alarming amount of ease, and while it may not always be able to win right away, it can make use of resources like tera to overcome its few would be checks and, once those're gone, it can seal the game almost instantly with its speed and bulk quickly denying physically attacking revenge killing attempts almost entirely. While it can't run all of sub/roar/heavy slam at once, having the right one of these moves/choice of tera against a would be check allows the mon to prevail easily, and become significantly harder to take on from there, considering how little consistent counterplay to it there is outside of bulky unaware walls (and yes you can argue the mon is useless vs fat, however a mon doesn't need to be broken vs all playstyles to be considered problematic, as I'm sure most people already know).
.....But before I do that, I'd like to preface how I value a mon's traits and have them tied to their effectiveness: Speed>Bulk>Power.
Speed should be fairly obvious; the ability to get moves off before the opposing mon can is an advantage 99% of the time, no matter how you slice it. It's why/how mons like pult/deo-s attain all the viability that they do. It's why Flutter Mane/Iron Bundle were among the first things to GTFO ASAP. It's why I believe Chien-Pao should NEVER be considered for a retest again at the risk of spawning a giant war, I'd rather have CHI-YU than it, even if obviously neither must ever come back under any reasonable circumstances. And finally/most importantly...Zamazenta has it in spades, with its speed towering above the whole unboosted tier outside of the aforementioned pult/deo-s, which lets it get moves off before the majority of what it's facing, putting what little set unpredictability it has to deadly degrees (read: if your current (bulky, non unaware) mon relies on status to cripple zama, and the latter happens to pull out a sub, the former's gonna need several turns just to break it, during which time zama's recovered all the lost hp back with leftovers; sub also blocks the knock that'd help against those leftovers). It's also what allows zama to run train over teams relying on booster energy mons to check it, once it's roared them out (smth it can afford to do due to how fast/bulky it is, more on this in a bit). And finally, it is what allows it to instantly seal the game the moment any specially attacking mon capable of withstanding a hit is out of the picture.
Power may seem strange to include second, but I'll only briefly touch upon this since it's not super deep/I really need to get into the main point of this whole post. Power is ofc important to proactively end games when/if applicable; however, if the mon can't put it to use due to a lack of speed/bulk, it's basically meaningless (aka the Rampardos theorem). For a more concrete and meta relevant example, Hoopa-U has an even higher BST than Zama, however it's not anywhere near OU proper despite having a decent amount of viability. Why? Because in spite of its titanic dual offenses and spdef, low-to-middling hp, def and speed ensure that it basically feels like....a regular mon to fight against; most strong physical attackers can crack it wide open, u turn or not, and even its special bulk only goes so far w/o reliable recovery (and its offenses aren't fully felt because it can only afford to fully invest into 1 of them at a time, due to how the ev system works; no, you're not unironically maxing out both offenses and sacrificing both hp and speed, don't even bother). It's especially apparent in this gen where most mons need external conditions for sufficient off the bat power (tera, weather, abilities etc). Zama itself has a...solid but not-off the bat overwhelming power (without boosting with iron defense for body press, or choice band for its close combat sets).
Bulk is where the meat of it all lies into; if a mon can't move before its competition (an exceptionally apparent issue this gen with the most absurd speed creep of any gen ever), it will have to fall back on its bulk one way or another to compensate, before being able to get moves off. This is not to say that glass cannons can't be/aren't viable (far from it), but the more bulk you have/the more you're able to preserve it, the better. It's why even various mid bulk offensive mons run boots this gen; so that hazards don't compromise whatever hit taking ability they might have, even at the expense of power granted by other items. And....it's arguably the single most morbid part about zama itself, and an aspect often frighteningly overlooked. Many people will say just have your offensive team use booster valiant/scarf enam to check it/cripple most of its hp with moonblast. Which...isn't wrong, for sure. But a variety of factors make this a significantly more complicated matter than it would first seem. For an easy starter:
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 284-336 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even close to an ohko. And valiant obviously does less (but at least it has encore which in tandem with moonblast can indeed prevail). And these aren't light hits either; they're among the strongest SE hits the entirety of OU has to offer against this beast. On its "weaker" defensive side. And it's still not even close to enough. (on the lowest roll, zama has enough hp to sub again if needed which is obscene). This is not even taking into account the possibility of tera, which lets it take essentially 0 damage from the above moonblast, and boost up further/crush these fairies right then and there. And before one says yay you forced the enemy's tera, now HURRY UP and WIN! ....no, it's not that simple; many of the offensive teams employing these mons, or any other such similar ones, primarily rely on them to deal with fighters like zamazenta; there's only so much counterplay an offensive team can afford to fit to any one threat -much less one THIS bulky/fast- this gen. Meaning that, it's often a fine investment for zama to tera vs such offenses, considering its ability to so swiftly/decisively seal the game the moment most immediate counterplay to it is out -and with how little room for error there is against it, especially with the right set (or at least cripple the opposing team enough for the rest of its team to win). This is exceptionally fatal considering that the main counterplay to such fast boosting mons, aka priority moves, do not even work against this colossoal stat stick that's further boosting its defense to the point where they do nothing. And hell, assuming it CAN tera, what special attackers are there to reliably stand up to its might, while being able to cover most of its tera options? The answer is fewer than you'd expect:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Sun: 363-427 (93.5 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (draco does 100% minimum)
So yeah, you need something on THIS level of damage output to be able to reliably dispatch it. This is not mentioning how wake just dies to a +3 body press btw. Almost everything else fails to do sufficient damage in time, especially with a timely tera allowing zama to get even more free turns to boost further or just fire off boosted attacks and win. Granted, your own tera (aka most notably tera ghost -btw how many things would actually run this if not for zama/dnite? be honest) can also be used to try and steal back momentum from it, but again it's risky and can get even more complicated if you've already given it too many free turns -especially if it happened to have the right set vs the right mon to turn it into total setup fodder. Setup sweepers of your own are also a risky choice on the off chance it's indeed carrying roar -except for okidogi, which is admittedly v.good vs it, but even it fears an untimely crit, and also zama boosts faster than dogi does (especially if you were hoping to knock off its lefties first but it reveals sub and now your turn got wasted). And even then, ghost type mons/tera ghost ones are the mercy of crunch defense drops (without covert cloak); a very real danger/possibility considering the above argument about how many turns the mon is able to generate for itself. It is able to generate these free turns because -as I've been building up to until this point- Zama is able to put its sheer bst to much better use than mons like Hoopa U/Kyurem can, largely due to the above mentioned speed and bulk letting it leverage the rest of its traits to a much more dangerous degree (fewer weaknesses compared to the above 2 mons also certainly helps on this regard as well).
....Ok since I'm apparently running out of time now -I was just about done anyways- I'd like to make some final few disclaimers: Is Zama too overbearing to deal with, considering all of what's been said above? Well arguably not, considering it's still in the tier now after several months/most of the general consensus seems to be no. Does Zama bring nothing of value to the tier? Yes it does, with its ability to stfile most Kingambit sets a mon that I still consider dumb btw and also just offering a fast, bulky cleaner with all of its above mentioned traits. Would the tier be better off with Zama gone? Well that's smth neither me nor anyone can say for certain, however the strain the mon puts in battle on practice -at least for me- has certainly left me to wonder just a little bit. And lastly, why did I not touch upon the other sets? Because they're not as capable of accentuating the mon's problematic traits as ironpress can- they're good sets for sure and have their place/role on teams, but....ultimately, these bulky boosting sets are seemingly always the factor that reveals a mon's true nature- see Ursaluna Bloodmoon, cm stored power Magearna (and various other mons on its wake still on this tier, which have made the move stored power so debated over even after all this time), and many other examples across various tiers and gens. And it's also why I firmly believe Zama-Crowned must NOT be given a real chance either (basically take everything I just said about zama above and up it to 11), and it's why various ubers being discussed above shouldn't be, either (most ESPECIALLY Lugia/Giratina).
TLDR: Zamazenta's combination of immense (unboosted) speed and bulk lets it exhibit the rest of its traits to tower over most of the tier with a(n arguably) relatively alarming amount of ease, and while it may not always be able to win right away, it can make use of resources like tera to overcome its few would be checks and, once those're gone, it can seal the game almost instantly with its speed and bulk quickly denying physically attacking revenge killing attempts almost entirely. While it can't run all of sub/roar/heavy slam at once, having the right one of these moves/choice of tera against a would be check allows the mon to prevail easily, and become significantly harder to take on from there, considering how little consistent counterplay to it there is outside of bulky unaware walls (and yes you can argue the mon is useless vs fat, however a mon doesn't need to be broken vs all playstyles to be considered problematic, as I'm sure most people already know).
Yeah I take back what I said about Lugia, that thing would be way too good with tera...
Maybe next gen we can test it since tera will be gone and it would be locked into Psychic/Flying (If it even makes it in)
But yeah Lugia shouldn't be discussed this gen anyway, it was too strong with tera especially with room tournaments that had it usable in there since yeah it could throw out it's horrendous defensive and offensive type that maybe would have made it bearable and became op when it clicked tera to get rid of that typing, and could set up for free.
TLDR: Lugia with tera would be too strong since the one thing that holds it back being its defensive type of psychic/flying that could make it reasonable doesn't matter in this meta when it can just click the tera button an become a water type for the most free setup ever.
Just thought I would make clear my stance on Lugia has changed and that thing shouldn't be tested until next gen if it is in the next gen since with tera allowed there is no way Lugia would be remotely balanced
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Imo there’s even sufficient counterplay to Zama rn.
Common cores like Lando + Gking or Gliscor + Pult do an excellent job in keeping Zama under control. There’s also hard checks to Zama like defensive Ghold and Sinistcha that work regardless of Tera types. Zapdos is on the rise again due to being a strong pivot that also checks Zama, and Molt has risen in usage.
One of the best ways in dealing with Zama is ironically forcing it in early, which can be done since Zama is often a team’s main switch in to physical attackers like Gambit, Weavile, Wogre, and even opposing Zamas, its also switching into Darkrai. Zama gets chipped and also doesn’t have the Dauntless Boost upon switching in again, making Body Press not nearly has strong as it would be at +3. You can then pair these mons with a response to Zama. Zama can also be lured with options like Wisp Rai or Tera Fairy Blast Gambit.
Offensive teams have ways of luring or checking Zama like Tera Ghost mons, Encore from Dnite, Val, or Wogre, Gholdengo, and Scarf Enam.
While yes, Zama is bulky enough to tank a Moonblast from Scarf Enamorus, its never at full in practice as it has to switch into its teammates, which are usually the aforementioned mons, so putting Zama in range of Moonblast is easy.
Thank you for this post. I feel that you have perfectly articulated many of the gripes about Zama that I was feeling but didn’t really know how to express.
I do think other Zama sets are part of the problem too. It’s difficult to discern Zama’s set on preview. The Volc ban largely reduced Zama’s 4MSS, making AoA banded or expert belt sets much more viable. Would-be checks to Zama’s ID set like Gliscor and Lando take massive damage from an expert belt boosted Ice Fang. Hatterene gets OHKO’d by a banded Heavy Slam after rocks. Et cetera. Overall there is not a ton of overlap between checks to the ID and AoA Zama sets.
While there are a plethora of checks to ID Zama, my main problem is that offensive all out attacking Zama sets are also common and can threaten many of these checks for massive damage. For example, in the core you mentioned, Expert Belt Zama can easily 2HKO Gliscor/Lando and Glowking as well as other components of these cores like Hatterene. Wisp Pult is worth mentioning as a consistent offensive check but it cannot switch safety into Zama; Expert Belt Zama can also straight up 1v1 it and survive at low health if it wants to at the cost of getting burned. And it can be difficult to discern the set on team preview, so there is always a major risk switching into Zama. Having one of these ID Zama checks take 60%+ to expert belt boosted coverage on the switch-in is a major hit for bulky teams that can often spiral into the losing the game.
Most of the discussion I’ve see about Zama only considers ID, but I feel that is the set variety and unpredictability that puts significant strain on the builder.
Finally, regarding physdef Ghold. ID Zama can be EV’d to 3HKO with Crunch after rocks chip. This puts Ghold on the backend using up recover PP and allows Zama to farm for a def drop.
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made it to 1700s using this mag team, the team is pretty flawed (insane trouble with kyurem(should i run a more specially defensive hat? idk thats the only thing i can think of to patch up that matchup), overall very slow other than moth.)
but mag has been pretty useful even when not trapping. https://pokepast.es/20f83a95cccba03b
but mag has been pretty useful even when not trapping. https://pokepast.es/20f83a95cccba03b
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I love the zone. But like, isn't the main point of Magnet Pull to remove and/or chip Steels like Corv so that your offensive threats that may otherwise be stopped by them can go wild? The only thing I see on your team that really fits this category is Rillaboom. Maybe Hatt? But Hatt is pretty slow.
It feels like you more tried to make an emphases out of hazard stack than anything else. That's cool. And I don't want to criticize your team structure too much. It's just not what I think of when I think Magnet Pull. Idk if it's still useful for you to isolate like a Corv trying to Defog (but then why don't you have a Ghost for spin blocking) or if you might want to run a different ability like Analytic. I'm just trying to picture how much benefit you are actually getting out of it.
For suggestions on threats, you could try running a Fairy type like Comfey or a Psychic type like Iron Crown. Maybe even something crazy like Iron Boulder, which is normally trash, but might actually be decent with support from Rillaboom and Magnezone. Not sure on that last one. I'm also not sure if you want to take it towards that direction. It's just what I felt when I looked at the team. Maybe something I said will be helpful. I don't know.
Honestly yea i just started with rilla and zone and kinda just did normal teambuilding stuff from there covering weaknesses, but honestly id still argue other than moth and obviously zone, everyone else appreciates corv being gone. It definitely feels flawed and im gonna be doing some different versions (made top 500 with it just a battle ago tho!) was thinking weavile is probably a good option, might replace samu with it and see how it goes. Maybe slap on a av on zone to make up for the worse pult and dengo matchup after samu is gone. Only problem with that is i get demolished by moth if i get rid of samu and kind of darkrai too :wah: idk. Also tbh trapping gambit is more what zone is doing in most battles, and i also didnt want to rely too much on zone that if he died early my whole team would be walled by corv/steel types.
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also related to this, ive had a shocking amount of games where i can bring in moth early and they have like 0 answers. Can often take like 3 kills early before getting revenged.
https://pokepast.es/65fa9ac5ade14e40
Here is a team designed around magnezone + scizor core. Havent used it in a while so not sure how it performs currently but this really leans on magnezone clearing steel types for scizor with magnet pull. physdef pelipper is there to hard counter gouging fire. garchomp + hazards to force chip damage. basically everything needed to allow a bullet punch sweep in the endgame
Pinkacross' YouTube channel is great for team building and laddering advice. He has peaked 1st twice this Gen I believe.
New personal record in the ladder at 1925. While A-Muk really struggles with Gliscor, it's really, really good aganist a lot the mons trending right now.
Leaving here the team I've been using if you want to test it out.
https://pokepast.es/62bd0e10bd1338e8
Nice poison fang tech, you dont see that move often. can i ask why you dont run any speed on scizor? scizor isnt really a slow uturn guy, and sometimes outspeeding corviknight, gambit, heatran etc. for a close combat makes the difference. you rank a good 150 elo above me rn so im interested in your thoughts on that.
I honestly run bulk on Scizor so it can take SR+Spikes twice and still live an Ogerpon Wellspring's Ivy Crudgel Also, lets you tank much better the hits from Kyurem, which is rn a pain in the ass to deal with. Ice Beam without bulk it's a 80%~to 2HKO, with bulk you always tank two.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While being faster would be amazing for Gambit, the fact that you can for example land the cc after the opponent roosts is also pretty good. Another advantage from being slow is that Scizor guarantees pivots vs Gliscor, because otherwise it's really hard to switch in aganist it with this team (and in general, tbh)
Also, thank you:) Poison Fang is a really cool (and annoying) move on Muk. If you have a bit of luck, you can 1v1 crazy stuff like Raging Bolt
Rekka's Backend asked me for my Milotic sets and I'll post here because I can't post over 420blazeit characters on my profile wall
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Hey, I usually run max HP max SpDef Calm.
robert (Milotic) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Recover
- Ice Beam/Haze/Whirlpool
You gotta be very active with reliable hazard removal when teambuilding but the idea here is this guy can blank pretty much any special attacker not named Modest Specs Walking Wake under the sun (which is why I go back and forth between Milotic and Vaporeon, it's a very difficult matchup without Water Absorb lol). Tera Fairy is to shed Grass/Electric weakness and to block Draco Meteors in case you got chipped over the course of a game. It also gives Fighting resistance which is good because mixed Valiant sets will fuck you up
Covert Cloak will no-sell Glimmora Mortal Spin, and will fuck over Garganacl, forcing a Tera and putting you in a very advantageous position because now you can Flip Turn into an Encore or something as they try and setup when they realize Salt Cure chip isn't going through. It also removes Shadow Ball/Discharge/Sludge Bomb/Nuzzle/younameit hax from the equation. Competitive is a bit counter-intuitive with Covert Cloak but it is intended to punish Defog, Intimidate, and Webs.
Scald will threaten pretty much anything. A 30% Burn will chip but also cripple any physical attackers and will make switch-ins much shakier because special attackers don't do trash and neither will physical attackers if they get burned. Flip Turn creates momentum. Recover is Recover. Ice Beam chips enemy Water Absorb and surprises Gliscor oneshotting PhysDef variants from full. You can opt for haze to blank enemy Calm Mind/Nasty Plot sweepers or Whirlpool for classic trapping shenanigans just like Magma Storm (lower damage initial hit, same DoT, higher accuracy).
Now, consider that this set cannot switch onto hazards reliably so be careful with hazard removal. Also, you have to have a hard counter to Waterpon because the motherfucker will deny Flip Turn and will try to set up on you every time you switch in.
That's pretty much it. I don't think this is meta or anything but it's a fun set and it does its job well enough. You can go HDB or fiddle with EVs to hit some speed benchmarks. People are voting taking out of the viability rankings which I think is bullshit. Lastly: you can fuck with Coil/Waterfall because it's a dumb set and will outright 6-0 some unprepared teams but it's really trash lol
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Hey, I usually run max HP max SpDef Calm.
robert (Milotic) @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Recover
- Ice Beam/Haze/Whirlpool
You gotta be very active with reliable hazard removal when teambuilding but the idea here is this guy can blank pretty much any special attacker not named Modest Specs Walking Wake under the sun (which is why I go back and forth between Milotic and Vaporeon, it's a very difficult matchup without Water Absorb lol). Tera Fairy is to shed Grass/Electric weakness and to block Draco Meteors in case you got chipped over the course of a game. It also gives Fighting resistance which is good because mixed Valiant sets will fuck you up
Covert Cloak will no-sell Glimmora Mortal Spin, and will fuck over Garganacl, forcing a Tera and putting you in a very advantageous position because now you can Flip Turn into an Encore or something as they try and setup when they realize Salt Cure chip isn't going through. It also removes Shadow Ball/Discharge/Sludge Bomb/Nuzzle/younameit hax from the equation. Competitive is a bit counter-intuitive with Covert Cloak but it is intended to punish Defog, Intimidate, and Webs.
Scald will threaten pretty much anything. A 30% Burn will chip but also cripple any physical attackers and will make switch-ins much shakier because special attackers don't do trash and neither will physical attackers if they get burned. Flip Turn creates momentum. Recover is Recover. Ice Beam chips enemy Water Absorb and surprises Gliscor oneshotting PhysDef variants from full. You can opt for haze to blank enemy Calm Mind/Nasty Plot sweepers or Whirlpool for classic trapping shenanigans just like Magma Storm (lower damage initial hit, same DoT, higher accuracy).
Now, consider that this set cannot switch onto hazards reliably so be careful with hazard removal. Also, you have to have a hard counter to Waterpon because the motherfucker will deny Flip Turn and will try to set up on you every time you switch in.
That's pretty much it. I don't think this is meta or anything but it's a fun set and it does its job well enough. You can go HDB or fiddle with EVs to hit some speed benchmarks. People are voting taking out of the viability rankings which I think is bullshit. Lastly: you can fuck with Coil/Waterfall because it's a dumb set and will outright 6-0 some unprepared teams but it's really trash lol