Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Achohermano]

I do agree that Kyurem is the most likely to get suspected / banned yeah. Waterpon is annoying, Darkrai is tricky to face and Zama/Gliscor/RMoon are imo a step below the "Big 3" in terms of amount of problems they bring to the tier.

Kyurem can nuke you with specs if the trainer that has predicted right aganist every single mon excepting Blissey. But the problem is that you can have 3-4 different sets with also different move and teras. So it's not like you can craft the "perfect" special Kyurem check. What if it's just mixed and you get slapped by Icicle Spear?
It's bulk is lower that what it seems (Kingambit can actually OHKO it with tera dark Sucker Punch, from full I'm not considerating Rocks in the equation) but it's not fragile by any means and it's on the "bulky" side of the tier while being giga strong. For Waterpon you can use Toxapex (which is tbh kinda bad in a lot of archetypes but I think it's underated) / Tera Dragon Dondozo or Dragonite, and for Darkrai you can pivot around, check it with Zama or just eat it with the chad itself A-Muk.

But for Kyurem I don't think there's a *viable* mon that can just check every variant. In fact, for specs the "answer" is being better than your opponent so Glowking has to pivot just twice. Because once Kyurem enters the field for 4th or 5th time, you're sacking a mon every single time from that point on.
Also, while it's "rare", Freezing an opponent is sometimes a game winning position. I have to admit that I've won, idk, 40 games this last couple of months? By a lucky freeze. 10% on every hit from Ice Beam and Freeze Dry is not that rare tbh.
I think that removing freeze from the tier as we did for sleep could be cool?

 

[AquiIo]

Just gonna say my perspective on the brokens of the tier:

I honestly feel like just because of tiering policy and since we had a somewhat recent Kyurem suspect we won't be seeing another one before a few other guys have been suspected unfortunately. Hope I'm wrong though. Definitely agree Kyurem is just really hard to prep for in teambuilder and in game when you have to figure out what your switch in is. Surely it won't click sub dd on your glowking switchin then tera steel? :clueless:

I think is at a similar level of problematic, also really hard to account for teambuilding wise and switch in wise and just doesn't bring much to the tier in return. Similarly to also serves as a massive impediment to fat and stall (which is bad!!)

is problematic but significantly less so imo, same with . Not super concerned abt either of these, wouldn't be opposed to a suspect down the road though.

and are fine.

 

[RS25802580]

Gonna be frank the higher I go up on the ladder the more Kyurem feels like it needs to go immediately. Waterpon is obnoxious and I hate it with every fiber of my being but Kyurem invalidates so many team styles/pokemon that it legit feels like a suffocating presence. Unless you get a para off on it a majority of the time it just nukes something from the history of mankind everytime it comes in.

I kinda hate it. Shit feels so awful to play against unless you have Glowking, and even with Glowking it can feel too dicey.

Agreed. Even AV Glowking can’t afford to get worn down too much since the teams that abuse Kyurem are also running other special threats like Valiant/Bolt to overload opposing Spdef cores. Kyurem feels like the nail in the coffin that pushes these offensive teams over the edge. Boots/Loaded Dice Kyurem is typically running Scale Shot or Icicle Spear to beat Glowking, so many times it’s not even a safe check.

 

[Alternator]

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 200-236 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 61-72 (12.1 - 14.2%) -- approx. possible 7HKO


That's Choice Scarf or HDB Meow, the banded set is a clean 2HKO. I'm not suggesting this is why Meowscarada is seeing higher usage (the reason is U-Turn), but it's a nice bonus.

 

[RS25802580]

252 Atk Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo on a critical hit: 200-236 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 61-72 (12.1 - 14.2%) -- approx. possible 7HKO


That's Choice Scarf or HDB Meow, the banded set is a clean 2HKO. I'm not suggesting this is why Meowscarada is seeing higher usage (the reason is U-Turn), but it's a nice bonus.

Team Meowscarada stays winning.

 

[Bold School]

I have an unpopular opinion, maybe, but I really don't get the Meowscarada hype. It's not that great a mon. Just ok. I like that GameFreak decided to try an offensive Grass type, but giving it Protean feels like a bit of a cop out. I know that Cinderace and Greninja are similar in that respect, but both Fire and Water types already had more viable fast offensive mons before they did that. Many of those Water types were not starters in particular, but still. It didn't feel like the only way to create a good fast, offensive mon of that type was to let it change type. It felt like a bonus. Both Gren and Ace also better mons, IMO, though maybe not for Gren in gen 9 since it was double nerfed. I still feel Gren is a Wellspring ban away from maybe being a problem, though.

Even from a creature design perspective, GameFreak missed the opportunity for a Dandylion pun and instead we got a Carnival Furry. I guess that makes some folks happy, but it's not my cup of tea. I don't know if maybe it is because it's a more feminine looking design?

Slight tangent, but I have a very specific pet peeve with GameFreak and how many good chances for Lion mons they left. All I ever wanted was a Lion pokemon with a glorious flaming mane the way some of the early Fire types like Rapidash has fire coming out of its body. That would be majestic as fuck. They made Solgaleo, which is a legendary lion based loosely on Sun symbolism, and they didn't make it Fire type. They made Pyroar, which is a Fire type lion, and never gave it a flaming mane. They also never made it good, sadly. There has even been that stupid Pokemon versus a billion lions meme going around for years now, and they still haven't done it. Every lion and almost every cat pokemon misses the mark for me. I don't even like that they turned Incineroar into Tony the Tiger instead of a real tiger pokemon.

Ok, my little tangent is done. Back to Meowscarada. The only success I have really had with it was running Tera Fire HDB on some of those slower semi-stall or bulky balance type teams where it's the only or one of only two main attackers and Knock Off is the primary way to make progress. But in this case, nearly anything viable with Knock Off and a good speed tier would do a similar job. I found Meow was good here because you could also hit Dozo and Garg, but other than that it's kinda lacking in power a bit. Not as much of a problem on slow burn teams. However, I noticed that when I tried using it on more offensive teams or even a bit less bulky balance, other mons like Weavile almost always performed better. 110 attack just isn't that great. Ace also does better since Fire is a desirable type in this Meta and you get the ability to flip hazards and/or screens. I almost never build around it anymore.

 

[BobbyHill]

I really cannot believe people were saying balance was good a few weeks ago. The meta has only changed by leaning more into the 3 broken balance breakers in the tier. It’s just sacrificing elo right now to go with a FAT structures with Oger, Kyurem, and Darkrai running around.

It’s a bummer these mons will be around for months. Feels near impossible to fit all the proper checks to offense on a balance/boots spam right now. There are also other excellent (but not broken) balance breakers like Moth and Bolt to deal with, it’s too easy for walls to get worn down.

Ive brought up how distugstingly broken Kyurem is for months and usually get the “get rocks up :)” response. Kyurem has 3-4 viable sets along with freeze chance.
For example, in the replay below, I used a fairly standard balance team but one freeze on Glowking and the rest of the game doesn’t matter. I get that my play wasn’t perfect but the advantage it has by freeze hunting really pushes it over the edge. I know we’re done with quick bans, but the way it invalidates an entire playstyle seems QB worthy to me Or at least worthy of some action more that “wait for Darkrai and Ogerpon to be suspected first”

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2142084441

 

[Avira]

The only success I have really had with it was running Tera Fire HDB on some of those slower semi-stall or bulky balance type teams where it's the only or one of only two main attackers and Knock Off is the primary way to make progress. But in this case, nearly anything viable with Knock Off and a good speed tier would do a similar job. I found Meow was good here because you could also hit Dozo and Garg, but other than that it's kinda lacking in power a bit.

If you're able to deal with hazards well, you could potentially try Expert Belt instead of HDB. With Expert Belt, you can 2HKO Dondozo and beef up your other Supereffective hits.

 

[Bold School]

If you're able to deal with hazards well, you could potentially try Expert Belt instead of HDB. With Expert Belt, you can 2HKO Dondozo and beef up your other Supereffective hits.

This is sort of how I prefer to run teams. I don't like running boots spam. Expert Belt was also something I thought of a bit back. My issue with it on Meow is the neutral hits still wind up being lacking. This is especially bad on the switch since there really isn't enough pressure much of the time.

In general, have a long list of sore sticking points I find inadequate on this mon, such as how it is 1 speed point lower than Ribombee and even fraud Iron Boulder, that all add up to where I just find it easier to use something else. I'd probably sound like a hater if I harped on it too much, but the bottom line is this mon has rarely ever felt great in my hands. I think it's primarily the 110 attack, though. It's really low for a glass cannon mon by gen 9 standards.

 

[RS25802580]

I have an unpopular opinion, maybe, but I really don't get the Meowscarada hype. It's not that great a mon. Just ok. I like that GameFreak decided to try an offensive Grass type, but giving it Protean feels like a bit of a cop out. I know that Cinderace and Greninja are similar in that respect, but both Fire and Water types already had more viable fast offensive mons before they did that. Many of those Water types were not starters in particular, but still. It didn't feel like the only way to create a good fast, offensive mon of that type was to let it change type. It felt like a bonus. Both Gren and Ace also better mons, IMO, though maybe not for Gren in gen 9 since it was double nerfed. I still feel Gren is a Wellspring ban away from maybe being a problem, though.

Even from a creature design perspective, GameFreak missed the opportunity for a Dandylion pun and instead we got a Carnival Furry. I guess that makes some folks happy, but it's not my cup of tea. I don't know if maybe it is because it's a more feminine looking design?

Slight tangent, but I have a very specific pet peeve with GameFreak and how many good chances for Lion mons they left. All I ever wanted was a Lion pokemon with a glorious flaming mane the way some of the early Fire types like Rapidash has fire coming out of its body. That would be majestic as fuck. They made Solgaleo, which is a legendary lion based loosely on Sun symbolism, and they didn't make it Fire type. They made Pyroar, which is a Fire type lion, and never gave it a flaming mane. They also never made it good, sadly. There has even been that stupid Pokemon versus a billion lions meme going around for years now, and they still haven't done it. Every lion and almost every cat pokemon misses the mark for me. I don't even like that they turned Incineroar into Tony the Tiger instead of a real tiger pokemon.

Ok, my little tangent is done. Back to Meowscarada. The only success I have really had with it was running Tera Fire HDB on some of those slower semi-stall or bulky balance type teams where it's the only or one of only two main attackers and Knock Off is the primary way to make progress. But in this case, nearly anything viable with Knock Off and a good speed tier would do a similar job. I found Meow was good here because you could also hit Dozo and Garg, but other than that it's kinda lacking in power a bit. Not as much of a problem on slow burn teams. However, I noticed that when I tried using it on more offensive teams or even a bit less bulky balance, other mons like Weavile almost always performed better. 110 attack just isn't that great. Ace also does better since Fire is a desirable type in this Meta and you get the ability to flip hazards and/or screens. I almost never build around it anymore.

I like Meowscarada because it manages to carve out a niche for itself despite the incessant power creep of two DLCs. It’s a fair mon. Not at the top of the VR by any means but it can still pull weight on the right teams. Meow feels like the OU epitome of “it ain’t much but it’s honest work”.

 

[Roshino]

Gonna be frank the higher I go up on the ladder the more Kyurem feels like it needs to go immediately. Waterpon is obnoxious and I hate it with every fiber of my being but Kyurem invalidates so many team styles/pokemon that it legit feels like a suffocating presence. Unless you get a para off on it a majority of the time it just nukes something from the history of mankind everytime it comes in.

I kinda hate it. Shit feels so awful to play against unless you have Glowking, and even with Glowking it can feel too dicey.

I fully agree. I enjoy playing balance and there's no way around it - I have to surrender to centralization and play Glowking if I don't want to get an immediate loss from team preview if the other player is minimally competent and is running Kyurem. The only non-tera special wall that works to check it is Glowking and even then it has a 10% chance to massively swing the game right then and there because of freeze. Blissey gets punked by Icicle Spear, Unaware sets get murdered by super-effective damage. Toxapex and other Water-types can't take Freeze-Dry. Shit's psychotic.

Are there any obscure counters to ponder? The only thing I can think of is running some stupid Tera Ice shenanigan to wall non-Body Press sets. Using Ice as a defensive type is absolutely demented, not to mention that this thought exercise fully commits Tera.

Shit sucks

 

[SittinGamer]

I fully agree. I enjoy playing balance and there's no way around it - I have to surrender to centralization and play Glowking if I don't want to get an immediate loss from team preview if the other player is minimally competent and is running Kyurem. The only non-tera special wall that works to check it is Glowking and even then it has a 10% chance to massively swing the game right then and there because of freeze. Blissey gets punked by Icicle Spear, Unaware sets get murdered by super-effective damage. Toxapex and other Water-types can't take Freeze-Dry. Shit's psychotic.

Are there any obscure counters to ponder? The only thing I can think of is running some stupid Tera Ice shenanigan to wall non-Body Press sets. Using Ice as a defensive type is absolutely demented, not to mention that this thought exercise fully commits Tera.

Shit sucks

I assume primarily because of Kyurem, but I've seen people talking about Banded Scizor as something which is carving a decent niche.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Are there any obscure counters to ponder? The only thing I can think of is running some stupid Tera Ice shenanigan to wall non-Body Press sets. Using Ice as a defensive type is absolutely demented, not to mention that this thought exercise fully commits Tera.

I've been largely running max HP and/or SPD invested Tink to deal with it. With balloon you can at minimum bait an earth power, or live an ice beam and get off hopefully a successful thunderwave. Glowking is another obvious one for similar reasons, but encore/para on Kyurem typically lets you open up enough holes to deal with it assuming you got higher speed investment.

I just hate how much this shitty dragon ruins things.

 

[RS25802580]

I fully agree. I enjoy playing balance and there's no way around it - I have to surrender to centralization and play Glowking if I don't want to get an immediate loss from team preview if the other player is minimally competent and is running Kyurem. The only non-tera special wall that works to check it is Glowking and even then it has a 10% chance to massively swing the game right then and there because of freeze. Blissey gets punked by Icicle Spear, Unaware sets get murdered by super-effective damage. Toxapex and other Water-types can't take Freeze-Dry. Shit's psychotic.

Are there any obscure counters to ponder? The only thing I can think of is running some stupid Tera Ice shenanigan to wall non-Body Press sets. Using Ice as a defensive type is absolutely demented, not to mention that this thought exercise fully commits Tera.

Shit sucks

Completely agree with you. It’s also worth mentioning that Glowking needs AV to avoid a 2HKO from Tera Ice boosted Ice Beam. Which then leaves it susceptible to hazards chip…

Glowking also gets melted by mixed Kyurem. I’ve seen Loaded Dice Icicle Spear + 3 Special Attacks Kyurem designed specifically to bait in Glowking and destroy it. This opens up partners like Valiant to sweep and win.

 

[Roshino]

I've been largely running max HP and/or SPD invested Tink to deal with it. With balloon you can at minimum bait an earth power, or live an ice beam and get off hopefully a successful thunderwave. Glowking is another obvious one for similar reasons, but encore/para on Kyurem typically lets you open up enough holes to deal with it assuming you got higher speed investment.

I just hate how much this shitty dragon ruins things.

Yeah. The issue with Tink is it has a single opportunity to answer and cripple back, and if they manage to get another switch in Tink can't do much- once balloon pops you're out of luck, so you need to get hazards up no matter what, and still have something like AV Crown to push it back repeatedly.

Completely agree with you. It’s also worth mentioning that Glowking needs AV to avoid a 2HKO from Tera Ice boosted Ice Beam. Which then leaves it susceptible to hazards chip…

Glowking also gets melted by mixed Kyurem. I’ve seen Loaded Dice Icicle Spear + 3 Special Attacks Kyurem designed specifically to bait in Glowking and destroy it. This opens up partners like Valiant to sweep and win.

Yeah. The fact it 2hkoes 244+ spdef Glowking without needing to go mixed is a war crime. In theory you could go to a neutral defensive typing like Sylveon and go full spdef. Sylveon at 252+ spdef doesn't take any super-effective hits, evades the 2hko from Icicle Spear and Tera Ice Specs Ice Beam, and it threatens to ohko with uninvested Hyper Voice after rocks. It would actually be pretty good if it still had Baton Pass to pivot/wishpass back onto an offensive threat with Wish+Protect

Also, Glowking's Chilly Reception sets give Kyurem a 50% snow defense boost because fuck the player that's why. This means it is very likely to survive a Banded Scizor Bullet Punch. 125/90/90 bulk on a 130 mixed attacking breaker with near-perfect coverage is very difficult to stop.

 

[hobreezy]

Yeah. The issue with Tink is it has a single opportunity to answer and cripple back, and if they manage to get another switch in Tink can't do much- once balloon pops you're out of luck, so you need to get hazards up no matter what, and still have something like AV Crown to push it back repeatedly.



Yeah. The fact it 2hkoes 244+ spdef Glowking without needing to go mixed is a war crime. In theory you could go to a neutral defensive typing like Sylveon and go full spdef. Sylveon at 252+ spdef doesn't take any super-effective hits, evades the 2hko from Icicle Spear and Tera Ice Specs Ice Beam, and it threatens to ohko with uninvested Hyper Voice after rocks. It would actually be pretty good if it still had Baton Pass to pivot/wishpass back onto an offensive threat with Wish+Protect

Also, Glowking's Chilly Reception sets give Kyurem a 50% snow defense boost because fuck the player that's why. This means it is very likely to survive a Banded Scizor Bullet Punch. 125/90/90 bulk on a 130 mixed attacking breaker with near-perfect coverage is very difficult to stop.

I've been using Sylv throughout SV and while as you mentioned it's a really solid Kyurem check, from using it on the ladder it can feel a bit inconsistent at the moment. Other than the obvious freeze procs which limit any Kyurem check, there are two main things holding it back rn. The first is relying on Wish for recovery and the second are the dangerously strong poison special attackers in the tier.

In regards to the former, Sylveons only reliable recovery is through wish which allows the opponent to either wear it down slowly or open up setup opportunities through forcing protect to recover. Mons like Gambit, Ghold, Glisc, Iron Moth, Cinderace, and pretty much anything that resists fairy can switch in and have a significant advantage after sylv has absorbed Kyurems hit. Sylv can go for the read to chip whatever switches in, but without SpA investment it doesn't hit all that hard and it needs that SpD investment to properly check Kyurem.

The second issue is all of the strong special attackers with poison STAB or poison coverage, namely Iron Moth and tera poison Darkrai. I've seen plenty of teams on ladder load up one of these two alongside Kyurem and even when they aren't paired, it nearly always requires sylv to Tera to be useful in the match. My personal favorite sylv sets run Tera Blast (Tera ground or water) over hyper voice allowing her to change her STAB and be more useful in games without Kyurem. I'd definitely recommend trying it if you give her a chance

On the note of the second reason why Sylv feels inconsistent to me, trying to build a balance team in a tier with Kyurem, Moth, and Darkrai feels really hard. I don't think Moth is broken and Darkrai doesn't feel too pressing, but I've yet to find a mon outside of glowking that can be a blanket Special check and even glowking can be forced to Tera against Kyurem or Darkrai making it sometimes feel shakey. I feel like for balance and fat, it's almost required right now to have two strong specially defensive switch ins that can handle the coverage between the dragons spearheaded by Kyurem, Bolt, and Wake, and the poisons lead by Darkrai and Moth.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

I feel like for balance and fat, it's almost required right now to have two strong specially defensive switch ins that can handle the coverage between the dragons spearheaded by Kyurem, Bolt, and Wake, and the poisons lead by Darkrai and Moth.

This is the exact experience I'd had thus far. I don't typically play HO and try to build balance/fat cores, and every single time it becomes a game of "how many strong switch ins do I need before I get to play the game?" simply due to the fact the amount of explosive carrying animals around. it's so, unbearably frustrating to deal with unless you centrialize so hard you end up with 4 teamslots occupied minimum.

Again, I think Kyurem going first would be a great start. Kyurem, Waterpon, and Darkrai going would do a lot towards balancing the tier and making it less hostile overall. Then with those three gone, seeing what is still overwhelming some headway could be made would be appreciated.

 

[Finchinator]

Hey everyone, we have a new tiering survey up! Be sure to take a look at it here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10149683

 

[Finchinator]

Given the above tiering survey, here is how I will respond!

Enjoyment: 8 -- this is not my favorite question because it is entirely in the eye of the beholder, but I play 10-20 games a day between ladder and tournaments and I definitely am having fun. Some quality of life improvements with a potential suspect or two can help, but for now I rate it sufficiently.

Competitive: 8 -- I feel the further out from the choppy, repeated releases and the series of suspects we needed earlier this year, the more naturally balanced the tier has grown. I find the better player winning far more often than not, teambuilding is easier now than it was at the beginning of the year, and most archetypes are viable. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, Darkrai and even Kyurem/Wellspring are rough for balance to handle no matter their configuration, varied set-mix boosters like Zamazenta or Gouging Fire can be menacing to offense, and stall can be hit-or-miss to an uneasy degree, but I think that the majority is good here.

5/5 -- Darkrai is the only Pokemon I would for sure suspect right now, and my lean (not definitive) would be ban. It makes balance very hard to be consistently playable; it is a weird case as people took months to find the right ways to use it and the best sets for it, but then it exploded ever since March or April. NP 3A is fantastic, but even EB4A or NP2A with Wisp can pop off. Nearly flawless coverage, aside from like Tinkaton, and great speed/SAtk eventually came out on top.

3/5 -- Not vehemently opposed to a suspect, but I do feel the metagame has gotten a little better against it than SPL. It is still fantastic and can handpick what checks/counters it aside from Amoonguss, which is a pretty mediocre Pokemon. U-turn allows for it to hit Serp/Rillaboom while pivoting around, PR hits Pult/Kyurem, Knock is used on occasion, etc. -- hard to go wrong here honestly. I guess I see it "sweep" less with Trailblaze and use SD less in general now, which makes it more of a breaker, but this does not take away from overall viability or perceived brokenness really. I think faster paced teams can stifle it and the burden on other teams is slightly lesser than Darkrai or even Kyurem.

4/5 -- Was between 3 and 4 on this, but went with 4. Still wish it got banned earlier this year and wish it did not exist as it would open up so many structures, but for now we still have GKing all over the metagame and there are many avenues to pressure or Tera out of Kyurem trouble, so it is certainly playable. I feel Kyurem deserves a suspect regardless, but I do not view it as a top priority and it tends to be a little cyclical with usage and counterplay, so this is subject to change of course.

Zamazenta, Kingambit, and Raging Bolt I all gave a 2. Zama is arguably the best Pokemon around now and it can do so much, but I think it is just great, not broken, as there are tons of counterplay options and even some overlap across variants + it does not really punish wrong initial switches too much relative to others. Kingambit and Raging Bolt do not stand out to a broken degree to me either, but best to keep an eye on.

 

[AquiIo]

My initial responses:

and I gave a 5, , , and I gave a 3, and I gave a 2.

Both Pon and Kyu are really hard to prepare for in builder and while playing - would be checks are often set-dependent and can easily be worn down or just surprised by a coverage option. Encore on Pon and Sub on Kyu make certain counterplay far more dangerous and risky.

is definitely the worst out of the 3s and honestly wasn't sure whether to rate it 3 or 4, so I just chose one. Yes there's a lot of set variety and its coverage is excellent, but it feels like with proper teambuilding darkrai is a lot more manageable when it hits the field than kyu or waterpon, especially into balanced builds. Ting Lu, Glowking after tera, and AV Prim are the first three that jump to mind but I feel Krai has a lot more checks and more consistent ones overall. Would likely vote ban but overall am less opposed to this guy than the previous two.

Zama and Bolt can easily take over games if you misplay one turn, but both have a decent amount of counterplay and while often very threatening have very solid checks. I am not too concerned about this and while not opposed to a suspect would likely be on the DNB side (were I to get reqs).

(also ban dhengo and rmoon!! let big stall reign once more!!)

 

[Heatranator]

Alright, survey time. Came around quicker than I thought. (won't explain them, too tired rn)

3

5

5

2

3

2

Basically, ban waterpon and kyurem. While darkrai and raging bolt are somewhat troubling to deal with, I don't think they should be banned. Kingambit and zamazenta are top mons, but not banworthy. Both have large counterplay that is splashable.

 

[Tysonslayer]

Enjoyment 6 and Competitiveness 2: Tier can potentially be fun, but as of right now, it is horrible due to the many restricting stuff that completely demotivates to play ever so frequently or pain to make effective teams where the players are almost guaranteed to have one broken stuff since the meta revolves around “broken checks broken”. I’ve heard arguments that the tier is balanced, which, truthfully, it isn’t building, is constraining. I will most likely use a broken or insane glue mon, just not to be farmed by these mons that affect the tier. A ban would make huge improvements even tho one side will be mad since it might not be the problem or that’s not what you wanted to suspect. A change needs to happen as a whole to make the metagame better, whether it helps or not. I assure you there are 3 problematic mons as of right now, but one in particular stands out.

: The biggest problem right now is that it owns an entire playstyle on its own, while it is tricky to prepare for with a wide variety of moves, making a formidable breaker. Ice Beam, Focust Blast, and Sludge Bomb are the most common moves you see as they hit the majority of the tier outside of Tinkaton, while you can even argue the usage of something like Psyshock to better pressure Zamazenta, Clodsire, and Blissey. Coverage doesn't only benefit Dakrai but great utility options that can be useful for teammates like Will-O-Wisp, crippling Zamazenta, and Kingambit, or Knock Off, removing crucial items from would-be checks. This variety of move options allows Darkrai to mess around with what it wants to beat or lose. This also does not include Nasty Plot’s ability to make it a more significant threat than it already is. These great traits, along with using different items to help it with all sorts of stuff, Focus Sash, Expert Belt, Life Orb, Boots, and so much more potential with diverse options as a potent breaker, make it a huge strain for teams as Dakrai without the correct answer, if you even prepared for the one you hoped to face.

: Finchinator covered most of what I wanted to say, though considering many teams slap Galarian Slowking, it makes it prominent for mixed and physical variants to become much more popular to beat Galarian Slowking and other would-be answers. Kyurem will only get worse the more it stays; sure, the argument is that it’s rocks weak, and relying on specs for power is one thing, but the thing with Kyurem is how adaptable it can be. In WCOP, it severely weakens stuff or claims about 1-2 mons on its own; if lucky, the freeze can catch another, while the increase of different sets continues as we see more boots variants, whether it unique, mixed, occasional dragon dance sets with loaded dice, specs still a potent breaker, and so much more yet to be explored. Preparing for the kyurem is tricky cause you don’t know what set it could be, thinking it’s mixed or physical, or you can just run a special kyurem with dragon dance to effectively sweep at the end. I don't think Kyurem is a top priority like Darkrai, I would hope for a suspect once whatever the first thing tested would, but Kyurem will continue to adapt new sets that might be specific or be effective that it worth continuing use just for how potent it is along with its other sets.

: This mon is another huge strain to many teams, though effectively is held back due to lack of items, in a speed tier where other mons can revenge kill it quickly, and has a few "reliable" answers, voted this 5 its probably closer to 4, the community claims this is the biggest outlier though Darkrai serves as top priority right now and maybe Kyurem after. As much as I can agree with these claims on why it should be gone, we should put our differences to the side and handle the more constricting mons that are not only incredibly potent but are slowly adapting in new ways that will only make it much more constraining for the tier the longer they stay. Ogerpon-W suspect may eventually come, there's just more important stuff to take care of.

: Iron Defense and Body Press can win games independently, but Zamazenta isn't a priority as much as the other mons above. At least with this mon, there are more reliable answers depending on the set. Despite how oppressive Zamazena can be, it also greatly benefits many teams. Annoying, yes, but it is not worth testing yet.

: Both of these mons I truly can understand why they are deemed problematic, though I don't consider them as such. Raging Bolt, with the right openings, can win effectively, though most teams have faster priority users, ground + fat special wall, or even something like encore that can hinder it, but Raging Bolt can still be a nuisance despite these setbacks. Kingambit has been here for a while don't consider it to be part of the problem, it itself is valuable to many teams offering a Steel and Ghost resist, while having few answers, same thing like Raging Bolt can be a nuisance, not as much as the other mons above.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Impressions cuz I wanna be important and apart of things;

enjoyment: 5/10. Middle of the road, I enjoy playing when I get to play normal matches but some of the experiences is just miserable.

Competitive: 7/10. I think its a 'competitive' environment insofar if you wholefully embrace the rigid teamslots to answer the top ones. Bit boring to me at times, but I can see how people enjoy it innately.

Kyurem: 5/5. This thing is arguably the biggest nightmare in my team building right now and the sheer girth of sets it has is unquestionably why its hard to guess. More Kyurem's are running mixed to snipe SPD walls and it's not going to get better. Get it out.

Zama: 4/5. It's barely kept in checked at the moment in my humble view. A lot of the special attackers in the tier manage to keep it in check, but without them I feel like it'll run even more wild than it usually does. While not outwardly broken, I feel like keeping it around to make sure Gambit or some shit doesn't go crazy isn't impressive to me argument wise.

Waterpon: 5/5. Get it out, I hate this fucking thing and having to play around with a no draw back crit machine smacking switch ins.

Gambit: 5/5. I have talked about G*mbit before in the past and its 50/50 gameplay has professionally made me a Okidogi chad so I can at least praise it for that.

Raging Bolt: 4. Very much borderline to me at times in how it requires very careful play despite its pretty generic sets, but at least is much easier to encore and deal with.

Darkrai: 5/5. Another one that is absurdly suffocating to the tier, and one I think is only being held back by Glowking and other walls. While Kyurem feels like the posterchild for this, Darkrai is hiding in its shadow and working in tandem to overwhelm a lot of bulkier structures. If Kyurem goes, Darkrai's gonna do the exact same thing, Albeit without the physical aspect.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

3. i'm still not convinced it's worse than waterpon or kyurem yet, but i'm definitely starting to suspect i might have been onto something back in the teal mask days. it's just too damn fast and too damn strong to be healthy but i don't agree with it being the biggest problem right now

5. the fact that waterpon is as straightforward as she is and yet we've been struggling to deal with her since last september indicates a massive unaddressed problem. can we just kill this mon with hammers already or do i have to start giving her silly names and annoy everyone into it again?

2. this mon is stupid good, but there's consistent and viable counterplay to it and it doesn't constrict the meta or force things onto certain structures, which puts it head and shoulders above half the fucking meta in terms of health

5. guess which mon does constrict the meta and force things onto certain structures? yeah. glowking is all over the place, it's true, but the fact that it needs to be all over the place isn't healthy or good, and kyurem is definitely one of the factors in that. also, the dnb arguments for it in the last suspect were so bad that i can't ever vote anything besides 5 on this mon again ("but guise we need it to deal with arch rain!!!!")

2. this thing is a dumb 50/50 machine but apparently we as a community are just accepting that as a core element of the game now and i don't really have any other arguments against its existence so why even bother

5. fuck this mon forever

 

[Eeveeto]

Waterpon: 5
Raging Bolt: 5
Darkrai: 4
Kingambit: 4
Kyurem: 1 (though probably should have voted 2 now that I think about it)
Zamazenta: 1

Won't elaborate.