Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Avira]

It’s bc in every pvp game ever, noobs gravitate to passive/reactive styles of play rather than aggressive/proactive ones.

Do you actually game at all, let alone even play Smogon tiers? 'Cause this take is very divorced from reality.

Noobs on low ladder of PokemonShowdown play offense for the most part since offense is what is considered fun. These are the types of players who accuse Smogon of protecting stall when Smogon bans a mon regardless of whether the ban negatively or positively impacts stall.

In League of Legends, people who start out playing for the first time generally aren't looking to play the support role, which is the most passive, reactive style, when they all want to beat the opponent in farming minions themselves and pushing their opponents out of the lane with their own play since playing support is not as fun.

I'm convinced you don't actually game at all, Big Chiken, because most people who play games are in it for fun and mashing buttons with offense is what in my experience most noobs consider fun.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

If Alomomola, a mon that’s only A rank, is broken after a Waterpon ban, then it will be looked into.

Fucking thank you. Like I don't get this idea that Alo is going to immediately surge up in usage and cause us all to drown in wish pass protect sets when there's a plethora of ways to play around it; everything from trapping, to common taunt usage, etc. I can see why people might be worried about Garg as such, but Waterpon isn't the one thing holding that beast back either when it often just tera's to something that it isn't weak to in the first place. If Garg is an issue insofar as with others, then yeah let's toss it

but even in my humble experience here Garg hasn't given me a massive amount of issues in comparison to usual HO or offense cores. And those are the ones that have a select few key figures that cause them to be difficult to parse as such; I'd had the highest success vs a lot of stall with only Gilscor often being the biggest annoyance in the room as well. It's another mon that deserves to be looked at, especially when the few reliable ice move using mons which are the bigger demons are the one reason its not more ridiculous than it already was.

...Which is exactly why if something is a huge issue for any team style, we see how it fairs and remove it as such. Darkrai and Kyurem should go, and if Garg/Gilscor is too stuffocating then them too. This fearmongering about how the dirty big stall is going to come break into our homes with Kyurem and Waterpon gone is a bit insane actually. I remember how Volc was the only guy holding back Rillaboom from terrorizing the tier and Villiant was going to run us over with its car. (Which, by the way, if Valliant has been constantly hovering in questionability then its worth looking at after everything else)

 

[LOOR]

Something I want to highlight is the discourse around bans and wellspring in particular being really flawed. A very common retort to wellspring being broken is that “yeah it's very strong, but tbh it's what's saving the tier from alo hell!!” Want to preface this by saying that I have no hate to these players, we're all entitled to our opinions.







I really dislike and disagree with this line of thinking. If you legitimately believe that wellspring is not broken, then fine, that's a legitimate opinion to have. However, often I see justifications for wellspring not on how broken it is or isn't, but for how is stops somebody's personal pet peeve of the tier and should therefore stay. This is a non argument that we should have long left behind as a community. This line of reasoning was rampant in the volc suspect, where people continuously conjured a boogeyman that volc was holding back. It didn't matter that volc had a billion sets it could use and the perfect kit to abuse tera and snowball, but people conjured up worse mons that volc was somehow stopping and that, if banned, the tier would reduce to chaos. From valiant to enamorus to rillaboom. And guess what, these are not mysteriously broken. This happened with kyurem as well where people fear mongered about how good rain would be without it, leading to a very narrow DNB except for the fact that rain got obliterated two weeks later. Womp womp. These are frankly not legitimate reasons, and the reason people use these arguments is because I suspect they think that arguments solely on the mon not being broken wouldn't be sufficient. Baloor legitimately talks about how annoying and powerful Waterpon is, but theorizes that if Kyurem goes, the meta will potentially adapt to Waterpon and we won't have to ban it. Fine, but that's fantasy, and Waterpon is powerful enough that it's very likely it'll still go anyways after. I agree with a Kyurem ban, but I don't agree with Baloor's line of reasoning behind it, as a means of keeping Waterpon to stop wish-pass Mola. If Alomomola, a mon that’s only A rank, is broken after a Waterpon ban, then it will be looked into. As well, frankly, the problem with this tier is not defensive, its offensive; there are a plethora of strong offensive threats and they limit defensive counterplay. There’s no point fear mongering about something when ideas on whether or not it will be broken or not after the case are pure fantasy and guesswork.

I have historically preached how much i hate the broken checks broken argument for this tier but we are at a point where we have to value certain evils to keep things relatively stable. the tier already blows, wishpass mola meta would easily be the worst meta we would ever have. yes the issue with the tier is the over saturation of offensive threats and I would love balance to have more room to breathe in game and builder, I outlined my post to describe the immediate direction I feel is best for tier health. in a theoretical world where we ban kyu and darkrai and this problem still exists then we can look at waterpon, i gave it a 3 for a reason. I did not say do not ban waterpon at all, i gave it a 3, this is simply the direction I think is best for general tier health as thats the main issue and not that theres a ton of egregiously broken pokemon. gen9 is a tier beyond conventional tiering and conventional thinking clearly is not going to work, if it was so cut and dry like you think it is then tera wouldve went a long while ago.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Fucking thank you. Like I don't get this idea that Alo is going to immediately surge up in usage and cause us all to drown in wish pass protect sets when there's a plethora of ways to play around it; everything from trapping, to common taunt usage, etc. I can see why people might be worried about Garg as such, but Alo isn't the one thing holding that back either when it often just tera's to something that it isn't weak to in the first place. If Garg is an issue insofar as with others, then yeah let's toss it

but even in my humble experience here Garg hasn't given me a massive amount of issues in comparison to usual HO or offense cores. And those are the ones that have a select few key figures that cause them to be difficult to parse as such; I'd had the highest success vs a lot of stall with only Gilscor often being the biggest annoyance in the room as well. It's another mon that deserves to be looked at, especially when the few reliable ice move using mons which are the bigger demons are the one reason its not more ridiculous than it already was.

...Which is exactly why if something is a huge issue for any team style, we see how it fairs and remove it as such. Darkrai and Kyurem should go, and if Garg/Gilscor is too stuffocating then them too. This fearmongering about how the dirty big stall is going to come break into our homes with Kyurem and Waterpon gone is a bit insane actually. I remember how Volc was the only guy holding back Rillaboom from terrorizing the tier and Villiant was going to run us over with its car. (Which, by the way, if Valliant has been constantly hovering in questionability then its worth looking at after everything else)

The funny part is that I doubt Alomomola would even be broken even if we banned waterpon, despite being a crazy wish passer. If anything, I think Alomomola being better could be actually helpful for achieving a healthy meta. I do think while mola would be super splashable with waterpon and kyurem gone I doubt it would be broken, just more splashable which I don't see as a bad thing

 

[GummyRowlets]

Pokemon Of The Week: Hi! Once again guys. Sorry for this late post. It was way more delayed mainly just due to my internship I started recently causing me lots of stress and less time overall. Hope you guys understand and have time to introduce ourselves!!!

Offensive Ogerpon-Cornerstone

(I couldn't find one about cornerstone D:)
Poor Ogerpon-Cornerstone has always lived in the shadows of ogerpon water. Despite having an objectively better offensive typing, with grass/ rock being able to hit almost every Pokemon in the metagame for neutral except Kambit and Gholdengo, Ogerpon-Cornerstone's lack of any good resistances like ogerpon-water with ground, water, and steel making cornerstone a chore just to bring in. Even normal ogerpon grass has found more recent success with it having a home on boot spam teams utilizing its already great move pool with boots for pivoting now to bring speed and utility to a team. The only time Ogerpon Rock was ever OU is when people found the potential of a 100% insane until iron boulder ruined everyone's day/ With all of his poor rock ogerpon struggles to fit a niche that its other sisters can do, what hope is there for poor cornerstone? One answer. SD and destroy everything in sight.
Team
Ogerpon Cornerstone was an interesting man to me as the builder. Its typing offensively was pretty good and it always hit most physical walls for decent damage bare minimum or even super effective for the case of and . My main issue was that despite dealing great damage to most physical after a 1v1, it could never win in a direct 1v1 without becoming unscathed after a swords dance. It could two-shot most walls like corviknight or Gliscor after an SD but right after it would be revenged with its middling speed tier, but seeing how effectively it brought physical wall common threats it gave birth to the idea of a physical spam team. With Ogerpon Cornerstone taking down physical walls quite effectively, other physical attackers like , , and are all opened up to take advantage of this. With this, I started on a physical spam team

I'm grouping them due to their similar and predictable role but due to the nature of ogerpon horrid defensive typing, I wanted to pivoting on this type of team and some type of defensive backbone. Lando's main role is just hazards and stopping Pokemon who use moves that also raise defense like or . These Pokemon that raise defenses would destroy my team if not for my man Lando carrying me against them. I'm EV just to outspeed max speed . Glowking main role was as a way to switch into ID Pokemon like or and use Ice beam to force some chip. I typically prefer Twave on glowking but is a bad match-up for me without a strong ground-type attacker so I opted for Toxic instead.

Kingambit @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
What other Pokemon would benefit from physical walls gone than the most dam used mon in the tier itself: Kingambit. Nothing is crazy about this set but due to the much more offensive nature of this team, I opted out of my typicall leftoverset and went all in on the sucker gameplan with tera dark and black glasses. I opted for max speed mainly for the reason that Pokemon tends to reach the benchmark for adamant max speed Kambit nowadays. Meaning you either go bulky or jolly in my opinion. Max speed allows me to beat most and in situations where ogerpon rock couldn't beat them but did cause some chip. One more reason for Kambit here is also to just switch into Gholdengo, which is overall a massive threat defensively to this entire team.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Crunch/ Heavy Press
- Roar
Probably the most obvious addition but being one of the best mons in the tier adding Zama was a no-brainer. With Pokemon like , , :Landorous-Therian: weakened/ fainted Zama could thrives and pretty much auto-win in so many matchups. Zama was also chosen for the speed but also the defensive backbone in a funny way. With Lando being my pseudo check to Pokemon that stops my physical spam idea like bulk up tusk, id bp zama, and breaking swipe gouging, it can find itself being overwhelmed and needing assistance. Roar Zama solves this and just helps against other cheesy strategies in general.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone (F) @ Cornerstone Mask
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip
- Encore
I decided on going with the most obvious move-set with Powerwhip chosen to more specifically two shot in the stall match-up. I did opt of the common knock or superpower though. I opted out of knock mainly due to the team's faster momentum. I only ever see knock as mandatory on balance teams that make progress slowly but surely. Superpower also wasn't chosen just due to how well my team could deal with ' and . Encore is mainly used for priority users like bolt but sometimes also Kambit. It can even be used on more bulky physical attackers that use dd or sd since tera raises ogerpon defense as well.


(F) @ Eject Button
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 Spe
Bold Nature
- Healing Wish
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nuzzle
This was the most interesting Pokemon but it ended up working well. Due to no tusk, ace, or hazard control, I needed something that could either help offensively or help my physical attackers. And with nuzzle to aid ogerpon, a healing wish to restore health, and magic bounce to stop most hazards, adding this Pokemon seemed like a no-brainer to me.

Overall Thoughts and Opinions: This team idea I first had and utilized ended up working far more than i thought. With good support, priority, and zama, it felt like the team could deal with most of the meta, and ogerpon rock did right what it needed. Weakening physical walls for not just itself but the whole team enabled my zama so many times to get rid of tera ghost scarm and gliscors everywhere. Sometimes even ogerpon was even sweeping in the right circumstances. I enjoyed using ogerpon and working on a more offensive team.

VOTING TIME
Time for the next Pokemon :D
Rules:
1. These sets are considered to change but the main idea will remain. Meaning I may replace a move on a pokemon but still keep the main idea
2. To vote each pokemon will be assigned an emote (wow, haha, sad, etc.) said right after there title with a colon. You will emote with the one you want next on the post next week. By the end of tomorrow of this time, whoever receives the most, will become a team and I will make a post like this one once again like next week.

- Heavy Duty Boots Utility Walking Wake
: Emote Wow

- Swords Dance Iron Leaves
: Emote Sad

- Tank Chomp
: Emote Angry

Thank you all again :D.

 

[June Heat]

Something I want to highlight is the discourse around bans and wellspring in particular being really flawed. A very common retort to wellspring being broken is that “yeah it's very strong, but tbh it's what's saving the tier from alo hell!!” Want to preface this by saying that I have no hate to these players, we're all entitled to our opinions.







I really dislike and disagree with this line of thinking. If you legitimately believe that wellspring is not broken, then fine, that's a legitimate opinion to have. However, often I see justifications for wellspring not on how broken it is or isn't, but for how is stops somebody's personal pet peeve of the tier and should therefore stay. This is a non argument that we should have long left behind as a community. This line of reasoning was rampant in the volc suspect, where people continuously conjured a boogeyman that volc was holding back. It didn't matter that volc had a billion sets it could use and the perfect kit to abuse tera and snowball, but people conjured up worse mons that volc was somehow stopping and that, if banned, the tier would reduce to chaos. From valiant to enamorus to rillaboom. And guess what, these are not mysteriously broken. This happened with kyurem as well where people fear mongered about how good rain would be without it, leading to a very narrow DNB except for the fact that rain got obliterated two weeks later. Womp womp. These are frankly not legitimate reasons, and the reason people use these arguments is because I suspect they think that arguments solely on the mon not being broken wouldn't be sufficient. Baloor legitimately talks about how annoying and powerful Waterpon is, but theorizes that if Kyurem goes, the meta will potentially adapt to Waterpon and we won't have to ban it. Fine, but that's fantasy, and Waterpon is powerful enough that it's very likely it'll still go anyways after. I agree with a Kyurem ban, but I don't agree with Baloor's line of reasoning behind it, as a means of keeping Waterpon to stop wish-pass Mola. If Alomomola, a mon that’s only A rank, is broken after a Waterpon ban, then it will be looked into. As well, frankly, the problem with this tier is not defensive, its offensive; there are a plethora of strong offensive threats and they limit defensive counterplay. There’s no point fear mongering about something when ideas on whether or not it will be broken or not after the case are pure fantasy and guesswork.

Congrats! You have discovered the default argument that people gravitate towards when they're unsure of how to proceed. Most people do think the meta is bad, but are too afraid of actually making meaningful changes as if the hypothetical aftermath would be worst instead of maybe better. That's why Darkrai looks so bannable right now because its ban would probably have the least impact on the tier. It theoretically helps with threat saturation while also not potentially allowing any other "cancerous" mons the time to shine in its absence. Not just Waterpon, honestly the biggest fear is a Dog/King-less meta. People don't actually want to adapt they want to stay comfy in a Meta they're used to, flaws and all, rather than try and actually make a better SV OU. Only budging when absolutely forced to.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Congrats! You have discovered the default argument that people gravitate towards when they're unsure of how to proceed. Most people do think the meta is bad, but are too afraid of actually making meaningful changes as if the hypothetical aftermath would be worst instead of maybe better. That's why Darkrai looks so bannable right now because its ban would probably have the least impact on the tier. It theoretically helps with threat saturation while also not potentially allowing any other "cancerous" mons the time to shine in its absence. Not just Waterpon, honestly the biggest fear is a Dog/King-less meta. People don't actually want to adapt they want to stay comfy in a Meta they're used to, flaws and all, rather than try and actually make a better SV OU. Only budging when absolutely forced to.

I think the most banworthy mons are the ones that would alter the meta in good ways if they went, cough waterpon and kyurem cough. That's why I hope to see them suspected first over darkrai as I think banning both of them would help the meta more than banning darkrai as not much changes if we ban darkrai to be honest as you said. Like I know darkrai is potentially broken but banning it doesn't help the meta as much as banning waterpon or kyurem in my opinion, even if its not the most common consensus as of right now.

 

[Avira]

Congrats! You have discovered the default argument that people gravitate towards when they're unsure of how to proceed. Most people do think the meta is bad, but are too afraid of actually making meaningful changes as if the hypothetical aftermath would be worst instead of maybe better.

Judging by the survey takers, you are wrong about most people finding the meta bad. Tour level and high ladder players don't seem to find this meta bad judging by Finchinator's hint earlier. It's mostly newer, less experienced players who find the meta complete dogshit, and Smogon caters to the first group.

And saying banning Darkrai would have the least impact on the tier is straight up wrong. Darkrai suffocates stall (NP Psyshock massacres it) and balance to a much bigger extent than Kyurem (who is ass vs stall) and Ogerpon-Wellspring do. It (Darkrai) impacts building way more.

 

[LOOR]

Judging by the survey takers, you are wrong about most people finding the meta bad. Tour level and high ladder players don't seem to find this meta bad judging by Finchinator's hint earlier. It's mostly newer, less experienced players who find the meta complete dogshit, and Smogon caters to the first group.

for the record, a slight improvement isnt really indicative of people not thinking the tier is bad. not arguing on behalf of other people, but there is still some general discontent about the tier within qualified players. obviously, there is plenty of people that enjoy the meta but just wanted to point this out.

i gave enjoyment a 5 and competitiveness a 4. the tier can be fun to fuck around with in unserious settings like ladder but from a competitive stand point there is a frustrating amount of things that can happen out of a players control that is hard to react to.

 

[Insolence]

Do you actually game at all, let alone even play Smogon tiers? 'Cause this take is very divorced from reality.

Noobs on low ladder of PokemonShowdown play offense for the most part since offense is what is considered fun. These are the types of players who accuse Smogon of protecting stall when Smogon bans a mon regardless of whether the ban negatively or positively impacts stall.

In League of Legends, people who start out playing for the first time generally aren't looking to play the support role, which is the most passive, reactive style, when they all want to beat the opponent in farming minions themselves and pushing their opponents out of the lane with their own play since playing support is not as fun.

I'm convinced you don't actually game at all, Big Chiken, because most people who play games are in it for fun and mashing buttons with offense are what in my experience most noobs consider fun.

His original point is true, though it could have been phrased better. I think you both make the mistake of conflating aggression with proactivity, they are related but the overall point is newer players play to not lose while more experienced players play to win. A lot of low ladder players will load up hyper offense teams but won't actually recognize their win cons or play towards them, they just swap in whatever has a good matchup into the opposing mon after theirs faints. You used League as an example, and it's not true there either. I played support at a decently high rank (master/gm) and it a very active role (far more than ADC imo), your positioning/spacing/ability usage are what defines the lane phase and you have to make plays during your power spikes to put your team in a favorable position (this isn't limited just to engage supports, the same fundamentals apply to enchanters). At lower ranks you usually don't need to make plays to win, you just capitalize on your opponent's mistakes, and the majority of the playerbase falls into this category. This is not to say that you can't have a responsive playstyle at a high level, it's just harder to play and less consistent as you rely on your opponent giving you an opening rather than creating one yourself. I'd give more examples but this isn't a League board, happy to elaborate more if you want.

To avoid this being a needless semantic argument, Gen 9 and Tera highly reward playing to win and making progress, even on hard stall. This is why we see this huge disconnect in the community. Even if the average player naturally gravitates towards offense, the current metagame is quite unfavorable to the way they prefer to pilot teams. I'm not a fan of the extremely fishy nature of the tier or the current metagame, but I understand why so many people like it.

 

[Avira]

for the record, a slight improvement isnt really indicative of people not thinking the tier is bad. not arguing on behalf of other people, but there is still some general discontent about the tier within qualified players. obviously, there is plenty of people that enjoy the meta but just wanted to point this out.

Sorry, I didn't mean to generalize, but Finchinator said there is a MARKED increase in the scores for enjoyment and competitiveness for the qualified playerbase, so I'm expecting an increase of 0.5 or higher for both. While there is some general discontent about the tier within the qualified demographic as you say, I don't think most actively find the meta bad but rather has some issues to sort out before it's great.

I know you've called out a portion of the playerbase for holding the meta hostage, but I don't think that is happening. Clearly, there are times when the community rallies around banning a Pokemon like with Archaludon and Volcarona. Just because only 50% of suspect tests have ended in a ban this generation doesn't mean there are players actively trying to impede progress. A lot of players just don't agree with what is wrong the tier or even agree that the tier is in a bad spot, and that's the reason for the results of Gen 9's suspect tests.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

It would be completely stupid to unban a mechanic as OP as sleep, which would imply the reinstatement of a complex ban in the form of a mod. Let's maintain consistency with smogon rules.

 

[Finchinator]

SV OU tiering survey results are up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/page-2#post-10157039

Enjoyment and competitiveness up noticably, Darkrai and Kyurem get most support, and some funny honorable mentions

 

[Avira]

His original point is true, though it could have been phrased better. I think you both make the mistake of conflating aggression with proactivity, they are related but the overall point is newer players play to not lose while more experienced players play to win. A lot of low ladder players will load up hyper offense teams but won't actually recognize their win cons or play towards them, they just swap in whatever has a good matchup into the opposing mon after theirs faints. You used League as an example, and it's not true there either. I played support at a decently high rank (master/gm) and it a very active role (far more than ADC imo), your positioning/spacing/ability usage are what defines the lane phase and you have to make plays during your power spikes to put your team in a favorable position (this isn't limited just to engage supports, the same fundamentals apply to enchanters). At lower ranks you usually don't need to make plays to win, you just capitalize on your opponent's mistakes, and the majority of the playerbase falls into this category. This is not to say that you can't have a responsive playstyle at a high level, it's just harder to play and less consistent as you rely on your opponent giving you an opening rather than creating one yourself. I'd give more examples but this isn't a League board, happy to elaborate more if you want.

To avoid this being a needless semantic argument, Gen 9 and Tera highly reward playing to win and making progress, even on hard stall. This is why we see this huge disconnect in the community. Even if the average player naturally gravitates towards offense, the current metagame is quite unfavorable to the way they prefer to pilot teams. I'm not a fan of the extremely fishy nature of the tier or the current metagame, but I understand why so many people like it.

His original point was not true. This is the guy who is telling everybody to play offense 'cause in his mind, offense = good, defense = bad. I know that playing offense doesn't necessarily mean that offense players are being proactive. I just engaged with Big Chiken on his terms and how he views things.

I didn't play League competitively given how long those games were, but I played support, and at low level casual matchmaking, half the time I was the only one playing proactively since there were so many people feeding the enemy team instead of thinking of how to engage properly, forcing me to focus my supporting on the most competent laner, so I know what you mean by support players having a proactive role.

I played before Riot Games added a snowball mechanic with enemy minions getting buffed if you had a level advantage, so games could take so freaking long. I know what you meant, but I am adamant Big Chiken did not argue the point you thought he did. To him, balance and stall is always playing reactively even though every playstyle can play proactively. If you've been following Big Chiken's posts, you'd know I am right about this.

 

[lucky333]

Ngl, wish Kyurem had a higher score but it is what it is.

My enjoyment of the meta is completely volatile, just like the meta itself. Sometimes I think it is very skill expressive+ tera can expand your horizon I have never thought possible before. So many new innovative things to discover and there are so many ways you can build your teams even if it is kinda hard to build a consistent one, not to mention I feel very rewarded for making the right reads. It sometimes really feels like a 10/10 meta.

And then there are times where it feels like the most dogshit meta I had ever the pleasure of experiencing. So many things where I feel are out of my control. Sometimes, I don't feel like I can do anything but guess and if I guess wrong, I just instantly lose.
Not to mention how high ladder was spammed with setup spamming teams like this https://pokepast.es/a09592171b0006a4 by many different people the last few months, maybe changing the tera type and a few moves to make the team unique, feeling like 1/10 meta. I guess that averages to a 5.5/10.


For me, the biggest issues right now are Kyurem, Zama and Oger.

I dont view Darkrai as much of a threat even though NP version are scary against fat but like even mons that Darkrai preys on like Dragapult or Glowking, carry status to cripple it. Idk, I wouldn't mind a suspect though and I can see where people are coming from(I am mostly playing offensive styled teams so maybe that is why I dont view him as problematic). Gambit and Bolt are non-issues even if I hate facing them.

If there is one thing I agree with Storm Zone, it is the complete disregard for Zamazenta as a threat just because it isn't as much of a restriction against fatter structures. If he would just be blanket physical check, it would be fine but he can turn this around into sweep and end games WHILE checking your stuff. I have mentioned it in one of my previous posts already but this thing takes way too many resources from you while always threatening a sweep. At the same time, it DOES kinda hinder physical setup spam a bit(yes only a bit. there are many adaptions going on right now, like dragon tail gouge, various tera ghosts and moon still shits on it if it sets up first) so I understand if you don't want to ban this mon since it is a "necessary evil" even though I really feel like this mon is unhealthy for the tier. I have stated my points of Zama's unhealthiness in one of my previous posts so I am not gonna repeat them again.

With that said even as someone who mostly plays offense, I think Kyurem is FUCKED UP. It's specs set is already very threatning, forcing switches very easily. And with that, its DD set can become game ending. There is also the fact that the DD sets have many different variations as well. Mixed sets, pure physical, scale shot, sub DD ect...all those can just end games so what do you do? if you assume specs and it is DD it can just end games outright and if you assume DD and it turns out to be specs, it might have just killed one of your key mons that you wanted to use to check sth else. This shit then just becomes a guessing game like I have mentioned above. Oh and btw many of Kyurem's sets fit into many different teams so good luck trying to discern the set from team preview. Here are some replays (not from me. I rarely lose to Kyurem's nowadays cause I know how fucked this mon is) where Kyurem just ends games just because the opponent "guessed" wrong.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144976762
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2139947625?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2142148502
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144073766?p2

Seriously, this mon feels uncompetitive as hell. Btw, if you lose respect for me just cause of my opinion of Kyurem, you have some serious issues. Peace out.

 

[SittinGamer]

I think for Oger specifically, the Alo fear is something of an overreaction. Wishpass is boring but there are other useful grass types which can threaten the fish like Meow, Other Ogers, Serp, and Rilla. Its not like we're in a world where Oger and Freeze Dry Kyurem is the end all be all to a meta one step away from a Balance-fest. Some of these mons, like Choice Band or Swords Dance Rilla, even have tools and Tera to attack complementary teammates like the Steel Birds.

 

[littensalt]

on the topic of mola resurging if waterpon gets banned(and reusing a previous post concept i never got around to making)

is there any chance you think volcanion would rise up in replacement for her?obviously it isnt nearly as good as a balancebreaker(and mon in general), but an actual mon to counter mola wishpass spam in a waterpon-less metagame with basically super-scald(although less pp and like. 5% less accuracy) still might have niche

in total i compiled (from a first glance) as many ou mons volcanion has a chance to beat, both depending on what moves volcanion has and the set(if heatran is tera grass and you have no sludge bomb youre cooked)

in total, meaning that volc has a great matchup into stall, and a good matchup into 5 nonstall mons, but with a lack of full prima counters(glowking hates substitute primarina), i think(keyword) volc could have a better niche in a waterpon-less metagame


as another discussion, if certain mons got banned what do you think could become WAY better?
for me, i think that
—> &
(great physical walls, but both have trouble taking on moon, sinistcha especially and unless youre already at +2, tera fly OR ice punch, okidogi struggles with keeping moon from sweeping)
—>
(explained above)

 

[Magcargo]

I think for Oger specifically, the Alo fear is something of an overreaction. Wishpass is boring but there are other useful grass types which can threaten the fish like Meow, Other Ogers, Serp, and Rilla. Its not like we're in a world where Oger and Freeze Dry Kyurem is the end all be all to a meta one step away from a Balance-fest. Some of these mons, like Choice Band or Swords Dance Rilla, even have tools and Tera to attack complementary teammates like the Steel Birds.

The issue is that nothing stopping WAOUUHHH from wishing then flipping the whole game (apart from Psy Noise users I guess), so what ends up happening is that everything winds up staying at full for most of the game, including all the breakers like Bolt, Kyurem, etc. Grass-types might hit it hard, but they don't stop it from using its slow Flip and healing all its buddies. Even if Kyu and Waterpon are banned, I'm pretty sure our buddy Mola will be causing issues with other mons like Ursaluna, which is an absolute menace with Wish / Slow pivot support and Trades really well against some HO and balance mons very easily at high health (which Mola will keep it at). It enables most other breakers like Bolt and Hoopa as well. Mola is arguably more oppressive for balance than it is for HO, tho I'm probably in the minority there.

That being said, Mola isn't necessarily invincible since it is easy for it to get overwhelmed by various factors like Hazards, 4MSS, strong Tera users, etc. so the above isn't a guarentee. More Water absorb mons like Volcanion, Gastro, etc. could rise up to limit it maybe, though I doubt it. Ironically, I also find it one of the better mons vs Wellspring and kyurem with Tech like Tera Fly Acrobatics or Mirror Coat lol - main benefit is that it can run better options if they are gone like Tickle for Gouging or Scald.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

on the topic of mola resurging if waterpon gets banned(and reusing a previous post concept i never got around to making)

is there any chance you think volcanion would rise up in replacement for her?obviously it isnt nearly as good as a balancebreaker(and mon in general), but an actual mon to counter mola wishpass spam in a waterpon-less metagame with basically super-scald(although less pp and like. 5% less accuracy) still might have niche

in total i compiled (from a first glance) as many ou mons volcanion has a chance to beat, both depending on what moves volcanion has and the set(if heatran is tera grass and you have no sludge bomb youre cooked)

View attachment 641384

in total, meaning that volc has a great matchup into stall, and a good matchup into 5 nonstall mons, but with a lack of full prima counters(glowking hates substitute primarina), i think(keyword) volc could have a better niche in a waterpon-less metagame


as another discussion, if certain mons got banned what do you think could become WAY better?
for me, i think that
—> &
(great physical walls, but both have trouble taking on moon, sinistcha especially and unless youre already at +2, tera fly OR ice punch, okidogi struggles with keeping moon from sweeping)
—>
(explained above)

Volcanion is another mon that is SO CLOSE to being amazingly strong. I feel like its seriously held back by Kyurem's earth power. Seriously, that thing has metric crazy amounts of bulk and the ability to trap so many mons and wear them down. Taunt/Trap/+2 is an amazing set of tools to deal with common stall mons.

I've used it to hilariously high success vs stall but it suffers immensely against Kyurem due to natural reasons, can't go Tera Grass or Flying but Tera Fairy works ok. It'd be an amazing Waterpon check if it could go Tera Poison but alas...

Okidogi and Sini are two mons I feel are very close to rising nicely. Mark my words, once some of the SPA attackers get out of the tier Okidogi is going to carve itself out a suitable niche

 

[Heatranator]

You know what’s in my head?? Dumb.

Yeah once again you just getting defensive because you are the noob that likes balance bc it easier to play proactively. Balance is cool. I don’t have personal attachments to styles. As I said it’s mark of unskilled/unwilling player to not adapt. Any way that’s another to the ignore list. Some people here so self righteous and rude jeebus

What? Okay, let me tell you, people have TRIED to adapt to said threats they think are broken. Don't you think everybody here has tried to deal with waterpon/kyurem/darkari, but then realised that they either need to 1. Use very otherwise bad mons (tinka is good, but it is not something you auto add to teams) or 2. make themselves worse against other threats. Tinkaton has literally been used because it is the one thing that can always defensively answer darkrai (and I don't even think darkrai is broken) so people have been using 'niche' mons.
Also I saw how now you are saying balance is play proactively, when you said before balance plays reactively. Just admit you were wrong, it would be easier for everybody without having this back and forth.
If anybody here is self righteous and rude, its you. All your posts have been "lol just adapt, play offense" which is extremely unhelpful. Have you considered that posting about how dumb people are is going to get a negative reaction and paint you as a bad person?

 

[Finchinator]

I have deleted a few messages for being rude -- you can disagree without being disrespectful!

Let's keep that in mind or I will have to escelate to infractions.

 

[RS25802580]

Ngl, wish Kyurem had a higher score but it is what it is.

My enjoyment of the meta is completely volatile, just like the meta itself. Sometimes I think it is very skill expressive+ tera can expand your horizon I have never thought possible before. So many new innovative things to discover and there are so many ways you can build your teams even if it is kinda hard to build a consistent one, not to mention I feel very rewarded for making the right reads. It sometimes really feels like a 10/10 meta.

And then there are times where it feels like the most dogshit meta I had ever the pleasure of experiencing. So many things where I feel are out of my control. Sometimes, I don't feel like I can do anything but guess and if I guess wrong, I just instantly lose.
Not to mention how high ladder was spammed with setup spamming teams like this https://pokepast.es/a09592171b0006a4 by many different people the last few months, maybe changing the tera type and a few moves to make the team unique, feeling like 1/10 meta. I guess that averages to a 5.5/10.


For me, the biggest issues right now are Kyurem, Zama and Oger.

I dont view Darkrai as much of a threat even though NP version are scary against fat but like even mons that Darkrai preys on like Dragapult or Glowking, carry status to cripple it. Idk, I wouldn't mind a suspect though and I can see where people are coming from(I am mostly playing offensive styled teams so maybe that is why I dont view him as problematic). Gambit and Bolt are non-issues even if I hate facing them.

If there is one thing I agree with Storm Zone, it is the complete disregard for Zamazenta as a threat just because it isn't as much of a restriction against fatter structures. If he would just be blanket physical check, it would be fine but he can turn this around into sweep and end games WHILE checking your stuff. I have mentioned it in one of my previous posts already but this thing takes way too many resources from you while always threatening a sweep. At the same time, it DOES kinda hinder physical setup spam a bit(yes only a bit. there are many adaptions going on right now, like dragon tail gouge, various tera ghosts and moon still shits on it if it sets up first) so I understand if you don't want to ban this mon since it is a "necessary evil" even though I really feel like this mon is unhealthy for the tier. I have stated my points of Zama's unhealthiness in one of my previous posts so I am not gonna repeat them again.

With that said even as someone who mostly plays offense, I think Kyurem is FUCKED UP. It's specs set is already very threatning, forcing switches very easily. And with that, its DD set can become game ending. There is also the fact that the DD sets have many different variations as well. Mixed sets, pure physical, scale shot, sub DD ect...all those can just end games so what do you do? if you assume specs and it is DD it can just end games outright and if you assume DD and it turns out to be specs, it might have just killed one of your key mons that you wanted to use to check sth else. This shit then just becomes a guessing game like I have mentioned above. Oh and btw many of Kyurem's sets fit into many different teams so good luck trying to discern the set from team preview. Here are some replays (not from me. I rarely lose to Kyurem's nowadays cause I know how fucked this mon is) where Kyurem just ends games just because the opponent "guessed" wrong.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144976762
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2139947625?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2142148502
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144073766?p2

Seriously, this mon feels uncompetitive as hell. Btw, if you lose respect for me just cause of my opinion of Kyurem, you have some serious issues. Peace out.

I seriously agree with you on Kyurem. It's the mixed sets that push it over the edge. DD Loaded Dice with Icicle Spear, Freeze Dry, and either Earth Power or Tera Ground Blast is nasty stuff. For what it's worth, it got the second-highest survey score after Darkrai so hopefully that amps up discussion a bit.

 

[waffle04]

I'm pretty glad that the general community views are pretty aligned with my views on the metagame. I haven't been playing as much recently but I try to sneak a few games in everyday at the mid 1800s so I'm somewhat still in the loop with the metagame.

I ended up voting 2 on everything but bolt, which was a 1, and zamazenta, which feels like 3 just because it's so consistent at cleaning out games but even thinking a little more on it I feel like I probably should have given it a 2. The metagame feels pretty good overall and all structures are appearing decently often and I'm not finding that many games are won through cheese unless said cheese is some absurd rng. My enjoyability was a 9 and competitiveness was 8 as a result.

As far as other suggestions, I meant to suggest the sun lion but I forgot about it but it's whatever just because the meta feels really good rn.

As far as innovations with the surveyed pokemon to keep an eye out for, adamant waterpon is what physical kyurem wishes it was, with stupid power and also just happens to outspeed +speed kyurem by 2 points. Taunt darkrai also seems underutilized ime, especially given that it lets it really abuses typical switch-ins like ting-lu, slowking-g and clod while offering a great way to shut down suicide leads.

This last one is just theorycrafting so it gets it's own paragraph but, for kyurem, I remembered that fling kyu-b was used in gen 8 ubers to muscle past ndm so, what if kyurem used fling to beat glowking? Boots kyurem causes a lot of trouble for balance builds by forcing a lot of pivoting around it's moves and glowking tends to be the answer to the special boots set. Since ice beam does 25-30%, this fling calc, 0 Atk Big Nugget Kyurem Fling (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Slowking-Galar: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%), is absolutely huge since it lets it beat it's most splashable counter 1v1 90-something% of the time. Obviously you lose the longevity of boots but a more aggressive structure could use this to bust glowking for zama or val, ghold takes 48-58 for bold and 78-92 for offensive which ensures both get knocked out after the switch or, at the very least, heavily crippled + losing the balloon before tossing kyurem. It doesn't hit anything else but what's important is it doesn't need to since beam/freeze/ep hits the rest of the tier.

 

[littensalt]

Okidogi and Sini are two mons I feel are very close to rising nicely. Mark my words, once some of the SPA attackers get out of the tier Okidogi is going to carve itself out a suitable niche

658Greninja’s post on it has really opened my eyes since last month, while it does struggle a bit right now when theres not any super over the top special attackers threatening you it can really get the ball rolling, being able to counter(assuming no big crits) 2/3 of the top mons and be able to bulk up your way into beating tusk really helps it, add it with any bit of hazards and its a good mon, mentioned this before but also doing good as an offensive counter to darkrai is great too

 

[Finchinator]

if you feel you are being bullied, PM me an example and i will happily discuss it with the user in question, too -- let me know, thanks