Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I'm being honest but at least in my eyes, there's very little point in writing in those Honorable Mentions spots on tiering surveys because they have never actually resulted in anything meaningful. What point is there in writing down Tera Blast, which should be banned, if it won't get any attention because everybody knows the Honorable Mentions spot isn't going to result in further attention. That's why those get such low percentage.
just to test this theory, maybe on the next survey it could be mandatory to at least write something there, even if it's "nothing" or just a space, and that way we'd get more accurate opinions by including the people who have problems with the meta but don't normally bother with write-ins. then we can compare the amount of write-in responses we get (aside from the "nothing" ones) for that to the number for this one and see if it really makes that much of a difference
 
The biggest draw of surveys is it takes very little time to fill them out, so ideally we do not implement anything that gives everyone even a very small roadblock to this for the majority who have nothing to add.
If people are gonna be pissy about writing down "Nothing" or "N/A", that's honestly their own problem lmao. Anyways I still stick by my original point and I like DaddyBuzzwole's idea to improve the surveys. Ban Kyurem
 
The biggest draw of surveys is it takes very little time to fill them out, so ideally we do not implement anything that gives everyone even a very small roadblock to this for the majority who have nothing to add.
understandable, but how much weight should we be putting on the opinions of people who would rather quit out of the whole survey than type one (1) extra character on a keyboard? that's a level of laziness and pettiness even i'm not capable of reaching. and the entire point of this would be to test if the majority has nothing to add or if they're just not bothering to voice it. i think it's the former but i certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of the latter
 
understandable, but how much weight should we be putting on the opinions of people who would rather quit out of the whole survey than type one (1) extra character on a keyboard? that's a level of laziness and pettiness even i'm not capable of reaching
My goal is to get people responding above all else, so probably some weight considering that being the priority
 
I was one of the two that advocated for a :magearna: retest (albeit with a stored power ban) and the recent discussion of :tinkaton: matching up well into the rest of the metagame has made me want to bring it it up here. I’m not quite sure what it would be like without stored power, I know it’s sets are very diverse and it was banned in gen8 with little to do with the move, but can a more offensive and powerful metagame deal with it better? It would be a fantastic answer into :darkrai: :kyurem: and a soft check into :zamazenta:, some of the biggest sore spots in the metagame at the moment. With :slowking-galar: being so popular I would assume only shift gear physical/mixed sets would be able to do anything about it. What exactly would make it so broken in the current gen if it didn’t have the funny “sit behind screens and win” button? Eager to hear from people who were more active in gen8 when mag was around or used :magearna: without stored power when it was legal
 
I was one of the two that advocated for a :magearna: retest (albeit with a stored power ban) and the recent discussion of :tinkaton: matching up well into the rest of the metagame has made me want to bring it it up here. I’m not quite sure what it would be like without stored power, I know it’s sets are very diverse and it was banned in gen8 with little to do with the move, but can a more offensive and powerful metagame deal with it better? It would be a fantastic answer into :darkrai: :kyurem: and a soft check into :zamazenta:, some of the biggest sore spots in the metagame at the moment. With :slowking-galar: being so popular I would assume only shift gear physical/mixed sets would be able to do anything about it. What exactly would make it so broken in the current gen if it didn’t have the funny “sit behind screens and win” button? Eager to hear from people who were more active in gen8 when mag was around or used :magearna: without stored power when it was legal

Its not just Stored Power. Specs Magearna with Trick alone 2HKOs almost everything and neutralizes with Trick the few Mons that can try to wall it. And thats just Specs, Magearna has 323232232 other sets. Imagine CM + Drain Kiss Hatterene (with +1 Defense from Grassy Seed) but even more powerful. By itself that set can easily be stopped, but not when you account for Specs and other sets.
In my opinion Stored Power wasn,t the move that broke Magearna, Trick (+ lack of Megas and Z Moves to absorb it) was.
 
I have two gripes with the original post.

First, CTC is framing a correlation as a causation. It’s a high effort post and argument but I want to point this out. In between these two timepoints, we see retrospectively that Volc was banned and “X, Y, and Z” also happened. There is no way to measure to what extent these meta changes would have still occurred if Volc stayed in the tier. There is always meta changes going on in the background that can lead to confounding. Again, you cannot easily make a causal claim from observational data.

Second, the whole basis of tiering policy is that one problematic mon is addressed at a time without regard to what checks what. Volc got a 76% ban vote and survey scores improved post-ban. Banning Volc was the right move.
yeah idk how anyone could consider the Volc ban a bad thing, it was such an organic growth of discontent up to the suspect test
 
y


why is that a near-full on UU team in OU?'
Also this is less Darkrai being broken and more the fact that flinch is stupid af mechanic (see Gen 4 SG Iron Head Jirachi)

Why does it matter? A good player can make lower tier pokemon work. Now I don't think Ttar or Exca are worth much but if someone can make them work for them, more power to em. And Moltres has been rising in viability and is likely rising to OU next month anyways.
 
Why does it matter? A good player can make lower tier pokemon work. Now I don't think Ttar or Exca are worth much but if someone can make them work for them, more power to em. And Moltres has been rising in viability and is likely rising to OU next month anyways.
a good player can make lower tier mons work, but when they are using 5 of them in a team they will always be at a disadvantage

honestly for pro-ban supporters that replay isnt helping at all, its just flinch being a dumb mechanic
 
honestly for pro-ban supporters that replay isnt helping at all, its just flinch being a dumb mechanic

The replay absolutely helps though? It shows how versatile Darkrai is and that even something like Ttar, which should be good into most of the time, was ruined by the Wisp variants. It really is a case of just how difficult it is to truly cover Darkrai enough to be safe into it consistently.

Dark Pulse flinching is dumb, but it's not just any pokemon that can abuse it. Darkrai is the kind of mon that, if your checks to it dip too low, run the risk of being flinched and bypassed which makes answering it even more of a task and punishing.
 
Dark Pulse flinching is dumb, but it's not just any pokemon that can abuse it. Darkrai is the kind of mon that, if your checks to it dip too low, run the risk of being flinched and bypassed which makes answering it even more of a task and punishing.
(im not exactly proban darkrai but not dnb darkrai either)
for reference, excadrill, an iron head abuser with a even HIGHER chance to flinch is never seen as a problem, mainly cuz it either requires you to support it with sand and in general just isnt bulky, darkrai reaches a max of 383 speed while excadrill only reaches a max of 302, and for weavile? a mon with the SAME base speed and a (albeit worse) flinching stab move in icicle crash?only base 120 attack instead of 135 like excadrill does, both of these have to choose a drawback in their design of a great speed stat but not as immediately threatening, or a great attack stat but not as fast in normal conditions
darkrai does not, it has the base speed of weavile of 125, and the base attack stat of excadrill for special attack of 135, combine that with its extra 90 bst compared to weavile(510) and 92 compared to excadrill(508) for extra bulk, and a better movepool, yeah it makes sense why people want it banned
 
The replay absolutely helps though? It shows how versatile Darkrai is and that even something like Ttar, which should be good into most of the time, was ruined by the Wisp variants. It really is a case of just how difficult it is to truly cover Darkrai enough to be safe into it consistently.

Dark Pulse flinching is dumb, but it's not just any pokemon that can abuse it. Darkrai is the kind of mon that, if your checks to it dip too low, run the risk of being flinched and bypassed which makes answering it even more of a task and punishing.
a.) ttar is a shit/niche at best mon in ou as it stands, and does not cover darkrai at all considering that already runs focus blast for gambit/other darks

b.) any form of rng side effect could be portrayed as that. shadow ball spdf drops in gen 8 from specs sball from pult can lose you the game on the spot, iron head flinches from all jirachis can cripple a team, ice beam freezes from kyurem can obviously break a team, fiery dance moth is a slot machine whether or not it takes 0-3 mons on a team, ogerpon cudgel crits, crits in general, icicle crashes from weavile, exca iron head, static zapdos, i dont think i need to keep going

rng is a part of the game and i think its a terrible point to be putting in as a darkrai exclusive, if you get dark pulse flinches 3x in a row, yeah you are going to probably lose the game, but so would you had weavile icicle crash flinched you to death (same speed tier btw), or what have you

also btw this isnt to say that rng is bad/good or that darkrai itself isnt broken (although i personally believe the way people portray it is super overblown)
 
I want to say a two things. First, I love that you are looking at Cornerstone. It is highly underrated. I have my own recent team with a Cornerstone. Great mon. Great showcase.

Second, I love your posts. But I cannot love them and vote the way you do it. So I skipped voting to give your post some love. I didn't care too much about this particular vote, so it was worth the sacrifice. Eventually, I to want to see you do that Wake set. This would have been my vote.
Thanks for support :D. I appreciate it. I will eventually change the voting method somehow. Do you have any ideas I could do?

ALSO MY BOY WALKING WAKE HAS FINALLY WON THE VOTE (I've wanted to do support/ utility wake for the longest time)
 
honestly for pro-ban supporters that replay isnt helping at all, its just flinch being a dumb mechanic
well we can't ban flinch. modding it out would be a step backwards after the progress we made this gen with sleep clause, and banning all flinch moves cuts an unacceptably deep hole into the game. so the best we can do is kill the most prominent abusers of flinch if they get out of hand. especially if something, oh i dunno, frequently packs a freeze move and sometimes carries thunder wave. same with freeze, we can't ban ice beam/blizzard/freeze-dry/powder snow or bring freeze clause mod into the modern ecosystem but we sure as hell can kick out the one (1) mon that can viably use freeze fishing as a real and effective strategy
 
When did I post that?

Umm... Oops!

Sometime I go to type something, change my mind, and the web still remembers what I wrote before. I'm assuming I did something whacky with the quotes and never caught it.

You may have uhh, done the wrong person. It's actually GummyRowlets that does them.
Though it is nice that you like the sets they do.

I must have moved the quotes around in a hurry and not realized it.
 
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a good player can make lower tier mons work, but when they are using 5 of them in a team they will always be at a disadvantage

honestly for pro-ban supporters that replay isnt helping at all, its just flinch being a dumb mechanic
Yes crazy that the mon that can similarly abuse that mechanic with very high speed and its stab to generate free turns is potentially pushed over the edge because of that mechanic.
 
Yes crazy that the mon that can similarly abuse that mechanic with very high speed and its stab to generate free turns is potentially pushed over the edge because of that mechanic.
my guy you could show me a replay of weavile icicle crash flinching like 4x in a row and say the same thing

look im not even trying to argue that darkrai is broken/not broken im just saying the replay was not a good example
 
my guy you could show me a replay of weavile icicle crash flinching like 4x in a row and say the same thing

look im not even trying to argue that darkrai is broken/not broken im just saying the replay was not a good example
This is true, however I think your claim lacks context; sure, gyarados can flinch with waterfall, but no one will look at that as being problematic because Gyarados sucks. However, if a mon is already being seen as pretty problematic like darkrai is (and not weavile - also note that icicle crash is almost purely worse then dark pulse as stab) then being able to generate free turns through secondary effects is absolutely damning; the replay and secondary effects can't be looked at outside of context. The luck in this replay is insane but it's still a valuable example of how Darkrai can abuse the secondary effects of its stabs (and frankly all of its attacks) to cheese through counterplay.
 
my guy you could show me a replay of weavile icicle crash flinching like 4x in a row and say the same thing

look im not even trying to argue that darkrai is broken/not broken im just saying the replay was not a good example

To be fair I can't speak on Weavile, but its brother Chien-Pao had a disgusting habit of going with Icicle Crash > Ice Spinner because of the ridiculous amount of flinches you can get with Icicle Crash. 400+ Speed in conjunction with a STAB move + 30% flinch and a high attack definitely added to its problem. If It didn't have Icicle Crash it would still be banned guaranteed, I think the point of the replay is just to show Darkrai can take many avenues to show how much mons it can take down with it before it dies. Took down 2 mons (Kyurem died to Spikes) + Wisped Ttar.
 
To be fair I can't speak on Weavile, but its brother Chien-Pao had a disgusting habit of going with Icicle Crash > Ice Spinner because of the ridiculous amount of flinches you can get with Icicle Crash. 400+ Speed in conjunction with a STAB move + 30% flinch and a high attack definitely added to its problem. If It didn't have Icicle Crash it would still be banned guaranteed, I think the point of the replay is just to show Darkrai can take many avenues to show how much mons it can take down with it before it dies. Took down 2 mons (Kyurem died to Spikes) + Wisped Ttar.
broken things get more rng procs. that's why volc always got flame body burns and fiery dance boosts but moltres and iron moth get their procs a normal amount, or why darkrai hypnosis used to hit so often, or why sneasler's dire claw rolled sleep so much more than the other statuses. this is a well-known, time-tested, objective scientific fact that i came up with just now
 
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